Re: Team Governance
 

Very good point I feel the students should have control of the robot design but the mentors need to act a guardrail against designs that are way beyond their teams capabilities, some teams (mine included) just don't have access to a fancy machine shop, but then everyone should be open to pushing your limits and leaving your comfort zone to meet the game challenges. This year my team stayed in our comfort zone in regards to out drive train (KOP 4W wide set up) It came down to deciding between that and a KOP 6W narrow and we chose the 4W wide set up because we hadn't done 6W before (even though the KOP frame is designed to easily support it. So the moral don't be afraid to try something new but know your max limits.

Re: Team Governance
 

Team governance has to be the single thing my team has had more trouble with than all our other troubles combined. After our 6th year we still don't have a really good system in place, it seems to change every year or two.

From my team's experience, this is my biggest piece of advice; do not leave all the leadership and knowledge on how to do what in the hands of one or two people, whether they be mentors or students. You can never be sure how long a person will be involved with the club or how well they will live up to their job. We have had 3 different teacher sponsors over the years because they've all left for various reasons (most not by choice), and we will have a new 4th one next year. In addition we've had 2 different years where student Presidents have failed to do their job, and the mentors and other officers have had to step up and replace them. Luckily we've always had a group of students and mentors in charge so the loss of a single leader has not completely destroyed the team, though it can frustrate things.

I'm hoping to keep having a group in charge (currently we have 5 student officers, a main teacher sponsor, and a main engineering mentor). I recommend trying to have various experience levels for students (more than just seniors) in charge, because it is quite a pain to have "rollover" years where all the former officers leave. In my opinion, your students should also always be able to communicate equally with mentors and teachers, with students getting the final say in most robot and event manners while adults have the last word when it comes to travel and finances.

Re: Team Governance
 

YES! I am a MENTOR. Not a chaperone. I am busy all day, I don't want to deal with the stupidity that may or may not go on at night. I'm flying to Atlanta, and the students are going by bus. Besides, I might see something as a cool physics experiment, where a chaperone might see someone dropping pop cans down the stair wells.

Which brings me to another point. We have a great group of parents that formed a Booster Club for the team. They call themselves the RPMs. Robotics Parents and Mentors. (Cute, huh?) They help out a huge amount. I don't even like thinking about the days before they came to be.

However you organize, a strong parents group is always a good addition. Our's helps with food, travel, fundraising, dues, overall organization, and I think it helps all parents feel more comfortable handing over their kids for 6 weeks to a small group of "crazy" engineers with power tools.

Re: Team Governance
 

That's funny because our parent mentors call themselves Raider Parent Mentors(RPM). The parents are our strongest supporters because they see their kids life change right in their face.

Re: Team Governance
 

Every team works in a slightly different fashion. Further more there are many many ways to operate. There is no 'right way' or 'target model' everyone should follow. However, I feel teams should be organized like the (ideal) Boy Scout troops: providing leadership opportunities by self governance. While the mentors should have the final say, their purpose is to guide the students. Fundamentally, the students should be creating the robot they want. If students are happy being in the backseat by not being involved in the design or fabrication process, then that is fine. Item number one should always be that they are inspired by the program. How to best inspire is of course subject to debate.

Re: Team Governance
 

Hmmm.. I have held off replying to this post for several days. I am really hoping that you did not intend this post to come across sounding the way I am interpreting it. But I can't ignore this. Are you saying that because you are a "mentor" you are not part of the team? That you are not responsible for the students you are supposedly mentoring? I am assuming that you are an engineering "mentor" and do not feel that you should be involved in team issues other than those that involved the robot. (Please correct me if I am wrong in my assumptions). Are other teams set up this way?
Is your parent booster club separate from the "team"? An interesting dynamic. Why do you not consider your parents or other NEMs to be "Mentors" as well as the engineers?

Re: Team Governance
 

Kathie, since Not2B was replying to a message in which I voiced the same theme, I'll chime back in.

My wife and are the primary engineering mentors on our teem. My wife also has been handling most of the club management details. I've made it clear to the team that my interest lies in designing and building the robots. If I stay involved, I plan on not working the pit next year. It's just too much stress and hassle. My wife and I aren't parents and don't enjoy playing disciplinarians. During the build we're pretty much stuck with that role. Also, during the build, the team is more than a full time job for us. Choosing our role within the team doesn't mean we think we're not part of the team. Nor do we think others who are involved with the team are not mentors. However, on our team few parents have gotten involved at all.

And we do NOT want to be responsible for the kids on the team. It's bad enough in the setting at school and at the competition event but in the less structured setting after hours at the competition, we see it as a no win situation, a source of probable aggravation, and an additional liability exposure. Frankly, we feel chaperoning the team is something better and more appropriately handled by the parents.

Re: Team Governance
 

Back from the ATL...

Well, let me see if I can explain... As a mentor, I am a HUGE part of the team. The RPM booster club is, after all, the robotics PARENTS and MENTORS. A mentor doesn't have any students on the team. A parent does have a student on the team. That's the big difference. Some mentors have NO techical background. My wife is a mentor - and she works in advertising. We do have one parent who wants to be called a mentor because he doesn't want people to think of him as a fellow student's dad, and that's cool. No real difference. Just the way the parent's started the booster club, and just the way it stuck.

As mentors, we help with technical design. But we also help with chairman's awards. With fundraising ideas. With team building parties. With scholarship activites. Off season activites. Helping the school develop an intro to engineering class. Etc... etc... etc... I would say the mentors and parents are very much part of the team. Otherwise, we wouldn't be shot up in laser tag, stay up all night at a 24 hour walk-a-thon for cancer research, and spend our summers helping students build RC cars.

I think that helps frame where our team comes from...

All I was saying is that, as a mentor on a trip, we are responsible for alot of what is going on in the pits and all the field. As you know, it's a long day. In addition to having fun and learning with the students, we are typically responsible for the safety and learning that the students are involved with. We have limited mentors (or parents) and we need backup. At the end of the competition day, it's good to know that we have parents as chaperones. "Mentors" get tired. I think we all feel safer knowing that a fresh set of people are there to step in and help out. That doesn't mean we don't go out to dinner with the team, or play cards in hotel rooms until late at night. But is does mean that I don't have to drag myself out of bed at check-in time and make sure everyone is where they need to be, because I know someone else is doing that check.

As far as the bus/plane issue - This is the second time in 5 years I have not traveled with the team. I've done the bus many times. But because my company does not allow for time off for robotics, I had to get down and back quickly.

So I think this is a definition issue. If you've ever seen our robot, you'd know that the "mentors" are not there only to work on the robot. If anything, we work on the students, and let the robot go by the way side. Part of our definition system is not identifing non-engineering mentors - we are all just mentors. I don't mind calling out some people as non-engineering, but we don't. It's all good.

I hope this helps - sorry to be so long winded. Let me know if you have any other questions.

If you need more proof, I have a sinking feeling that there will be a few videos of me from Atlanta on this website in a few days. The students are still trying to decide if they like "Bungee Brian" or "Screaming Brian" better.

Re: Team Governance
 

OK Not2b is not only a part of the team HE IS THE HEART & SOUL OF IT. He is responsible for the students on our team under his Head Mentor-ship we have had only one injury on the team in 5 years, why? because he keeps us from doing something dumb. He not only mentors or team he has kept is alive and cheerful through our darkest & hardest years. He donates his evenings, weekends, vacation days, and his birthdays to be with the team. Brian is the kind of mentor that can fill your head with knowledge & inspire you to do your best then be cool enough to verse your in moon bounce basket ball later that day, and I have the greatest respect for him because of it.

We have a large team OF STUDENTS we only have 5 mentors for a team of around 70. Mentors are there as volunteers of their time they are there to teach and inspire us NOT BABYSIT US. After a full days worth of working on the robot, and managing the students the mentors deserve a break, their should be someone else to keep an eye on us after the competition.

Re: Team Governance
 

Thanks for your replies, I have a better understanding of where you are coming from now. I have a different mindset on the issue, but as we all know there is no pattern for how a team should be formed and how it should function. I think as long as the mentor roles are clearly defined and everyone has the same expectations about who will be with the team outside of the competition then you will avoid any misunderstandings.

Sorry for getting off-topic in this thread.

Re: Team Governance
 

Thanks to all who've replied here. I appreciate all your input.

It's been a while since anyone's looked at this thread, methinks.

Is there any chance that my original question hurt my team's chances of winning the Rookie Allstar Award in Atlanta?

Thanks,
Paul Dennis

Re: Team Governance
 

I'm not sure if anyone else noticed this, but I find it interesting that in the first and the last two options, it says, 'My team' and for the middle two, 'Our team'. But anyway, my team didn't really have student leaders this year. Meetings were held to discuss different issues and to make decisions for the team. Right now, I need to get ready to leave for next class, so maybe I'll edit this post when I get home.

Re: Team Governance
 

One of the many things that FIRST gets right is the caliber of the people involved, judges, regional directors, volunteers, FIRST senior mentors, you name it - the caliber is there. The integrity is there.

I re-read your post before I wrote this. It was a thoughtful and polite post from someone who was excited about the FIRST experience and who would like to help his team develop and grow. Nothing wrong with that.

Jane
p.s. this is in response to Paul, sorry not to include quote.

Re: Team Governance
 

Slim to none.
That said, there are judges who are on chiefdelphi. (me, for example.)
Although this is a wonderful place to get questions answered and to gather different points of view, everyone needs to remember that what they post may reflect back on their team-both the positive and the negative.

Re: Team Governance
 

LIke others, our system of govrnment changes a little year to year. A lot of people consider us a young team. We are going into our 5th year next year.
Our team is setup like this:
We have 3 lead mentors on our side of things (not including FRC mentors from the Students at Georgia Tech and Jeremy Roberts)
Below our 3 mentors is our executive board. We have a CEO (me), a Chief Information Officer, a Chief Financial Officer, and an Exectuive Secretary. Now these are all fancy terms for PResident, VP, Treasurer, and Secretary.
We divide ourselves into subgroups based on questionaires that are filled out in the beginning of the year in which we ask people what type of experience they have and wht teams they want to be on.
Our teams:
FRC Build- Builds the FRC bot
FVC Build -Builds the VEX bot
FLL Mentor Team -Mentors a lot of FLL teams and helps hold Georgia subrrgionals
BEST Robotics Build Team -Builds the BEST Robot
Scouting Team - Scouts and develops scouting sheets
Personal Relations Team -Plans Outreacha events and tries to get our name out in the community
Fundrasising Team - helps plan fundraising events
Tech Team - design t shirt, create scouting DB, CAD, website etc.
Maintenance Team - Helps keep the robots that we have still working
Coomunication Team - gets info out to everyone int eh club and works with the PR team on publications about us

PRetty much, most major descisions dealing with the club come from teh Executive board and the Sponsors. We work very well together and usually have the same ideas so there aren't any problems. If there si somethign we don't agree upon, we usually talk about it and analyz all the pros and cons and then find a compromise or someone's mind gets changed. An example would be something like deciding upon the requirements to travel, systems for scouting, creating new teams, etc.
We are given A LOT of free roam to try and pursue ideas that we want to try out. For instance, I asked my mentor Mr. Rosen abot whether or not w could try and run a camp. He told me to come up witht ehcurriculum schedule, and plan on how to publicize and we will analyze whether or not we can pursue it further. Higher up execs and leaders can organize outreach evnts and just let the mentors know what is going on and show them what we are going to do and how we are transporting bots and stuff there and they will just say ok and make sure it doesn't conflict with an other events we have going on.

On the FRC side of things we come to the design phase as equals and all try and design and analyze pros and cons of different ideas together. The final say ont he design this year came from us all finally agreeing on our final design and then going out to pursue it. Our student team leader usually has the final say on who works on what.
When it comes to descions during build such as if something doesn't seem to be working out, (like our 3 original shooters), it usually is up to our lead FRC mentor from the Georgia Tech side to make a design change. All design changes go through him. He is the project manager for the robot.
I hope this helped maybe it didn't. I have A TON of documents on our team structure and our constitution. If you want to take a look at any of this, just PM me and let me know.
I really like the setup of team 234's team. They won the entreprenuership award this year at Nationals. Congrats team 234.