This is a brutal game.
 

Does anyone else agree? We took some of the most incredible hits with no penalties whatsoever on the offenders. I like a little bit of fighting in FIRST games, but it's getting pretty brutal out there. We severely cracked and bent the faceplate of a small CIM motor. Somehow wrecked a big CIM motor (we think due to somebody repeatedly hitting us when we were already flipped over.) We bent 1x1x1/8" wall box tubing beyond belief.

And remember, this is coming from the person who said "If you don't like contact, your robot is not built well enough" And I still think our robot is built well enough.

Is this game being played rough at your regionals? Are ramming or destructional strategy penalties being given? I haven't seen a single one.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

Does your team have bumpers? I think FIRST added the bumper idea so that robots can better protect themselves from contact. Granted they are optional, but it was just another option that teams have to keep their robot from being damaged.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

It is definitely more rough-and-tumble than last year, but I loved playing and loved watching it. Maybe Portland was "nicer" than some other regionals, but I saw a lot of shoving, nudging, and leaning, but only a very few cases of brutal ramming. Frankly, I saw more high-speed ramming last year than this, and last year no one had big, cushy bumpers to protect themselves. I want to run this game again -- I wish there were off-season events in the northwest.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

Our bot had aluminum square tubing as a crash bar protecting our front roller and we bent 3 of them. We tried extruded fiberglass, but it bent too easily (we destroyed our bottom roller and it prevented us from being fully operational for 2 rounds until we could get it fixed), and then we put some angled steel across the front, and even bent that. Tis a physical game.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

Most definitely this is the roughest FIRST games ever and I'm sure they'll be alot of people screaming "(The Robot Competition That Shall Not Be Named)" but it's not like that at all. The goal of The Robot Competition That Shall Not Be Named is to absolutely destroy the opponent and nothing else. The rough play is due to very tough defense to keep good offensive bot from scoring. If all they do is defense they can still lose if they slip up and the offensive bots can score (that's what happened to us at FLR when 229 got away and put three balls in late). Good defense can help you win but you still have to score somehow.
There's rough play in hockey but no one starts calling it Ultimate Fighting because things get rough. Let's not go too crazy here neither.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

The front of our bot was a 4x4 piece of 6061T6 with 3/16" walls. Strangely, it went undamaged. The piece of Kitbot chassis rail across the back opening (where our ball sweeper is installed) was bent slightly, though. The game certainly rewarded robust construction and the bumpers were a huge help (although we left them off the front of our bot to make ramp climbing easier).

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

You should start one.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

Yeah, thought of that. We could use my uncle's barn, and my aunt can sew costumes!

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

It is not too bad last year in Long Island our bot was ramed from about 15 feet twice until we fliped nothing was ever called.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

I have been to both BAE and UTC and I don't think the robot interaction too hard. The bumpers are a must have.
IMHO the referees are calling great matches. If there is too much ramming or excessive pinning it's being called.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

Maybe it's just because I come from a bygone era of FIRST, but I don't really think that this year's competition is more violent than anything I've seen in the past. 2002, in particular, continues to represent a high water wark of physical robot interaction in my experience and Aim High stands no chance of approaching it.

Our robot was battered and bruised considerably during the event, though it never once stopped functioning. We saw bent omniwheels, repeatedly bent 3/16" Al plate, sheared 1/4" stainless steel bolts, and our entire chassis was nearly cracked in half. I designed for less contact than the machine saw in competition, but it was by no means the worst damage I've seen to a FIRST machine. We fixed it and moved on.

Strategically, we were focused on scoring and probably saw less contact with other machines overall than did some of our alliance partners. We were never tasked with playing defense, though our drivers certainly didn't avoid a fight, either.

To me, it seems on par with previous years and nowhere near as bad as it has been in the past -- not that I felt 2002's level of contact was excessive, mind you -- and imagine there are some rather easily ratified solutions for the increased celebrity the topic has seen recently.

Obviously, there are more people participating now than ever before and so there are more voices crying about even the most inconsequential of topics. Also, I'd not be surprised to learn that as FIRST continues to grow and veteran teams vanish from the landscape, the median level of experience across all FIRST teams is decreasing. As a result, we're likely to continue seeing machines that are designed by teams with less practical experience in the FIRST arena.

As an aside, I've given some thought to starting a proper off-season event in the Seattle region. Because I like to do things bigger and better than anyone else when I can, I've been trying to find a venue outside a school gymnasium. Pacific Science Center is a leading candidate in my mind, but I think there's some concern in that the Ackerley Family Gallery exhibit space is entirely enclosed in glass :)

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

We were one of the robots at the florida regional who focused mainly on defense. This wasn't our original strategy, we had designed and built a shooter independant of the harvesting system, but beacuse of weight issues we had to scrap it. Onto the point - The threat of the opposing alliance having a robot that can easily punch 5+ balls into the center goal is enough to bring about a little push-and-shove to knock them off target. We may have been too brutal at times in the eyes of other teams, but for the most part, a lot of the shoving we did with our robot was needed to help win the match. One thing that was nice about having a very robust frame for this year's game was if a team on your alliance could score, but even the slightest hit would ruin their chances, you could play bodyguard for them. A little more of a feeling of teamwork came from that kind of play... Overall, yes this was a more brutal game, but I was happy to see much less flipping than I noticed last year.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

Portland was most likely just as rough as other regionals. I believe that the reason it's more rough is due to the time factor. With short scoring periods, a simple 10 seconds of time for a reliable top goal shooter is enough to seal a game. Therefore teams are realizing that they need to have active and constant defense, otherwise the other team can win without contest.

As to robots being damaged, we personally experienced this in the finals. Our bot had flipped (the first and only time it flipped) near the other team's ramp, and they were going to try and climb their ramp, However, the only way that they could do that was to move our bot. However, their choice of moving methods wasn't the nicest. (they repeatedly ramed us, not pushed) The result of this was a breaking of two welds, and a shearing of multiple bolts. I now point out that this was while we were ON THE GROUND.

I'm not complaining about the amount of contact, I actually like how it requires us to design stronger bots. FIRST is giving us more challenges every year, and it seems that this is one of those.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

You guys have pics of the damage? Sounds like its pretty brutal out there?

Kirk

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

I would reccomend starting out small and grow from there. The main goal is to get the off season started ( and do it early so you can get enough teams to come). You can seek bigger venues afterwards (theough cost would then become a concern as well. High school gyms are usually free. Professional venues are not).

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

It's a tough, defense-oriented game with lots of pushing, and due to high shooters causing high COGs, lots of tipping. Since there's a period devoted entirely to defense, it's only to be expected that tough - occasionally excessive, but I didn't see that too much at Pitt - defense will be a norm.

I personally love the interaction this game provides. There are so many aspects to focus on, and defense is highlighted more this year than last year. I can't speak for any other year since this is only my team's second year in FIRST, but I love the pushing and shoving.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

I'm not sure, but doesn't fiberglass just shatter?

We also had destroyed a small cim motor from competition and tweaked our chassis. The front 1/8" 6061 T6 (I believe) aluminum tubing that protected the collector got bent and that tweaked well...the rest of the chassis. It had also made the chain for our collector lose its tension and become loose enough to come off during a match. Besides that, the rest of the support members weren't square any more and so pretty much, all in all, our bot was tweaked, but still could drive and collect, so I'm happy for the most part.:) Nothing really all that major.

The defensive plays of hitting other robots and pushing them around, whether it be around the field or even on the ramp, are all legitimate plays to prevent robots from getting balls into the center or corner goals. I remember during the semifinals and finals, the game play was getting pretty rough and there were a lot of parts that teams had been dropping around the field like sidepanels and even chain. I heard about a team losing a motor.

There weren't any penalties being given at BAE for unnecessary roughness, but there is one new rule in update #15 about hitting robots while they are dumping balls into the corner goals.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

My answer to this question is plain and simple no. The defense seen is this game is something that has been missing for a long long time. Defense is something you have to be ready for, and no matter how tough your robot is you are going to take some hits, your robot is going to get hurt. I think that FIRST went out of their way this year to implore teams to build tough robots, with bumpers, etc, etc. I think that no secret was made of the fact that this was going to be a rougher game. I mean they created a dynamic which encourages teams to play defense (thank you FIRST). The matches (especially finals) I've witnessed this year are some of the best I have seen since the pre-2000 era largely because teams are playing defense this year and they can do so without fear of 30 point penalty, a DQ, or some controversy for flipping. I also think that truly blatant things are getting called for the most part I have witnessed some well founded penalties for teams that basically ram another robot from the other side of the field these penalties are justified as far as I am concerned. Being and old-schooler I am glad to see a return to a dynamic where defense is excepted and can again be a viable strategy.

To this end I'll just offer a little advice. First be prepared for defense, if you have a great robot and a great shooter you are going to get d'ed up hard...be ready for it. Also be weary of all offensive strategies. I saw a few alliances at UTC who put together three stellar shooters. They lost to an alliance with really defensive style of play. Proving that perhaps in this year's game "the best offense is a good defense" is not necessarily the case. Lastly loosing to a defensive alliance is a different experience. It stings a little more because with an offensive loss it was for the most part under your control. In the case of loosing because you got d'ed up by two robots that is perhaps something you have less control over. I think it is a different feeling.

So in conclusion I love the new style of play, be ready, and GOOD LUCK!!!

Justin

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

Quote
Interesting point on the older teams vanishing from the landscape. While I'm on a veteran team now, the older engineers aren't doing the program anymore, but the younger engineers now are FIRST alumni from 5-6 years ago. On this years machine a large portion of the design and integration was handled by FIRST alumni, who were on our team back when they were in High school. I myself was on this team(177) as a high schooler(96-99) and am back when i started working for the parent company again, and there are at least 3 others as well in the same situation.

To get somewhere and make a point, I'm curious how many of the FIRST 'experience' is actually now coming from people who are alumni of the student portion. So as some of the older teams vanish, the actual students come back as mentors with all the experience they had for the rookie teams, giving stronger rookie teams. Just a thought from what I see on our team.

As to rough play we definitely planned on this being a vicious game and built towards it accordingly making sure we had a solid frame that wouldn't bend/break easily which was a mistake made once wayyy back. The thing is though making a rugged frame requires a lot of initial thought as to where to put the wheels, the mounts, material, how too keep the weight in the right positions and we had to re-do parts 3-4 times in some places in order to get it right when we noticed a problem. It definitely paid off but this is a rough game, but that might be what makes it exciting as people off the street, while not understanding all the rules, can always appreciate the game from heavy hits to balls flying all over when a robot is hit while shooting.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

Remember this---

Re: Bumpers vs Frame which is better
I see bumpers as a failure point. If they rip or fall off or something, they can get caught in your drive system.

I guess you should have used the bumpers... hmmm.

WC

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

Yes, it does shatter, but first it bends and deflects quite a ways, and this was the problem...we had some bolts that got into the roller when the fiberglass bar deflected too far.



the center of the three bars is 1/8" x 1" steel angle iron. The two aluminum pieces of square tubing had been straightened and then bent again.

The roller problem was mostly due to our crash diet because of a lack of a weight budget, we cut the slots to lose weight and that probably contributed the failure....that's life as a rookie team, I suppose.

Fixing this kind of damage is a nice challenge, so I'm not complaining!

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

Huh. Maybe it's because we always seemed to be on the forceful side of the matches, but we didn't see too much damage. I would hope we didn't cause as much damage as is being described. Our worst problem was the poof balls- they would get jammed in our #25 chain, and it would literally *tear* the links apart- something I'd never seen before, even in rough matches. We suffed from some dents and such, but no more than usual. Maybe someone from the Pittsburgh regional could comment on the play there?

*For once, loose tolerance and beefy stuff can help you out!

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

YES, YES, YES -
I won't go into rationalizing one way or the other because that is not what you asked in the thread, but I will advise ALL teams yet to play in a match, BRING the maximum allowed amount of material to repair your machines.

Even with as robust of a design that you think you may have, with what I've seen, many robots will need massive repairs (drive trains in particular).
The forces being applied when being hit on the side of your wheels WILL bend many of the axles, frames, mounting brackets, wheels, ect.

This game is BRUTAL and its NOT just from impact loads, I fret more about the damage being incurred from the continual pushing from the side of the machines.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

There is definitely a lot of defense this year but I don't think there is any more than last year. Actually, on our robot, nothing huge has broken so far. A few things here and there but they took only about 5 minutes to fix. Last year, every match we would come off with something worse broken.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

Not to sway too far off topic but does it seem like there a lot more bots flipping this year or is it just me?

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

It's kind of off-topic (my bad), but it does touch on one design decision made by most teams I saw in Portland and here on CD, too. The ball collectors were usually made by putting a roller on the end of the 'bot, either with a conveyor belt attached or not. Since the roller (or belt) needed to push against something, there was either another roller, another belt, or a plate of some kind on the inside edge to provide pressure for the ball to be moved upwards.

After building three (3) prototype collectors we put the roller on the inside, and a pressure bar on the outside of the robot. The ball squeezes under the bar, which is set about 5.5 inches above the floor, and then is trapped between the conveyor belt on the inside and a pair of vertical rails at the end of the bot. The ball rides up the rails, and is then deflected into the hopper by a curved piece of Lexan. This kept all the delicate spinning bits on the inside and only a strong and easily-replaced pressure bar on the outside. Our pressure bar was bent, but the collector would still have worked (if we had a hopper, which is another story altogether).

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

Probably because everyone built their robots so tall.
We purposely built our robot short because we didn't want to tip over (and we didn't). I don't understand why everyone is having a fit over thier robot tipping over when they purposely built a tall robot in a physical game. Obviously they valued being able to shoot high over staying upright and underestimated the physical nature of the game.
At the championship it's only going to get tougher.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

From what I saw behind the glass at Florida, it's a very physical game. I didn't see much ramming in the truest sense, but there was lots of bumping and pushing.

Be prepared to get hit. Expect whacks from the other side of the field (as in starting space to starting space). And whatever you do, protect your vitals.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

I know the carnage in our robot wasnt nearly as bad as some that i have read...
but we left one match with a busted electronics protecteion plate (which we fixed with tape at the last minute). We also left another match with a torn bumper (which we fixed with 2 band aids).
and then our outer protective netting got progressively worse throught the 'battles', and by the end of the finals we had over 4 gaping holes in that netting. it was pretty awful.

sorry i have no pictures... i neglected to bring my camera.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

This definitely IS a brutal game, without a question! The defensive aspect of the game is wonderful and keeps the matches extremely interesting.

However, this is quite a bit of what I would consider "unnecessary roughness" going on. When a team is getting pushed into the corner (while not trying to score) and gets wedged up on the ramp and a ball and is then repeatedly rammed after losing mobility, that seems excessive to me. When a robot has lost its drive system and obviously has no balls in its posession or any intention of gathering any and a defensive bot flies across the length of the field to ram that incapacitated bot, that seems excessive to me.

There are clearly defined rules for that sort of thing that are not being enforced. The quick turnaround time between matches (at least in the smaller regionals) leaves little time for major repairs. Yes, robots should have been built a bit more robust this year than in the past, but there have been some pretty clear examples in this thread of robust parts being rendered useless.

Kev

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

I don't see the game as being brutal. High speed ramming is against the rules and should be penalized, but you should expect lots of pushing and bumping. Defense has a high value in this game and a shooter that can get accurate shots off while the robot is engaged in pushing and shoving has a high value.

Some robots are designed to collect a large number of balls, climb the platform, and then unload these balls into the three point goal with a high shooter. There is only one defense against this and it requires pushing and shoving from a very precarious perch.

FIRST did a fantastic job in designing the game and the robot rules this year. Except in very extenuating circumstances the bumpers define the contact point between robots and any team that decided not to use bumpers made a mistake both in terms of protection and in their robot weight.

I would like to congratuate FIRST for their production of the best game ever, and in their careful attention to robot rules that limit damage to robots while allowing a vigorous defensive game strategy.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

Uh oh.. I don't like the way this is sounding. Our robot has no bumpers and bumpers are a must?? I think I may have that problem worked out though. Strategically speaking though. Don't expect 648 to go for the ramp at all. I like rough play... but what I saw this weekend on webcast was just absurd. But it's the game. Can't argue with that. I'm ready for whatever comes our way.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

Sorry but I would have to disagree on the "best game ever" comment - in fact, I don't care for it much at all compared to other years games. This opinion, like all others, will vary greatly I'm sure.

I think there was a major mistake this year in forcing defense into the game by creating a time period where ramming, pushing , pinning, and tipping is disquised as "defensive interaction". Can't anyone figure out a game where passive defense is the primary method of territorial defending, instead of a big pushing match? Drivers don't seem to stop at a little bump anymore, they don't seem happy unless they push a team 4,5, 6 feet across the carpet, often into the sidewalls, ramp walls, or ramp.

Yes, justification can be rationalized - we all can read the rules and see what it says. My point is that it appears to me that some of the pushing has intent to do damage, as I don't see any other reason for pushing robots that don't even have a ball in them to score low OR high? I'm not sure what they are defending most of the time. It just looks like "everyone else is doing it , so it must be the thing to do".
In my opinion, Defensive strategies are welcome as legitimate when applied properly, but this game allows the application of defensive tactics to be very brutal and easily overdone.

All in all, it reminds me more of Battlebots, than the standard FIRST competitions that I remember.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

Well we have not played yet, but we made trip to the NJ Regional and watched the Florida regional on the web.

We prepared for a rough game this year and I'm glad we did.

Although it seems to me that the situation is what makes this game rough, not the players. Plenty of High CG bots playing defense and trying to climb a ramp makes for lots of mayhem.

We are looking forward to playing this year's game.

Good luck to everyone in the weeks ahead!

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

Slight damage from playing defense at UTC our H- Frame bent at the bottom a little. It didn't affect our ability to pick up balls but it looks kind of funky.

http://static.flickr.com/56/111398204_07f9dc4d23_o.jpg

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

this kind of game gets the crowd going. i know that we constantly had teams blatantly trying to flip us on our back. that is why you need good traction :yikes:

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

Not only is it just another part of the game, but it definatley makes it more exciting. NOt cheesy exciting like get ready for some robto smashing and then yous ee two robts tap eachother and thats it. This is robotis tipping over, smashing, its more fun for the crowd and for tv viewers.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

well, what can you expect when you've got bots more intertwined than ever, 5 on a side at a time, entire periods defined for pure defense (of which much includes ramming and shoving other bots to prevent them from shooting in)?
i think its awesome action (unless we're the victims of course, then there are gasps and groans)

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

This year's game does have considerably more defense and ramming than the past. I don't think this is a bad thing though; alot of the more exciting matches the past 2 years have come when we've had to do some defense along with scoring.

Bumpers are a savior this year; the most damage we sustained during the whole competition was during a practice match without bumpers, where a robot hit us head on and shifted our conveyor belt motor, causing us to lose the chain on it, as well as breaking half of the conveyor belt's support and rendering it completely useless. Bumpers prevented any major damage happening again.

This year is a defensive game, but please teams don't get too into it; we had an opposing team that popped up on their back wheels when driving full speed towards us and crashed full speed into our conveyor belt, at least 2 feet up our robot, bending the entire frame in on a place we never thought would take a hit.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

We tipped over and were repeatedly (8 times approximately) hit while we were down. Stupid move on the part of that team since we were already useless at that point, but it did cost us a motor. The refs said they were trying to position for a shot, but in 15-20 seconds of hitting us while we were already down, I didn't see them attempt one shot.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

My father came to watch the New England competition on Saturday and told me that this game was a lot easier to understand (compared to '04 and '05), and that FIRST has made it a lot easier for an "outsider" to understand what is going on. He also said that at just like any other sporting event, there was a bit of contact and a bit of excitement. I think that defense and a little contact is an important strategy in this years game as it is in a basketball or soccer game.

By defining the offensive and defensive periods, it gives each alliance a chance to score and a chance to play defense. What your robot decides to do during your "defensive" period is up to you, but I think FIRST intended on having defense as a part of the game. And as someone said before, FIRST made a big deal about the bumpers this year as a clue that the game was definately going to be high contact and interactive.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

Sanddrag actually something similiar ALMOST happened at BAE with us. We were playing against a team with a track that exploded at the base of our alliance ramp leaving only a spot for one robot to go up at the time. We considered pushing them out of the way, but realized it wasn't GP at all, and instead all 3 of our robots went up one by one. It was a pretty good feeling.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

I saw a bot at PNW push a tipped bot out of the way of the ramp, gently but firmly. They didn't slam the corpse against the wall or anything, they just slid it out of the way. I didn't think it was terribly non-GP at all.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

Bumping and pushing robots on bumpers, or the equvalent contact area if a robot does not have them, is an entirely reasonable thing to expect of the game. Bumping and pushing a robot that is on its side, causing damage to the robot, is very unseemly and far from GP. I would hope that teams realize this in the future and act appropriately.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

Wow you guys are competing in regionals already? Sacramento regional start 3/24, still 2 weeks away.

Geez i feel so isolated from FIRST since we finished the bot.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

I think the point of Sandrag's comment is regarding the ramming of robots that have tipped over. As much as I hate to see it, and yes we got hit while we're down, I think its the nature of this year's game, inadvertanly, that is. Where do most of the robots go down? In front of the ramp, because they get pushed up at angle and can't recover especially with so many having a high CG. Where do you need to be at the end of a match? On the ramp! No wonder downed robots are getting slammed so much.

We tipped in the our second match at PNW. It was painful to see our robot caught inside of another robot while the other robot kept trying everything to rip free of us. And they did eventually. They ripped apart one of our bumpers. I think bumpers are here to stay folks!!

Oh and another note on robots that have tipped over... If they TRY to shoot out a ball while tipped they get a penalty!!! This happen by accident in our match and they considered it as extending outside the 5'x5' area because the robot was about 6' tall and on its side. Kinda funny really. We had two robots down in our alliance and lost miserably - got to love a little salt in the wound.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

This years game has more balances and trade-offs than any one I can remember. Woodie and Dave talked at length about that at kick-off.
IMHO the GDC did a fantastic job balancing the needs and experience level of rookie teams while allowing the veteran teams to build a very robust machine. This has to be a game for everyone.

We seem to forget that this is a learning tool. Don't think that your robot is not as good as the one in the pit next to you. That you made it to this point is my definition of success. My teams robots have been good, bad and ugly BUT they were all beautiful because they were there.

If you like something on another robot, ask them how they did it, or better yet ask them what in their decision process made them design it that way. At UTC they had random pit assignments. The teams were mixed veterans and rookies. Team 1784 form Litchfield, CT was pitted next to Team 126 from Clinton, MA. What a learning experience.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

I'm not directly involved with a team this year, and I haven't actually been to a regional yet. So, take this with a grain of salt.

Don't you guys think that the spike in damaged bots is related to the banning of the inclined plane (wedge)? In prior years, teams that planned to play tough defense usually built bots with wedges. This year, teams that planned to play defense built sledge hammers.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

the rules say you cannot make a robot tall enough to block the center goal

and the rules say your team MUST play defense for at least 40 seconds in each match (when you cannot score points)

if you cant block the center goal, what other option do you have but to push the offensive bots away from it?

This was clear from a simple analysis of the game and the rules right after the kickoff meeting.

Brutal? I think brutal would be if we score 25 points for throwing your opponents robots into the bleachers!

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

Just because you are allotted a 5' height limit doesn't mean you should use it.

Think of where your center of gravity will be if you have just 10 pounds 4 feet high while on the floor and going up the 30 degree ramp?

I've seen more teams this year say they have a low center of gravity, but they built their robot to be nearly 5 feet tall.

They also say they don't have much weight up high, but yet just a few pounds of weight above 3 feet is enough to end up wheels up.

Build strong and play hard, but just remember who your partner may be in the next match.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

you have to figure that in order for a rule to matter, it has to be enforced. in the latest games that have been designed, proper self-protection is ESSENTIAL. the fact that there have even been rules allowing bumpers and in the kickoff woody stressed their need (while not being mandatory) you have to consider that when the FIRST organization decides to stress a point that there HAS to be some important reason for it. designing a rudimentary bumper system is simple and effective. there were years I saw teams late throw together bumpers made out of pool foam floats and zip ties. bumpers don't have to be elaborate to work

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

This year was by far the most brutal competition I have seen in FIRST. Pushing is fine, but high speed ramming was explicitly spelled out in the rules as a foul, and at the BAE GSR is was ignored by the refs repeatedly. When video evidence was brought to the refs of repeated high speed ramming, they would not look at it.

When we were lined up to shoot one time we were rammed by 2 robots going full speed, they pushed us up the ramp and rolled us (this, while brutal, is part of the game and I have no problems with it). They then again rammed us on our turret to push us out of the way of the ramp so as to be able to climb the ramp (again, brutal, but ok). Then rammed us 2 more times on the turret just for good measure. This was in the semifinals, 2nd match. Seems to me that the high speed ramming rules were being ignored. The only thing I can say is that it was the same for all teams. 1 large CIM motor with a bent shaft was the only damage.

Lesson learned ... make sure your robot can withstand impacts even in areas you wouldnt expect and do not assume all rules will be enforced.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

Intent is so hard to capture on video (unless you have a video of the driver screaming "DIE DIE DIE YOU EVIL MINIONS OF SATAN!!!" as he rams the joystick back and forth).

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

Just want to say this:
Pitt was a great regional.
-and-
Defense is where it's at! I was told by 395's captain that when they saw how well we were doing just scoring twice in the corners and then playing defense, that they decided to turn off thier shooter and try the same thing. Their alliance (#1 seed) beat ours (#2 seed) in the third match of the finals 52-10 (or something to that effect). I just want to point out that we were pushing most everyone sideways, and even against 395 could move them a little if we were in low gear. Seeing as how we beat them in the last qualifying match, I think that it would have been an incredible final round if our bot hadn't lost a chain. But, its done and I am glad for 395, 1743, and 1038 and their regional title. We recieved the GM Industrial Design award for our robot, I/we are very proud of that one. I just want to thank the winners for a great match and that incredible show of GP, and our alliance partners 1629 and 1370 for keeping our alliance going when our bot wasn't working right.

Thanks again to all and keep up the good work!

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

LOL, Nah didnt get that :p

Nor am I complaining, since the refs were not calling it on anyone. Just letting people know whats out there.

BTW, the worst damage done to our robot was self inflicted on the first run of practice on that Thursday. A high speed ram during atonomous (sp?) mode because of a software mistake :yikes: It destroyed our front plate and pickup roller ... needless to say we had our work cut out for ourselves ;)

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

I agree.. it is too rough this year, with too few penalties. We didnt use bumpers @ GLR, because we wanted to get up the ramp, we are considering making them for waterloo though because their is oviously too many "battle bots" out there this year. especially if your wheel breaks due to being rammed SIDEWAYS up the platform and left to fall down on your side.

last year, the weight limit was great, but i think it should differ each year. it is too hard to build a robust robot that can take the punches (this year) with the complexity of this years game (if your robot is multi-function). We swiss cheesed what we could, drilled out gears, and used thinner walled aluminum, only 2 drive motors, and we are 119/120 lbs.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

It's never impossible to build a robust robot. We honestly have not had anything break so far (and now I've probably jinxed us for Chesapeake...); we use bumpers, we have no trouble up the ramp, and we were at 117.3 at last check. We have a shooter, a conveyor, and a dump, as well as pneumatics to run the shooter and dump. Granted, we are using two small CIMs, but something had to go.

Maybe the weight limit could have been different this year, but I think the reason FIRST made it hard to do everything was that they were aiming for a wide variety of designs. Last year, bascially everyone did the same thing. They did it very differently, but still the same thing. There were a few low scorers, but very few that I saw. This year, you have a very few purely defensive bots; bots with dumps and great defense; bots with average defense and good dumps; bots with average defense and good shooting; bots with average defense and good dumping and shooting; I could go on. The point is, this year's game seems to have been designed to allow for a wider variety of functions. To me, that makes the game a good bit more spectator-friendly. One match you see great dumping, then great defense, then great shooting. It's harder to get bored, if you ask me.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

25 points for every robot on the opponent's alliance not in it's intended orientation... (to avoid controversy)

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

Last year was absolutely horrible with penalites. Almost every match there would be some penalty or disqualification. If one robot was called for it, another had to be called. An endless chain of dq's and penalties would start from one questionable call. You also last year have to consider the height of robots compared to this year.....so....

This year robots (in theory) should be a lot less top heavy. There are robots out there pushing, hitting hard, i wont use ramming because that IMO implies malicious intent...I think FIRST adressed the penalty problem from last year perfectly, which is basically to let some stuff go. I love how this game is looking because its exciting, when you see one team relentlessly nailing 3 pointers, chances are theyre going to win, because they deserve to. Penalties, are def having less of an impact.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

I personally think brutal is the wrong word for the way the game is being played. It is different; it's a lot more defensive than past games have been. As the drive team coach I am telling my drive team to ram other robots to keep them from scoring, and it works. Our robot has a low center of gravity, a sturdy frame, and bumpers. I also am the team programmer. I switched our autonomous mode from shooting at the center goal, to a more defensive one. Playing a good defense is paying off more for our team than an offensive one was. Defense is a larger part of the game than it has been in the past.

I'm thinking this is a good thing, though. Good engineering is supposed to pay off in FIRST. If you designed a robot with a high center of gravity, weak drive train, and poor frame your robot will tip, get pushed around, and fall apart, and you will fail at the game.

At FLR during the qualifiers, scores were pretty high, usually above 40. During the elimination rounds, there was a significant drop in scores during the match, maybe an average of about 20. Why? Because alliances realized how important defense was to the game.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

Our ball shooter ended up not working, so we ended up as a purely defensive robot by the end of GLR. Our alliance partners were awesome, but they couldn't play very good defense. The only reason we did so good is because of our bumpers (Made out of pool floatys :D ) and really good traction. Defense is a huge part of the game that it seems like not a lot of teams thought about...I know we didn't really in particular think about it at the beginning of build season because "everybody was going to do it"

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

At the St.Louis copitition there was alot of raming and even more tiping. Some teams including us had progamed atamnimus modes to push other bots out of scoring position if everyone was this rugh in atanimus imagine how rough it got during the controled periods. In the finals one teams statigy was not to score but to keep everyone else from scoring. this turnd out to be very effective. in one match they tipped all of the opposing robots and then scored very few points to win. no penaltys for raming were called to my knowlage but they wer inforcing the 3in rule in the side goals and the ofsides rule.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

Definitely a brutal game. I mean 1251 was beat up at Florida regional as well as many other robots. Actually, our whole chassis bent. All in all though I think it's all good game play I mean as long as the calls are consistent from the refs you can't complain. Besides everyone knows it's tough to shoot when your getting hit around. This is why the autonomous is critical this year.

my two cents,
Drew

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

This may be a brutal game, but defense is a part of life. I like the fact that there are specific defensive periods. Yes teams do push, yes teams do hit hard, but FIRST gave you an extra 15lbs for bumpers. As far as tipping goes, all the tips I have seen have been completely legal and most of them were not even because of a defender. There have been no wedges or flipping arms. Sure teams tip over, but instead of complaining about how brutal the game is maybe they could have spent more time on making the COG much lower. I love this game for its defensive aspect and how defense is in "controlled" periods. My team is not a defensive robot, we take hits and sure it's frustrating on the field sometimes, but I guarantee it's just as frustrating if not more frustrating being a defensive machine. Believe me this game is not anywhere near games of the past. Life is not easy and neither is FIRST, so make the best with what you have and don't condemn others for doing the best with what they have!

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

This thread asks a question that is very clear - everyone can respond with their feelings about "if the game is brutal" - lets stay on topic and not slide into discussions rationalizing your stance on defense or condemning others with different opinions about defense. Sandrag didn't ask -Is this game brutal because of defense - defense in and of itself may not make the game brutal - its how the "defense" is applied.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

I think the game this year is the result of the long debate of an offensive game vs. a defensive game. With clearly defined periods of offense and defense for each alliance, there's no question about whether defense or offense is dominant in this year's game- it's a balanced combination of each, and each type of play has the opportunity to win. Arguably, 2004 and 2005 were primarily offensive games- as we saw in the finals at the Championship event in Atlanta. The best ball and tetra manipulators took home gold. Going back further, 2002 and 2003 were primarily defensive games- strong drive trains and defensive strategy dominated. This was more as a side effect of how the games were designed- in 2002, the playing field was completely clear, with the 3 heavy mobile goals and set scoring zones. Pushing, shoving, pulling, tug-of-war type robots dominated- as each goal and associated soccer balls were only worth points when held in a certain zone. In 2003, teams quickly figured out it was easier to knock stacks of bins over than spend time trying to stack up themselves, and matches often came down to who was on the ramp at the end. In 2004, the gears changed a bit, with more emphasis on scoring (putting balls in goals, capping with 2x ball, hanging), than descoring (knocking over stacks, shoving bins to the other side of the field). 2005 was the same way- once a tetra was scored, it stayed scored. If an opposing robot knocked a tetra off, it was put back on by the referees, and automatically owned by the scoring alliance.

This year the game seems to be a clear cut mix of both capabilities, and promises to keep people guessing who will win up until the finals. During the New Jersey regional, I saw the dominating power of a primarily offensive alliance as 25 (one of the best shooters I've seen this season), 103, and 1279 broke through the defensive maneuvers of 375, 486, and 1860 to win the event. At the New England regional, I saw 177, 176, and 1124 make awesome use of defensive strategy to knock the strong offensive alliance of 126, 20, and 571 out in a 3 match semi-final series.

Whether or not the game is brutal will vary from regional to regional. Defense is integrated into the game, so there's no question there will be pushing and shoving. If a team wants to be excessive with the force applied to other robots, that's a drive team decision. The hope is that won't happen, and if it does, the referees will catch it. Contact is built into the game- how much is necessary will vary on a team by team basis. Brutality doesn't come from the game, but from the players playing it.

I can't wait to see what the regionals in coming weeks will bring, and the effect of observing strategy at all the regionals combined at the Championship.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

As a respected FIRSTer said before the 2003 season...
I think with the game (defensive periods) and the field (30 degree ramp) I would say that the game is "unforgiving".

Sandrag - I hope everything is repaired and look forward to seeing 696 in So. Cal.!

-Mr. Van
Coach, 599

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

I saw two very distinctly different kinds of competition at NJ and Pittsburgh. That difference I think can be attributed to the robot types and capabilities.

In NJ we had a number of very effective ball shooters and a few good ball dumpers. Many of these had quite manuverable and/or powerful drive systems and good balance. These qualities made it more difficult for defenders to effectively counter them. Granted, it was an alliance of some of the best, but the offense-oriented winning alliance was able to keep their more defense-oriented opponents running throughout their matches. 25's great drive system made it difficult for a defender to prevent them from getting balls from their human player or push them off target when shooting. 103's accuracy at long range and agile chassis let them avoid or roll off defenders, and while the defenders were focusing on those two high-profile teams, 1279 would slip in and fire off 5 balls into the goal up close. Besides that alliance, the number of effective scoring robots present in NJ probably tilted the balance away from brutal defense.

The story was quite the opposite in Pittsburgh. There, it seemed like 1038 and 365 were the most effective 3 pt shooters, and there were a few others which could score sometimes. 393 & 395 were very effective in the corner goals. Both 1038 & 365 were prone to tipping, which made them more easily defended. Since a larger percentage of teams there were trying to score in the corner goals, there was a lot more robot interaction. Also, several teams in Pittsburgh were purely defensive, and a few were warned or penalized for over-aggressiveness. One robot (393?) managed to move the end of the field back over an inch going for the corner goal at high-speed (I was impressed), and several crashed loudly into the side rails during autonomous. All in all, it was a very defense-oriented event.

I'm looking forward to Chesapeake and Philly to see what happens when some of the best offensive robots meet some of the best defensive ones. A shame 25 won't be at either event; I'd like to see what would happen when they meet a really good defender.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

This game is Brutal.

In the first match of the quarterfinals at UTC, our robot was rammed really hard in autonomous mode and was somehow knocked out for the second period. We were able to get it running again for the rest of the match, but for some reason, it wasn't shooting right. It wasn't until after we lost the quarterfinals that we learned that that robot had rammed us so hard that our camera lens was dislodged from the camera and was unable to focus. We had programmed our camera to automatically adjust the tilt of the shooter. Our robot was shooting low and was unable to score at all.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

If a team rams you in autonomus and totals your scoring mechanism


then you fix it

and the same team does the same thing in autonomus and breaks it again should that count as an intentional malignant ram

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

it depends. If your scoring mechanism is in the bumper zone, then its up to you to protect it - even if it means you have to face your robot into the railing during auton mode.

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

i dunno, 2003 Stack Attack was VERY physical at the top of the ramp, that game was a blast from a drivers standpoint :D

Re: This is a brutal game.
 

I saw a battery knocked physically out of a Robot and the Brazilian team seemed to have large cracks in their plastic at NYC.

Our robot got so battered that there was perhaps only two screws holding on the entire right hand cover of our robot by the end, with a substantial amount of Cable ties on the robot. It didn't stop us from being defensive in Autonomous though, charging towards the far goal to block an opponent from scoring, with the 'occassional' contact resulting from it...

Mind you, some teams are getting disciplined as our opponents were disqualified in the second heat of our semi-final for something along the lines of excessive ramming at high speed so I'm told for their actions against 694's robot Joshua. If it weren't for that decision, they would have been in the final instead of us... we won the tie-breaker by 2 points.

Re: This is a brutal game.