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-   -   Picking Teams in Elimination Rounds (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44986)

Tim Delles 06-03-2006 16:41

Re: Picking Teams in Elimination Rounds
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Koko Ed
I f the robot can't perform (as in it has very limited abilities, it's unrelaible, it's fragile or is just plain broken) they are stuck with it. They can try and fix it but even 71 wouldn't be able to fabricate a whole new robot in an hour. So they are virtually hobbled in my opinion.
Why would anyone want to be the #1 seed?

I wouldn't put it past them to be able to Ed. You do remember Nats in '04 where we had a Divisional Finalist was is that was made during practice day.

Lil' Lavery 06-03-2006 16:56

Re: Picking Teams in Elimination Rounds
 
Here's my issues with the new drafting system:
A)Doesn't the #1 deserve good picks?
Yes, your ranking has a ton to do with your schedule, but I have yet to see a #1 or #2 seed that didn't deserve to be on top. From what I hear, 25 was more or less hands down the best team in NJ. 1731 had an AMAZING bot, set the high score at the regional with 99, could play offense and defense etc.
The #1 seed worked for their spot, do they not deserve the fruits of their labor?

B)The #1 was not, and never will be, a guarantee to even survive the QF round. 447 toppled 3 #1 alliances last year as the #8 seed. I have seen countless times, where even if the #1 seed survives, they have been brutally close, gone to 3 matches, etc etc etc

C)The shallow regional depth
There are 5 Regionals (Pitt, Finger Lakes, Waterloo, Boilermaker, and Israel) with 30 or less teams. That leaves a VERY narrow pool of teams, some of which may be out of comission, for the #1 and #2 alliances to make their 2nd pick from. Numerous other regionals have between 31-34 teams.

D)Championship Depth
At each regional competition, there are always a few teams that clearly are a level above the rest. There is typically enough of these teams for them to be spread amognst 3-5 alliances and have some exciting elimination matches. At Championship, each division typically has 10-20 of this level of teams. This means a few alliance each year have a full set of 3 of these teams. But now, it is quite possible for the #1 and #2 seeded alliances to only have 1 or 2 of this caliber of team, putting them at a distinct disadvantage, especially considering the defensive gameplay shown thusfar (where if you can shut down many alliance's biggest threat, and at least hamper their 2nd biggest offensive threat, you will typically win). I agree that this is a FAR lesser issue than the depth at the smaller regionals.


I speak from expieriencing the bottom half of alliances at both off-season and regional competitions. In 2004, 116 was in the #7 alliance, we beat the #2 seed in 3 matches, but would lose in the semi-finals. At "York Summer Frenzy" 116 was in the #3 (of 4) alliances, we beat the #2 seed once again, but would lose in the finals. At "Capital Clash" 116 was in the #5 alliance, we beat the #3 seed, but would lose in the semi-finals.

Koko Ed 06-03-2006 16:58

Re: Picking Teams in Elimination Rounds
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Delles
I wouldn't put it past them to be able to Ed. You do remember Nats in '04 where we had a Divisional Finalist was is that was made during practice day.

That was with a whole day. Not an hour.

Ianworld 06-03-2006 17:30

Re: Picking Teams in Elimination Rounds
 
At pittsburgh you're going to have two options if you're the best team.

1. During the whole regional you fix every robot in the pits. With only 25 teams its feasible to make sure every robot is running. As long as they're all running you won't get a broken robot as a partner.

2. The second option is just throw the last couple matches. This is a lot easier I'd imagine than trying to fix every robot. I just can't see any team doing it or their partners going along with it.

I'd hope that the best teams in pittsburgh band together to make sure every single robot is in top working condition. With only 2 rookies there is a good chance most will already be in fine shape, not to mention the rookies seem to get better every year.

Tim Delles 06-03-2006 17:34

Re: Picking Teams in Elimination Rounds
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ianworld
At pittsburgh you're going to have two options if you're the best team.

1. During the whole regional you fix every robot in the pits. With only 25 teams its feasible to make sure every robot is running. As long as they're all running you won't get a broken robot as a partner.

2. The second option is just throw the last couple matches. This is a lot easier I'd imagine than trying to fix every robot. I just can't see any team doing it or their partners going along with it.

I'd hope that the best teams in pittsburgh band together to make sure every single robot is in top working condition. With only 2 rookies there is a good chance most will already be in fine shape, not to mention the rookies seem to get better every year.

The Second option is very ungracious and very unprofessional. Why go out and lose on purpose? Is that really what FIRST is about? You are showing no respect for your team or your allaince partners if you do this.

Figment 06-03-2006 19:28

Re: Picking Teams in Elimination Rounds
 
My whole family had a discussion on this topic today after watching some of the matches off of SOAP. We basically came to the following conclusions:

1.)This new draft system will definitely make for closer matches overall during the course of the elimination rounds and will probably be more exciting for people just spectating.

2.)It does severely cut down on the advantages of being the #1 seed, although it doesn't get rid of them entirely. I've seen matches where a really well done robot and a great partner were able to win even with a disabled 3rd robot. That being said, the #1 seed may well be able to pick a good enough 1st pick that they can put up a strong fight against a more balanced 8th seeded alliance, even if the 3rd robot is disabled (like what may happen in the low attendance regionals with only 25 or so robots).

I think that in the spirit of FIRST and gracious professionalism, this is a good choice of action. I'm sure that Dean, Woodie, Dave, and the rest of the team who decide these things would not have made this change without putting forth a lot of thought.

FIRST is about more than winning, its about a community effort. FIRST is about the relationships between the students, the teachers, the mentors, the sponsors, the parents, and everyone else involved. It is about learning and sharing that knowledge with others. It is about gracious professionalism; so if people are upset about this new draft because it means they may not win as much -- get over it -- FIRST isn't so concerned with winning(even though winning can be really really really fun), that is why the Chairman's Award isn't decided by the competition itself.

Anyway, thats my rant on why we should just go with it and do our best, if our bots are as good as we think, and our teams have it all together, then we have nothing to worry about with the new draft system; we'll still have great alliances and use all of our alliance partners to their full potential.

Good luck to all :) , I'll see you at UCF, Boston, and the Championship,
-Figment

Koko Ed 06-03-2006 19:49

Re: Picking Teams in Elimination Rounds
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Delles
The Second option is very ungracious and very unprofessional. Why go out and lose on purpose? Is that really what FIRST is about? You are showing no respect for your team or your allaince partners if you do this.

To me that's like the result of 2003 when team decided to take advantage of the system and make a deal withthe other alliance to not knock over their stacks so they both get maximum QP to keep thier position in the standings (or improve it).
Alot of people found that graciously unprofessional as well.

The Lucas 06-03-2006 20:57

Re: Picking Teams in Elimination Rounds
 
I think I would prefer the number one pick in a small regional like Pitt or FLR with a couple conditions:

1. My bot is clearly the best bot. This is not always the case with #1 seeds. Since the serpentine draft evens out the skill of the draft picks, the only real advantage you have is your own bot. If my bot really isn't the best bot, I might be better served as alliance 8 where I can get help from 2 bots about my skill level.

2. There are only a few other "very good" bots. Too many good bots will favor the lower seeds. Good scouting will come into play here as I choose the second best bot, who will likely be among the Top 8 (this should shift the Top 8 in my favor). We will have to have the offensive power to outscore all the other 3 bot Alliances since our other partner will likely have problems scoring.

3. At least 1 of the last few bots is "mobile". A mobile bot can get thru a match without routinely dieing or flipping itself. It might be able to play some decent D or get on the ramp. As long as it doesn't die in the defensive zone and force a healthy bot as a backbot, the alliance should be ok. Only 2 bots can play D anyway so if it can't then that is ok.

Keep in mind the Alliances are not going to be a good as those in larger regional no matter what draft method is used. The 2 best bots even without a 3rd alliance member might be able to beat any other 3 bot alliance. Last year in a Pitt semifinal, our bot got stuck in a goal autonomously and our partners 869 and 808 won the match anyway.

With both Pitt (25 teams) and Finger Lakes (30 teams) coming up this weekend, it should be a very exciting and educational weekend.

Nawaid Ladak 07-03-2006 13:04

Re: Picking Teams in Elimination Rounds
 
I came up with a question, when i was watching the instructions for the draft at VCU

lets say the #1 seed asks the #9 seed to join them in an allince, the #9 declines. then the #1 seed picks the #2 seed.

would the #9 seed move up to form the #8 allince, or are they out of the eliminations completly.

I did not see this explained in the rules. if it is in there, where is it.

btw. losing your last matches is unprofessional UNLESS.

a- your robot needs work to prepare for the eliminations

b- your trying to be friends with anouther team. for example, your opponent is the ranked for example: #9, #12, and #16. and they want to move up while you want to move down.

do you guys think this is right. bc i KNOW it will happen with other teams

soap108 07-03-2006 13:19

Re: Picking Teams in Elimination Rounds
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FreedomForce
I came up with a question, when i was watching the instructions for the draft at VCU

lets say the #1 seed asks the #9 seed to join them in an allince, the #9 declines. then the #1 seed picks the #2 seed.

would the #9 seed move up to form the #8 allince, or are they out of the eliminations completly.

I did not see this explained in the rules. if it is in there, where is it.

btw. losing your last matches is unprofessional UNLESS.

a- your robot needs work to prepare for the eliminations

b- your trying to be friends with anouther team. for example, your opponent is the ranked for example: #9, #12, and #16. and they want to move up while you want to move down.

do you guys think this is right. bc i KNOW it will happen with other teams


The 9th seed would still get to pick as the #8 alliance.

Lil' Lavery 07-03-2006 15:14

Re: Picking Teams in Elimination Rounds
 
Intentionally loosing a match is NEVER a professional thing to do. If your robot is in bad shape and need repairs, you may SKIP the match, but don't throw it for your two alliance partners.
If you're doing it to help the other alliance it's even worse. You're essentially trying to bulk your stock by giving them a higher pick. And if it's truely about
"friendship", you're making one on their alliance, and losing two on yours...

I have my problems with being a #1 seed at a small regional, but I would never plan to lose a match beforehand.

Koko Ed 09-03-2006 21:15

Re: Picking Teams in Elimination Rounds
 
There's Car Knack predicts well here's a Koko predicts:
The 5th to 8th seed will win more of the small regionals (30 teams or less) than the 1st to 4th seeds thanks to the serpentine drafting.

Koko Ed 26-03-2006 09:48

Re: Picking Teams in Elimination Rounds
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Koko Ed
There's Car Knack predicts well here's a Koko predicts:
The 5th to 8th seed will win more of the small regionals (30 teams or less) than the 1st to 4th seeds thanks to the serpentine drafting.

Well I was dead wrong on this one! :o
I underestimated the strength of the top robots at the regional are so much better than the other robots that they can even overcome having a lesser allaince partner if they ahve an equally dominant robot on thier side.
All the same I dislike the serpentine draft and I hope FIRST does away with it. THey don't keep every new thing they try (remember the 2003 cumalitive score playoff structure?)

Ken Streeter 26-03-2006 15:04

Re: Picking Teams in Elimination Rounds
 
Personally, I like the serpentine draft -- I think it still has a significant advantage for the #1 seed, but it forces the teams with the top few robots to work hard in scouting, too!

In some cases this year, the #1 seeds have not done as well as one might expect, often due to a much weaker third robot on the alliance. However, in general, it seems to me that the cause of this is that the choice for a third robot was poor, not that there wasn't a decent pick remaining!

Last year, the teams that were last to pick the third robot for their alliance (the 7th or 8th seeds, or maybe even a #12 seed that suddenly found themselves as captain of the #8 alliance) were often poorly prepared for having to make a first pick, much less a second pick, as they didn't have the "scouting depth" to make a good choice. Last year, I heard a fair bit of ridicule directed to alliances #7 or #8 when they were unable to make a decent second pick.

One would expect that the top seeds would be able to scout sufficiently effectively in order to make a good choice for a third robot to round out their alliance. However, in general, I haven't found this to be the case. By the time the last pick comes back around to the #1 seed, it is necessary for them to possibly be looking all the way down to the 23rd team on their "pick list"! If they didn't have 24 teams on their list, they're in trouble when they need to choose a third robot.

I found this to be exactly the case at yesterday's Boston Regional. (I was there to watch; our team wasn't competing.) Even though the #1 seeded alliance won, most of the top few seeds had real trouble making the choice of a third team to round out their alliance. With one exception, the top few seeds didn't have sufficiently deep scouting to make a 2nd pick -- they invited teams that were already on (or captaining!) another alliance, invited teams that weren't even at the regional, and eventually resorted to inviting teams that shouted out to them from the crowd. When a #1 seed doesn't have the scouting info to make a good 2nd pick for their team, is it any surprise that they end up with a third robot that doesn't contribute much to the alliance?

I agree that a fair number of lower-seeded alliances are upsetting higher-seeded alliances due to a weak third robot on the higher-seeded alliance. However, I think the cause of this isn't inherent in the serpentine draft, but is due to the higher-seeded alliances having made *poor choices* due to insufficient scouting depth. At yesterday's Boston Regional, the top seeds overlooked a few decent robots that were still available to be chosen.

I think it's only fair that the #1 seed should have to work not just on their robot, but on scouting, too, in order to come up with a winning alliance. If a lower seed has the scouting depth to make a much better choice for a third robot on their alliance, I think they've earned the possibility of upsetting the #1 alliance! Even if the #1 alliance has the two best robots in the tournament, another alliance with three decent bots stands a fighting chance of pulling off an upset. If the #1 alliance "did their homework" so that they could make a good 2nd pick, they're going to be extremely hard to beat.

Just my two cents...

BobC 26-03-2006 15:29

Re: Picking Teams in Elimination Rounds
 
If I had a say on this subject I would say keep the serpentine draft. After being in many fantasy sports leagues which most use the serpentine draft usually the middle of the pack teams ends up winning the championship. :cool:


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