Re: Newton Discussion
 

ohmygod
im shaking
that was one of the best matches ive ever seen
25 turned the tables like noothing else in that last play
getting past two bots
ohmygod

amazing

88-73
25-176 (teams that is)

Re: Newton Discussion
 

Did 25 not get picked first? Or did they get picked first and then decline?

Re: Newton Discussion
 

DID YOU GUYS SEE THAT!!! 195 feed 968!!!!! I was waiting for that to happen.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

My son just said, "That's the kind of thing that you talk about in strategy sessions then say, 'nah, that would never really work.'" Un-be-freaking-lievable.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

That #3 alliance is playing this game better than any alliance I have seen, period. They are feeding eachother, playing outstanding defense, stunning offense, and are getting ramp points.

Gongratultions to the new Newton champs, 25, 968, and 195

Re: Newton Discussion
 

So what's going on on the other fields?

Re: Newton Discussion
 

Congrats to our Newton Champions 25, 968, and 195

Re: Newton Discussion
 

I don't understand your question? I think I would explode if they were all this good.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

Agreed. I watch some of the others for a while earlier, then switched to Newton because it was the most exciting.

So now I don't know which teams advanced from Archimedes, Curie, and Galileo.

/edit: should have just looked here /edit

Re: Newton Discussion
 

They got picked first and declined. 176 then picked 254, who also declined. 111 was their third pick, who accepted (obv). Ironically, 176 beat 254 in the semi-finals.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

hahaha, thats funny. Arch did good and surprised me about it.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

Sorry to disappoint you. Chris' strategy of getting 229 stuck on/inside 254 worked pretty much perfectly, but wasn't quite enough to pull out the victory. :p

Big Grats to Travis, Kirk, and 968 for their performance. It was a great feeling helping out any way we could and rooting you guys on.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

Congrats Newton Division. We almost beat out Archimedes for the win, but sadly we didn't. Maybe next year we can pull out a victory. Congrats to team 111 for winning the Chairman's Award as well.

On a lighter note, I know my team's happy that in our Rookie Year we built the sexiest robot in the world and got the Imagery Award at Nationals :D

Re: Newton Discussion
 

That was great, good job guys.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

Well it actually happened before 987 did it at phoenix,it was pretty cool Then we tried at Vegas with 25 but we never got the chance, Im glad 25 could use that move at nationals.
I really wanted to see them win!!

Re: Newton Discussion
 

I must say, 987's alliance should've been on Einstein as well. The perfect set of matches from this year has to be the Semis with the 2 vs 3 seed. Perfection.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

Thankyou! All 3 of our matches were extremly close, but your team deserved to be there! (im just glad you beat the first alliance!) Your matches on Einstein were close 2! Good job guys!

Re: Newton Discussion
 

A few points:
1) We made finals in every event this year including an upset win over 296's alliance at BAE.

2) Wildstang's robot and team are super (clearly a power in the Newton Division).

3) 122 played some amazing defense for us, better than some of the other third picks (not 195 of course :) ).

4) I think that superior driving and qualification round planning (yes we planned each qualification round as though it were an elimination round) are what carried our wonderful but less than perfect robot to a well deserved 1st seed on Newton.

5) 968 sure played like a power house in the elims.

Congratulations to Teams 25, 968, 195 on the win.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

25 declined

Re: Newton Discussion
 

Some people think 987, 25, and all the other teams that 176 was partnered with, carried them.




[edited due to info error]

Re: Newton Discussion
 

That's interesting a team that makes the finals at two regionals and wins one of them. Was undefeated all weekend, then gets to the finals of a "regional" at the Championship gets carried I can't believe it :confused: :confused:

Re: Newton Discussion
 

One thing we learned over the years is that there is no such thing as a sure thing.

We AGONIZED over who we wanted to pair with for the elims. Aces High one time picked us in the past and it was hard to turn them down, but our rationale was that they kept getting tipped over and we didnt want that.

As a team we were leaning towards both Wild Stang and High Rollers. We know the Rollers as our friends and alliance partners from LV and we knew they would get the job done. They also had the pushing power we wanted. But we also knew Stang from the 2003 season and lots of friendly interraction since then. Their dart in and shoot play also had great appeal. Both (actually a number of) teams had great robots that easily could have been a great partner.

Imagine the dilemma of having to face 11 on Sat morning undefeated at the time. If we won they fell back into the mix. If they won and we dropped out of the top few spots and possibly couldn't pick them as partner. We talked about this Friday and both teams agreed that GP warranted we both do our best and play it as it fell.
As it turned out they won (our first loss ever) and the result lowered our rank to where we were succeeded by Aces High, setting up this whole situation.
My compliments to Aces High for playing the game like a pro. I'm not sorry about the outcome of the division but they sure made the game a greater challenge for us.
Overall Newton was the toughest group of robots we played all year. How about a Newton Reunion on November 4 at our place for Brunswick Eruption 5?

It was a great division and great FIRST year.

WC :cool:

Re: Newton Discussion
 

I like that idea of a Newton Reunion (even though I may be biased..just a tad bit). But I agree, Newton had the most challenging set of robots we've ever faced off with..and I don't think anyone would disagree that the teams were most definately some of the best in the country.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

TUFF, TUFF and TUFF.....that's my thoughts on NEWTON. Every match had great robots in it. We loved being their, just to watch them all.

Does anyone have final scoring stat's for bots on NEWTON. I know some teams keep some amazing stats and would love to see the final statistics.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

You played both 111 and 11 Saturday morning. At the end of Friday 25 and 11 were both undefeated and Paul Kloberg (Senior Mentor for NJ agonized at two NJ teams playing each other) I'm sure it was just a typo, and I wanted to clarify.

In any event, congrats to 25, 2 regional wins, a regional chairmans, divisional winners, and World Finalists...all In all a truly successful year.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

we have scoring stats on all the robots in Newton. I'll see if I can get ahold of them.

One problem is that the high scorers scored so much, I'm not sure that the numbers have the proper number of balls counted. I know our scouts saw us score fewer balls than we later saw on video, when we had a 128 point match with 987 on Friday afternoon.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

I noticed that too...several matches i blatently saw 9 balls go through the center goal and down the chute, and the RTS said that they scored 27 points (9x3=27) but then the human counters would say that only 7 or 8 went through...what happened to the mysterious phantom ball?

Re: Newton Discussion
 

I was watching on NASA TV, but who did 176 pick the first two times and the team said no, i saw the allince parings on www.soap.circuitrunners.com and it said something about third time is a charm....what was that all about

Re: Newton Discussion
 

176 first picked us, 25, and we declined. Then picked 254, and they declined.
They did this to break up any super-alliances. The reason they did so(well from my understanding) was because they knew that many teams would not want to accept their offer, because many teams did not consider them one of the better bots.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

I didn't mean to imply that FIRST got their numbers wrong. What I meant was that our scouts who recorded how many balls each team scored probably weren't able to keep up with some of the faster scoring teams, and as a result, they probably got shortchanged.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

That was awesome competition. Even the qualifying matches were hard faught (101-92 anyone?). Thanks to 987 and 11 for being awesome in autonomous mode in various matches. We had some "luck of the draw" problems in the first few matches of elims, but that's the way it goes in a division that is as packed as Newton was.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

Thank you, and thanks to 987 for picking us. We finally got to play the defensive game we built our robot for. Being with the #2 seed on Newton as a rookie team was just phenomenal - what a way to finish our season! Thanks 25 for a great fight - we had fun trying to stop you. We drained our battery to almost nothing defending you in the first match. Good work getting away from us in the corner in match 2 at the end - if we could have held for 5 more seconds ... who knows? You guys deserved the win - you had an awesome alliance, congratulations.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

I said thankyou to you guys on another post and you deserve it again!, we usually dont swing that way when it comes to picking, but you impressed our scouts with excellent defense, and you proved it for real when it depended the most, excellently played! Also a thankyou to 1503 for an awesome autonomous and teamwork!

Re: Newton Discussion
 

I have to agree. Being up there for alliance picking I sure didn't feel like one of the better bots. In fact our own scouting had us as 12th over all. I robot had some disadvantages that became very apparent in the final match's. Aces High would be interested in a Newton Reunion. We are hoping to finally get our camera working and fix the other bugs for the off season events.

Great job by team 25, 195 and 968 on Einstein!!

Re: Newton Discussion
 

Boy, I'm confused here. I would think that team 176 earning first place (no matter how) entitled them to ask any team they thought was best to win with, how would that be "not very graciously professional". I think teams that denie after being picked would fall into the "un-gracious" category myself. Honestly they should remove that rule in my opinion just to avoid it. This isn't "let's get all the favorite teams together and win", it's called FIRST robotics guys :(

It was great playing with all the awesome bots this year in Newton, congrats to all. :)

Re: Newton Discussion
 

For starters, I don't think what they did was ungracious, or unprofessional, but it was pretty obvious that they were trying to keep the top 4 from allying with each other. I know we told them we'd like to pick our own alliance, before the choosing started, and I'm pretty sure other teams did as well. It was a very smart move on their part, to weaken the entire division while still being able to take the team they wanted #1 all along, and I'm sure many of us would have done it had we been in 176's position.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

I was very surprised that not too many defensive powerhouses/low corner scorers were selected for alliance pairings. Does anyone think that this may have changed the outcome of the matches? or does everyone think that the alliances were good the way they were picked? I just want to see what everyone thought about the way the final alliances ended up.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

I'm with Cory on this one. If you are the number 1 seed, you have the right to pick anyone you want. If you want to break up potential power alliances by asking for certain teams, you have that right. It is the smart thing to do.

However, if you are in the top 8, you have also earned the right to pick your own alliance. Declining an offer from a team you think you don't mate up with nicely is also O.K. and the smart thing to do.

Bottom line: Asking top seeded teams to be your partner even though you know they will say no is O.K. Declining a selection from a team is also O.K.

-Paul

BTW - I'm glad 217 was not in Newton :)

Re: Newton Discussion
 

I'm not.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

I agree. I think having 217 in our division would have made things even more interesting ;)

Regardless, Newton was good. And even if 176 did break up the 'powerhouse' alliances, 25/195/968 teamed up together and did something amazing. We made it to Einstein. We made it to the finals. We worked together well. And we only lost by 4 points. It was well worth it.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

The High Rollers want to thank 1503 and 1718 for an excellent alliance!!! We were a tough alliance!!! Thank you guys we gave a good fight.
Natalia

Re: Newton Discussion
 

What a crazy division, too bad we couldn't bring home to gold this year. We will just have to wait until next year.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

I think it would be interesting to change the selection process. FIRST goes to a lot of effort tracking ranking points. Why not just have the top 24 teams in the selection pool. The top 8 teams that pick have to work with the teams that have good scores and have earned their place.

In Newton, I think there was 1 7-0, 6 6-1, and lots of 5-2 teams. The ranking points decided the number 8 position and their ability to pick. Personally, ranking points do not tell much of anything in a real match because of the way the are setup. I believe the a team with a 7-0 record with 0 ranking points (depending upon the teams) is much better than a 7-0 with 50 ranking points. Many times, teams are too worried about how to add to the opponents score. Personally, I don't know which is worse, getting beat badly, or getting beat badly and then the other team scoring point for me knowing that I didn't score them. I'm pretty sure everyone doesn't feel the same way, but it is just an opinion.

The only thing I think that comes out of the ranking point is to try and keep the damage to a minimum. When it comes to the finals though, I would think all bets are off.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

I personally had an amazing time this past weekend. the semi's in newton were definitely some very exciting matches. I don't think i saw another 2 triple digit score all season.

I would like to thank the scouts on 987 for being able to see our full potential, even tho we had a very tough schedule and lost 3 of our matches.

I would also like to thank 1718 for making up the last third of our alliance. you guys played some good defence, and to make it as far as you did as a rookie team. give yourselves a pat on the back.

I would also like to thank the #3 alliance 25, 968, and 195 for putting up a great fight in the semi's. you were all superb teams and you definitely deserved the win. It was a tough couple of matches, but in the end you guys came out on top. Congratulations again guys.

And then I would like to thank all of my mentors for making this an amazing season for 1503. 3 regional wins, and championship newton division semi-finalist is way more than i could have asked for at the beginning of the season.

and Congratulations Everyone on surviving another season in FIRST!

Re: Newton Discussion
 

I for one was very happy to be on Newton this year. This was the first time I actually got to be on the same field as my mentor likes to refer to them as the "big dogs". Wildstang, Beast, Poofs, and more...not to mention Aces High and High Rollers. It was definitely an experience to see how these teams ran themselves on the field, in the pits, and in the stands.

It really was a great competition and I wouldn't have wanted my last year to end any other way. Thanks to 229 for picking us. And of course congrats to 25, 968, and 195 for Newton Division Champs.

It has been a phenomenal ride. Thank you all. Thank you FIRST :) .

Re: Newton Discussion
 

During qualifying matches team 176 Aces High flip over only once. The robot that flipped Aces High was given a 25 point penalty.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

Thank you Cory.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

What I saw on the broadcast and read on Delphi is that 176 was a very successful team that chose alliances by the book and completely in agreement with the rules -- both by the letter and in spirit. I've read some folks here on CD whining about the way 176 playing -- even though no one has accused them of cheating, breaking the rules or even being bad sports. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. The vast majority of FIRSTies are good losers. Some are whiners. I encourage the whining minority to emulate the majority.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

Thank you, we had a great time. That was our first experience in elimination rounds (we didn't get picked at GLR or WMR) and we couldn't have asked for better alliance partners.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

I would have to disagree with this. That leaves not hope for teams in the middle of the pack or near the bottom. We were a defensive team this year and had a tough time winning matches if we didn't have an offensive team with us. We finished 2-5 and were ranked 74th. Under your proposed system, we could've packed the robot up Friday night because we wouldn't have had a chance. Instead, we got noticed by the #2 seed and ended up playing our way to the semi's. You've got to leave the opportunity open for the "cinderella story" to happen. Maybe there could be another way to do the ranking points, but I kind of like the way that is set up. Just my $.02 for what it's worth.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with the ranking process. The problem is very simple--there need to be more than 7 qualifying matches per team.

That, and the serpentine shouldn't come back.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

That's the same as saying there should be fewer teams per division, assuming that the time available for qualifying matches won't increase.

Is 86 teams too many?

Re: Newton Discussion
 

Maybe 4 divisions is not enough? I think they could easily fit one more field in the Dome, and also Einstein could be used, giving 6 divisions. That would be something closer to 55 teams per division - much more reasonable. The tricky part would be figuring out how to have a fair playoff for the Championship winner.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

Round robin tourney.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

With that, where would the lego league play since they use Einstein on thursday and friday?

Re: Newton Discussion
 

Yeah, it's gonna be tricky to devise a fair system if N(divisions) is not equal to 2^k for some integer k

Re: Newton Discussion
 

I think the ideal situation would be that 6 fields are run between the 4 divisions.

That can't happen though--IFI doesn't have enough frequencies.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

Single match per round instead of best two out of three?

Re: Newton Discussion
 

In previous years at epcot, Einstein was an open field. Every team no matter what division you were on got to play a match on Einstein which was your NASA televised field. Now that FLL has taken over Einstein there is a shortage of fields. The only other solution would be add another day to competition or make the event days longer, which will never happen. The way things are now is very exhausting and adding a day makes it worse. Just face it 7 matches is all we will ever get unless someone comes up with a genius idea and it somehow works.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

Thinking back to our regional, we only had about 50 teams. There were 8 matches instead of 7. If you do the math, if the cut the divisions in half, that would allow for one more match. It would require 8 fields and I don't think that will happen.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

Good point, but at the same time that FIRST tries to sell themselves as a sporting event, they brag about how different it is. Most years, it seems that there are two main strategies to a game - offensive and defensive. More often than not, the defensive teams do not make the top 8, but rely on the fact that the the top 8 offensive teams will need a good defensive team to advance in the eliminations. This makes for interesting strategy decisions in early Jan. - Do you want to be an offensive team and hope your good enough to be in the top 8 or a defensive team and hope your good enough that someone in the top 8 picks you? FIRST is supposed to be about more than just wins and losses - the collaboration is a big part.

I also want to add that my argument doesn't come soley from the fact that I'm on a rookie team who spent their season in the middle to bottom of the pack (although that has some influence). I spent the previous 4 years with a team who was most often in or near the top 8 - only once in those four years did we leave a regional without playing in the eliminations. I liked the fact that we could pick whatever team (no matter where they ranked) we felt best complimented our robot and gave us the best chance to win. I also didn't mind that if we were out of the top 8, we would have to hope someone thought we could help them win. It adds to the excitment of the whole process.

Lastly, as was said in an earlier post - 7 matches is not enough to fairly determine rankings. So much importance goes to the randomness of who your alliance partners are in qualifying matches. Hence, the importance of scouting.

Debate away - just my opinion (and you know what they say about opinions).

Re: Newton Discussion
 

You managed to capture the message I deleted. Anyway, after I sent it I finally remembered that the Top 8 are truly the winners of the division. At that point, scoring goes out the window. I totally agree, 7 matches is not enough, but I don't think that will ever be solved. It is already to big to handle it any other way.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

Craig
You are right in Atlanta I heard at some regional there was a team that was dead last. During the picking some team pick the dead last team and ending up going to the finals.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

I don't think that they were last but I know that 11 was seeded 8th at Palmetto, got bumped up to 6th Allaince Captain...then picked the 41st and the 44th seeded teams and wound up sweeping their way through the elimination rounds to win Palmetto.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

Sounds like you did some good scouting! Team 177 did something similar at UTC and won.

Re: Newton Discussion
 

Bobcats also did that at Philly, and on Galileo...Bobcat Robotics can do my scouting any day of the week! (I figured you could use a break, Ashley)