Adult vs. Student coaches
 

Before I start, I define coach as the person who is part of the 4 member field team who is not a driver, operator, or human player.

We have always believed in having a student coach and we have always had a pretty good student coach. When we get paired up into alliances, often teams will over-sell themselves and leave us with inferior performance on the field. Many times we get screwed over for follwing their strategy instead of our own. Sometimes, we folllow their strategy because they have an adult coach, and our student coach is in no position to argue with an adult coach. I think FIRST should make a rule one way or the other and not allow either one. I speculate that there is some unfairness that comes about from having adult coaches as opposed to student coaches. I know every team has the right to an adult coach but every team has a different philosophy on what and how their students should learn. So:

Do you have an adult coach or a student coach?
Why?
Do you feel it increases your ranking, winning, and success in matches?
Do you feel it enhances your team as a whole?
Do you feel it enhances the accuracy, precision, and speed in driving and operation?
What downsides are there?

And if you have a student coach, please answer the additional question:
Do you feel intimidated or persuaded by adult coaches on your alliance?

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

What do we count an adult coach who was a student team member just 2 years ago? Our coach this year was a member from 2 years ago who still mentors the team.

Anyway, I think student or adult coaches can work well, it just depends on what kind of experience you have; many students I think are not well suited to be a coach, but the same I can say for many adult mentors as well. Your entire drive team should be capable of deciding things for their own, with the coaches main job being to direct things on the field and communicate with the other teams when the drivers are busy controlling their own robot. Match strategy and such should be a joint discussion, and is easy to take part in for any drive member; I was coach last year, and part time shooter operator this year, but I did relatively the same role except this year I could operate controls rather than telling what to do.

On the student coach note; a student coach should NEVER feel intimidated by an adult coach. I have never felt intimidated by an alliance coach (student or adult), perhaps times I've been a little frustrated or confused by their decision making, but I've always made sure to put in my suggestions. If a student is intimidated, they are either not fully ready to be a coach, or the adult coach is doing something far beyond what they should be doing. Adults and students can be equally capable of strategizing and directing alliance play.

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

We have a student coach.
It's because our drive-team is made up of the people who built the robot.
I don't feel that it has much of an effect.
It makes it it easier to discuss strategies with him, because he is a peer.



And... We have noted that Adult mentors do demand more attention and autority when deciding what strategy we are going to use, but for our team, that doesn't matter. If we can see that their strategy is flawed... We find a way to use our strategy. Part of the reason we have no trouble disagreeing with adult coaches is because we do it as a whole... a whole drive-team that is.

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

well my team uses . . me . .is it because we believe that using college students are better than adults . . is it because when I was on the team 2 years ago I was the "all time spotter" for BEST . . or is it because we only have 12 kids me and another coach for a team. well its one of those. . . as far as strategy goes I have found that if you talk with the drivers(students) well before your match to work out your strategy, you'll stand a better chance of the adult mentor not "having a better idea". . . ohh and also dont get bitter when your idea gets a) shot down b) falls flat on its face during execution, thats just life

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

Our team has gone both ways. Our rookie year was 2004 (Stack Attack) and we put adult coaches on the field because we saw most of the other teams doing it. We also thought it would make things go better as a rookie team. The job of field coach was rotated through several of the adult mentors.

The next fall at a local competition I played floor coach for several matches and just got really irritated having to ride herd on the rest of the floor team so from then on until the last regional we did last year, we had student coaches. I do know that on one occasion the floor team abandoned our strategy because an adult coach on one of the other teams told them to so I sympathize with your assessment of that.

I was talked into coaching at the last regional we went to last year and did so through the practice matches and the qualifying matches Friday morning. At that point we'd been in first place most of the morning and then just before lunch slipped into 2nd place. However, the last match the rest of the floor team totally ignored my instructions so I figured why bother with the stress of coaching if they're not going to pay attention and didn't coach again. Coincidentally, they didn't win another match.

Personally, from the perspective of my team, I don't think any of the students have the presence to be good coaches on the floor. None have made the effort to understand the game and how to apply it to our robot.

I do agree with you that FIRST should make the rule one way or the other though. Few students are going to successfully negotiate with an adult in those situations.

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

Do you have an adult coach or a student coach? Me, College student, Adult.
Why?
Well, i got shoved into the coach role in 2005 because our our teams adviser thought that our drive team needed someone with a louder voice to tell them what was going on. In 2006, I was swapping in and out with one of our students, when the drive team called a quick meeting and decided that i would be better coaching all the time since the student coach was giving too much information, and the student coaching thought it was too stressful. Since i was the wire guy on our team, and worked close with programming, i knew what would need to get fixed before we even got back to the pit.

Do you feel it increases your ranking, winning, and success in matches?
Honestly, No. While I'm the on field "Coach", in reality, i act as a 4th set of eyes and communication method between driver and HP. The drivers like it when i was telling them the least amount of information, stuff like "Offence, Defense, 20 seconds, Block XXX they are going to shoot, push balls in" And help the HP get balls. I came up with very little of our actual strategy, our drive team was much better at it than i was.

Do you feel it enhances your team as a whole?
I don't think it makes much of a difference personally.

Do you feel it enhances the accuracy, precision, and speed in driving and operation?
I don't think this matters if your an adult or a student, as long as your doing what your drivers and HP wants and trying to help them rather than push them around.

What downsides are there?
Personally, i would rather a student out there since the only reason i mentor is for the students and to build sweet robots. I would much rather see a student get the experience of being on the field and hearing your team cheering!

And if you have a student coach, please answer the additional question:
Do you feel intimidated or persuaded by adult coaches on your alliance?

Ill go ahead and answer anyway, even i as an adult i feel persuaded or intimidated by other pushy coaches. One case at Buckeye stands out in my mind: we were allied with a team who essentially demanded to be backbot, and there reasoning was "Well your robot cant pickup off the ground" We tried to tell them that if we were backbot we could get at least 7 of 10 balls in even if we got pushed around a bit, but they still wanted to be backbot. That match was the first shutout at buckeye :(

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

It depends on the team and situations. This year, we have a student coaching who's had 4 years in our program and understands the details of the game, tournament, etc... Last year I coached half of the games, he coached half. In 2004, we used student coaches exclusively. I don't think it should ever be a blanket policy, teams should select what suits them best. Frankly, I only coach in situations so as to help the drive team about the little things like not forgeting their controls, or which side to come on off the field, and taking the occasional snapshots. I get frustrated when teams take too long getting on and off the field, and I don't want to be one of those teams!! The event goes so much smoother if it's on-time. All the other issues, like clock management, what move to make, strategy, etc.. can definitely be done by student coaches.

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

Discussions have surfaced on the team over the last couple years. Though we considered it and tried it at the Scrimage we attend- We have always gone with adults. I am one of the coaches.

There are several factors that we have looked at. In some cases it was the students that didn't feel comfortable "commanding" their peers. In some cases it was the drive team that wanted the adult, In other cases we didn't feel the focus, game knowledge, and field presence was not there.

I can tell you this, I have worked cooperatively with student coaches and have been impressed with many of them. I have never loomed my will over the allience. We discuss different strategies, and based on other successes, and the capabilities of the robots, we try to come to a concensis.

This year hasn't shown this yet, but often people didn't follow the strategy no mater what was decided. So If you feel pressured, there's always that out, just don't get a reputation of not being a team player. My goal is to keep the team focused on the task and follow the strategy.

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

Do you have an adult coach or a student coach? Student. Her name is Rosie.
Why? The X-Cats have always beleived that it is more important to have the learning experience given to the students than have an adult out there just because we wantthe trophy. We are not just driven by our trophy case but by our misson to inspire.
Do you feel it increases your ranking, winning, and success in matches?We got kids who have a good head on their shoulders who handle themselves well and work well with others. So it has helped.
you feel it enhances your team as a whole? Oh most definately.
ou feel it enhances the accuracy, precision, and speed in driving and operation? Actually yes. Our drives teams are close cohesive units (you know what kids call friends) and the coach will take suggestions from the drive team instead of an adult having absolute rule over the student.
What Downsides are there? Well inexperience obviously. Plus kids can be deferred by a "type A adult" who imposes their will upon them even if they have a better perspective how to handle the match.

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

We have an adult coach, but our primary strategist is our student driver.

There are some adult coaches who are very dynamic, to the point of sometimes being overbearing and bossy. This can have an effect on not only a student strategist, but also on other adult coaches. If the problem is a bossy alliance partner, it really doesn't matter who they are bossing around.

When encountering such a personality type, you must respond in a polite but firm manner. Listen to what they say, evaluate, and make suggestions. "I like this, but what if ..." A coach who doesn't listen to others on the alliance isn't working in partnership, but dictatorship. Some will never change; others will change if handled gently.

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

The students get to build the robot, drive the robot, and be human players. You gotta let the mentors have some of the fun. ;)

Seriously, I'm quite biased because I have known some great mentor coaches. I don't disagree with having students as coaches as well, and I don't doubt that student coaches can do just as well as or better than adult coaches. I think it's a team-by-team decision. The student coaches do need to learn to be just as assertive as the mentor coaches though.

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

This very debate came up on our team in the hotel on Friday night. We ran both students and adults as coaches in Cleveland and plan to run only students in Milwaukee.

I have coached for the last three years and stepped down this year (though I did go out for 2 matches) so that others, preferably students, can have the experience. Even though I was the only one out of 5 coaches that has had any FIRST coaching experience, all 5 coaches did well.

If a student goes into a pre-match meeting with a game plan in mind and strategy suggestions, there is no reason they should be ignored. As a coach, I never turned away an idea just because it came from a student coach. Anyone who does is NOT acting in the spirit of FIRST.

There is one example that was brought up at our meeting, however, that makes sense. All sports out there are coached by an older, experienced adult. FIRST is a sporting event, so should coaches also be older? Do adult mentors take away from the experience? No, I don't think so. To be honest, I've met a few coaches out there that can act less mature than student coaches.

Kev

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

Our team uses a adult mentor who is also an alumni. Why? Because he is good. He has a great rapport with the students and works well with them. He has worked with the strategy team that also has alumni working with the students. We find that it is a win win situation. Our team does well, we have a great scouting group who helps the strategy guys who tell the drive team the best strategy, who then implement what they have been told.

Again in FIRST we try to teach mentorship and team work. It doesn't matter if it is your team or alliance. I find in very concerning that teams say we are going to do it our way and that's that. I know that I have heard our drive team say that a team was to take care of something and then just did what they wanted to do. This really affects team balance in a match. It also affects who is chosen during pickings. I know that in the past we ranked some team high but did not pick them as they were a rogue team and would not follow team strategy.

Are students better coaches? Sometimes. Are adults better? Sometimes. Are college students better? Sometimes. A team should be choosing on the abilities of the person and how they can add to the team, not because of their age. This goes for all areas, not just coaching.

BTW - You will never see me coaching as I know that I don't have the skill sets. :p

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

Do you have an adult coach or a student coach? Both, but if we can we put a student out there.

Do you feel it increases your ranking, winning, and success in matches? Doesn't make any difference as far as we can tell.

Do you feel it enhances your team as a whole? No difference.

Do you feel it enhances the accuracy, precision, and speed in driving and operation? Nope - the driver does the traditional coach job of coaching. The coach is used to collect and distribute information from the field and to/from the other coaches. Our coach is a fancy organic switchboard, not a decision making device.

What downsides are there? Doesn't seem to matter.

And if you have a student coach, please answer the additional question:
Do you feel intimidated or persuaded by adult coaches on your alliance? - Don't think it matters. We aren't out there to win at all costs, and even our adult coaches get intimidated by other coaches. But our superior scouting has really eliminated that - we don't just report back on the op-force, but we also know exactly how our partners have been doing, and if they are making stuff up.

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

Team 234, as far as I know, always has had an adult coach. I'm not sure it increases our winning or rank but it is beneficial to have an older person there during 'battle'. It helps our drivers keep calm and it's good to have someone older making the critical decisions during matches so the stress doesn't come back to the students as much. It may advance our accuracy and precision in driving but we really use an adult mentor as our coach to ease the nerves of the student drivers and have mentoring in action.

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

Do you have an adult coach or a student coach? Student

Why? We feel that the project is for the students and the students should do everything, and the teacher/mentor is there just to help out and give advice... (and weld)

Do you feel it increases your ranking, winning, and success in matches? I don't think it really matters if the coach is a student or an adult. The coach, anyway, should have good understanding and knowledge of the game and the rules.

Do you feel it enhances your team as a whole? Yes

What downsides are there? Maybe the lack of experience, but I don't think that really effects his functioning if the coach has a good understanding of the game.

Do you feel intimidated or persuaded by adult coaches on your alliance? No

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

I'm on a team were we have an all student drive team, in my own perfect world however I'd give the coaching job to an adult. Why? Simply because students don't do everything, they do most of the work, but the adults do some of it too.

Do you have an adult coach or a student coach? Student

Why? Not my decision....

Would I rather have an adult coach or a student coach? Adult

Why? I believe that a lot of FIRST's goal is to see Students working with Adults and learning, I believe that this shouldn't be restricted to just the design and build process, the competition itself should be a joint effort.

Do you feel it increases your ranking, winning, and success in matches? I don't think it'll change too much, but just in choosing an adult it may calm some of the high pressure situations at the end of a match. Whether or not it'll change the score, I don't know. What I do know is that whoever is behind the driver and operator is that they are trying their hardest.

Do you feel it enhances your team as a whole? Of course, it just is another example of students and adults working together.

What downsides are there? Not an all student drive team? I don't see that as a downside but some people may.

Do you feel intimidated or persuaded by adult coaches on your alliance? If I was a young student, possibly. But with an adult coach I'd think that'd be something they'd need to address with every alliance.


Just my thoughts, I don't want to replace anyone, but I think an Adult coach would be good for my ideal team. (even though Ideal never happens)

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

I have been on teams where both should happen for alot of the different reasons stated above in this thread. For me it comes down to this. I love to coach, i feel that strategy is still far overlooked in FIRST events and alot of the time all you need is a bot that can drive and a good strategy to win the match. That being said nothing makes me happier then to see an all student drive team. If there is an individual on the team that shows the ability to think out situations and react well on the fly, while keeping a cool head i always go for a student coach.

Typically the way i like it is a student coach where there is a mentor present during the strategy session to back up the students. Although I would still not turn down the opportunity to coach if it were offered to me.

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

Do you have an adult coach or a student coach?
Adult
Why?
He was our winning driver in 1999 and is the best strategist on the team
Do you feel it increases your ranking, winning, and success in matches?
Helps most in elimination matches
Do you feel it enhances your team as a whole?
Yes
Do you feel it enhances the accuracy, precision, and speed in driving and operation?
He Keeps our drivers more focused. A very mature student could do the same, but we haven't found one.
What downsides are there?
One less student on the field.


Bill Pease Teacher Mentor not coach
Aces High Team 176
2006 UTC New England Champions with 177 and 1124
2006 BAE Granite State Finalists with 319 and 562
1999 National Champions (best robot and drive team ever IMHO)

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

Team 1254 had an adult coach. This is because only one student was a returning student from the year before. :( ALL other students were new. :) Our school is Juniors and Seniors only. :( He has been the coach for three years now and the students really like having him there. :) He is a relatively new teacher at our school and relates extremely well to the students, especially under the pressure of competition. :)

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

If we were to have a student coach, i would say the same. When drive teams normally have their alliance meeting, the team with the Adult Coach is always the one being listened too. I have rarely seen a student coach able to delegate duties over an adult.

Do you have an adult coach or a student coach? Adult
Why? He is darn good at it.
Do you feel it increases your ranking, winning, and success in matches? Increases Greatly.
Do you feel it enhances your team as a whole? Drive team at least.
Do you feel it enhances the accuracy, precision, and speed in driving and operation? Allows myself to have an extra set of eyes to be able to know how the humna player is doing, as well as the score.
What downsides are there? None.

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

Team 67, as far as I know, has always had an adult coach. I agree with the posts in this thread that point out that the age doesn't matter, the qualities of the coach and their ability to function in that position do.

I think that a lot of the aspects of coaching (especially in selecting a coach) have to do with the interaction between the (potential) coach and the students, especially those on the drive team. I know our current coach works very well with the students. He may be intimidating the first time you meet him, but he's an awesome guy who really has the respect of the students. In turn, he respects the students, which, in my opinion, helps him in his coaching. If a student is treated like an adult, they will be more likely to act and perform as one, in any function on the team. He is intense on the field, but he is knowledgable and fair, and has quite a bit of experience now in the coaching position. Another thing that helps is that he's been with the team for several years now. He knows how FIRST functions and if there's a question that arises in the middle of the match, he can use his resources from experience to advise how to address the situation. Along the same idea, I know of a team that showed this concept -- they used one mentor coach for the season and a different one for offseason. The differences in how they viewed each of these mentors made a huge difference on how they played.

To those who are rotating coaches: how does this affect your consistency? I know in the past, we tried alternating between two coaches, and it ended up being highly confusing.

*Disclaimer: I was not on drive team in high school. I was head of the pit crew, so I did have significant interaction with them, however. I also know that I don't think I could perform the job of coach anywhere near the level of several of our other mentors, if I could do it at all.

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

Team 1568 had a student coach last year and a College mentor for a coach this year. The coach just like all of the other posistions is open to any one, preference goes to the people who know the rules and can develop strategies as well as those with the best attendance. THis year the best person happened not to be in highschool. The most important thing for a coach to be able to do is to get along with the drive team and communicate with them.

Last year I hated when other teams had adult coaches, I felt that they did not apprerciate other alliance partner's strategies and insisted on their own. This year however I had no problems with other teams coaches, they were always willing to listen and would either incorporate your Idea or explain why they think another would work better. I think that BAE had good examples of quality student and adult coaches. Icurtis developed winning strategies for 1276 and Andy Grady was great with incorporating every ones strengths and preferences into an alliance strategy.

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

team 1660 has always had adult coaches. this year were gonna go to student choaching to c how it is

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

this year is my second year on the team and it is my first year being coach
it has been quite an experience being coach
our driver this year had been the coach since he was a freshmen in our firs year and has done very well in those 3 years, he has also done a great job teaching me what i need to do as coach in my upcoming years
so i guess what i am trying to say is as long as u have someone that knows the game and can take command on the field u can have a good coach no matter if they are a mentor or a student
this year being my first year i was already given the chance to lead an alliance in the tournament at FLR and was able to lead that alliance to a regional championship(which surprised me :ahh:
so in all this i am trying to say that i think that FIRST should make a rule saying that student coaches should be mandatory or that mentor coaches should be mandatory
this year there was a new rule stating that only drivers, operators, and human players could talk to the refs and judges which disappointed me because of the time i spent studying the rules and preparing for the competitions

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

I have to agree with Greg, and say that this is pretty much the way we do it. We have a student coach this year, with an adult mentor who can sub in if needed(ie if our coach is off presenting our CA), or just sit in on strategy sessions. We started this last year, when originally we were going to have an adult (just for lack of any students really interested/capable), but then we found a student who was really good at it, and the two of them tag-teamed the rest of our events. It was a really nice dynamic, as they were able to learn from eachother. Im pretty certain we will continue to run the adult/student thing for a while.

But in the end, I believe its whatever works best for the team. If there is a student excited and capable, let them do it, if there isnt, have an adult do it, if you have a college student thats really really good and works well with your drivers, have them do it. One of our number one things we were looking for this year in our drive team was chemistry. If they could communicate well without yelling at eachother or not understanding things, that was what we wanted (and what we got! :))

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

This years coach is a new mentor, and a senior and co captain of our team from last year. I have never felt any intimidation by adult captains, and Ian is dead useful. I'm only the human player, so I don't know how the drivers feel, but he is absolutly great. Go Ian.

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

Team 624 CRyptonite has always used students for coaches. Some have done very well, others not so well, but we have never considered changing (even though some of the students have asked us to).

There have been a lot of interesting reasons, one way or the other, posted in this thread and, in my opinion, they all have merit. The decision about student or adult coach appears to hinge on two factors: Best candidate and best advantage. For my part, I have always felt that the competitions are for the students; a chance to show off what they have accomplished and enjoy the adrenaline rush of the competition (I'm not sure my heart could take the stress behind the glass!).

A comment was made in an earlier post about letting the mentors have some fun too, and that FIRST is about students working with adults. First, thanks for thinking about us and second, your right about students working with adults. Our thoughts are the same, but we prefer to work with the students "behind the scene" as it were. I get my kicks out of watching the students take the lime light. Sometimes they shine brighter than at other times, but they always shine. The experience of the leadership required to be the coach is a huge step along the path to leadership among adults, and in society, and I would not want to deny that opportunity to the students. I get my chance every day when I go to work and, frankly, I need the break!

So, should students or adults be coaches? It doesn't matter to me. I prefer to let the students take the responsibility but have no problem with teams that feel differently. Each team has its own dynamics and needs to do what's best for them.

Oh, the questions:

Do you have an adult coach or a student coach? Student
Why? The chance for the learning experience
Do you feel it increases your ranking, winning, and success in matches? No
Do you feel it enhances your team as a whole? Yes
Do you feel it enhances the accuracy, precision, and speed in driving and operation? Possibly
What downsides are there? None

And if you have a student coach, please answer the additional question:
Do you feel intimidated or persuaded by adult coaches on your alliance? We have had students complain about overbearing coaches from other teams at competitions, but we just try to teach them how to handle these situations. After all, in real life, you will run into overbearing people, and you need to know how to deal with it.

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

Do you have an adult coach or a student coach?

Team 538 has always had a student.

Why?

Because this program is build around young people learning real world experiences. And having to deal with other alliances is truly a real world experiences.

Do you feel it increases your ranking, winning, and success in matches?

I don’t think is matters. It just depends on strategy, drivers and the robots ability

Do you feel it enhances your team as a whole?

I think having a student coach seem to begin the team closer together. Because, the coach take suggestions from the whole team on what we should do during a match. But we have one rule if a drive makes a mistake during the match the team members are NOT to take opinion to that drive they are to go to the coach first. Because, the coach is one who make the decision on the field not the drivers.

Do you feel it enhances the accuracy, precision, and speed in driving and operation?

I think this depends on the ability of the robot and how well the team works together.

What downsides are there?

I agree with Rombus
Do you feel intimidated or persuaded by adult coaches on your alliance?

At time I feel intimidated because, the adults coaches sometime have attitudes, that I don’t know what I am doing because I am a student.

Julie
Team Captain/ Coach

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

This year my team 710 decided on the coaching role at the last minute. I ended up being the coach for serveral reasons.

1. This is my 6th year doing first as well as driving the robot in 2 of them.
2. My brother was the base driver for the bot and we communicate well, we also had another student driving as well and we had the same results.
3. We tried it in practice matches and we worked well together, the students responded well to my instructions and strategy decisions.

I think the number one most important thing for a coach is experience. Sometimes reactions on the field have to be instinctive and these instincts are developed over time. This is a large reason why mentors are usually adults who have been doing FIRST for a while.

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

Do you have an adult coach or a student coach?
Student

Why?
First off, the mentors won't do it, and have the students pick one. When we use adults as coaches at BattleCry last year, our they didn't suggest anything, and just looked at the student drive team and said "Ask Them".

Do you feel it increases your ranking, winning, and success in matches?
I'm rather biased as I fill that position, but I say it doesn't matter, providing you pick the best person for the job.

Do you feel it enhances your team as a whole?
I guess... Makes the driveteam a far more cohesive group.

Do you feel it enhances the accuracy, precision, and speed in driving and operation?
Yes, but I'm biased.

What downsides are there? None, providing your student coach is smart and assertive enough. In every alliance teams should at some level defer to the best robot. If I'm on an alliance with a really good team, I don't wanna be the one calling the alliance shots, but I'd hope that they take into account what my team wants to accomplish and what my robot is capable off.

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

I completely disagree with you here. To say that a student coach is in no position to argue with an adult coach is to: 1) Minimize the minds and/or abilities that the students have and 2) feed into the mentality that adults know everything - something that we all know is a major fallacy.

It took me 4 years to start voicing my opinion to a professor who's mentored the same teams the same amount of time I have. Before I simply took his word because he was a professor and knew more than I did. Now I want an explanation or I'm going to say that I'm going to go in the direction I want.

As for my first point, in 2001 we had a student who was great at strategy. He took whiteboards with him to the strategy meetings with the other teams and the adults were listening to him. It's simply a question of how prepared are the students to make their points. IMNSHO, the adults that do not listen to the students are simply there to win. I would like to believe that the adults that are there not simply to win treat the competition like they do the build season - listen to the students opinions and guide them if it's required. Perhaps some of the adult coaches (per Sanddrag's original definition) can tell how they operate during the strategy meetings with their alliance partners.

I better get back to work,
indieFan

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

I agree with abe, our coach ( George 1902 ) has been in FIRST for 9 years and experience really pays off. You have a general understanding how complicated the game will be before hand, and a good concept of how it should be played. Plus its the only place mentors get to be on the field. Inspiring students is one thing, inspiring the adults to stay on and be with the team for a while is another lol. Its good to have someone who can be calm and collected on the field. Its always good to let the mentors have some fun too, atleast I've almost always felt that way. Then again it always depends on how your team is set up.

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

Team 213 has an adult coach at the regional competitions and a student coach at the invitationals. Our regional coach is the team advisor and is our school's freshmen football coach. He is very good at seeing where everyone is on the field and knowing where to go next. His decisiveness has helped our team win many matches. During invitationals, students can get a chance to coach in order to learn how it is done. The system works well for us.

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

I became our teams coach this year after the past few years alternating students and adults as coaches. We seem to have found the middle by having the college student, because the students can listen to them better because of a smaller age difference, but they are an adult and thus can keep cool under the pressure. We have a lead strategy student who meets with the other student drive teams to figure out the strategy and i just put it to work.

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

Do you have an adult coach or a student coach?
I am the coach for our drive team, and I am a student.

Why?
Because, we decided that our entire team is to be run by students not adults. Mentors are only there for safety and guidance when it is required.

Do you feel it increases your ranking, winning, and success in matches?
Last I checked, FIRST wasn't about winning or losing, just inspiring science and technology, so we don't keep track. Otherwise we placed 5th in the qualifiers at FLR, entirely with student coaching.

Do you feel it enhances your team as a whole?
Most definitely. Every member of our team feels good that they are contributing the most to the team, and not the mentors. We see a lot of teams where all the adults are doing the work, and students are just watching from the side. We prefer losing with a student run team, then winning with a mentor run one.

Do you feel it enhances the accuracy, precision, and speed in driving and operation?
I don't think there is a difference. The game is a relatively simple concept, every member of the drive team understands it well, and there is very little chance that an adult coach would understand the game better than a student one would. Also the drivers seem to bond a lot better when they are working with one of their peers rather than one of their mentors. This allows them all to be on the same page, and to think as one.

What downsides are there?
We haven't run into any.

Do you feel intimidated or persuaded by adult coaches on your alliance?
Never. I make sure that they don't push me around. We know what our robot is capable of, and how to play to our strengths. If anyone tries to force a plan on us that does not work with our strengths, I let them know. But, if they have a plan that I agree with, and works well with our robot's strength, I have no problem going with it.

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

Do you have an adult coach or a student coach? Our coach this year is an engineer who was a mentor on the team, and who participated on a FIRST team in high school. I do not know if he had drive team experience. Our coach last year was a college student, and the year before.

Why? Just like choosing an able-bodied driver is a very important process, choosing a coach is equally important. A good coach has spent lots of time in the shop over the course of the build season, and has thus formed bonds with the other "live-ins" who become drivers. This year, our coach Joe was a crucial advisor and became coach due to his excellent ability to be decisive and his good understanding of the game, among other things. He gets along very well with students, so the age gap (not that big in the first place) isn't a huge deal.

Do you feel it increases your ranking, winning, and success in matches?
I don't think the age of a coach has that much bearing. It's the ability that counts.

Do you feel it enhances your team as a whole?
There's a bond within the drive team that is very noticeable - our coach not being of high school age doesn't change that bond. He's a good guy with an interesting personality - so yes, a get-along-well drive team enhances team performance and attitude.

What downsides are there?
I don't think there are downsides. The only downside I can see with a college student mentor is the common coincedence of semester exams and Championship dates.

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

Our team keeps entirely all kids on the field, this includes the coach (me). Whenever I discuss match strategy, I always look at the facts rather than who I am talking with. If I don't agree with something out ally says, I will make my voice heard. It does not matter how old the coach is. My team trusts me to make the best decisions in order for our team to perform well. I will never take a back seat in the discussion. Often, I try to lead the discussion when our 3 teams join together to talk strategy and I try to make sure that everyone is heard. That is how our team operates for field strategy, and it seems to be working well ;) .


GO 1403!!!

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

Do you have an adult coach or a student coach?
We had a student coach through qualifications at FLR, and I (college mentor) took over for eliminations.

Why?
I was coach for the team last year. People thought that I was very effective (trying to be as modest as possible, just what I hear). When I came back to mentor to team this year, I told myself that I would not become coach again, and let a student do it. And through qualifications, a student did do the coaching and I was on the sidelines. I noticed that this student wasn't really strategizing before the match, and I was giving him the basic strategy for the match. He wasn't adapting enough during the match to counter our opponent's strategies. So I asked to be put in for elimination matches. Afterwards, I asked for people's opinions and they didn't seem to mind my coaching.

I'm still not convinced that my stepping in was the right move. No doubt that it made me feel special and I would loved to get back behind the driver station. However, in the spirit of the FIRST, I just couldn't see my replacing the existing coach being the right move.

Do you feel it increases your ranking, winning, and success in matches?
I can't really conclude that, since we were eliminated during quarterfinals with a sweep and the student coach held a 6-6 record through qualifying. But IMHO, I think that I was more effective. But this doesn't conclude either way about non-students being better coaches, I just have more experience.

Do you feel it enhances your team as a whole?
Absolutely not. Since two years ago, our team set the precedent that only students will be coaches. I wanted it to stay that way, but apparently the need to win supercedes enhancement of one's team.

Do you feel it enhances the accuracy, precision, and speed in driving and operation?
As I said before, I can't conclude that because I only have such a small base of comparison. Last year, me and the same student coach from this year were switching off during qualifying matches. My drive team was the more effective one, but then I was a student and so was he. So any accuracy, precision, and speed in driving seen during the two matches I coach really has nothing to do with the fact that I'm a college student.

What downsides are there?
Only downside I foresee is that I'm not giving other people a chance to fill this position, but when I stepped in, it was way too late to train another coach, so I was last resort. I hope to run this by my team again and see if they have any problems with college mentors as coaches.

Do you feel intimidated or persuaded by adult coaches on your alliance?
I can't recall a time when I've coached with an overbearing adult mentor. The adult coaches have always been open to the ideas of the other alliance coaches. Though what was said before about adult mentors dramatically overrating the effectiveness of their own robots happens quite often. They generally aren't the coaches for the drive teams, but they are there when drivers meeting to discuss strategy. That's why we always have our own scouting data, which is substantially less biased than their coaches.


Bottom line is that I don't really see any difference in students and adult coaches. I tend to lean towards student coaches because it gets them more involved.

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

Do you have an adult coach or a student coach? Students - Myself and another student. (We switch)
Why? It creates better communication between the drivers, coach, and human player. We all know each other and know the game.
Do you feel it increases your ranking, winning, and success in matches? Oh yes, we won the Buckeye Regional.
Do you feel it enhances your team as a whole? Yes, we have the ability to relate to the entire team of students.
Do you feel it enhances the accuracy, precision, and speed in driving and operation? Yes, I believe that the students know the robot better than anyone.
What downsides are there? Not really any.

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

Our team has a student coach (me). I am very often ignored by adult coaches that think that their strategy is the ultimate strategy that must be followed. It saddens me. How do I get over it? "Can I speak with your drivers please?"

There have been less problems between adults and me this year, I look like I'm 21 even though I'm only 16. People try to talk to my drivers instead of me because they think I'm older.

Whenever I have a problem with an adult coach not listening, and there is no driver available to talk to, I call in my 6'5" teacher advisor to talk strat while I watch. He scares people, just ask any of his students :D .

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

We have an adult coach. I on the other hand after being on the team for four years and a collegiate advisor for two years feel that I should be able to coach. Some of the other advisors agree with me and some disagree. I feel that being in a drivers point of view for four years, I know what it's like to have an adult behind you yelling at you and telling you what to do. Also being on the team as a student allowed me to communicate with my teammates on a one to one level instead of a student adult level. I feel that students that were on the team and back to mentor should be allowed to coach the students because of the experience they've had and they know the students better.

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

Allow me to play devil's advocate for just a moment. This post doesn't reflect my personal opinion, but just consider it.

Think about those overbearing adults. Why are they overbearing? Is it fully them being overconfident in their robot's ability, or do you think maybe they're tired of students who think they know everything going into a match over confident and trying to win with something silly? Do you think maybe they've had maturity issues on their own team with students so they don't want to see that affect the alliance?

Maybe lots of drivers and strat coaches are too cocky. I'm sure every team has had a couple cocky drivers/coaches - they have talent, just very overconfident.

Just a point to consider.

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

Do you have an adult coach or a student coach?
We've had a student coach (me) both years we've been a team.

Why?
I was always standing with the drivers during our practices at home, and I knew the rules best, so the mentors decided to make my position official by making me coach. Plus our mentors feel the drive team should be entirely students.

Do you feel it increases your ranking, winning, and success in matches?
I really don't know. That involves so many factors and I really couldn't analyze them enough to know for sure.

Do you feel it enhances your team as a whole?
Definitely. Students are more comfortable talking to other students most of the time, so if one of our team members has a concern or an idea, they don't feel like they can't approach me to discuss it. Plus, the drivers feel like they can be more frank with me than they could with an adult, which really helps with communication within the drive team.

Do you feel it enhances the accuracy, precision, and speed in driving and operation?
The driving is up to the drivers. I'm there to communicate with the other teams and to plan strategy beforehand. I help them keep track of time and what mode we should be in, but any coach, student or adult, could do that.

What downsides are there?
Being a student coach has few downsides except when it comes to coaches who don't want to listen to your ideas and come up with a mutually beneficial strategy. Whether or not they mean to, some coaches automatically try to take charge when the other coach is a student. So long as the mentors are willing to work together (which the majority of adult and student coaches alike are) and the student coach is assertive enough to speak up, there should not be any problems.

Being a sophomore and having coached for two years (as anyone at Pittsburgh during the finals or awards ceremony will know, thanks to Wayne :cool: ), I think it's a great experience for the student if there is a student competent enough to handle it - or willing to become competent enough. I was really shy last year, but being thrown into the coaching position as a freshman on a rookie team was the best way I could have ever asked for to break my shyness. I'm much more outgoing and assertive now, because of coaching. However, if no students step forward, I don't see anything wrong with having an adult coach.

Adult vs. Student coaches
 

StephLee you are absolutely correct in your post. I couldn't have said it any better. The robot functioning is up to the drivers. You as a mentor are there to guide them in the right direction. As for when you said that it is easier communicating with other students then adults, you are correct. My team tends to approach me more when they need to talk then go to an adult. I was on the team as a student/driver for 4 years then a mentor/advisor for 2 years and i feel that I am able to talk to them in a way that they understand. If adults on other teams could see that we as younger adults are just as capable of comming up with the same ideas and strategies and listen to each other then things would be better.

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

Our team prides itself on being student-run, so we will always have a student coach, but I personally feel an adult or student can be successful with the task. I've been our coach for two years now, and am one of only two students that have been on our team throughout its existance, so in a sense I am similar to an adult coach. I have seen as many matches and participated in as many regionals as any adult on our team.

To me, the key to coaching is communication. The drivers need to be able to trust your judgement, but at the same time be comfortable contributing their ideas. Communication with other coaches is also vital; being assertive but flexible seems to work best for me.

With regards to adults doing well at keeping students calm, I personally feel that on our team anyway a fellow student is more successful. We are able to laugh and joke around as friends before matches, but snap back into serious mode as soon as the match begins.

As a student coach, I do sometimes get adults that try to force their opinions and ideas on me, and at first was intimidated by it, but with a little more experience and confidence I have learned work with those coaches. There is still the odd person who tries to dominate strategy sessions, but that person seems to be a fellow student as often as it is an adult. Our first regional of this season was Arizona, and not once did I encounter a forceful or bossy coach. As an alliance captain and student coach who chose two teams with adult coaches, it was a wonderfull experience talking strategy and developing a game plan because the entire drive team from all three teams was involved, and all team members were listened to and respected.

I too am of the opinion that each team should choose the person right for the coaching job on their team, regardless of age, but never hesitate to approach them with ideas or concerns. I love getting input from adults on my team about my decisions on the field.

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

I personally dont believe adults should be able to coach. If your robot is built by students students should make the decisions in the match. Adults tend to get too caught up in things and become angry. Thats probably why this year no adults or mentors can take up a complaint about a match. My drive team has made some decisions that have gotten us in trouble with our mentors but the results were either that we succeded in blocking the ramp, etc and that the robot got damaged. I have seen adults in between matches while teams were on deck changing batteries or doing some repairs and the students arent involved. If an adult is changing a battery, im going to wonder who built the robot. I dont think adults should be allowed anywhere but the stands.

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

Then I'm glad your not in charge of FIRST!

Except there ARE teams who's robots are designed and built with engineer help, and that can not be changed. That will always be a hot point of FIRST And for now, engineers and adults are allowed to work on the robots.

Ill admit, I mentor my team for 2 reasons. One is for the students, There is NOTHING that compares to hearing them cheer there hearts out for a 120 pound hunk of robot. Second reason: I Love robots. I'm studying electronics so i can do the thing i love as a career. Problem is, as a college student i don't have the means or money to build my own robots, so by mentoring a team, i can get some hands on time and pass my knowledge on, and help build a robot! So take away my ability to be a coach, but don't lock us mentors out of the pits, We like working on robots too, and we put in as many hours in as our students did in our robot.

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

We have had both, but right now we are using an adult "coach"

We do this because, as students, we feel the adults have just as much right to be down on the field and experience the "birds eye view" as any student does, considering they give up just as much time, if not more, than us students.

Like I mentioned earlier, we have had both and it hasnt effected our "ranking, winning, and success in matches", its about the same for both.

I dont understand the question "does it enhance your team as a whole" it allows multiple adults who have given up huge chunks of their lives a chance to have just as much fun as us students ... so if i understand the question: yes.

With respect to "accuracy, precision, and speed in driving and operation?" it just depends on the individual, regardless if it is a student or a mentor. We have had students who have gone down their and watched the matches and said nothing, and we have had adults that do nothing but hollar after the match. Right now our mentor "coach" allows us students to make the stratgy with our alliance partners, and he just lets us know when its time to get back on the ramp, or come back during period switches and play defense.

Their are downsides, but not based off of a mentor vs student comparioson, its all about the individual, and their ability to lead camly and respectably.

when we have had a student coach, those students with bad communications skills are intimidated and persuaded, but I have seen student coaches from our team lead an alliance with two other adult coaches with uncanny skill into a runner-up in our division at nats.

Like I said earlier, its all about the individual. To have some rule where FIRST mandates which you can have is, in my opinion, just stupid. To every team their own!

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

Student coach. I coached last year as a high school senior, and this year I have stepped aside.
We are committed to developing leaders and allowing students access to all of the opportunites team 293 might have to offer.
The effect on ranking varies from year to year. Last year in Triple Play, our all-student drive team got more from our robot than anybody had a right to expect. For most of Raising the Bar in '04, our coaching was atrocious.
Yes.
Last year I believe it did and I am not the right person to ask as far as this year's team is concerned.
Our coaches might be less experienced and student coaches that excel cannot coach after graduation. Then again, if we were mentor-coached, we wouldn't find any excellent student coaches.
I have had a problem with only one other coach in two and a half regionals and one championship event, and he didn't intimidate me. I am persuaded by knoweldgable, intelligent coaches be they students or adults.

Re: Adult vs. Student coaches
 

My team has always had student coaches.

I think its better that way because FIRST is about students. Mentors are there to do exactly that...mentor. They show kids how to build the bot, help them to strategize and fundraise, but when it comes to the actual competition, I think its the students turn to show what they learned.