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-   -   Rules that are [not] getting called at Regionals, the +s and -s (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45042)

Ethulin 05-03-2006 19:20

Rules that are [not] getting called at Regionals, the +s and -s
 
So, after just attending the PAC NW regional I would like to talk about what rules people are not seeing getting called, as well as rules you are seeing getting called and that you are impressed with.

This should not become a "flame the referees" thread. It should also not become a "we lost match #XX because of this crap call". It should be "I noticed that rule XX is routinely not being enforced in these situations".

If this thread turns out right it will not only be a useful thread to upcoming teams with regionals but maybe just maybe to the FIRST organization themselves.

Please also put what regional you noticed these things at.

So now I can step off the soap box and talk about the things I noticed.

The good:
PACNW: offsides is being called well

The bad:
PACNW: The remaining balls after the robots are loaded are not in corrals at beginning of match, they are in plastic bins behind player stations
PACNW: In the above situation the remaining balls are not evenly distributed, for example the HPs could have 8 in one bin and 2 in the other
PACNW: Some human players would step out of the alliance zone to throw and were not assessed any penalty
PACNW: 3in intrusion was given a 5pt penalty not a DQ as called for in G21

Observed (not sure good or bad):
Low amount of pining calls
Almost all bot interaction (ramming) was deemed acceptable

Cory 05-03-2006 19:25

Re: Rules that are [not] getting called at Regionals, the +s and -s
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethulin
The good:
PACNW: 3in Intrusion is being called well

The 3 inch intrusion was actually called completely wrong, in the instances I witnessed.

I saw teams getting 5 point penalties, and not DQ's like <G21> calls for.

Koko Ed 05-03-2006 19:29

Re: Rules that are [not] getting called at Regionals, the +s and -s
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethulin

This should not become a "flame the referees" thread. It should also not become a "we lost match #XX because of this crap call". It should be "I noticed that rule XX is routinely not being enforced in these situations".

If this thread turns out right it will not only be a useful thread to upcoming teams with regionals but maybe just maybe to the FIRST organization themselves.

Well you may not want it to become that but there's a pretty good chance it will, so I would recommend having it moderated so it doesn't become that kind of thread.
The refs are only human and human volunteers at that. I don't want them feeling persecuted and then we have a shortage at competitions because they are tired of being bashed by everyone.

Ethulin 05-03-2006 19:29

Re: Rules that are [not] getting called at Regionals, the +s and -s
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory
The 3 inch intrusion was actually called completely wrong, in the instances I witnessed.

I saw teams getting 5 point penalties, and not DQ's like <G21> calls for.

After re-reading G21 you are %100 correct. I am changing my post above. When you saw it called incorrectlf Cory was it that they went 3in in and were NOT called or that they were called when they did not go 3in in?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koko Ed
Well you may not want it to become that but there's a pretty good chance it will, so I would recommend having it moderated so it doesn't become that kind of thread.
The refs are only human and human volunteers at that. I don't want them feeling persecuted and then we have a shortage at competitions because they are tired of being bashed by everyone.

I agree. I think however, that this thread should remain upon untill such time as some one DOES harp on a specific referee, a specific call etc. Lets see if CD can remain mature and GP on their own. If we can't I think it should become moderated.

Cory 05-03-2006 19:32

Re: Rules that are [not] getting called at Regionals, the +s and -s
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethulin
After re-reading G21 you are %100 correct. I am changing my post above. When you saw it called incorrectlf Cory was it that they went 3in in and were NOT called or that they were called when they did not go 3in in?

The head ref would state that they had gone into the goal more than 3", and as such were receiving a 5 pt penalty.

I didn't get to see many matches other than my own team's, and the matches immediately prior/after my own, but I saw this happen at least 2-3 times. Whether or not it was called this way all weekend, I can't say.

Ethulin 05-03-2006 19:33

Re: Rules that are [not] getting called at Regionals, the +s and -s
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory
The head ref would state that they had gone into the goal more than 3", and as such were receiving a 5 pt penalty.

I didn't get to see many matches other than my own team's, and the matches immediately prior/after my own, but I saw this happen at least 2-3 times. Whether or not it was called this way all weekend, I can't say.

Ok, I get what you are saying. I thought you meant that not only were they getting the penalty wrong the call was wrong as well. But now I understand. And yes, it was called like this all weekend.

Jeff Rodriguez 05-03-2006 20:04

Re: Rules that are [not] getting called at Regionals, the +s and -s
 
At BAE, the refs were calling G21 correctly. In fact, the refs at BAE did a great job. There weren't any controversial calls that I can remember.
Everything was being called accurately. Granted, I wasn't watching Human players, I was watching robots.

Madison 05-03-2006 20:31

Re: Rules that are [not] getting called at Regionals, the +s and -s
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethulin

The good:
PACNW: offsides is being called well

Rule G26 states that a 5-pt. penalty is to be assessed for every 5 seconds that a robot remains off sides. Off sides penalties were not ever assessed as such to my knowledge. We made the referrees aware of how that rule reads midday on Friday and they acknowledged that they were in error, but never corrected that error procedurally -- presumably to maintain continuity and fairness to all teams.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koko Ed
Well you may not want it to become that but there's a pretty good chance it will, so I would recommend having it moderated so it doesn't become that kind of thread.

We'll take care of things if it comes to that. Let's give people the benefit of the doubt, please.

Wetzel 05-03-2006 20:37

Re: Rules that are [not] getting called at Regionals, the +s and -s
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethulin
The bad:
PACNW: The remaining balls after the robots are loaded are not in corrals at beginning of match, they are in plastic bins behind player stations
PACNW: In the above situation the remaining balls are not evenly distributed, for example the HPs could have 8 in one bin and 2 in the other

We did the same thing at VCU. We found that when the balls moved towards the entrance of the goal, or backwards from normal scoring direction, they would count as multiple balls. When the corral got to just under 20 balls they would be backed up enough to usually cause counting errors so we had field reset volunteers working to try and keep the number of balls in the corral low to prevent miscounting.

Related to that, I saw a few times where a human player would gesture and point at something on the field and stick an arm into the view of the camera. Should have been a DQ by G39.

Wetzel

BoyWithCape195 05-03-2006 20:41

Re: Rules that are [not] getting called at Regionals, the +s and -s
 
I noticed that at BAE, many shooters where not shielded anywhere close to what was specified in Team Update # 11 or <S03>. Any one know if there was a reason for this, or was it just the opinion of the robot inspectors?

Ken Loyd 05-03-2006 20:47

Re: Rules that are [not] getting called at Regionals, the +s and -s
 
[quote=M. Krass]Rule G26 states that a 5-pt. penalty is to be assessed for every 5 seconds that a robot remains off sides.

In Portland on Saturday the head ref gave a great explanation of Rule 26. He even went so far as to suggest a remedy. If an alliance member is unable to move, some one should push the robot on sides or have another of your robots stay onsides. A "tip of the hat" to the refs in Portland! I felt they did a great job.

Ken

Steve W 05-03-2006 20:47

Re: Rules that are [not] getting called at Regionals, the +s and -s
 
i was at NJ and the problem was not with the refs. I believe that they did a great job (yeah even you Stu). The rules that I saw not called were on inspections. <R11,R12> were not enforced. The flag rule was not enforced. The bumper rules were not enforced.

It seems that they were very liberal on all of these rules. I measured one bumper that started 6 1/2" from the floor. There was another that cleared the bumpers on the other bots. I hope that this is standard throughout all regionals. If not then there will be a lot of upset teams that attend second regionals.

I did not see the testing about shooter speed but I was told that it was done. I did however see robots shoot from center field and the ball was going high or rising as it got to the goal. There is nothing in place to enforce ball speed. Even when testing there is no surety that they are running at max speed. As you know, there are no speeders on the streets until there is a radar gun to catch them. If baseballs can be clocked at 110 MPH then why not a Poof ball?

Morgan Gillespie 05-03-2006 21:30

Re: Rules that are [not] getting called at Regionals, the +s and -s
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethulin
PACNW: Some human players would step out of the alliance zone to throw and were not assessed any penalty

We were told this rule would not be enforced and people who broke them would only be given a warning. I didn't see anyone take advantage of that so it was all fine.

BoyWithCape195 05-03-2006 21:33

Re: Rules that are [not] getting called at Regionals, the +s and -s
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercury Rising
We were told this rule would not be enforced and people who broke them would only be given a warning. I didn't see anyone take advantage of that so it was all fine.

At BAE, this rule was enforced excessively, I heard many calls on this. The only problem i noticed on Saturday was an incursion missed by a referee, two volunteers caught it and informed said referee.

Kim Masi 05-03-2006 21:48

Re: Rules that are [not] getting called at Regionals, the +s and -s
 
I think the refs at BAE in NH did an awesome job with the penalties, they were very strict on human players and the 3" rule. However, I did notice the lack of ramming penalties. Last year, there were lots of penalties for ramming and contact, but I don't think I saw it called once all day Saturday. Also, there were a couple of robots that had an illegal shooter, but were still allowed to compete. They had their shooter completely exposed, with their wheel spinning at high velocities with no shielding. Personally, I think this is really dangerous, and something should have been done.


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