The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

The Niagara Triplets seem to win every regional they are at and have a great design. So, what do you think? This thread is not meant to become an argument. Please just state what you think and why.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) out there in 2006?
 

Individually, are they the best teams?

Maybe.

They're so good together because hardly any regional champions have been able to put together an alliance that has two really good shooters.

Together, to date they're obviously the best.

Alone they're still pretty darned good, but would be much less dangerous without a second scoring threat to take some heat off of them.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) out there in 2006?
 

They are among the best teams, they are extremely effective however at championships they have other teams at the same level as them. There is no doubt that they are a force to be reckoned with and I would not be surprised to see at least 1 on Einstein.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) out there in 2006?
 

I dont want this post to sound demeaning, but I am really curious.

With a triplet alliance such as the Niagara three's say one team goes out and gets #1 seed, another one of the bots is a sleeper somewhere in the top 20, and the other triplet plays awful and ends up in last place. Now #1 would pick the #2 triplet, and then they pick the #3 as thier last pick. Idea being that the "bad bot" just plays dumb all weekend and then when they get into the playoffs they are a force to be reckoned with.

Does anybody see this as a way to sabotage a regional? I mean it's not illegal in anymeans, but do you think anybody would do this?

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) out there in 2006?
 

A great design concept, probably the best of the season.

Robust, reliable construction.

Extremely effective autonomous.

229/217/4 gave 1114/1503/865 the best run yet; it wasn't enough.

The Niagara Triplets rock!

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) out there in 2006?
 

Alone they are good but there are many other teams that have great shooters 469, 217, 111, 494, 70, and you can keep going. Together their almost unstoppable, but if you had two of any of the other teams I listed working together you would get the same result.

Not to insult them they have AMAZING robots, but because there are three of them opinions that they are the best may be unintentionally bias.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) out there in 2006?
 

It could be done. I can't see it happening though.

Another team would probably pick the low seeded one just to keep 3 of them from getting together.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) out there in 2006?
 

They could try but it would not have worked for this long, after the first regional teams would catch on remember their are 14 picks between the first and second picks of the first seed, even a triplet that seemed to have trouble would be picked up before that.


James


(also note that the triplets have no need to try anything less than honest to win they seem to do just fine the way they have been playing.)

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) out there in 2006?
 

Exactly what I was thinking. Championships is a whole nother game. I don't think the triplets have had to against some truly powerfull defensive robots (710 comes to mind).

With that said they have come up with the best robot I have seen this season (111 is a close 2nd) and would not be surprised if one of the makes it to Einstein.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) out there in 2006?
 

You'd have to think very hard before not using your pick to take a Triplet if one is available.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

The triplets are amazing. Together they are highly efficient, they also have a good design. However, teams are different everywhere. If in the other regionals there were better shooters, would the triplets have won? maybe, maybe not. It depends on the strategy and the way matches are played. The triplets are some of the best bots this year and play well together and individually.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) out there in 2006?
 

1114 and 1503 already played a very good offensive alliance in 217 and 229. 4 was also a very effective defender at SoCal, and GTR.

They'll play some better shooters in atlanta, but they flat out dominated an excellent alliance in the last 2 rounds of the semis.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

Is 1680's ticket punched for Atlanta yet?

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

25, anybody? They are putting up around 85 points per match at Vegas. Vegas is not a very strong regional, so they are probably scoring most of those points themselves.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

I was just watching the triplets and team 25 at the same time. All of these teams are said to be some of the best. The triplets, IMHO, are far superior than anyone out there!

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

Actually, according to everything posted on CD, 987 is a very strong shooter as well.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

Yeah, I'm watching the quarters on Webcast and 987 and 25 are putting on a shooting demonstration. It's not just 25.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

Well The Niagra Triplets just took GTR by storm well 2/3 of them anyway =) congrads to all the triplets making it to the finals. All I can say is wow - their shooting mechanism and ball catching bin was awesome. Is there anything these girls can't do =)

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

Very strong doesn't mean as good as.

Average points from qualifying matches, top 5 teams:
25: 80.45
987: 57.36
585: 47.45
230: 44
79: 42.82

Entire Regional: 30.69

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

Right...but 25 obviously isn't carrying the alliance when they have a robot that's scoring more by itself than most alliances score in an entire match.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) out there in 2006?
 

Yep, like we tried to do in Waterloo. They still won though =).

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

wow, i started the thread and did not say what i thought.

i feel that the Niagara Triplets are very good individual robots. they score quickly and you have to be on them the entire match to stop them. this is very similar to many other teams (254, 111, 1126, 67, 25,...). so, as individual robots they are very good, and partnered together they are nearly unstoppable.

other thoughts?

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

987 is a fine robot and it would not be proper to say they were "carried" to victory on any alliance (please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe I ever said that they were). However, 25 didn't get to play with 987 in every match of qualification where they were dropping 81 per match.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

any videos of these beasts?

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

Wow, those robots look really nice. They're all identical from what i see though, which confuses me--did the team build them together, or is it just a coincidence.

Anyways, i'm not sure about this triplet thing, all they all in one alliance?
Also, if a team qualifies for the nationals in multiple alliances in mutliple regionals, which alliance do they compete in at the nationals?

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

It's my understanding that they were jointly designed by all three teams and built by the indivudual teams.

The alliances in Atlanta are completely new alliances. The 4 divisions are played like regionals and the winning alliances of the divisions go on to play for National Champion.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

For a good description on the design process of the triplets check out this thread, Karthik's posts describe the process and the reasoning behind working together.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

its pretty hard to not have a good alliance who have the same robot, know each others strengths and weaknesses, and have strategic moves designed for their alliance. But, is dat not wat every alliance should be, (not the same robot) but teams are suppose to adapt to each other and come up with a winning alliance..........I give it up to them though...........they are out to win......i think they could care less about our criticism or our praise because they are out for the Big W in atlanta with or without eachother.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

Who else thinks it would be interesting to see each of these teams as part of 3 different alliances at Nats, and then have them end up having to play each other? Who knows what strategies will be come up with when you know every aspect of one of the opposing robots.

The Triplets are some of the best teams in FIRST, but they are SOME of the best teams. There are many superb teams, but I don't think there is any single "best" team; every team has a weakness I'm willing to bet one other robot in FIRST could beat them with.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

Remembering of course that all three will probably not be in the same division.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

Having faced 1114 and 1503 in the finals has DEFINATELY been our hardest match.

Individually, I think that they (all 3...equally) are the strongest bots in the GTR, but I can't say for all FIRST events, since this is the only one we've attended =P.

1680 were awesome allies and I would love to be allies with them again if I got the chance! (same with 1305)

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

The triplets are the real deal.
I am VERY impressed.

I've gotten the chance to watch them for the past 2 weekends (Waterloo & GTR); in both of these events they have been absolutely incredible.

Their strategy is solid, their offensive firepower is undeniable and overwhelming, their drivetrain is practically immobile, and when pressed they can play some of the best defense I've seen.

To see a triplet fight it's way into position, and spin up it's shooter wheels, is an intimidating image. The impressive thing being, that it is almost impossible to move them. (Seriously, it seems their "staying ability" rivals many robots from 2002.)

That said:
This is an alliance game. There are many robots who can beat the triplets if they have good partners, and the triplets do not. However, 1114+1503 with a solid offensive or defensive robot is a great combination.

No, they haven't faced 111. No they haven't faced 71. No they haven't faced 254... 1126... 20... 233... 25... etc, etc... but they HAVE faced 68, 469, 217, 229, and many others, and they have certainly proven themselves again and again. They have earned my respect and admiration, and I bet they'll earn yours soon enough.
I can only imagine some of the matches we will see in Atlanta.

This solid robot, masterminded by some of the best strategists in FIRST, supported by some of the best scouts in FIRST, with a solid driveteam, pitcrew, and coach is certainly not to be trifled with. They just always seem to come out on top.

I would not be surprised to see one or more of them on Einstein...
That's the way it is,
-JV

PS - The last team to win 3 regionals in a season, met with unceremonious defeat at Championships. Is this the fate of 1114 and 1503?

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

1680's Ticket is punched for Atlanta.

speaking of that stratagy. couldn't a team aim for the #8 spot, say one of the triplets. while the other two dissipear. therefore, all three are together as #8 seed allince.

hopefullly im not giving 1114, 1503, and 1680 ideas for nats. but there is a very real chance that at least two of them will be in one division, check the rumor mill championship division thread for details.

btw, i think after today there are currently 312 teams who could or have regestered for nats.

i think if you put 25, 254, and a fast shooter like 233 or 86 agenst them......we could see the first match where both teams go into triple digits. and possibly a new high score over 159

you guys agree or disagree

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

The Triplets,

These are some great robots. However they have a weakness that is hard to get over, and it is exactly how we won the first match in the semi-finals. But then again all teams have thier weakness.

To say a team is the best in FIRST is a huge statement. That says thier is no combination that can beat them.

Now given that 1114, 1503, and 1680 are nearly impossible to push, they can still be beat, even together.

Also as John pointed out, they haven't faced many of the teams that you associate with being the best FIRST has to offer. They have beat 469, 217, 68. But they are still yet to face 25, 71, 111, 233, 254.

But yes they have a great alliance, as Karthik reminded us no one has won 3 regionals since ChiefDelphi did it last.

Tim

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

If teams actually did thier scouting then that would never happen. sorry

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

Thats why scouting is soooo much more important at nationals....and soooo much harder. I doubt that teams will make a mistake not to pick them.... but im not sure, it just could happen...

btw, with you guys stating that there are so many better robots than the triplets, would you guys be willing to state that even if they tried to get that #1 pick, that they would end up there, where would you put their ranking in a division like situation.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

Ok my loud mouth (well, typing fingers, you get the idea) has waited long enough to voice my opinion on this thread.

The first thing I want to say, and then I'll stick to the topic of the thread, is that the students on these three teams have got to be some of the classiest high school students I have seen in a long time. Canada, their schools and their sponsors could not ask for better representation. I had the privilage of sitting with them during the Great Lakes Regional and was absolutely moved by the level of class and true FIRST spirit that these kids emulated. It's an experience that everyone should try given the opportunity.

Now to the quality of their robots. This was my fourth weekend going to regional competitions. Granted my views will be prejudiced toward midwest regionals, but that's where I've been. The first of this series was Great Lakes, then Detroit, Wisconsin and West Michigan respectively. Maybe it was because they were the first dominator machines I saw this season, maybe I was just so impressed overall, but the Triplets truly stick out in my mind. The machines have been superbly built and they are astonishingly accurate. I was taken aback from the start, watching the teams get pushed at times, but still continuously shooting successfully. That's just cool. These machines are awesome.

Now before I'm accused of gush (a journalist's worst nightmare!), I must admit, I have seen a number of other very impressive machines this year. The ones that stick out most prominently in my mind being 469 (Detroit), 111, 1625 (WI), and the Martian twins (WI and WMR). These are also pretty darn good machines. There are a lot of machines that were well manufactured this year. There are also a lot of very impressive strategies.

So can other machines pull off a Triplet takeover? I guess that's one that only time will tell.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

I really hate to just come out and say that a robot is the best in FIRST. Thats a really tough comment to make and I feel some guilt as if I'm discounting other team's and their amazing efforts. That being said...

I think the Triplets are amazing. There is only one mark against them and total dominance and that is their lack of a turret. I watched 25 compete in the NJ regional. The triplets may be nearly impossible to move but 25 seemed impossible to stop. You could bang them, bump them, push them, shove them and it just wouldn't matter. Their turret always nailed the shots. I would say that they took the brunt of defensive plays often being shoved by two or three robots and it just wouldn't matter. That being said 25 is also far from perfect. They can't collect off the ground and they're slightly harder to human load. They're pushing power is however up there with the strongest.

Watching the triplets in the GTR broadcast I realized that maybe a turret doesn't matter. The triplets always seemed to get on target and nobody could dislodge them. If there was interference on the field they'd go on top of the ramp. If somebody was in their way they found an opening and unleashed a hail of balls. Intimidating barely describes the performance they put on. They also collected from the ground and were easy to human load to boot.

Now while their performance was incredible for the matches I saw that isn't enough in my mind to secure their position as the best robots in FIRST. What secures it in my mind is the fact that they have now won three regionals. To win three regionals means that even in the face of the extreme randomness of the qualifying matches, the tough battles of the finals and the repetitive stress of multiple competitions they never faltered. That is truly impressive. That is a type of dominance that I have never seen in my FIRST robotics experience.* That is why I believe that people are correct in calling them the best robots in FIRST.

There is the catch in that since they're three of them their reliability seems higher. For example 1620 broke in the last match of GTR and cost their alliance the match. Of course they lost to its two triplet brothers so it didn't matter. But then again 1114 and 1530 were the same two that won all three regionals.

In nationals I think you'll see them on Einstein. The problem is that they're likely to be split up into different divisions. They won't be able to pair up like they have been. However their reputation has been secured, great teams will choose them and in turn they will be very successful.

*The beast in 2002 probably was as dominant but it wasn't as showy about it. It I feel found the trick to beating the game. It didn't as the triplets have beat everybody at their own game.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

I have one question.

Does 1114 always have dominating robots?
Are we going to see NiagaraFIRST triplets like this in the future?

I lied. I had two questions.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

From what I have seen (at GLR) 1114 has really good operators. However, this isn't saying that the other triplets aren't up to that level at this point in time.

As for the question, No...because there is no "best" team in FIRST. Each team has its own strengths and weaknesses both on and off the field.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

During our rookie year in 2004, the 1114 bot was the coolest bot that I saw. The way it moves, the way it played the game and maneuvered around the field was simply amazing. It was an awesome spectacle of robust and efficient engineering. The same applies to 2005 when the Triplets were introduced.
They've won many regionals before this year so yes there are definitely up there in the "dominating" category

To answer your second question: Yes, I wouldn't expect anything less.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

I have been thinking about this, how can you say a certain is the best?
Winning three regionals? Winning the Championship? Having a dominate robot?
All strong arguments but there is still the little fact that there are 1100+ teams this year, so to say that any team is the best is a huge statement that is hard to back up. The only was I would be able to say a team is truly the best is if I saw them compete against ALL the other teams (now this won't happen even at the Championship).

(The above was a generic argument and in no way is meant to insult the Triplets)

All that being said The Triplets have amazing machines and a very strong strategy. And would like to congratulate them on all their success.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

I dont know if this has already been mentioned, but in my opinion, what makes the triplets strong is not their shooting specifically, but the fact that they lock is position when shooting, and are virtually impossible to move because of their PID loop and high traction. I havent seen a single bot successfully play defense againts the triplets - the only was to beat them is to outscore their alliance.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) out there in 2006?
 

I know I would. It's a perfectly legal strategy to pick teams outside the top 8 so they can't join another lower alliance when you know they are gonna say no to you.

But will they say no? And if they say yes, would it be a bad thing?

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

i have a feeling that we will see the Niagara Triplets for a very long time. They have collaborated like this for their first two years and have had success. why not stop?

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

I do not know who is the best is (i like 233). Our team would love to team up with any of these monster machines and make a killer alliance. This game can not be won by one robot. I hope that we can impress the top seeded teams so we can get picked and play in the elims rounds.


Shaun

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

I think its the alliance (of 1114 and 1503) that's the best we've seen in 2006. The triplets alone, are one of the best, but not THE best.

The championship has, for the past two years, been an interesting place to compete; strange things happen.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

can someone tell me where to find footage of the triplets its my first year and im kinda stupid

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

The triplets are awsome but team 217's turret design gives them the upper hand in my opinion.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

i know i heard somewhere that the triplets have a all girls team

is this correct. i think i heard it in this thread or the GTR Super Regional one.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

there is some footage posted on simbotics website from one of the regionals they attended. http://simbotics.homedns.org/?p=video&skin=redstuff
I can't wait for the video of the semis at GTR!!!

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

The triplets are truely a force to be reckoned with... but only championships will tell. I do believe that it was the alliance of these truely consistant robots that really makes them powerful. I think separate, they are powerful, but not as scary!

I wanted to say one thing to a question early in the thread. I dont think any of the triplets would purposly throw matches to be low and be in an alliance with the other two. They are just not like that. Now if two were in the top 8 would they decline? Likely. Any team that had won 3 regionals with another team would be silly to not try and create that alliance again. Is it fair? who knows. But is it smart? yes. Does it scare the rest of us?? Heck yes!

I saw a lot of matches from behind the "black table" in Toronto, and I observed a couple things that lead me to believe they are stoppable. In one match, 45 was able to keep 1503 from crossing the centerline, and defeated them purely by staying in their way. However, once a triplet parks at the goal, its nearly impossible to move them. I saw a few teams do this, but it might have only been 3 times in the entire regional, in all of their matches on the pontiac field.

Another thing is that I was shocked to see the match in which 229, 217 & 4 danced their way around the 2/3 triplet alliance. 217 founded the match by scoring more balls than both of the triplets together! Without a camera, the triplets take a long time to line up before a match, and it seems if they are a bit off, it just isnt as powerful in automode as some of the teams that use the camera.

But their robots are solid & amazing designs, rarely seem to fail, and the consistancy with which they play their matches is really amazing, and what makes them among the best in FIRST.

Im looking forward to seeing what Champs brings them (hopefully separate divisions or we are all in for a shock! lol).

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) out there in 2006?
 

While I have not seen the triplets play, what you say here makes me wish our alliance at Vegas (25, 897 and us) would have gotten a chance to play them. Just becuase our alliance featured two excelent shooters, each loading differently (25 human, 987 roller) and our robot, that managed to play some strong defense during the tournament. I think it would've been an interesting match.

Sumadin

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

no this is incorrect. none of the triplets have an all girl team.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

What is absolutely amazing about the triplets is, echoing what a lot of other noted users have said already is their almost mind-boggling inability to be moved when they are parked in front or to the ramp side of the goal. That PID has drawn comparisons to Beatty's 2002 walking robot, though I personally have not seen that particular robot. At the same time, I have seen evidence of a new autonomous mode that dodges the need to go to the centre of the goal, where most teams can counter if no other team sets a pick. The mode seems to be able to go near a corner goal and shoot at a much sharper angle. They also have added a plastic flap, something insanely simple to their shooter that allows them to shoot in the manner of 703 and 229.

Put it simply, they are a very very very good team because of their ability to do the things that they do very very very well. This should be a philosophy for every worthy team to follow. You must be able to pick a function for your robot to do, innovate and create endlessly until you can repeat that action, then test it, break it, and do it all over again. The triplets can do just that. Are there other teams that can do that? Definitely. Are there other teams that can innovate and create under pressure like the triplets with that plastic cover? You bet.

All technical attributes aside, it comes down to team composition, chemistry, leadership and overall strength. They have some of the brightest and most strategically minded individuals leading their respective teams, but yet again, so do other teams. I think it is incredibly difficult and to a point, irresponsible to label them anything other than a new set of legendary teams to enter they fray. And they are 100% Canadian and proud of it too. :cool:

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

That Match against two of the triplets was so insane. Our driver never shifted to low during our matches except when he tried to get onto the ramp because we had a leak in our pneumatics and he didnt want to waste air and risk falling out of gear. I just wish our team had more time to work on our robot because we got it so late into the competition. It was a well deserved win though. Extremely strong robot. The tank treads, coupled with the PID is just lovely. Defense against these bots is soooooooo necessary. i think the best way to stop them though is to keep them from parking near a goal.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

Team25 has won every regional undefeated, they have an amazing robot. Haven't seen the triplets play though, I guess we'll see at nationals. :cool:

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

Triplets are one of the best, however, 25 is better and undefeated for good reasons.

It's a quick loader, HP loading is working a lot better than anyone ever expected, it holds a good amount of balls 20 or so? Autonomous works every time, and they have a few to select from. The drivetrain is unbelieveable, it's quick and with 2" thick, 9" wheels they got a lot of traction and that makes it pretty tough to push them around easily, on top of that it has a brake, and Corey knows how to drive it. But the thing that seperates this robot from everyone else, they shoot soooo fast, they have a catapult like mechanism to keep the balls flowing in, and then the shooter shoots them like any other robot. Nobody has shut them down at all, there are strategies you can use against them, but nobody can find the right combo.


The triplets do have one thing going for them though, there are 3 of them you need to beat and they can load off the ground.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

25 hasn't attended three extremely difficult regionals as the triplets have. NJ and LV are cake compared to GTR. :)

But as Kim said, we'll all just need to wait until the end of April to find the truth.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

This is very true. Not taking anything away from 25, because winning any regional takes effort. But GLR and GTR, along with waterloo, thats some pretty good teams they had to go through.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

they are most definitly the best Alliance
but i do believe there are terams better then them. And think about it they only hav to come up with on robot design for 3 teams!! not saying that makes them worse or anything but it is just easier
also do they have something that holds them in place because at GTR they were getting pushed by 2 robots and were not moving an inch??

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

Special magic glue called "PID".

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

not NEARLY unstoppable. They are, so far, unstoppable.

But i think much of this is because people are trying the traditional method of defense on them, wait til they get close to the goal and try to push them.

I noticed that in the Elims at waterloo, 1114, 1503, and 1281 were ALMOST stopped, by some alliance i dont remember but they put their 2 strongest bots in front of the ramp and kept the zone clear.

Since then I don't think anyone has done it.

I think 71 and another really good shoter(25, 111) plus a real good defensive bot could beat them.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

I was a ref at Waterloo, so I got to see all the action up close. After what was probably their closest match, I aksed a member of 1114 why they didn't crush their opponents. Apparently, 1503 accidentally put in a dead battery, and 1114 fried a victor (or maybe a spike??) for part of the shooting mechanism. They quickly fixed the problem and dominated in the next match.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

According to what teams are currently registered for Nationals the Triplets will all be in different divisions.

This will tell how good they really are. If they each win a division that will really make things interesting.

I think they are the best and if all three make it to the Einstein I wouldn't be surprised.

Right now 1503 is teamed with 25 on the same field.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

I believe that was the first match of the finals against 188, 610, and 771. The final score was like 40 to 29. 1114 pushed 1503 up the ramp and got on themselves to win the match.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) out there in 2006?
 

for any team to intentionally throw their matches so they end up low in the rankings would be unprofessional and incredibly poor sportsmanship

esp since they would be pulling down the other two alliance partners in each match.

Once teams caught on to what was going on they would be boo'd and taunted until my voice gave out! :^)

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

From what I've seen, it sort of takes them a long time to load, and they really only hold more like 13 balls. Only being able to human load is sort of risky, once you face a smart defensive robot who either 1) blocks 25 in the corner, or 2) doesn't let them over to the HP to start with.

I think 25 is really good, but to date in the limited number of matches I've seen webcasted, I haven't seen a single team play smart defense on them. Most teams try to push them from the side or the rear. Not gonna work. You need to get in front of their turrett. Pretty much everyone they've faced has been perfectly content to let 25 make their way to the HP unimpeded, and once they're there, they let them take all the time they want to load.

Once I see 25 play some of the elite defensive robots that have defended shooters like the triplets, and they still dominate, I'll put 25 above everyone else.

Who said that they would be throwing their matches? If one robot is #1, it doesn't much matter where the other robot is--the other has the first pick. Besides. It's entirely plausible that one of the teams could hit a streak of bad luck or have mechanical problems, and end up out of the top 8.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

People who discount team 25 for playing at so called easy regionals I don't think understand how dominate they have been at their regionals. First NJ is no slouch of a regional. It was 69 teams, many of which are very competitive. When I came to 25 it was clear that no matter what happened 25 was going to win. Even more so than the triplets there is an air of inevitability about their ability to score.

To say teams didn't play good defense against them isn't completely accurate. They are strong, really strong. Their drive seems to be slippery in that they can be easily pushed, but very strong in that I never saw them ever get slowed by a robot when they drove head on. They pushed 522 a very strong tank treaded robot straight backward up the opposing ramp.

People also made the comment that all you had to do was get in front of their shooter to block them. That sounds really simple and I for one kept wondering why teams didn't just sit in front but then I realized that they're trying. 25 just pushes them into the ramp, drives up the ramp, or maybe just twists somewhat and they always get an open shot. Its just inevitable. Robots would try to square them off into a corner when they human loaded but I doubt any team will be strong enough to stop them from getting out and making their shots. Their turret is just so good that they only need a moment to get a hail of shots off and no team is going to be able to play that strong a defensive game against them for the whole match let alone even twenty seconds.

So yes they're good. Better than a triplet arguably. I'd really like to see if they could push a triplet, that would be the deciding difference. If a triplet could square them into a corner and they couldn't get out that would be the end of 25. But for now nobody has managed to even get close to stopping their drive train.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

Are there any videos of 25 in action?

Unfortunately, I can't search for 25 on CD because you need three letters or numbers for it to be searchable. FRC0025 and FRC25 turned up nothing...

Thanks.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

This thread has links to video of 25 http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...t=25%2A+videos

And a friendly tip, if you need to search for something under 3 characters, use the * after it (ex: 25* videos).

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

the triplets are amazing.....the ataunomous mode is just plain scary

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

You can stop the triplets auto mode, I saw Swat or 610 do it at waterloo.

Also, even though the triplets have good machines, I think it is disresectful to so many other teams to say that the triplets are the best. I guess this concern might and only might be valid if there werent alliances, but its 3v3, so one robot doesnt make or break any one match. Having a great shooter, or a robot that can really take care of whatever the game task is will help, but 3 bad machines can beat 3 bad machines any day if you have good strategies, and especially a little bit of luck. I wish the triplets the best of luck and congratulate them on 6 regional wins overall this season, but i think that it doesnt matter if they're the best. When you're on the field, you're trying to beat whoever you're against in almost every situation i can think of and declaring a robot the best is obsolete in a 6-robot game.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

Its hard to play defense on 25 while they are loading. The reason being that they have brakes. It is near impossible to push them. I am pretty sure that they turn on their brakes while they are loading and while they are in position to shoot. The only real way to stop them is to prevent them from winning autonomous and then out scoring them. Otherwise, it really comes down to luck. 25 plays a very smart game and I know that their coach is very clever. They aren't 31 wins and 0 losses for no reason.

I realized at NJ that they had a solid strategy and I tried to break it. We came incredibly close to beating them. I still remember after the match I was standing next to Shaun (25's coach) and we were both biting our nails because it was very close. We won autonomous and played very effective defense on them, but in the end 25 won. I would definitely keep an eye on them in Atlanta, don't be surprised if they make it onto the Einstein field.

As for 25 vs. any of the triplets, it is hard to say. Both teams are strong and in this case I really think it would come down to who their allies were. Both of these teams play smart on the field and I'd assume that they would both do a lot of research into each other. That truely would be an interesting match up, one that I will be watching out for in Atlanta ;) .

GO 1403!!!

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

this brings up something else that i noticed with the triplets and 25. while being human loaded, an opposing robot sometimes parked behind them, preventing them from getting out of the corners of the field. this gave all of these teams problems getting out to get to the other side of the field to score. however, all of the four teams were able to push their way out. so this slowed them down, but only for a second or two.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

45 did this with 1503 and it seemed to work for us. 1503 was able to only score 3 balls in autonomous before going back to load. During this time 45 parked sideways in front of them and, with some skill from our driver, did not let them pass the centerline the rest of the match. This may work for one triplet but I don't think it would work for 2.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

Also, I heard they did not hit us in low gear, if they were in low gear, I feel as if they could have tipped us over or twisted us around and have gotten by us. But definitely, trapping in the corner is the easiest way to shut them down.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

Notice also the way that the triplets played later matches, not allowing their robots to become trapped in the 1-point goal area by human-loading from a longer distance, at a 45° angle to the ramp. That left them plenty of room to escape, if needed, and also left them in a convenient defensive position.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

We were able to stop one of them consistently in the final, It seemed a lot easier to push them in auto then in normal play ;). Both times we were able to push 1503 in a circle, but they ran good interference for 1114, allowing them to shoot and score. SWAT was busy winning auto for us dumping in the lower goal :).

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

I don't think that the Niagara triplets style of a build season should be supported by FIRST. Three teams building the same robot does nothing except increase the chance of that robot design winning the championship. If they are really as good as everyone says they are, then this is only a result of the shared resources of three teams creating a single robot design, by themselves I doubt these teams could achieve such results. If you want to have a large member base for diverse design ideas, then create a single, large team, don't increase your probability of winning by acting as a single team and building three identical robots.

I don't mean to start any rants, but think about it for a second. Imagine if a veteran team split up and created the same robot on each team, entering the three of them into the competition, and then won with the three of them on an alliance. There would probably quite an uproar from the rest of the community. The Niagara Triplets system is just a step in the direction of a team monopoly on championships.

Obviously what they did is not against any rules, and this post is just an opinion, but I'm curious as what other's think about how these teams built their robots.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

Well, I think that any team that gets over the 6 week build process is the best team. Also the top 3 teams are the ones who win the National Competition.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

that doesn't sound like cheating to me. that just sounds like a good strategy. if we want to eliminate 'build season styles' that increase the likelihood of a team winning, then why don't we outlaw lathes, mills, welders, etc; or dis-allow parts bought from anywhere but home depot or lowes (no not even ACE hardware ;))? its been said before, but i'll say it again:

additionally, veteran teams split up all the time. teams 494, 710, and 64 have all spun off different teams, and 494 and 70 (there spin-off team) fielded identical robots. these veteran teams spin-off for the same reason that other teams collaborate: because they've found that it allows them to reach more students. and that, i feel, is definitely a 'winning' style of build season.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

In the interest of not having a repetitive debate, I humbly refer you to this thread:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=44797

Not trying to disrespect or shut your point down, just trying not to have the same debate in different threads.


GO 1403!!!

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

I didn't mean to come off quite so harshly, what I was trying to get at is that FIRST has always been about different teams solving problems differently, then competing to see whose ideas were the best. Having three identical robots seems to take away from that, focusing more on a "let's just win some competitions" attitude, and getting away from what FIRST is really all about, teaching and getting kids excited about technical fields like engineering and computer sciences. I'm not trying to chastise the Niagra teams, they have a legitimate and perfectly legal strategy, it just seems that if they win and other teams follow their example next year FIRST will have lost something that its always had.

--Without any intention of sparking a debate ;)
abrockhoff

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

Are the triplets the best robots in FIRST? I would tend to say no, but I havn't seen them in person. I will say that the triplets are the best "perimeter shooters" I know of.
Additionally there is no way to tell, not even Atlanta. With any form of alliance structure you can often determine which alliance is the best, but very rarely which team is the best.
Team 25 is having arguably the best regional season, ever. 31-0, 2 regional championships, a regional chairmans, woodie flowers finalist award, and the list goes on. 1114 and 1503 have won 3 regionals together. 1680 has kicked some serious butt as well. 254 is dominant as usual. Etc etc etc
As mentioned, the triplets are NOT unstoppable. 45 shut down 1503 in Q93 in GTR. Did 1503 use low gear? Only 1503 knows. As Paul Copioli mentioned in another thread, the "Division by Chicken" alliance was in far from top condition in SF matches 2 and 3. 229's shooter was busted, and 4 was expieriencing several problems (they didn't even get their robot until friday of the regional due to a shipping fiasco). Would 229, 217, and 4 have won out if they were in optimal condition? Nobody knows.
Alot has been said about playing defense against human loading robots. Even I have made this mistake in other posts, but remember this. There is no "Human loading zone" in this year's game. You can load a robot wherever on the field you so chose. Sure, closer may be a higher % shot, but it's not the only space you can load. Robbie, 116's excellent HP, managed to load one ball (his last ball) into34 during a practice match in Peachtree when 34 was at squaring up to shoot. 34's hopper is somewhat similar to 25's, just alot more square.
Will a triplet be on Einstein? I'm willing to bet yes. Will a triplet go home as Champions? I can't say yet.


Oh yeah, congratulations to this thread. You made me read 6 pages in one sitting! :ahh:

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

Just for clarification's sake, Team 1114 was very deservedly awarded with a Chairman's Award at the Waterloo Regional. Karthik was also a WFA finalist last year at the same event.

And again, three regional championships, with the same alliance is nothing short of absolutely spectacular.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

I would disagree with you on that one, 25 is the best perimeter shooter, there ability to be anywhere around the goal and still score is amazing. The triplets are more of a short range pound them in' type shooter, They can score from everywhere but are most efficient from in front of the ramp. There are many robots who shoot like the triplets, and even shoot faster (229, 68) but none of them have the all around versatility that the triplets have. once they get into a spot to shoot no one is going to move them, if there is too much defense in front of the ramp, they will zoom around you and shoot from on top of the ramp, or stand back line up and shoot. It's the multiple scoring threat and strong drive which gives them the advantage in any match.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

Well, I figured I should chime in at some point.

I'd love to be able to answer the question "Are the NiagaraFIRST Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?" Unfortunately, my opinion is probably slightly biased. Nevertheless, here are some comments.

The regional season put together by both 1114 and 1503 are unparalleled in the alliance era. The last team to win three regionals was Team 47 in 1998. Now, that being said, there are many teams who could have won 3 regionals if they had attended that many. For example, is there anyone out there who thinks Team 71 wouldn't have won a 3rd regional in 2001 if presented the opportunity? We're very proud of our historical accomplishment, but we know that it does not automatically define us as "the best". It just means we have the most trophies on the year.

Where do the Triplets rank among the other elite teams in FIRST? There will always be debates like this, and usually no consensus is achieved. Going into this year's Rose Bowl, there was much debate about who was better, Texas or USC. Many people had opinions, but there was no way anything concrete could be determined. These teams had not played each other, and their common opponents could only be linked by a graph with a depth of three. The same applies in FIRST. How can anyone truly compare Team 1114 with 111, or 1503 with 25? How many people have actually seen the robots they're comparing in person? Anything we come up with and say is pure conjecture. Now, I'm not trying to throw a wet blanket on these discussions. They're a lot of fun, and that's why we have them.

I know for a fact that my teams are not unbeatable. This is because we've lost matches. Team 68 beat the bejeezus out of 1114 & 1503 at GLR during the elimination rounds. Team 469 out strategized 1114 in a qualification match at GLR. Team 229, 217 & 4 plain out outplayed us in the Semis in Toronto. Yes these teams are beatable. Now, after that moment of humility, let me say this. Every other team in FIRST is beatable as well. Even the great Beatty in 2002 lost elimination matches.

So in summation, I hesitate to call our teams the best, but I do think we're on an elite level. At this point there's no way of differentiating between team like the triplets, 111, 25, 254, 968, 469, 71 and the rest of the top teams. We're very honoured to know that people across FIRST consider us the best team they've seen, and we hope that at least one of our teams will be able to earn this honour down in Atlanta, along with two other fantastic FIRST teams.

In terms of the general success of the regional season, I suspect if you ask most members of NiagaraFIRST, especially those on 1114, what their proudest moment of the season was, it would be winning the Waterloo Chairman's award. When the concept of the triplets was first decided upon in 2004, never was the goal to bring home more trophies. It was to spread the word FIRST, which we feel our collaboration has allowed for. Our community has been energized by FIRST, and by the day more kids get bitten by the FIRST bug. This easily outweighs the trophies we've earned.

Congratulations to all teams on a wonderful regional season, and good luck to those competing in Atlanta.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

Well said. That is what it's all about.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

I never said that the triplets couldn't score closer, and I'll admit they are terrific at scoring closer. But when the defense requires it, they can back up to a range and angle that few teams can match, and unload accurately.
At least from what I have seen, 25 doesn't have the same range to do it.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

It kind of bugs me to see three identical robots. Half of the fun of going to competition is seeing all of the different ways teams solved the problem.

Our team has trouble agreeing on things and we have 20-30 people. How they get 60-90 people to agree on one perfect design stumps me. Maybe they have a few people go off and design, which is what we are planning, I dunno. It's almost as if they saw into the future and saw what the perfect robot looked like.

However, they are targets. After winning 3 regionals and being the topic of discussion on these posts they are targets. If one of them is the only Triplet on the field at the time they will be constantly watched and constantly defended.

If there's two of them, it may be a bit more difficult and nobody will score any points. 229, 217, and 4 has given them their best match. They haven't even faced 25. I can't wait for Atlanta. There are going to be some pretty intense finals.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

Would you pay to see 254, 968, and 25 go against the triplets? Or any other three of 06's Shooter Hall of Fame robots?

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

I would.

That match would be like the series fanale of of a popular TV Show. Everyone HAS to see it.

254 and 968 might get in eachother's way because they both primarily get up on the ramp to unload.

I can't predict an outcome, though.
I haven't seen the Triplets or 254/968 in competition so I wouldn't know how well they drive or how well they can drive around the field. With teams like that, it pretty much comes down to who can gather balls the fastest.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

I havent seen the Cheesy Poofs
but between the Niagra triplet design and 25, 25 wins. Strong drivetrain, effective use of turret and CMU cam, so even when being pushed, they still make like all their shots in. That is one of the best things that could be in Aim High, as it seems that so many are able to prevent shooters by rammage

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

Give them WildStang (111) instead. They need a distance shooter and primary floor loader.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

Seeing as how I only personally attended the two Canadian regionals this year, I'll say that the NiagaraFIRST teams were some of the most consistent I saw. I'd say their strongest points are the tank treads that make it so only the more powerful robots can do anything and their extremely effective collecting/loading system.

Although this might seem like not that big of a deal, the Niagara teams probably had the most effective human-loading design of any other robot out there. Their simple "baskets" were made with an open front-end so that their human player could get nearly every single ball in without having to worry about over-throwing or being too precise. With help from other human players on the alliance there was hardly a single ball wasted since every ball that entered one of those robots generally made it into the center goal. Take a look at any video of these robots being loaded and you'll see what I mean.

Now as far as my favourite robot goes... I loved the Thunderchickens! Their robot just looks so cool and works so well. Fantastic design... especially the Wheel of Doom... I just loved watching that thing being loaded!

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

I think you've completely missed the point of the collaboration here.

Karthik and others have stated many times that the reason the 3 teams are working together isn't because they want to make the best robots ever, and increase their chances of winning, but rather that there simply aren't enough resources to go around and sustain 3 independent teams. By collaborating on one robot design, all 3 teams are able to be inspired by FIRST, and spread the word to other teams. Without the collaboration, there would be far fewer kids reached.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

I have had the pleasure of seeing 968 in action at the Los Angeles Regional as a volunteer there. In terms of picking up balls they were proficient to say the least, but they concentrated on HP loading primarily. Although they were stopped in qualifying matches more than once, the alliance won it out in the finals.

I also was able to see 25 in action as well at the Las Vegas competition. Our team, 399, went up against them several times in qualifying and in the semi final matches. There shooter was incredible to watch, but not unstoppable. Our alliance, along with 1027, was able to prop themselves up along the ramp at an angle and block 25 from making shots. We would just have to drive back and forth along the ramp to block the shots. Ultimately, one would almost have to play total defense on these guys to win. It was an exciting match to say the least. Anyhow I believe, 968, 25, 254 and other elite teams will ultimately make it to the finals in their divisions. It will be interesting to see what develops from there. You can count on me watching there matches.

Re: The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?
 

From what everyone has seen during the competition...that would be correct.