Re: Scoring For Your Opponents
 

There has to be a tie-breaker for teams with equal w/l/t records. FIRST has elected to set that up to be the losing team's score. This certainly can cause scoring for the opponents - as the triplets did this year. I recall seeing 67 pick up an opponent's tetra last year to score a row for them, for the same reason.

While it can be seen as insulting, it isn't meant to be so. The alternative is to have rankings based on your own scores - which would encourage running up the score. In my mind, that is more insulting. FIRST has created a solution to one problem that creates a lesser problem. It's a trade-off - you can't have everything perfect.

The fact that scoring for your opponent also increases their ranking makes this option better than the "running up the score" option, IMO.

Even more insulting would be to get ahead, then step back from your controls and stop playing. That's the "I can beat you with one hand tied behind my back" taunt.

Re: Scoring For Your Opponents
 

This sounds a bit like some weird Klingon or gladiator form of pride, where a warrior would rather be put to death by an opponent that led away on their feet as a loser.

In engineering you cannot guarantee results, all you can do is guarantee your best effort will be applied to the project. I have been on projects that did not turn out well, I have been on projects that were cancelled. We still had end-of-project parties, and we still had the same level of pride in our work

because we did the best we could under the circumstances.

Besides, sometimes no matter how good you are someone else will one-up you and do better. Sometimes pride is great. Sometimes humility is called for. No one can humiliate you if you are already humble in the presence of greatness.

Re: Scoring For Your Opponents
 

Actually, the ranking points are rather complex.

First is Qualifing Points (QP's)
Win - 2pt
Loss/DQ - 0pt
Tie - 1pt

In the event of a tie in QP's they use ranking points (RP's) which are awarded as follows:

Win - The lesser of Unpenalized Alliance Scores from either Alliance
Loss - Penalized score of losing alliance
Tie - Penalized score of own alliance.
DQ - zero

I just finished a backup scoring sheet in excel, what a pain.

Re: Scoring For Your Opponents
 

This brings up a good point - MAKE SURE you are comfortably ahead before you start scoring for the opposition, especially this season. We obviously cannot always rely upon real time scoring to give us any true indication of how the match stands. To avoid any potential heartache/devastation/what have you out of your alliance should you score TOO MANY points for the opposition, make sure the scoring gap is wide enough to proceed, and don't get TOO greedy.

If this strategy backfires on any alliance that attempts it, they will have no one to blame but themselves. Be smart - know the risks before proceeding.

Re: Scoring For Your Opponents
 

First off, I'm not a klingon or a gladiator. I'd like to hope I'm better looking then that. I may have too much pride in my robot, or just too much pride overall, I will admit that. I also have no problem in being blown-out, one-upped if my alliance/robot deserves it. I do have a problem with when they not only one-up me and do better, but also show that they recognized just how much better they are, and instead of holding back, score for me.

FIRST is not just engineering. FIRST is a sport, in which opposing teams play against each other. In hockey, in baseball, in soccer, opposing teams would never score for you, not only because they are competitive, but because they have respect for your effort.

I'm not saying that this is what would be going through the opposing team's minds when they score for you, but it's what some people will get out of it.

There is a fine line between humility and humiliation, and for some, who certainly have humility, this may cross that line.

Re: Scoring For Your Opponents
 

but with the points system in this game they are not scoring for you, they are raising the score (points) that THEY will get.

If the other team did not get your points at the end of the match they dump points into your goal, then that would be weird (when they could dump them in their own goal instead).

How about the flip side of this, when a team knows they are going to lose, so they stop playing, knowing their low score will hurt the team that is beating them?

BTW, I was wondering - if you hold the reset button on the OI down, do the lights on the robot go off? Would it be possible for a robot to 'play dead' by doing this, and then come back to life, to win a close match?

Re: Scoring For Your Opponents
 

I definitely see your point. Yes, they are technically scoring points for themselves, but it is still demoralising when they send a barrage of poofballs towards your goal, on the scoreboard, giving you points. Ranking points are not displayed for everyone to cheer at - the game points are. When your alliance was so outplayed that the other team scored 30 points FOR you, you can no longer take credit for the score that is up there.

If an alliance stops playing, knowing that the other team will be hurt by it, then they have already lowered the level of competition, and, as far as I am concerned, asked for their goal to be scored on. If they do not compete to the best of their abilities, to intentionally hurt the other team, they do not deserve to have pride.

Re: Scoring For Your Opponents
 

If the opposing alliance is scoring for you, just double your efforts and try to score even more. I'm sure that there are games in which one team, thinking they were ahead more than they were, scored for the other team and ended up giving them the game.

Re: Scoring For Your Opponents
 

Try to keep track of what they actually have, because if you don't.. Hey guess what, you could score posints for them and make them win!!!

HA HA HA!! That would be great.

To each strategy their are plusses and minuses, and this is a risk you will have to take on.

Re: Scoring For Your Opponents
 

i seen when you guys did that, i was surprised that you actually had that planned, i was thinking " no way, thats the first time i seen that this year "

Re: Scoring For Your Opponents
 

Personally i think it's unfair.

the whole idea behind the ranking system factoring in how much or how little you won by is so that if you get matched with a awesome alliance, and the other alliance isn't as great, you don't get a giant boost in your rank for winning an easy match.

I think boosting your rank like this is very unfair. Is it legitimate? sure. But fair? no. That's not fair to the team's who truly WORKED to just pull out of a match and win by a single point.

My two cents, like it or not, it's my opinion.

-Chrisms

Re: Scoring For Your Opponents
 

I think that scoring for your opponent is a good strategy to get higher in the leaderboard, but the whole purpose of having the loosing team score is this:

If an great alliance, lets say (1114,1503, 67), against 3 bots that dont score
score is: 80:7
you dont get awarded a good RP because it was oviously not a challenge.

ok .. this time you score some for the other team.
the score is 80:55
do you deserve the better ranking for winning against really bad teams?

NO! .. the purpose of using the loosing teams score, is to rank alliances higher if they beat a EVENLY matched team in a match, so your spoofing RP to make it seem like every match you played was a HARD game. If you can barely beat an great alliance, you deserve RP more then being the amazing alliance and beating a lower calliber team and spoofing RP.

PS: i dont have anything against 1114, 1503, or 67, i just used them as an example since they won GLR, and they are a great alliance! congrats to them at that!
thats my two $0.02 -kevin

Re: Scoring For Your Opponents
 

I agree, I think that teams should worry about their own score and if they are winning not how many RPs they will get out of the match.

I think that any team that feels the need to cheat the system to get a better ranking has let winning become to important to them.

Re: Scoring For Your Opponents
 

My psychic powers must be a little off today

I thought the idea behind giving the winning team the losing teams score was so that super alliances dont completely shut out a weak alliance.

If you got your own score, then you could - you could have 200 to 0 matches.

I would think that evenly matched alliances would see matches end up in low scores for both sides because the great offense was matched by great defense - thats what I saw in the finals, teams were winning with low scores by one or two points.

Now that I think about it somemore, I think the idea behind giving the winning team the losing teams score is this: The winning team gets the losing teams score! <= That is the game - play to win: the match, the best seed, the finals.

Re: Scoring For Your Opponents
 

I remember in 2003 when QP was such a roblem teams started brokering deals to keep their stacks intact so both alliances would score hefty QP points win or lose. THe debate split FIRST right down the middle.
Some saw it as a great strategy and others saw it as corrupting the ideals of competition. It gets real funny when you start thinking about QP points as much (if not more) tha the win, which is probably why FIRST started going with the W/L record over just QP points so it wouldn't be as much an issue.
I'm not all that fond of the QP points but they are a part of the FIRST landscape so we live with them. If you choose to focus on them just understand the risk and be rprepared to take the consequences if they backfire.