engineering degrees
 

So I've recently reviewed my academic progress. I figure that I need another 4 semesters to finish a BSEE. That brings the total to 5 years. The existance of the handy little 4-year chart thing means that it's possible to finish in 4 years. Under closer inspection, however, you'll notice that you need to take 17-18 units (roughly 6 classes) for 7 of your 8 semesters. The only reason you don't take that many for one of them is that you don't meet the prereqs for anything else yet. It seems to me, however, that anyone who thinks they can take that many classes is insane. Well...the lower level classes aren't that bad... so you could probably do it for a little while.

In comparison to other majors, engineers do need to take more classes. I need 135 units to graduate. Mortals (business, art, etc) only need 120. Even sciences and math only need 125-130. There's also special GE accomidations for engineering majors. Several GE requirements are simply waived. Engineering Reports satisfies 2 GE requirments. There's also a nice series of classes that engineering majors are recommended to take. They satisfy 18 units of requirements with only 12 units of classes. (The 135 figure uses the 12 units) Lastly, much to my dismay, engineering majors still need to take PE...as in physical education, not professional engineer. Maybe I can get into something easy, like bowling. "Beginning walking" sounds good too.

I pretty much have my mind set on the fact that taking more than 16 units per semester is too hard for me, so don't waste your time trying to pursuade me otherwise. Actually, a few of my classmates think I'm a little crazy for taking even that many. But I would like to ask how many units others are taking/took.

I've also noticed another trend. I started keeping track of my friends from high school that went into engineering. It seems that about half of them have bailed out. I think that only one of them dropped it because he realized that it wasn't what he wanted to do. The others bailed because it was too hard or too long for them. It took one of those guys 5 semesters to fail calc so many times that he finally had to just give up. The thing is, it doesn't seem that hard to me. It's challenging, but not impossibly hard. Has anyone else noticed something like this happening around them?

Re: engineering degrees
 

When I started studying engineering at Ohio State in the fall of 1965, engineering was a 5 year program culminating in a Bachelor of Engineering degree. They had all the freshman engineers in a big room, 900 of us, and told us that when we graduated the person on either side of us wouldn't be there. (For the PC crowd, there were 7 female engineering students among the 900. And don't jump on me, I married a female engineer. :D ). By the time I was graduating, they'd changed to program to take only 4 years and culminate in a Bachelor of Science in Engineering degree since most companies wouldn't pay more for the extra year of study.

Re: engineering degrees
 

I graduated in 3.75 years at WPI because of the quarter system there. You take 3 classes 4 days a week for 7 weeks typically which allows an extra class or 2 per semester compared with normal programs. I found that advantageous for me other people might feel its too rushed.

FYI If you add my co-op in I spent 4.25 years in college.

Re: engineering degrees
 

Back in the dark ages of 1983 many of us graduated engineering school in 4 years.

The one big difference I see today is the cost of college vs. minimum wage, back then you could actually almost afford to work your way thru a state college with a part time job, and take a full load of classes.

Re: engineering degrees
 

Its taking me 5 years to graduate college because of how my program is set up:

From when I start September of Freshman year (year 1) to Graduate April of Senior year (year 5):

- 7 normal sememsters (14 weeks), 16 credit hours = 4 classes
- 2 mini semesters (7 weeks), 8 credit hours = 2 classes
- 2 summer vacations (7 weeks), after freshman year and before senior year
- 3 six-month coops (DEKA, UTC PWA, & Gillette SBMC)

I too noticed a lot of engineers drop out after freshman year. It seems that if you can survive freshman year, you have what it takes to survive the other years. You just really have to want that engineering degree.

So in five years I got:

- An Industrial Engineering degree
- 18+ months of work experience
- Lots of time to do FIRST because I was doing coop from Jan-June

Re: engineering degrees
 

I fit under the criteria of many of your questions. So I will just tell you about my history.

I took a few classes prior to starting college. When entering, I had the ambitions of being a Bioengineer at Penn State. I also heard the remark "Look to your left, Look to your right, one out of three of you will not make it in this program." The average course load for a PSU engineer is 19-21 credits per semester. Do any of them that I know have a life? No. Will they graduate in 4 years? Yes. I however, even with taking 9 -12 credits each summer, could not withstand the demands of engineering. I am now in the College of Information Sciences and Technology. Don't think "oh, that's just IT/Network Admin". iSchools across the country are starting to open up, including two in PA (PSU & Drexel). Our iSchool was the founding emerging technology school. Leading companies including Microsoft, Dell, GE, Lockheed, etc., came in to Penn State to create this new school for the "perfect employee". In an iSchool, one studies engineering, science, math/stat, programming, business, law, and more.

/ end rant

I wish you the best of luck with your decisions. Perhaps picking up a few summer courses will help you graduate "on time".

Re: engineering degrees
 

I go to Kettering, and our system is quite different than many other schools. We participate in a mandatory co-op program -- you need a certain number of 3-month work rotations to graduate. I believe it is 5 work terms, 3 occurring after reaching Junior I status, plus 2 thesis terms. We write and publish a thesis in our bachelor program. By the time I graduate, I will have completed 9 work rotations, have a BSEE and a minor in management. The minor takes me no extra time, if you plan for it correctly. My standard class load, now that I'm a junior, is 20 credits. The school gives you a projected graduation date 5 years after you come in, to accommodate for things such as not being able to find a job or if you have problems and fail classes. We put into 10 weeks what a standard university does in 16-18, and a "light load" is 16 credits. I have to complete 160 credits to receive my BSEE.

Re: engineering degrees
 

The five year program was essentially the standard where i went to school(GT class of '04) and received a BSEE as well. It took 135-138(dont really remember) credits to graduate, so taking the recommended- 15 hours a semester it takes 9 to graduate. When i came in they mentioned in the information session that it is essentially a 5 year program unless you run through summer classes which is how the people who graduated in 4 years did it.
So in summation 5 years is becoming the norm, especially if you want to actually pass(eg EE entry was 600people..graduated roughly 200 of those i came in with) in an engineering program. So it is standard for a lot of people to switch, also a lot of times its because once you get to college and into the major you can realize its not truly what you wanted i nearly switched to ME my junior year until i realized i couldn't afford to make the switch...and thats what grad schools for
Good luck though, just getting out is an accomplishment

Re: engineering degrees
 

This is roughly what the courseload was for a full-time engineering student when I was getting my BSME (I finished in 95). It varied, however, since the 21 credits of freshman and sophomore level classes I took one winter quarter my freshman year was waaaay easier than the 14 credits of lab-heavy senior-level courses (where "1 credit" of lab would take 3 hours in the schedule and another 6 to write it up...) I took my senior year. And all of this was cake compared to the first two years of grad school.

Yes, but that's because there is quite a bit of material you need to learn. As an R+D engineer at a consulting company, in the last two weeks (pulling up my timesheet and looking at my work log), I've done work involving

• Convective heat transfer calculations
• Drag coefficient calculations
• Programming a PIC18F controller (for a non-FIRST application!)
• Designing a distillation column
• Running a residual gas analyzer (Mass Spec)
• Java programming
• Image processing
• Debugging problems in a plate stamping operation

With the exception of the RGA, every one of these items was something I learned as an undergraduate, although many of these skills were sharpened in grad school or on the job. But, while there definitely was some fluff in my engineering education, the vast majority of it turned out to be useful, and I'm glad I had to take classes in it.

Figure out how much of a load you can do without doing things poorly. Then take a little more than that to challenge yourself. But if taking more than 16 credits really means that you'll do all your courses poorly, then, by all means, take 16 credits. Doing it well is more important than just doing it.

This isn't uncommon. Of my group of me and six high school friends that all set out to be engineers (that I can think of off the top of my head), the list includes

• Three engineers (including myself)
• One sysadmin
• An elementary school teacher (who did get his engineering degree and worked for a few years as an engineer)
• A police detective

Some of them just couldn't hack it (if you are having problems with math, for example, then engineering just isn't fun). Some of them learned that they wanted to do something else. And some of them liked engineering itself, but didn't like the hours/the companies/the other people/etc.

Re: engineering degrees
 

Interesting thread. A couple observations:

1. An engineering degree is the only 4 or 5 year degree you can get with which you are considered a 'professional' when you graduate. All other profressional business/medical/educational... careers require at least a Masters degree.

2. Every year since the early 60's we have been hearing the educational standards and level of knowledge of our HS seniors has been dropping (SAT scores, test results...) Over the years they have been making the requirement for a HS diplomia easier and easier. The US is ranked somewhere around 35 when it comes to education compaired to all the countrys in the world.

3. Students and parents need to know all this WAY before HS senior year. If you want to excell in a professional career you need a good education from the time you are a small child. Programs like FIRST are intended to light a fire under people to get them motivated, but you will need more than a B average from a public HS to sail through an engineering program at a good university.

4. The 66% dropout rate for engineering is correct. You gotta know WHAT you want in college, and you have to really want it. FIRST also goes along way towards that end. Many students drop FIRST after one year, realizing this is not what they want. Investing 6 weeks is much better than investing one year at a $20,000 per year university.

Re: engineering degrees
 

You have a source on that? Both personal experience and various studies I've seen suggest attrition rates around 10 percent a year, resulting in around 60% eventually graduating with an engineering degree.

The best study I've seen was a longitudinal one: Moller-Wong, C. and A. Eide, "An Engineering Student Retention Study," Journal of Engineering Education, vol. 86, no. 1, 1997, which found that for 1,151 students that started engineering, 5 years later 1,151 engineering enrollees at Iowa State University. They found that after five years, 32% of their subjects had graduated in engineering, with another 15% still enrolled enrolled in engineering , for an eventual graduation rate between 40% and 45%. And this paper talked about reasons why Iowa State's retention rate was lower than normal.

Not much better than your number, but definitely better.

So yes, high dropout rates in engineering are not uncommon. And longer than 4 years is very common as well (I finished in 4 calendar years, only 3.5 of which I was a student, but I had a boatload of AP transfer credit going into college).

Re: engineering degrees
 

I don't have a resource for the national average, or one that only includes students from the US (deleting foreign students from the percentages).

It depends on what engineer degree you are after, and what school you attend. Many students switch engineering degrees (some are easier than others). Some university's will let in just about anyone and take their money for a year or two, then flunk out (weed out) many of the students. Other schools are more realistic about who they admit, to ensure they are not wasting resources on students who are not prepared or up to the challenge.

I know my post sounds discouraging, that was not my intent. I have found that most people, if they know what they want to do and are willing to work for it can accomplish almost anything. Its the ones who don't really know where they want to go, and who think the can drift along and magically end up somewhere wonderful, who don't make it.

When I got to see Dean's house at the Manchester kickoff meeting a few years ago, he had a poster hung up in his 'lookout tower' - a picture of a lighthouse in a storm. The caption says "All the lights in the world cant guide you, if you don't know where you are going.".

Engineering is a tough degree to achieve. You gotta want it, and you must work hard to earn it. Thats part of the reason engineers are paid so much. When you walk out of a university with that degree in hand, you have proven you are able to take on a difficult task, and to work independently to succeed.

Re: engineering degrees
 

Each individual needs to evaluate their abilities to study and perform. There are students that can take heavy loads semester after semester and perform. Many can't. You have to find your balance. Which is better? to graduate in 4 years with C's or 5 years with A's and B's. My son is in his first year of ME and has described it as like having a full time job that requires allot of over time. He's taking 18 credits. He's taking one course this summer to maintain the track he wants. I've agreed to support him financially for the loss income that working that time would have provided. The other thing about engineering degrees is that the focus is so narrow that you don't get courses in area that may be needed later in carers. Business law, project management and accounting, certain maths, and others. Extending a year can allow a little more enrichment.

Re: engineering degrees
 

Well, it appears things are a bit different in Engineering Schools in Brazil and in the USA. I'll just point out the differences for comparison.

All Engineering courses here last 5 years.
I'm graduating in EE and I'm required to have 244 credits by the end of the tenth semester, which means I have to maintain an average of 24.4 credits/semester. Seems a bit more than in the US.
Considering the last two semesters are basically for an Internship and a Final Project, the first eight semesters are actually a lot more dense than the 24.4 cred/semester - Maximum for me has been 34 credits in one semester.

I don't know in the US, but here we have a somewhat broad formation (after the European, French, more specifically, model - or so I'm told) with economics, law, administration and biology classes. They are really basic classes and with few credits, but it may add up in the long run; I don't think that this huge difference in credits is only due to that, though.

More specific to the School I go to: Again after the French model, the engineering course is very deep in theory, with the practical classes being dedicated to the demonstration of the theory, rather than preparation for work in industry or something like that.
Professors tell us our course is more focused on graduating Development Engineers rather than Application Engineers.
It's a good thing, I guess, but it does leave a big void in our formation that will have to be filled sometime.

The thing in common seems to be the high dropout rate: Of the 50 people (48 men) that entered the EE course with me, four years ago, only 5, including me, are at the correct level - that is, seventh semester. I'd estimate 40% have dropped out and the rest is behind.

To finish, the EE course at my school is the third best in the country (first one, excluding the military schools) and we're usually told it is as good as other courses in the USA or Europe, though a bit behind technology-wise.

The real difference is in the graduate courses, where the US, mainly, excels.

Anyone wants to broaden the discussion to include the graduate level? ;)

Re: engineering degrees
 

Students considering getting engineering degrees need to understand that getting that degree is going to be hard. Most likely the hardest thing they've ever done in their lives. It's not for the weak.

I try to do my best to persuade people to go to college (esp. engineering school), but I always tell them how hard it is. I want to prepare them for those days when they think that they can't do it. Everyone always thinks that they're the only one having a hard time - I usually like to make them aware that everyone is thinking that.

Once people decide to go, I usually say something like: "Be prepared: it will be the hardest thing you've ever done. You will serioulsly (and I mean seriously) contemplate quitting at least twice per semester. You will learn how to eat while reading while getting dressed and talking on the phone - you need to do this so you can create another 30 minutes of sleep time so you can get 6.5 hours of sleep per night. You will also always seem like you're behind and that you never really learn something until about two weeks after it has been covered in class. You will feel like you can't go on. As bad as all of that is, everyone goes through it. If you want it, you can do it. Just remember me saying how it's going to be so when it gets that bad, you know that everyone experiences that and people can and do pull through it."

I had that talk with a friend of mine that will graduate (at age 31) with his bachelor's degree in archetecture this May. He has since told me that he went through all of the tough times, conteplated quitting many times, and then thought back to the above speech and said it really helped him get through it.

Wow that was long. I guess the moral of the story is: IT IS GOING TO BE EXTREMELY HARD. What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Engineering school makes you pretty strong.

Re: engineering degrees
 

What Chris said is true, and its important. When you are really struggling and you think "I cant do this" - it helps to know that everyone else is going through the same thing. Have confidence in yourself.

Re: engineering degrees
 

It's very hard. But it will get easier.

We needed 130 credits at UofMich, where my friends in Chemistry only needed 120. I ended up taking 133 because a) I screwed up in my schedule and b) I decided I wouldn't drop the class I took by accient. (It was ergonomics - and that's really cool).

I did it in 4 years. I fought through the "weeder" classes. I studied alot. I took alot of "project" type classes so I was doing alot of research and development work outside of lectures.

I say it gets "easier" - but I think you just figure out how to learn and work. My Masters degree was the easist degree to get. I think it was easier than high school. That's not to say the material was easy. It was more complex than anything I have ever done. But it was something I enjoyed, so I liked working on it - made it easy.

SO - BASICALLY - If you enjoy engineering (or whatever), it gets "easier".

Kind of like the hardest fun you'll ever have.

Re: engineering degrees
 

I took 5 years to get my BSME in '80. Mainly because I was working 30 hours a week to pay for it.

I consider my time in college the most challenging and rewarding thing I have done, until recently.

Yes, it is hard. If it wasn't hard, you probably wouldn't be doing it.

Re: engineering degrees
 

BSE or AB, college is as challenging as you make it.