Two Story Pit Area?
 

Suppose we designed a two story pit area with either a ladder or staircase to get people to the second floor and a small elevator to get supplies and robots to the second floor. Suppose it fit totally int he 10x10 footprint and broke down enough such that it would be not too difficult to bring into the arena. Suppose we did all the engineering analysis to show that it is completely safe and in no danger of collapsing. Do you think FIRST would allow it?

It would ust be so insanely awesome. Of course, with probably 50+ vertical feet to work with, why stop at just one story right?
First floor: lobby
second floor: public relations
3rd floor: repairs shop
4th floor: programming and testing
5th floor: strategy
and so on...

You've got to admit a multi story pit area would be about the coolest thing ever in FIRST.

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

No, since the pit area you are allowed this year is 10x10x10.

RTFM!

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

Team 1320 out of South Carolina had a two-story pit last year at Palmetto. They couldn't do it this year, since FIRST banned multi-story pit areas, but it was fun to look at last year.

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

Pictures please?

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

I think I would be super confused... you could loose people and scouting would be, well, odd

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

While it would be cool ...

7.7.4 NEW: Team Stations
These designated spaces help organize team placement and help team members, judges, and visitors find teams easily. Please keep your numbers visible and aligned. They are set up to be as equal as possible. Each team's pit station will have a table and power outlet.
For safety and because of insurance regulations, teams cannot build any structure that supports people or items for storage above the work area in their pit space. No structures should be higher than 10 feet above the floor and must safely support any signs or displays mounted to the structure. FIRST will require the removal of any pit structure that is deemed unsafe by event management personnel and local committee members.

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

The amount of freight elevators needed to keep that comp. running smoothly scares me :ahh:

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

i think years ago we had some ideas drawn out for a 2 story pit. I belive the top was more of a lounge area and the bottom was reserved for robot maintance. It was never done for safety concerns i believe.

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

OSHA Say:

Anyhow, to make the extra story comply with OSHA, the thing's gonna be heavy.

Hey, on the note of OSHA:

While I was buying some parts for a robot I'm building for fun, I ran accross the electrical specs for that red main battery connector FIRST uses. Did you know its only rated for 50 amps?! :ahh:

That means that there is a 120 amp breaker behind a 50 amp connector...

anyone else thinking this is stupid and is a safety/fire hazard? :confused:

sorry about being off topic, just wanted to tell someone that.

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

Why not just find a place at a regional where thier is a 2 story bulding? Then just have spots reserved for teams on both stories.... :rolleyes: seems like that is a safe plan!

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

This has been noted before. The basis for using a connector that is seemingly underrated is that, in 2 minutes, 120 amps could not compromise the connector. The key here is the time factor. If matches where significantly longer, then a lot of rules surrounding electrical safety might have to change.

In fact, if you looked at the average amount of current pulled over the whole two minutes, I bet it would be under 50 amps.

The connector is capable of carrying much higher currents over a 2 minute time span then it's rating would otherwise suggest. There is no danger from a properly cared for connector. You can use higher rated connectors if you wish, assuming rules don't change, as long as inspectors are satisfied that they meet all the requirements that the kit Anderson meets.

-Andy A.

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

Right now, the rules don't actually allow for a more robust solution, even if you wanted one. See <R57>, which states that "[t]he Battery must use the Anderson Connector", meaning the red SB50.

As for the 2-story pit area, I'm wondering whether a team would actually go to the trouble of getting a structural engineer's stamp on their pit area blueprints, and then having it verified for proper construction once it was assembled. For liability reasons, I can't see FIRST ever allowing anything less than that, even notwithstanding the item in the manual which clearly prohibits these sorts of things.

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

We thought about making a second story lounge and an area for the pit crew to take a load off of their feet. But, the sheer logistics of easily being able to set it up are mind boggling and well, it wouldn't be worth it. Plus, its not legal. But hey, we all can dream of a lounge area....

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

How about at IRI where the FIRST rules are a little more, well, flexible! :)

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

Good idea, but I'm quickly coming to realize the cost to build such a structure would be in the thousands.

But I was thinking something. The footprint space it takes for a person to stand is not even as large as for an FRC robot. So it could be a people An 8 foot stroke pneumatic cylinder. It would be perfect. Like a 4 inch bore clylinder running at 120 psi. :D

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

but remember, the pits are almost half the size, wait a minute.....even more of a challenge!

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

The only problem with that is that you'll have about 5 teams all trying to use the freight elevator at the same time because they're all late for a match.

I think the 4 story pit is a really good idea (safety concerns, logistics, rules, feasibility, and cost aside of course). Anyone hear of the "elevator" they're attempting to make to the moon? Just use one of those. 5000 story pit area! :ahh:

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

Aha, I completely misread your initial post, David!

I thought that you were referring to a massive, pit-area-wide structure that would have multiple floors to accomodate extra teams and work/practice/shop spaces (I think I mentally deleted the 10x10 blurb). This, in and of itself, would be very cool and might allow venues with relatively cramped pit spaces to open up a bit and allow the full 10x10 footprint dimensions, if not more. Obviously, the overall height of the arena and the lighting of each space would be issues to tango with.

As for individual pits, I'd be worried about either having kids fall out of the upper levels or, if you have workspace on the upper level(s), having materials/sparks/nuts and bolts either fall through the floor or hit passers-by. We might have to start telling kids to keep their saftey glasses over their eyes on the field and on their foreheads in the pits.

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

you have time to lounge?! :ahh:

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

I think if a team were to have this multi story pit it would cause one big problem. The problem simply being that if there was a multi level pit, no work would get done in my one table toolbox pit. We'd all be over there trying to get past the bouncer into yer lounge, which would then result in us taking a crate into our first match :-p

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

Just after reading 1910.28(a)(20), my team already fails OSHA standards.

Though this only occurs during those quick-take-the-robot-apart-and-rebuild-the-entire-inside-because-we-have-a-match-in-five-minutes build periods. :D

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

You can dream about this, but won't ever do it. Kyle failed to mention the part when his team mentors said "no way".

A 2-story pit at a FIRST event is a safety hazard. It will cause more negative attention from facility administrators, insurance lawyers and safety personnel not familiar with FIRST. We don't need more of these people nosing around the pits.

This is NOT a good idea. Please, people, don't try to develop 2 story pits or push FIRST to allow them. The attention we will get won't be good.

Andy B.

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

Yo i say screw it man and just build it for the off season just for the heck of it. That would be so much fun to do. Heck i would be more then glad to help.

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

These sorts of things are common in the trade show world, although not usually in sizes that small. I should warn you, though, that the last time I designed a trade show exhibit our 20x20 booth (only one story) cost more than $50,000, and we rented most of it.

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

Yeah, I would like to see pictures from a two story pit area?

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

I agree, and with our team, it sounds a bit too unorganized and crowded considering the problem we had this year with people on our team not realizing we have limited space and so we have a designated pit crew and the "non-crew" members ignored it and just came in and got in the way and slowed down our repairing.

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

Is a multi-story pit area limited by the 10 foot high ceiling limit that FIRST has? Or can you have a 6'8" tall ceiling (height of a standard interior doorway), 4 inches of load-supporting surface, and then 3 feet for exhausted programmers to sleep on. You would have a ladder to climb up, and meybe a mattress to rest on. If this is a bit confusing, imagine being on a rooftop that is 6'8" from the ground.

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

If we got a team of really short people, maybe we could have a true two story pit area.

Well, let's face it, it will never happen, but if it did happen, and you could have, oh, say 5 stories, what would they be?

I would probably have
1. Robot repair shop and storage (heavy stuff down there)
2. Public Relations
3. Programming and Testing
4. Team Lounge
5. The Club, with dancing and lights and fog and stuff.

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

For 5 stories,
1. Robot repair and storage (heavier stuff down here)
2. Bags, backpacks, spare parts storage
3. Programming and testing (cooler full of soda and a tray of warm cookies at all times)
4. Scouting level (laptop, scouting sheets, and several pairs of binoculars)
5. Resting (mattresses and pillows for tired team members)

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

That is why you sit in the stands for the matches.

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

This is a "fun" thread to brainstorm about tweo-story pits ala professional trade shows, but alas it is NOT allowed by FIRST. Pits should be limited to 10' in height. Also, if you've never been to Atlanta GWCC, your pit should be open-topped to let-in as much of the ambient lighting as possible; otherwise makes it tough to work on robot!

Even if it was allowed, it is hugely cost-prohibited and the venue (The Georgia Dome and World Congress Center) imposes their own safety regulations:
http://www.gwcc.com/exhibitors/docum...Guidelines.pdf

Better start getting your funding, plans, permits, etc for the Taj Mahal ready for the 2008 season!

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

You are correct, the safety risks of building up in the pits is just too great. The only was to go for more space is to dig a basement.

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

four words for you: "camera on a pole" :D

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

will people please stop posting stuff about guidelines and stuff about why we can't do it, you guys are totally killing the buzz. Just go with the flow.

And for the 5 Stories
1: Robot Repair and heavy stuff
2: Bags and Pins and other give aways
3: Lounge with TV and PS2 or XBox 360
4: Kots or some other beds to sleep in
5: "Gentalmen's" club

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

I had always dreamed of a 2 story pit, I believe a team did it this year out of painters scaffolding.

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

Hey,
the Wold Congress Center in Atlanta actually has 30' high ceilings, so why not go for a THREE_story tall pit?

let's see now, the elevator tags will read:
---first floor, robot repair shop complete with polished concrete floor
---2nd floor; co-ed crash mosh pit (Ok, maybe a velvet curtain)
---3rd floor; robo-lounge complete with revolving disco dance floor
---rooftop-mounted 360 degree spy surveillance cameras with pan, tilt and zoom to check-out everyone else's pit. Do your scouting from the relaxation of a Naugahide recliner in the robo-lounge....

yeah, I like that idea! Cool.


Oh yeah, I forgot that you have to submit plans six months in advance, and have to use their union labor to assemble the pit.....But, maybe with enough AutoCAD work over the next season......hmmmmm.

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

lets not forget that team cooperation is a good thing.
your 5 story pit should be designed for easy access to the neighbors pit structure. thus we should develop standards for pit access.
also, to reduce elevator traffic, we would need sky bridges from the 3rd story of your pit to the pit across the aisle.
properly designed, the judges need not walk on the floor of the arena, they just travel across the 3rd floor access ways.

jerry w

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

I remember that, they were right next to us I beleive, and it was strange to come out of our tent and see 2 guys sitting up there with binoculars, I might even have a pic somewhere

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

While FIRST will never allow it, it can be fun to dream...



This thing is called a Tower Blind and hunters use it to blend in with surroundings and get some nice pre-fab shelter from which to pick helpless animals off with. Tower Blinds are made to be quite portable and are usually pretty small, (I'd say roughly within that 10*10ish area) so that they are easily transported to hunting sites. I haven't done a whole lot of research but I think they run upwards of $800 to $4,000.

Practically this is about the easiest way to actually get your idea safely into a pit... Oh, and I think scouting should get dibs on that second floor...

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

Does anyone have pictures of this? I'd be really interested to see something like this.

Also, do you think that anyone would have a problem with a camera on a 15 foot high pole? I don't know why, but it'd be pretty cool to have at your pit. You could see what's happening pretty much everywhere.
Hey... FIRST competition pit traffic reports.

And that hunting thing doesn't seem to be blending in very well. Then again, it's probably made to be placed in trees.

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

The point with the hunting blind isn't the blending in, it's a preassembled, multi -level, easy to dissasemble, relatively within the the pit dimensions, pretty cheap, structure.

I didn't pick the best picture, but there are many different brands/varieties, but most fit the above criteria. If you seriously wanted to do something, this is one of the easier ways of going about it.

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

I found the pic I have, http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/24597
If you look close you can see someone up there

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

Let me think about it for one second.
OK, I am done thinking about it.

How about "NO!".

We are flexible, but not that flexible.

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

Hmmm. Come to think of it, one of the main reasons people are thinking a two story pit would be cool is because of the comfy space.

So perhaps FIRST could just put this into their site agenda and avoid the saftey hazard of teams trying?

Think the Autodesk Couch area at nats, but at every regional, and bigger there's just enough room if they move some of the arena chairs around...

I mean regionals are getting to the size where getting comfy seats should become a priority. If they put said comfy sofa area in the stands behind the pits, they'd avoid spectator squaters, meaning a cool hangout place to stratigize and stuff. But where would they get the couches? I can just see the agenda now, "be sure that your team brings a sofa to relax with".

But seriously, scouts and such work their butts off, is a nice place to relax for a few minutes too much to ask?

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

Instead of multi-story pits. How about a raised pit? or split-level pit? Surely there isn't a FIRST rule stating that the pits must be on the ground right?

It would make getting the robot up there a little difficult but given the thoughts being tossed around, I'm sure someone can figure it out.







If you take a look at the picture, that cutout is for the robot cart and lifting mechanism. the space between the pit and floor will have no body parts, but instead, they will have buckets full of tools, parts, etc. The front of the pit (and side if you are lucky enough to get a corner) will have cabinets for storage purposes.

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

I'm not sure I understand why this would supplant the tables and workbenches most teams currently have in their pit. Storage space is already available under them. Do you have other purposes for raising the pit deck?

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

it would give you an "eye up" on the compition...allowing tall people to see completly arounf them and see where other team members are or other things

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

A two storied pit area would be cool and interesting but come on it has unsafe written all over it especially if there are intentions for using the second story. ;)

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

I'm kind of liking this idea. Certainly not nearly as extravagant as my original idea, but you could have the floor be all hinged panels and the bottom area compartmentalized and you could keep all your stuff below the floor with easy access. It would provide good storage and easy accessibility.

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

i couldent resist...
heres my version 1

complete with track lighting

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

I hate to burst everyone's bubble
and before someone tells me that the rules can change i will put money on this one NOT changing

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

Wouldn't it be better to focus all this attention and energy on making something useful or better for your robot? :rolleyes:

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

That rule (the bolded part) States that you aren't allowed to have storage above people's heads. That is because if something heavy falls, it will hurt the person below it. The rule doesn't state that you can't support your workspace above a storage area, only that you can't put heavy things above your workspace.

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

However, the aforementioned rule also states that the structure cannot hold people. So that removes most, if not all, possibilities of creating a second tier/story. But if the second level was to be for storage purposes, then as Cody C says, it would not be allowed to be higher than the work area/above people's heads.

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

Doesn't it specifically state the structure cannot support PEOPLE above the WORK AREA. Now if you have supplies under you that technically isn't the work area.

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

With that rule being read as you are applying to the shorter split level design, it states that no structure can hold storage or people above the work area, if we take that to mean floor then tables would be against the rules. I am pretty sure that the rule is helping to enforce the no dual level pits not isnt going to create a problem with the last 2 pit designs displayed. but when all else fails come january you can always ask in the Q&A rules section.

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

A sub-floor, Interesting idea. This would be a nice compromise, other than giving teams an extra 5 feet. The problem is the fact that not all teams engineer things to the same quality. FIRST is just trying to cover themselves from legalities. Sadly, most regionals already take on 1-2 lawsuits per regional, which is a sad statistic for gracious professionalism.

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

As mentioned by numerous people before me, FIRST does not allow anything go be stored above the work area. FIRST handily did not define the work area, so we can safely assume the work area can be on any plane (i.e. a table and the floor) as long as nothing is above it other than the parts and tools required to do whatever work is needed.

Some of us are familiar with the construction of the Battlebox and other robotic combat arenas. Surely we can figure out some sort of module configuration similar to what you see below.





Each module is 1.5' tall and 2' x 2'. The ones with the translucent flaps on the side(s) are modules meant for the edges/corners. The translucent flaps are the doors for the sides of the modules. The modules that have open sides go in the back and interior. The hole in the top of the module is 2" in diameter and meant for anyone to stick a finger in and remove the entire flap. I decided not to use hinges primarily because the doors could get in the way and they may end up interfering with other modules. The removable floor/door thing would make repairing the module a little bit easier.

Here is what it would probably look like when all assembled together.




If I really wanted to be fancy, it's possible to put walls between the modules so you can set up one 2x2 module section for raw materials, and another 1x2 module section walled off for tools, and a 1x1 module section for buttons, and scouting forms. The possibilities are endless. The walls on the sides are for whatever banners would be put up there. I was thinking of making the entire floor transparent or maybe a little translucent and turning the pit into a disco floor. But that's just me and my crazy imagination.


EDIT: Look up any manufacturers of portable stages, it's basically the concept I want to pursue with this pit. It also helps those teams who's manufacturing capabilities are not top quality.


Any thoughts?

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

That's interesting; I've never heard anything about litigation involving FIRST regionals before. Can you elaborate?

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

What's the source of that statistic?

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

The module design would allow rearrangment of the entire pit and also stacking for more storage. Assuming that the supports are at least a couple inches wide, however, boxes that are more than two feet wide in any direction wouldn't fit. Maybe there could be 4x2 modules, the size of two small ones stuck together. With horizontal supports for the top, it could still hold a lot of weight on top.

The module system would also be great if you're going to more than one competition with very different pit sizes.

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

Out of sheer curiosity, by how much do the pit sizes at the regionals vary?

The standard I believe is 10'x10'. However, there are reports (a.k.a. complaints) that pit sizes reach as low as 8'x8'. Furthermore, there are even reports that pits aren't even perfectly square.

Can someone confirm this?

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

OK, before this whole thing gets out of hand, let's put this one to rest. This statistic is a complete fabrication, without any basis in reality. NASA has sponsored 42 regional FRC competitions over the last nine years. I have direct knowledge of the financial, organizational and legal status of each of these events, and significant insight into many of the other non-NASA sponsored regionals. Across this entire history, there has only been one incident involving the potential for litigation (which was due to a serious injury). The idea that "most regionals already take on 1-2 lawsuits" is, to be blunt, completely ludicrous.

-dave

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

Dave, does this account for ALL lawsuits against FIRST Regionals? Or only the major ones? Given the trigger-happy lawyers here in America, coupled with the presumably deep pockets of FIRST, we can all expect some frivolous lawsuits. Which might be where the 1-2 lawsuits per regional figure comes from.

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

Maybe. Or maybe the figure is pure horse hooey.

No source has been offered. Dave says the figure is wrong, and Dave is in a position to know.

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

OK, let's try this again: The 1-2 lawsuits - of any size, any type - per regional statistic is a complete fabrication, without any basis in reality. Period. End of discussion. Let's move on.

-dave

Re: Two Story Pit Area?
 

Oooh SketchUp! I didn't think anyone else actually used it!

Ronald Raygun, Does your team use SketchUp during the build season at all?