Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

I have been on my current team (125) since september. We are not at any means a large team (now, at one point we had over 100 members). I come from a team of extended success (11). Team 125 has one major accomplishment, 1 national championship in 2001. At regionals however, their success is absolutely 0. Never won a regional, never a chairmans, judges, spirit, or any of the other awards. Team 125 has been in existance for 9 years. I was just wondering, are there any other teams out there, who have been in a "awardless" drought if you will?



p.s. - i am not whining or anything, i am just curious to see if any other veteran teams have had such a drought at regionals. the numbers would point you in a direction that winning something should have occured.

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

Your team got the Woodie Flowers Finalist award in 2004 at MD.

I do know teams that have been around a good number of years and have never won any award. DarkJedi613 has a database of all FIRST team awards at http://www.team358.org/files/team_lookup/public/ you can download and search to your heart's content, or you can use his search engine at http://www.team358.org/files/team_lookup/ .

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

I consider the Woodie Flowers Award to be honoring an individual, not a team. In my opinion, Brandon is not out of line to ignore it when figuring the length of 125's "drought".

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

A possible solution to this might be to particularly focus your efforts in one area...in a sense, doing a few things really well rather than everything "so-so." Just because a team doesn't win many awards doesn't mean they aren't a good team; however, awards tend to recognize teams with great features rather than overall solid programs. I would say the important thing is the impact the team has on the people involved, not just the awards that are accumulated (although I will admit that awards are definitely nice motivators :) ).

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

the X-cats had not won a regional from 1992 through 2004. last year was thier first win ant FLR. thats what id call a drought

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

its good but does need some updates, 1126 won newton division in 2004 not 2003

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

I know this doesn't fit in exactly with the thread topic (no awards vs. no victories), but I felt it has to be said....

48 has never won a regional in its entire 9 year existence, and we never, ever, ever, ever, ever will.....especially this year......especially not in Mississauga in 5 days. In fact, I don't know what I'd do if we ever won. I'm scared to death of winning and would like to keep our drought intact for eternity. I do not wish to anger the robot gods by upsetting the balance of competitive equilibrium and harmony they've sought to enforce over the past decade of our existence.....

(shhhhh.....reverse psychology.....) :rolleyes:

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

True. I didn't mean it as a team award in that sense, and I agree it doesn't really apply to Brandon's original point.

I was thinking more of the team pride that an award engenders, even one any individual member receives, as something they would be proud to list as an accomplishment, especially since it was a team submission in honor of that outstanding individual.

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

125 and other teams in a "drought" situation must look at the big picture. We know we are doing a great job in FIRST. This year a lone we helped start 7 rookie teams in the Boston area. We have 5 high schools that we must reach out and help bring to our lab.

We all have a great sense of pride for our team, but who wouldnt want to be recognized for their efforts. I feel bad for this team, constantly watching others win awards, who do deserve it, but never being able to go and shake the hands of the judges, and grabbing that plastic trophy and hoisting it into the air. One would think in their 9 years of existence and regional experience, they would have come away with 1 such award.



As for concentrating our efforts, we have done our best. I feel we have always been in the running for such awards, but, there is always a team who is able to convey their message of FIRST a little better.

But no worries, myself and team 125 are going to go to every regional with the same sense of pride we always have. Like I said earlier, we are by no means a large team, but the amount of pride and trust we have in each other would definalty point you in a different direction....

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

I think you've struck upon an important component of getting recognized for awards - effective and energetic communication. The team members who spend the most time interacting with judges should be those who are best equipped to "tell the story" of your program, your people, and your robot. Some teams will only permit students to perform this task, and while they are certainly the ones who get the most out of your team and benefit the most from speaking to these professionals, they aren't the only ones with great stories to tell and experiences to share. We feel we have a good balance of participation among all our team members, and therefore, we've found good success in involving multiple people in our judge conversations. We often encourage mentors, teachers, parents, sponsors, and alumni to join the students in sharing their thoughts with the judges if they have relevant information and ideas to contribute to the current topic of conversation. I believe this diversity in communication has helped earn us a few more awards than we would have otherwise received had students alone handled all the talking.

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

Yeah but I think they mean any awards and we are instantly discounted becasue we won the biggest award of all.
Twice.

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

True true :D

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

Team 125 also won the national competition in 2001, like i said...but i am specifically talking about regionals, and about awards

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

Is winning an award such an important thing? Why can't members of a team just be happy with putting engineering to the test, and every year pumping out a highly sophisticated robot in six weeks?

Sure, awards are nice to shove in the display case, but the point of FIRST is to enjoy yourself. Not every team can win a regional or an award, but everybody can certainly have fun and be proud of the work they've done.

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

Mentoring a rookie team was the best experience I ever had in FIRST; of course, it was cool that 1975 won Rookie Inspiration (I stood up, screamed, hugged the girls, and shook hands with all the judges while wearing my Boston Planning Committee attire), but what was cooler was that I WAS NOT WITH QUEEN AT THE REGIONAL TO HELP THEM!

I was there every meeting during build season, but the girls did it themselves during the regional with the help of ONLY two other college mentors.

I remember the first week when the girls asked me, wide eyed, "Are you here to help us build the robot???" Five weeks (not six, we lost a week) and some major personal credit card debt later QUEEN churned out a rather competitive robot and even more competitive girls. They loved it, they were inspired, they showed up to every meeting, they can fix the robot themselves, they've learned to ask questions, use tools correctly, and dream big.

In turn, QUEEN taught me that I can dream big, and helped me re-realize my passion for robotic products.

All I can say is that when a FIRST student leaves High School and becomes a college "mentor" the feeling of seeing high school students work on the robot should be reward in itself. Regional FIRST awards are nice, but if the high school students aren't supportive of winning it, if they aren't doing the work, then the team doesn't deserve to win it, and "how long the team has been in FIRST" doesn't matter.

NU-TRONS, you had a breakup and rebirth during the 2002 season, so consider yourself a FOUR year old team. Many of the members from 2001 and before are not involved anymore (except George Perna, but he's cool and he's one of the reasons 125 survived the 2003 season during the team's reorganization).

I posted this information because I am a Northeastern Student, and I'd like for the NU-TRONS to be successful in winning competitions and awards, but 125 needs rethink their goals and better align them with the ideals of FIRST before true inspiration and success settles in.

I go to Northeastern, I love it, and since 2004 the NU-TRONS has been heading in a positive direction with their goals. They just aren't all the way there yet and could use experienced High School students to apply to NU, step up as team leaders, and help them with Chairman's, awards, and building competitive robots. The NU-TRONS do have potential, but younger college mentors tend to confuse the real purpose of FIRST with "lets go build a cool robot!!"

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

Team 22 has always been successful. From 1999 till 2005 we won something at either regionals or nationals. but this year we didn't get anything at the one regional we attended, hopefully we get lucky at nationals!!!!!

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

Erin, honestly how can you come on here and directly insult OUR team. I started this thread to point out an interesting observation I have seen since I came to the NU-Trons. I am glad that 1975 was so successful, and that it makes you proud. The NU-Trons are proud for you, and all of the work you did for the Boston Regional. Which turned out to be awesome by the way.

However, the "flaws" in the NU-Trons that you pointed out, are exactly what makes this team unique, and what makes this team not another. Like you so gracefully pointed out, we had a breakup and rebirth in 02, and since then have struggled to keep a constant high school base. We have tried as hard as we could to gain a massive high school following, even if that means reaching out to 5 high schools to gain members. With more high schoolers comes the need for more mentors, so we not only reached out through Northeastern, but through Wentworth and Lesley. It is not easy for a tiny group of people to stretch that far and keep everyone involved, but this year...we did.

As for members changing, and shuffling, look at our base.....We are a college based team. Think about your team back home, or other teams based purely in high schools. The mentors are parents and engineers and are able to put time in year after year. In college however, people graduate, get jobs, and just need to keep up with classes. On top of all that, Northeastern has it twice as bad with co-op just because some mentors may simply not be able to attend a build season. However, thanks to George AND Don (our current mentor, who is an awesome awesome guy) we have been able to assemble a core team, and have grown dramatically this year.

As for your comment about being a 4 year team...i guess those 5 previous years just did not happen...And for us college mentors, I honestly want to know what you expect. WE ARE NOT SENIOR MENTORS with a mass of engineering experience, however we are the mentors of the team. We do our best, with the knowledge we have, to show these high school students what FIRST and engineering is all about. The claims you make are based off of what observations?? I recall you being at maybe 2 meetings during the build season. These high school students know just as much about robotics, engineering, and FIRST IDEALS as any other team in the FIRST organization.

For the chairman's awards that you speak of, this is a very amazing feat only the best of the best FIRST teams are recognized with. If you think I do not know the ideals of FIRST, maybe you can talk to team 11, where we won a chairman's award just last year.

This post you submitted was a direct hit at me and the other "younger" college mentors. When you come from a high school team, your goal is to particpate, learn, and become an excellent FIRST participant. For the few who have done this, transitioning from high school to a college mentor is no easy feat. At Northeastern, we are under constant pressure from the university to build a "cool robot", and every year, we manage to build a "cool robot". This year was a massive leap from previous years, where your participation may have been substantial. We were able to join together many parts and bring them into one family, the NU-Trons. From the high schoolers, who have learned more in a year, than they have their entire previous lives, to the college mentors, who have learned not only to reach out with their hands, but their hearts, to the university, which has learned, that an awesome robot comes 2nd to the education people receive in this program.

FIRST is about not just the high schoolers, however they are a massive part. Without the other parts, the high schoolers would just be high schoolers. What makes them educated FIRST particpants is the mentors, sponsors, and peers coming together around a ROBOT, to learn more than they could imagine......as a group. I hope that you seriously re-read your post, as it is not only critical of our work, but hurtful to those who put COUNTLESS hours into this program.

This thread started a simple observation, and I apologize to everyone, for this argument, but what I said, needed to be said...

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

being a "young college mentor" we have provided a spark that this team was lacking, a way to motivate the limited number of high school students that are on the team, as opposed to the past few years where there was no team unity. Our driver said this year, and i quote " out of the 4 Manchester's Ive been to, this is the first that i have had fun at". you may think that we are misguided but according to the kids on the team we are right on track. From talking to senior members on the team this is the first year that there was scouting, people in the stands, knowledgeable kids in the pits, and a genuine interest on the high school part. These kids are now PROUD to be NuTRONS, as well as learning something along the way.

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

Our team has never won any award nor won any regional but we have been getting more competitive in all fields. I argee in dedicating your efforts to one award at a time. Though our team has never won any awards we have done a lot better. For example we actually have a website the works now.

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

I definetly agree that having only one or two people talk to the judges can hamper your chances at winning an award. What we do on our team is we make sure that there is always at least one student from each major subteam involved in the conversation with the judges. For example, one time the judges asked me how our shooter worked, and since I designed the shooter, I knew how to explain the mechanism in specific and concise terms. But when they asked the question "How did you program it to track the goal with the camera?", I didn't stumble on my words trying to explain what little I knew about the progamming. Instead I directed their attention straight to our head programmer, who, as planned, was standing right next me. This makes for a much smoother and efficient conversation, which is what will make a good impression on the judges.

Another thing to remember is that Judges aften come around to the pits during lunch. So make sure that you always have your main judging crew near your pit to make sure you don't miss a Judge. At Sacromento, we ate lunch in the stands above the pits and whenever we saw a Judge come by we rushed down to our pit to make sure the Judge didn't move on to the next team.

It's been 10 for us, but we always seem to be getting closer. Last year was our first time even getting to the finals, and then this year we got to the finals as well as went 10-0 in qualifiers at SVR. We keep building off of past success and learning from our past mistakes, and the results are very noticeable. One thing our team hasn't had a drought in though is awards. I don't know why, but we always seem to win something or another at every regional. This year we actually upped it and won two at each regional. :p

I think that explaining exactly how your robot works and emphasizing how it is creative and unique is key to winning the judges vote. If you come across as boring or unprepared, the judges won't remember you, and most likely won't give you an award for your efforts.

Mike C.

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

MORT~11,

Good Points! I agree that I may have confused the interactions and observations I had about the NU-TRONS from previous years with this year's team. I was, indeed, impressed with how 125 pulled themselves together this year with Don's help and the enthusiasm of upcoming NU students from other FIRST teams (like yourself). Do note in my post that I said "Team 125 has potential" and "that as a Northeastern Student I do wish for my HOME TEAM to win more awards and be successful in the future."

It takes years for a team to build an identity and because I came from a National Chairman's team in high school to a team who was falling apart, I had personally witnessed and understood the "hole" the NU-TRONS had dug themselves into. This had all happened before Don arrived and he's doing a good job to repair it.

Please understand my internal/external point of view in saying that some people have a perception of NU-TRONS, that they may not care to know the exact details, or that their perceptions are probably wrong; but, it may take 125 extra effort and time to change their luck for the better.

All I'm doing is trying to convey some constructive criticism...
I hope - to some extent - it helps.

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

I think if its a goal of your team to get an award - you stand a good chance of it. This year we thought we built a decent robot - but were unsure if it would be good enough to win a regional outright. So we put a little time and effort into making our pit area look nice, printing up literature about our robot and team, made a display board about our control system, set up a video playing some highlights of our robot and team, and then making sure the captain's of the team stuck around to have nice long conversations with the judges. Finally we earned an award, the Motorola Quality Award. We also finished 2nd to get a Finalist Award as well. It felt real good to finally earn an award. In 2002 we got Finalist at SVR, but we're broke and it was really our alliance that earned it. In 2004 we got the Sportsmanship Award in Sacramento - I'm still not sure how or why we got that one. Winning a regional is unfortunately overblown I think, it takes almost a perfect robot and/or some luck along the way. 114 is a great example - their robot is awesome and they've proven it by going 10-0 at SVR and winning records at Portland and Davis as well - but they have an a lot to be proud of this year.

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

I know just what you mean. I'm like that. Anyhoo, I think that team 85 has won an award most of the years that we have been around. I'm not sure about every year but, I just don't know. Mark please feel free to correct me. Also congrats to you on your rookie award.

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

Our team has won some good awards... but never won a regional...

2006 CA Delphi "Driving Tomorrow's Technology"
2006 AZ GM Industrial Design
2005 CA Woodie Flowers Regional Award
2005 CA Engineering Inspiration Award
2005 AZ RadioShack Innovation in Control Award
2004 AZ DaimlerChrysler Team Spirit
2004 CA Regional Chairman's Award
2003 AZ Engineering Inspiration Award
2003 CA Finalist
2003 CA J&J Sportsmanship
2001 CA1 Imagery
2001 CA1 Regional Champion
2001 NAT National Champions
2001 NAT Division Champion - Newton

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

Emphasis mine. Don't discount yourself so quickly ;) .

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

Emphasis mine instead :D

National Champs is a bit more important than a simple regional!

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

The way I see it Team 100 has gone the opposite direction of most teams. We started off as veterans, winning nationals our first year and then slowly but surely divulging into rookie-hood until we hit rock bottom in 2005. For three years we won nothing.

But 2006 was a good year, and we won two awards. Maybe this is the turning point?

As for me, I would just like to qualify for nationals!

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

if i remember correctly, Team 93 just recently won their first regional in 10 years i believe.

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

Lol... i cant believe i missed that regional win. I knew about nationals, but never heard about that regional.... kinda embarassing..


Well, atleast no students and all but one mentor were on the team then that are now :/

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

166 hasn't won a single regional in it's 11 year history, unless you count Battlecry 4 as a regional.

Play of the Day at the 2002 UTC regional was the first award they won since starting in 1995.

I feel the same way! I want to actually qualify rather than get in because of Tiers.

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

and they are the only team to ever win the national chairmans award twice, which (I think) says that they are an excellent team, they have their priorities straight, and have influenced the lives of thousands of HS students directly over the years!

THE debate that continues year after year on CD is whats best for the team vs whats best for the students - professional highly competitive robots or student build, student designed...... Im not going to open that debate in this thread

but I only want to point out (and I dont think many will disagree with this part of it): what is best for the students as individuals is not the path you will take if your primary goal is to win a regional or the championship.

for examples: to reach the most students possible you would not allow any student to be on the team for more than one year, so other students would have the opportunity to participate. To reach the most number of students you would keep branching off new teams, streaching your resources and mentor involvement as thin as possible. To give the students the best exposure to engineering you would have them do different things each year, instead of allowing them to specialize in one aspect of the robot design/build. You would let the students be responsible for as much of the design and build as they could handle, and then push them further out of their comfort zone.

If you disagree with this please dont jump in and turn this thread into another Mentor or Student... debate

My point is, if you are not winning the regionals that does not mean you have a lousy team. It could be a clear indication that you have an excellent team.

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

i'm almost afraid this year. with so many teams, and all of our 4-year seniors going, about 1/2 our team is gone. makes me wonder if we'll be able to step up to the plate and get our success going. yikes.

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

Don't be so worried about it. We lost 12 seniors after the 2004 game. The following year we built an excellent robot that we are all proud of. It didn't win any competitions, but it was a lot better than the previous year's robot.

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

I have been bashed repeatedly on my team for saying this so I wonder if you will agree:

"Last year we tried building something that was beyond our means. We didn't poses the resources or the know-how to achieve what it was we wanted to build. As a result, the end-result was a disaster."

"Do we dare build something as complex this year? Build it because we shall learn from the experience? Or, should we learn from our mistake last year and pursue a simpler design? Maybe we won't learn as much from the simpler design, but hey! At least we've learned from our mistakes!"

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

I am not Ken Wittlief, but I do agree with you. :)

Engineering is all about drawing upon past failures to prevent future ones. This is how we, as human beings, learn. You did this as a child, learning how to walk. You do this as an adult, learning how to make your way through the world.

After realizing that the complexity of last year's design was beyond your team's means, the best engineering decision your team can make is to go for something simpler next year. While some members of the team may claim that designing too complex will be a learning experience, it is not a good model for the real world of engineering. A good engineer recognizes design limitations (the more complex a project is, the more time and resources it demands), and stays within those limitations. One can't go over budget or miss the deadlines.

Your team has limits too, whether it is time, money, or people. All teams do - and each team should recognize those limits in order to be successful and minimalize the stress on each of the members.

And remember, many times, the simple design is the best design. You will be less constrained, and less likely to break down. An elegant, yet simple design is good material for judges awards - many of the award winning designs from my old team were fairly simple mechanisms.

Good luck!
-- Jaine

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

The primary component of engineering is the engineering design cycle. The first step is to clearly identify the problem you are going to solve (in our case, understanding how to play the game)

the second step is brainstorming ways to solve that problem. you come up with a big picture solution, then you break that down into smaller parts (subsystems)

this should all be done within the first week after the kickoff. Working out the details of the subsystems might run into the second week.

If you are sitting there at the end of the first week and you dont have a clear plan (a design goal, a schedule, manning and resources, and something like an overall block diagram) then you have walked your team into a project with a task right in the middle called "A miracle happens here".

There is no time for research in the 6 week FIRST design cycle. If you dont know how you will implement (design and build) something at the end of the first week, you still wont know how to do it at the end of the 6th week.

Serious research and invention heavy designs should be done in the off season.

What you went through is exactly why the engineering design cycle exists - you cant wing it - you have to follow a clear process with well defined steps.

Risk assessment is crucial in this program. If you have a great idea but have no idea how to build it, then your risk is 100% - you could get halfway through the 4th week and discover its impossible to do what you wanted - then you have to start over. There is no time for that.

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

This is similat to what we did this year. The team decided as a group to try a number of new things this year, simply because we wanted to push our limits and capabilities. The end result: 27th seed (not picked for finals) at SVR and 83rd (of 86) in Galileo.

Was the team discourage? No, in fact, they were quite pleased. Sure we probably could have done better, but the experience we gained offset most disappointment.

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

So you're saying that with good planing and time management anything is possible (no sarcasm intended)? I'll buy that.



This seems like the start of a new thread.... Maybe we ought to get back on topic...

And so I'll ask a more relevant question. This one has puzzled me as well.

Do winning teams really exemplify the high standards of FIRST? Are the teams that win the most awards really those that best live up to FIRST's mission? Or do you feel that there are plenty of teams that deserve these awards just as much if not more? (plz, no names or numbers, just your opinion).

Very relevant to droughts.

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

we are dancing on the edge of THE DEBATE with this: there are teams that feel the best way to inspire the students is to lean heavily in the Mentor Designed direction - building a super machine that will wow the team, and everyone else who see it in action

and there are teams who lean more towards Student Designed / student built... with the mindset that having the students involved in every aspect, as much as possible, will inspire them the most.

The PC thing to say is that both methods are within the spirit of FIRST, there are advantages to both philosophies.

Without getting into THE DEBATE, I think its clear that two teams with equal resources, and equally skilled mentors, the one that takes the Mentor Designed path is most likely to show up with the state of the art, professional designed and manufactured robot - with the best odds of winning.

Do they deserve to win? That feels like a loaded question. There have been many discussions over the years on this: should we have different classes of competition? Student-only built robots and mentor built robots, mixed design, rookie vs rookie teams....

I cant answer that question, I can only offer my opinions. I can only tell you my preferences for the way I would want my team to function.

I guess the bottom line is that FIRST decides what the awards are. You get what you reward. Engineering is about striving for the best system possible, so it would be weird if FIRST was like T-ball, we all play the game but no body keeps score, then we all get a trophy at the end.

If FIRST didnt think winning the regional was something to be acknowledged and rewarded, then we would not have the type of competitions that FIRST created - they would come up with something different.

good planning means you have a schedule and a path, and you know how you are going to get from start to finish. So, I guess yes, a good plan would have to be a real plan, a realistic sequence of steps that your team can follow.

So if you can generate a good plan for it, then anything is possible.

Re: Longest droughts in FIRST history
 

116 was created at SLHS in 1996. We moved to HHS in 1999. We didn't win our first award until Week 5 of the 2003 season (at an event we didn't actually attend, crazy old animation rules), when we won our first Autodesk Award for Visualization at the Lonestar Regional. In our first 11 years, we still lack a regional championship. In fact we lack ANY form of championship (no NAT, CMP, or even Off-Season sucess).