the good and the bad
 

In the first community we always try to improve ourselves. I would like to see the good and the bad things first did this year. When posting i want to see a 1to1 ratio of good to bad or any ratio leaning more towards good. This is meant to improve first.


Good
1. bumpers- If any team was going to rip the bumpers to hell and beyond it was going to be us. I think the bumpers where the best thing first did this year. It lets the robots take much less abuse.
2. Permanent scoring- I liked the fact that once you scored that was it. Although in the 2000 game descoring was pretty cool.
3. 2 robots on defence- This was another huge thing first did. It gave any team the chance to to score because at least one robot could help defend the shooter. If all 3 robots were allowed to play defence this game would be boring

Bad
1. scoring system- The concept of a computer scoring it a great idea but I think the system was not up to par. I do not think first should give up on this but improve the scoring system computing power. If done right it will make first a much more fun game to watch.
2. Atlanta- I have talked to people in the know and i know what happened with us going to Atlanta next year but i really hope first goes back to Disney


shaun

Re: the good and the bad
 

must've been awesome having nationals at Epcot, wish I would have been there.

One huge positive this year for me was the camera as well as the lit target. I think this is a staple that should always be included in the FIRST games. The ability to know where the target is in autonomous makes it a whole lot more interesting.

I also like the level of math needed for this year's competition. I had... well, am having :yikes: , a great time writing code for the challenge this year. Mostly because of the camera in autonomous and the complicated bits of shooting a ball accurately.

One negative to this years competition is the drainage rate of the center goal. On several occasions alliances we have played with overloaded the goal, causing a good number of balls to simply fall (not bounce) out. :ahh:

All in all, I think this year's game is great.

-Q

Re: the good and the bad
 

The good:

Meaningful autonomous mode. REALLY meaningful autonomous mode. In fact, in some matches, more scoring goes on than in the rest of the match combined.

The ramp scoring system. It provides incentive for any team to make it to the ramp but to get a large bonus you need all three robots on the ramp.

Defense is back and with a vengeance! I know some people will disagree with me but I love to see defense in a game. Last years game was (comparably) boring since little or no defence occured.

3-point goal versus 1-point goals. FIRST really did a good job of balancing the potential scoring this year. Advanced teams with lots of resources can (and have) made excellent shooters. Yet the one point goals have made it possible for non-shooters to be very competitive.


The bad:

As said before, the automated scoring is awful. Rewatching matches shows that many teams scores are off. It is usually a couple of points here and there but it can make the difference between victory and defeat.

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uhmmm... WHAT ?!?!?

did I miss something about atlanta next year?

being unwanted at Atlanta next year would be a way-bad thing for FIRST

Re: the good and the bad
 

I think he means with the decision to return to Atlanta in 2007.

Re: the good and the bad
 

The Good:

Bumpers, I agree 100 percent it allowed this year to be played very defensivly without having to waste alot of weight making the bottom stonger and better protected and without making it look like battle bots.

Boston Regional: This regional was an awesome addition and was easily the best regional I have been too.

Periods: I loved the fact that you had to develop a strategy for both offense and Defense, It played more like a sporting game.

Refs and Queing (I think that is the word, the people who tell you to line up): At both of our regionals the Refs and Queing staff were excellent, they were more than happy to answer any questions you might have and were very efficient at keeping things moving along smoothly.

The Bad (note: overall I was extremely happy with this year,These things just need to be tweaked a little):

Scoring system: In theory I loved it, unfortunatly it wasn't reliable, I believe this was far more confusing to spectators thanto the drive team. HoweverI did like that you could refer to it for an appoximate score rather than having to pay attention to who was scoring while you were trying to drive. In the future if it can be refined it would be great.

Lack of a definitive rule for side goal intrusion: while this didn't effect us because we had the same head ref (Benji) at both of our events I have heard from friends on other teams that they were penalized at some events for things that were common at other events, This seems like the hardest thing to fix because FIRST tries hard already to keep things fair and there are so many different refs.

Re: the good and the bad
 

I believe FIRST renewed a 4 year contract with the Georgia World Conference Center. So that means we'll be there until at least 2010.

Re: the good and the bad
 

One good thing:

I like the Georgia Dome/Convention Center combination for an event of this magnitude. (I disliked the sun on the Einstein Field and the distractions at Disney, too many of the kids were on the team to go to Disney, period)

One bad thing:

Although I really like this year's game, the corner goal incursion rule seemed clearer in print than in practice. (The refs were consistent at both events we attended, which helped us adjust before any penalties on our robot.)

Re: the good and the bad
 

The Good:

The light for the camera, this year makes is so much easier to see, even though I've never done any programming. The color consistency is great. I remember from last year they were announcing what color to look for on the Tetras that were on the field.

Bumpers are great, I'm surprised that there aren't more robots with them. The cushion they provide can save robots.

The game itself, This is the most exciting game I've seen so far, starting with Stack Attack. The different periods are just awesome.That "more like a sporting game" is the exact way to describe it.

Alliance Selection, It doesn't favor benign the number one seed as much as in the past. It also make scouting so much more critical. Because finding that "diamond in the rough" is so much harder when 15 teams have already been selected instead of 8.

The Bad:

Scoring System, I agree that in time it will improve. At the regionals that we attended, I think they were manually counting balls for the final score. But it sure was nice to see a score during the matches, even if its not "official".

I really don't see anything else thats bad. It is so hard trying to find something bad when is so much thats good.

Re: the good and the bad
 

The Good
Lighted Camera Target - Look at how many teams successfully and meaningfully used the camera this year.
Autonomous Offense/Defense - Starting all robots fully loaded and in the center of the field is a great idea. Now scouting/strategy is key and Autonomous is like a 10sec chess match. Before the match, you wonder how it is going to to play out once the 6 bots start moving. In the past, did you ever watch Auton and say "Wow, they changed their Auto Routine!". Auto D routines were easy, effective and inspired more teams to learn how to code.
Bumpers - First took away wedges and some penalties, but gave you another means to protect your bot.
Shooting Stuff - every year the question would come up, "Can we launch the game element?" The answer was always "no". Now the answer is "Of course, didn't you see Dave's animation?". Maybe. Frisbees next year :D

The Bad
Scoring System - It is now cliche to pick on the scoring system. I think sensor based scoring could work, the sensors just need to be positioned better. The cameras can't take the Alliance Wall hits, and the center goal beam needs to be lower in the tube.
Fix-it Window Timing - the 2 5-hour block thing was inconvenient/unfair. Just give teams 10 hours.
Shooter Speed Testing - All year teams were wondering how FIRST would test speed and how they could test their own speed. Teams could have built their own official speed tester from KIT parts if FIRST told them what it was and provided the LabVIEW code.

Re: the good and the bad
 

Good:
the rulebook - Every year the manual get stronger and stronger. Kepp up the good work FIRST.
The game - Defense, shooting balls, climbing ramps, can this game get an more exciting?

Re: the good and the bad
 

This is got to be the best game ever!

Re: the good and the bad
 

As scoring seems to be a major problem this year, I have decided to test out some solutions and possibly even send them to FIRST. Dont give up on instant scoring it makes things alot easier on the volunteers and keeps games running fast and smooth.

"Never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, give in. Never give in. Never give in. Never give in."
-Sir Winston Churchill
October 29, 1941

Re: the good and the bad
 

Good:

The game and its appeal - Very easy to explain to people who are new to the FIRST program ("think about basketball...")

Bad:

The algorithm that decides who plays who in which match for the qualifying rounds. Lots of repeat. Dont' get me wrong, I absolutely love 1501 and was honored to be with them like...5 or 6 matches of the 10 qualifying, but I also love trying new things and working with different partners.

Re: the good and the bad
 

Good

The Game finally some entartaining web television

Superregionals again something fun to watch and something that i now want to experance

Sprit for some reason this year, everyting is more filled of sprit

Atlanta (for this year) it's centreal and big enough to support FIRST championship, it takes alot in putting a event of this callibar together, so i think it's a good idea to thank the people who made it possible, FIRST thing on thursday morning and last thing saturday night.

Okay

Allince Selections makes if more fair, not if your #1 Seed

Bumpers I can see this going both ways, this could apply to the balls getting ripped up as well.

Bad

The "Wedge" Rule If there were still wedges, 2 robots wouldn't be busy difending 2 opposing robots form a powerful shooter like 25 or 254 or 1114, they could play the game themselves, plus it would make the game more exciting DOURING the game than at the END when everyone is racing for the ramp. (and anyways, most teams already know if they can get on the ramp or not by atlanta, so i don't think there will be alot of tipping.)

NASA Webcasting I think independent agensey's should take care of the webcasting, therefore, we have more selection (sort of like 111 and the Midwest regional)

Championship Division Size Maybe have two feilds per division

Re: the good and the bad
 

I'm not very familiar with the purpose or rules regarding the wegde, can someone quickly fill me in.

Re: the good and the bad
 

Sides cannot be pitched anymore than 10 degrees from vertical

Re: the good and the bad
 

Good

The Challenge Really fun to participate in and pretty challenging to build, which makes things a lot more interesting.

The Manual As mentioned before, the manual is getting stronger (it's only my second year and I can already tell the improvement ;) )

GTR! Awesome Regional! Lots of teams, Lots of different robots, Lots of great people to meet, Non-stop action! It was a REALLY fun event to attend. Out of all the possible regionals to go to, I'm glad we picked this one, and I hope to see more like events like this.

Bumpers Our robot has a lot of smashes on the frame even with the bumpers on. I'm scared to imagine our frame without it!! :ahh: :ahh:

Kit of Parts Like Dave said, there are a lot more things added to the kit this year which is great! More things to choose from! :D

Bad

Regional Problems I understand that there will be a couple of technical difficulties, but from what I read on here, the regionals in the first two/three weeks didn't go smoothly, and I heard a lot of complaints from teams who should have won matches, but didn't because of errors in FIRST's system. FIRST should have perfected the field prior to the competitions, as teams are paying money to compete, it should be fair. (on the plus side) The GTR ran pretty smoothly though.

Re: the good and the bad
 

It's ten (10) degrees.
Some background: In the past, it was common practice for teams who did not want to be defended to put sloping sides on their robots. The idea was that if a defender drove onto the wedge, they would be immobilized (other than reversing to get off) and not disturb the robot with wedges. Should the defender tip over, it could be the fault of the team with the wedge (front or back wedge, mostly) or not (side wedges, mostly). However, this year, FIRST listened to the defenders who didn't like wedges (instead of the majority of voters in a poll on this subject on CD) and outlawed any slope in the "bumper zone" greater than 10 degrees. To counterbalance this, they allowed bumpers to be extra weight if they were of a certain design.

Re: the good and the bad
 

Bumpers have been allowed for years, but few people chose to use them

Re: the good and the bad
 

Well, I'm not really at leisure to say much about this year, considering that I'm a rookie, but I can definitely compliment (and critique, constructively) FIRST for their 2006 game.

The Good:

Variety of Regoinals and Teams.
I'm really glad to see all of the different teams at this year's game. It's really fun to meet new people and make new friends, and I commend FIRST for their outreach and their inspirational morals that help raise awareness toward students of all ages and backgrounds. The regoinals also introduce teams to people of different nationalities, and I think that it's cool to here about regionals overseas and in Canada and the teams that are there.

The Rules.
The rule book was very cleverly thought out, and it left little ambiguouty towards any rule. It was easy to understand, and even after skimming through it for an afternoon, I was able to understand the game much better.

The Refs, MCs, and Volunteers.
I am really happy to see all of the people that are willing to help promote the FIRST message, including the referees who volunteer their time to help out and the MCs who really liven the atmosphere of the competition. Also, major kudos to all of the people behind the scenes who help make all of this possible.

Edit: How could I forget the game? This is way more exciting than any professional sport, and this game had me on the edge of my seat from beginning to end!

The Bad

Automatic Scoring.
I really haven't anything to say that hasn't already been said, but I can just say that the auto-scoring could use a little tweeking, considering the errors that some teams had encountered during many deciding matches.

Another thing that sort of grinds my gears is the venue personel. At Davis, we had our banner up in the stands so that we could have a definite place to met after a match. But on the second day of the competition, some personel at the venue decided to move our banner without telling our team. It ended up some 50-odd feet away in an area with filled seats. We were even evicted from our seats because "judges needed to have a higher view to see the matches". But the seats remained empty, and were eventually filled with a gathering crowd of late-arriving spectators. We had to settle for the nosebleed section, waaaay up there in the stands. And trust me, trying to scout robots the size of ants doesn't make our scouting job any easier.

Re: the good and the bad
 

This is all great feedback. Be sure your team leaders hear your feedback and they take the opportunity to submit it to FIRST via the survey or team forums.

Re: the good and the bad
 

GOOD:

How about the bots? There was a great variety of 3-pointers, 1-pointers, great defense bots, and a variety of the three.

Frustrating: the camera. Lovely when it worked, but not so grand when it decided not to (I say this as a programmer). And that is all I'm going to say about that.

Re: the good and the bad
 

GOOD
Game-This is an excellent game. It is intense and is fun to watch. The field is wide open which is a big twist as opposed to other games.

Strategy-There are many diferent ways to play this year's game and aliance selection (Which Leads to My next point).

Picking-THis is an interesting thing about this years game. It has greatly leveled the playing field. At no regional that I attended did the Number one seed win it all. It seems that the game favored the 3-4 seed as they were able to get a strong first pick and a mid-level second pick.

BAD
Autonomous-It makes this years game exciting but 70% of matches are decided by who wins autonomous. The 10 point bonus is such a deficit that most matches between equal aliances are over in 10 seconds.

Field Problems/Real Time Scoring-This was more at Wisconsin regional where field problems interupted almost every other match, but it was at other regionals as well. Also that scoring system likes to break your heart. In the First match at Wisconsin the scores were wrong and really hurt when you watch your team win by 20 points acording to the scoring system, only to lose by 20 points when the scores are posted.

Re: the good and the bad
 

great job of on the posts so far guys. I am sure there are higher ups reading getting great info on what is going on. :)


shaun

Re: the good and the bad
 

Good:
-Bumpers turned out to be a great idea for the game, and I think more teams have already decided to use bumpers next year.
-Making autonomous a more crucial part of the challenge.

Bad:
-Scoring system was not reliable. I've heard all sorts of stories about teams that lost because of scoring errors.
-Offense, defense, and free-for-all. This was really confusing and many offsides penalties were the results.


2007? ;)

Re: the good and the bad
 

Good

Autonomous- autonomous finally had a large effect on the game, and teams took notice and a majority began to utilize it at last. Going with this, the camera was also a good improvement as FIRST made targets that were a more consistent color and gave more support for the camera.

Bumpers- saved our robot numerous times from potentially bad damage and made for more defense. Plus I like all the extra weight we can get.

Q & A System- Not only did I think this year's manual had fewer questions than previous ones, the question and answer system was extremely easy to navigate and keep up to date with. Responses to questions came very quickly.

Game- with projectiles suddenly being allowed, no teams had experience with doing this for a past game, and it seemed to level out the playing field between well established and more recent teams. Plus everyone loves flying poof balls.

Robot Controller- the increased code space and variable space was definitely needed, we ran out of code space last year and would have this year if we still had the same RC.

KOP- We used so many pieces from this year's kit of parts for our robot it's not even funny.

Bad

Scoring system- with the new ability to score continuously, a new scoring system needed to be implemented, and unfortunately it didn't work as well as hoped. It has great potential, there just needs to be a way to avoid the "jammed" sensor.

Ball Returns- with so many balls and such fast scoring, the goals tended to pile up with balls as return chutes could not cope.

Corner Goal Incursion Penalty- the penalty itself wasn't a bad thing (since it's basically for interfering with the scoring system), but a different punishment is needed; I would rather my alliance receive a 30 point penalty like the loading zone last year than to automatically lose the match in eliminations.

Re: the good and the bad
 

Oh, bumpers have been allowed for years all right. It was just so hard to fit them into the 130, then 120, pounds of metal that is a robot that few did it. Now, we have a design (or you can design your own, inside the box and underweight) that, if you use it, you get 15 extra pounds and a few extra (max of 4, I believe) inches in the bumper zone.

Re: the good and the bad
 

Good

Bumpers I think it was a great addition to help protect robot and to strategy in many ways

Game I LOVE this game, so many ways to play, and the robots get to SHOOT BALLS.

Manual so few updates to the rules GDC did awesome this year

Kitbot The Kitbot has really helped competitiveness it gives all the teams an equal starting place a good drive train

Teams I've seen so many great robots this year, and haven't had a bad encounter with any team

Real Time Scoring even with all its problems its really helped make FIRST more spectator friendly

Needs Improvement (I won't say "bad" because I don't see it as being GP)

Real Time Scoring A great asset but up being unreliable at times

Field Problems Topic covered here

Thats all I have for now.

Re: the good and the bad
 

I'm afraid I'm a bit confused by this. I assume you're hoping for more webcasts of more events and such? I don't think this is really NASA's fault. I suspect NASA would like to, or atleast be capable of, hosting webcasts of all the events. I think the problem is simply that regionals don't have funds for the ISDN lines, or personnel to set up the equipment, or the equipment itself. I'll note that the equipment itself isn't that complicated. LSR uses a standard Polycom Viewstation to transmit the video to NASA. You could manage with any ISDN capable videoconferencing unit, or probably even a computer with an ISDN modem. As for personnel... Well if you rent equipment from a local AV firm, you could probably hire someone to set it up for you as well. It doesn't take long.

The real problem is that all of these things take money that some regionals just don't have.

Re: the good and the bad
 

Let me alaberate on what i said earlier

When i said that, i was meaning by having easier acess, less technical issues, and overall, better qualitywise webcasts broadcasted, for example, some regionals arn't as exciting as others, and those that are exciting end up having the problems, for example, i can say GTR was the best regional hands down AFTER a week when the SF's and F's were archived onto websites, i tried to tune in and it didn't work on saturday morning, i tried all day saturday but yet, nothing changed, i posted my problems on CD and nothing changed.. I think that every regional (UCF, VCU, the ones at the collages), probally have a TV crew, Film Club or something of that nature, maybe use their etquitment or personall, and that way, these people would get real world experance, and if it so happenes that the collage students end up having problems, they have the pro's from NASA or w/e voleters to fall back on

Think about all the Regionals that can be broadcasted useing this method. I think it's cost effective, because it's not like renting out servers, just use the schools, and your letting collage students get inspired by doing this and this way, i think everyone would win

Re: the good and the bad
 

If they are using ISDN modems we are in trouble. If each regional already has contracted the video work to another company things become a lot easier. I believe for the Florida Regional and others they used "Top Productions" Its very easy to set up a stream but the personnel it requires to send people to each event where a NASA site isn't located makes it difficult. Bandwith is not a problem. The problem is justifying having to send a computer and a rep to each event.

Re: the good and the bad
 

The Good:

-The Importance of Autonomous- Last year although autonomous was key, it usually did not deter the outcome of the match. This year, auton has EVERYTHING to do with the match.
-Boston regional-to echo some people, the Boston regional was one of my best FIRST experiences ever.
-The ramps- a really neat way to add a spin to the game

The Bad:

to add to a lot of people, the real time scoring. Although it was a fantastic idea it caused for a lot of mayhem at some of the regionals, and hopefully it will be used again next year, just improved upon.

Re: the good and the bad
 

Good
Robots actually moved and did something in autonomous.
Easy-C. Our team always seams to bog down with programming. This year
the programming was very do able by the students.
The alliance picking scheme.

Bad
Each year the entrance fee and funding hurdle seams to get bigger. Our school distinct supposedly supports our team but they sure Know how to put hurdles in our path.

Re: the good and the bad
 

Well for now, I would have to say the bumpers were a great addition this year. It help robots defend other robots without getting damage. Hopefully FIRST will keep this for years to come.