Saving Seats
 

I'm sorry to beat this to death, but despite three clear mentioning in the manual, it seems that some teams still do not understand that the saving of seats is not permitted. This rule was broken numerous times in the Curie stands during qualifying. What made it this even worse, was that when my scouts pointed out these rules, they were verbally abused and told they "weren't being very graciously professional".

I understand that many teams have large groups and want everyone to sit together. This can be accomplished without saving large blocks of seats. Follow the example of Team 1511, who cordoned off a large block, but were more than willing to make room for anyone and everyone who asked. (BTW, thank you)

If you want to ensure that your entire team sits together, have all members get to the dome early. It's really that simple.

Re: Saving Seats
 

We save seats, but only for our team and we also will give seats to anyone who needs them. We try and get enough room but leave room to. This year I only attended two regionals, Boilermaker and West Michigan. There were about 12-15 students with around 10-15 parents and mentors at Boilermaker from our team. There was plenty of room there. At West Michigan we knew we would have around 70-80 people on Saturday, and that seats would be hard to come by.

As for how we saved seats, we try and have as many people from the team go to the stands first. We then try and save a little section thats around the size of our team.

From what I remember from nationals last year, it wasn't to hard to find seats, but that was last year. Anyhoo, its always hard to find seat during the elimination rounds, and awards ceremonies. As for saving seats, you should be able to save them, within reason. If your team has around 30 people at the event, don't try and save 40 seats, try and save around 25 seats or just make room when your teamates come by.

Re: Saving Seats
 

our team saved seats in atlanta, but we also gave them up to those who asked. we really didnt have a huge group, so we werent like the others saving like 5+ rows, but still, sorry if you tried to take a seat and a member of 108 was rude

Re: Saving Seats
 

We saved two half rows, and ended up losing most of them so we had to sit in two places at Nationals. Because we have such a small team the people weren't just sitting there, we were scouting. That, and we were a Cal team and none of us had ever been that far from home, we didn't want to get spereated. Don't know what we're going top do next year then. We were having major drama back in the pits, so sorry if 973 gave anyone issues.

Re: Saving Seats
 

I still wish that that scouting section were made a reality :(

In terms of saving seats, I encountered a team in which they literally saved nearly six full rows of seats with no markers at all, just one person. When we were seated already, this person yelled and said something to the order of "Don't sit there! Those seats are saved!". Of course, the next day, I was told the entre scouting section went to the arena really early and managed to get seats for everyone without a problem :)

Re: Saving Seats
 

We had the same issues at the BAE granite state regional.

I even saw a team turn away an elderly lady with 2 young children (looked like her grandchildren).

Re: Saving Seats
 

I hope it wasn't us...

Re: Saving Seats
 

I did inform a team about the rule, but my teammates told me to just forget about it. Now I'm not sure of what's right... following the rule, or following my peers.

Re: Saving Seats
 

On this note I would like to draw attention to the utter ciaos that FIRST caused while, in my opinion, being very un-GP themselves by attempting to "save seats" before the finals and award ceremony in the section directly in front of the awards platform. Our team did not go to the Championship but myself and 2 other mentors traveled to Atlanta just to watch and checkout what was going on in the pits. Just before lunch on Saturday we grabbed 3 seats on the very top row of the lower section just in front of the awards platform halfway between the Galileo and Einstein fields. After lunch "officials" (some looked like FIRST and/or arena people and later some were even GA State Police) cleared the stands in that section 3 SEPARATE TIMES of all teams in front of us. They were (I think) trying to save seats for the teams that were going to make it into the finals on Einstein or something but they just had absolutely no control of the situation. They never "roped off" the area with yellow tape to let people know not to sit there so people would come and sit and fill-up the section and then the "officials" would go through row by row telling everyone to get up and sit somewhere else. They did this 3 separate times! Teams would have been sitting there for quite a while and then have to move. I can specifically remember all of 340 and 1880 among the dozens of teams sitting in front of us that were forced to loose their seats. When the awards ceremony started the whole section was empty and then it was basically just a free for all again. It looked kind of stupid when Woodie started the ceremony and the whole section in front of him was empty. The whole section of the "good seats" then only partially filled throughout the ceremony and final rounds. I thought this was totally unfair to the teams that were in the seats who were told they had to leave for no real reason just so that other teams (who wound up being just anyone not just the Einstein teams) only partially filled the section. If FIRST would practice what they preach then this kind of ciaos wouldn't have happened. The seats should have been first come first served rather than first come first removed, second come second removed, third come third removed, fourth come oh well go ahead and sit because everything has started and we have this big hole we need to fill because it looks bad in the photos and cameras to have a bunch of empty seats in front of the awards platform. It sort of ruined the whole photo op for endless sea for multicolored team uniforms. Since the 3 of us were sitting on the very top row on the walking level we watched this whole debacle unfold over and over in front of us. I don't know who's idea it was to "try" to save that whole section but it didn't work out so well.

Re: Saving Seats
 

The problems caused by saving seats might be alleviated by assigning blocks of seats to teams by FIRST. This was discussed in a thread last year:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=37664

The "how" is a question that FIRST needs to consider. When teams register for the event, the number of participants/spectators should be included in the application. FIRST should establish some criteria or lottery process to determine "where" the blocks are assigned to teams. There should be some buffer space around the blocks to allow people interested in particular teams outside of the division in which their team is placed. Some additional space for scouts, general public, and others would be appreciated.

Re: Saving Seats
 

I'm not sure what this info is worth, but team 294 was forcibly removed (security guard) from a section where seats were "saved". I was not involved in the situation, but it doesn't sound like it was good on either side.

Re: Saving Seats
 

I found out it was one of our students who had done this. They were ripped by myself and other mentors, and then not allowed to do alliance selections. On behalf of The Cheesy Poofs I'd like to apologize to team 294 for this unfortunate experience. If anyone on our team does anything like this again please let EJ, Cory, or me know so that we can deal with this. This isn't something we'd like our team to be known for.

Re: Saving Seats
 

I personally had no direct problem with saving seats this year (mainly because I was in pits), but as a scout last year, this problem popped up more than once. It really not fair when teams claim giant area and usually fail to even fill the whole thing out but still freak out when some one takes a seat. I believe that there are some times when seat saving is OK, such as when an entire team goes to lunch for a short period with the plans to return to the seats after. If a team insists on saving seats still, just do the GP thing and inform the person that they are OK for now, but when the previous occupants return, to please give the seats up, not telling them to leave right away.

Re: Saving Seats
 

We were pretty upset with this situation. My team had seats in said sections along time before the ceremony with some saved for the drive team and others who crated up the robot. However, they were forcibly removed and we had no where to really sit. Eventually we ended up on the 2nd floor and wanted to go to the 3rd, but we were not allowed. We eventually found a FIRST official who directed us back to said sections and said they were open. But, the security refused to allow us to sit there...eventually we got the FIRST official, but they had finally let us sit there. I thought it was dumb how so many teams could barely see becuase they were on the outskirts, but these said sections were less than 1/3 full. FIRST definitely needs a better system such as a ticket system for seats when you register (like a regular sports event) or a lottery system where they designate rows/blocks for teams to sit.

Re: Saving Seats
 

Nationals are different from regionals, and I see your point on saving X# of seats for a team. Some teams don't know how many people are going to the event. But they usually have a better idea of how many are going to nationals than a regional. Like I said earlier, we were expecting 70-80 people for West Michigan, but thats our "Home" regional and families want to go.

Anyhoo, this is one subject, like many, that can be beaten to death until next year, without a whole lot of change to be seen.

Re: Saving Seats
 

Bigger Pet Peeve-

Teams that stand up "down in front" completely blocking the field for all others to see. There were a few in Atl. who stood through their entire matches every time and made it impossible to see a thing from behind them for rows and rows. And that then required everybody behind to stand up too.

WC

Re: Saving Seats
 

FIRST is on the move. Growth and expansion are happening.
Dean's homework will impact next year and certainly 2008 in a big way.
Saving seats/seating/clogged hallways/pit accessibility for inspectors, judges - all of this plus more will need continued monitoring and changes. It can only improve with stepped up planning and coordination during off season. The FIRST teams by and large try to emulate GP whenever possible - having a safe plan for seating and hallway crowds, traffic flow, etc., in place enables the teams to continue to strive towards Gracious Professionalism, moving away from quarreling over lack of space.

.02

Re: Saving Seats
 

In Atlanta a team blocked off around 7 rows of seats and put caution do not cross tape on the sides. This I didn't like but unfortunately there is nothing we can do about that.

Re: Saving Seats
 

my team does save seats, but most of the time they are being used. also, we will let people use them if they need them; i have never seen any of my team yell or remove someone from a seat. the removal of teams before the ceremony was ridiculous. a few members from MOE and my team went over to get good seats in front of the podium and were kicked out for something about FLL, but that section was EMPTY for the longest time. and the standing up during matches, sometimes when our robot was firing in the goal like crazy we'd stand up and cheer, but usually sat down quickly..or at least tried. but other teams do need to realize that that team's robot is on the field and the only real way that their driver, operator, and human player can see that we're cheering them on and not just leaving them out to dry is by standing and cheering. just a thought..it's not perfect and i don't think standing up the whole time is right, but for a little bit should be fine. (we've gotten yelled at about standing up during a match AND about not standing up during a match to show support.)

Re: Saving Seats
 

I arrived at the location in question right after the confrontation occured, to watch my teams robot perform in its next match.

The fact is that there were many open seats available in front of Curie field when this particular incident occured, all of them providing a good close viewing position suitable for scouts. There were several rows of seats taped off with no one in them (an activity that I am not fond of), and anyone could have sat down in these seats without confrontation. There were also plenty of open seats.

Regardless of the rules, people save seats. People who would prefer to follow the rules can find themselves forced to save seats because everyone else does, producing a catch 22. It is not allowed in the rules, but it will happen anyway. This is human nature. When you run into that, instead of causing a confrontation, pick an open seat, sit down, and watch the match. It is usually not that difficult to find an open seat.

I run into "saved seats" quite often when I make the quick trip out from my support position in the pits to watch my team's robot perform in a match. When I do, I calmly explain that I will be there only for the duration of my team's match and there is rarely any conflict or concern. There is no profit margin in reading people the riot act with regard to the rules. If there is a conflict in spite of my being as accomodating as possible, I move to another seat. I almost never have to do that, and there is no sense in complaining on the rare instances when I do.

If you make an effort to avoid conflict, you are not likely to get one. If, on the other hand, you make an effort to cause a confrontation when interacting with others, you are likely to get what you seek. This is an important lesson to teach teenage students, especially those who are prone to causing confrontations. It does not matter whether you are right, or wrong, with respect to the rules. Causing a confrontation is not GP and we should learn to avoid this behavior, regardless of the situation. This is one of the things that we are supposed to be learning through our participation in FIRST.


Eugene

Re: Saving Seats
 

This year at the Arizona Regional we decided to avoid the problem. We sat as a group behind the blue driver station on the side of the arena. There was plenty of room to spread out and the view was not all that bad. When we competed, we went to the cheering section with the rest of the "fun bunch".

It was amusing at times to watch the stands in front of the field. Large blocks of seats were unused much of the time. Teams were standing and blocking the view of the match. We met several first time visitors who could not find a seat elsewhere and had a great time talking about FIRST and FIRST Lego League.

Saving seats is not right but after eight years of fighting, we gave up and had a great time.

Ken

Re: Saving Seats
 

Here's my beef. I didnt attend Atlanta, however I did attend BAE. I was formally without a team, yet I still am sort of attached to my former team and alma-matter. So I get there, and sit with the team who I've been on for the past 2 years. I got kicked out by a new parent who didn't know who I was, but it was very rude and the way she said it was inappropriate. I also think people who commute from the pits to the stands frequently should not be represented in the stands by someone's jacket or backpack. During lunch I approached a security gaurd and politely explained my issue with them, and when the team came back from lunch the gaurd had a nice converstaion with that parent.
We used to save seats when I was on 151 back in my youth, and we would save our seats per day, and when the next day came those seats were fair game. So we never argued or whatnot we were polite in our savings (We also had these neat seat back covers we used to use) But I agree with what the majority of you are saying, we should not save seats now that first is so big. I feel bad for the public who come to watch and get treated like garbage.

Re: Saving Seats
 

In previous years I seem to recall FIRST reserving a block of seats near the awards platform for team representatives designated to accept the awards on behalf of their team. I was working on the field for the full run of the competition this year, so I'm not sure if teams were told to send representatives to that section this year or not, but that may be the reason.

A number of years ago (Disney era), when an award was won the entire team would go up to shake hands with Dean, Woodie, etc. much like regionals work now. Given the mamoth size of the Championship event, it took an insane amount of time for team members to filter down to the stage from wherever they were sitting in the crowd (especially teams sitting in the back). As a result, a few years ago FIRST changed the awards structure, so two student representatives from each team would sit towards the front for easy access should their team win an award. With over 300 teams present, with 2 award representatives, that's over 600 seats to be reserved. In the interest of saving time given how long the awards ceremony already is, I have to say it's not a bad idea.

Re: Saving Seats (sit in them or lose them...no tape)
 

Here's a couple of suggestions for 2007 (as this "seat-saving ritual" seems to be more of an issue at the championships than at regionals).

1) Each team should mandate that 100% of their team IMMEDIATELY go to the stands and NOT "hover" around the pits at the beginning of each day. I know that the action is in the pit area, but it really doesn't help to have teammates hanging around. Doing that will create a good team spirit in the stands right away. Plus, the judges/safety people can't see your pit if 20+ of your own team members are haning around.

2) Each team should reserve their own "front row" for outside guests and actively be on the watch for families, young children and invite them to come down front and see the action. Definately the gracious thing to do! maybe even make-up signs "guests welcome" or "room available"...

3) Runners with match scouting forms traversing to the pits should have aisle seats and should NOT block/stand in the aisles. Also, in the USA, we drive on the right-hand side of the road, so people in aisles should abide by that traffic flow (maybe even tape some "up" and "down" arrows in the aisles.......my pet peeve was constantly zig-zagging left-right up the aisles while carrying the video camera, etc because people were coming down the "wrong" side of the road....Just a personal thing......

4) And....speaking of tape. I totally agree that teams should NOT ever be "taping-off" seats unless they're actively sitting in those seats. Use them or lose them or let others "borrow" your seats.

Yes, it's only gonna get more crowded in future years and we don't want FIRST to start to mandate even more rules. We can self-police this by coming up with good ideas besides taping-off sections. It's perfectly OK for FIRST themselves to cordon-off seats during the ceremonies for guests, award recipients, etc.

Hey, even better, how about having a "dignitary" section where guests for the currently-playing match can come and video/photo their match and then rotate-out with the next team? (not including the on-floor media rep.) There are lots of creative, positive ideas we can come up with.... :)

Re: Saving Seats
 

It would go a long way to open up the second level of the stadium for the entire event. One taim had a pair of binoculars on a tripod which made for excellent scouting from up high.

Re: Saving Seats
 

I understand the no saving seats rule on a per-day basis. For example, just because you sat in a seat on thursday does not mean it should still be yours on saturday. However, I do feel that this rule can be taken too far. Some team members will have to be moving back and forth. Even if my entire team shows up first thing in the morning, they will still not be able to park it there all day. If all my pit scouts come, put their stuff down, and go out scouting, am I to be considered "saving seats" if I am holding their spots for them? What if we have older people on our team who can't arrive early in the morning? Yes, only grab the amount of seats that you need. Yes, don't tape up seats and leave them there. However, if there were no saving seats it would be impossible for teams to ever sit together. I just don't think that it's logistically possible to have no saving seats. People will have to get up to do things and come back. Should we make the drive team sit far away from the rest of the team because they had to go down to the pit in the morning and we couldn't save a seat for them? So I agree that new rules should be made, but this could be taken to far.

Re: Saving Seats
 

Yep..we were running a huge scouting setup that depended on data from every match. Teams kept standing up in the middle of the stands and blocking the view for everyone behind them. This led us to miss data from a number of matches, thereby throwing our information off by a bit. Not cool in my opinion. :o

Re: Saving Seats
 

But...you see...there is the thing....called the Team Spirit Award...and I've never seen a team win the award when they sit down as their team is out on the field. My $0.02 about that.

Re: Saving Seats
 

Essentially you are telling us all to ignore the rules of saving seats. Despite the fact that we do not ignore rules about safety glasses, tape, and all sorts of robot and non-robot related rules. I think that many people who are reading this thread and many people in general would sternly object to this.

The fact of the matter is, if there were so many close and good viewing positions as you said, why could some of your team not shift to accommodate the scouts? There were no more than 6 individuals, meaning less than one half of a front row. Additionally, the team was just there for the match, but for the day. The argument that "we got there first" does not hold water in my opinion. Unless the team that is holding those seats has a full row in attendance, there is no right for them to deny others an ideal seat. There was simply no reason for you to not allow the scouts to sit. At the same time, if I recall correctly, there were not enough members of your team to make up the full row.

No one seeks a confrontation. If that were the case, I am quite sure FIRST would be no where near the level it is today. However, why do you suggest that there is something wrong with asking individuals to allow people to sit where there are no other individuals? The fundamental fact is yes, you may have gotten there first, but if there are empty seats, it is the right of other individuals to sit there. Support for your team is important and that can be accomplished by being as vocal as possible from anywhere in the arena =).

One last thing, as a teenage student, recently graduated, I sense a distinct level of disdain for members of my age group. We may be young, but we have all read the rules in this case and know the official stance. We are not boorish nor immature. One of the things that we are also taught in FIRST is to strive to be the best that we can be, which includes questioning when rules are not followed or not enforced.

Re: Saving Seats
 

You guys are one of the teams that almost didn't get scouted. If you must stand through your entire match, when scouts behind you need to see the field (and when bystanders, people just dropping by, etc. would prefer to see it), then please be as far back as you can get. Otherwise, you may be subjected to comments about "Lousy window!" from above and behind you. Team introductions and scores announced, stand all you please. Matches, sit down and cheer from a sitting position.

Re: Saving Seats
 

I can ignore your continued effort to produce conflict, but a personal attack has no place in this discussion. Do you really think that I have disdain for members of your age group, given that I mentor a FIRST team without vested personal interest? You have clearly missed the point of my post...

Re: Saving Seats
 

Yep. When people do that it does get annoying but you can understand. Like we sat right behind moe, and when our match was vs them in quarter finals my team had to jump up and down to see past them because it was an intesely ridiculus match, (AWESOME to watch), but that didnt bother me. :) Actually I cheered for them since i made friends with them. What did bother me more was the fact that During the awards/finals when they opened the upper deck, I almost got talked to for removing a red cloth off of a row of empty seats and putting it on another so a frined can sit..

At that I would like to question, Do you really need to stand for EVERY award given? And for EVERYTHING said? Lol. I had someone infront of me who stood more of the Awards/Finals than they probiably sat the WHOLE tournament.

Pavan

Re: Saving Seats
 

I think this is the best point made so far.

Re: Saving Seats
 

Well, standing up and blocking the view of others really isn't the GP thing to do. Even if it means possibly not getting the "Team Spirit Award", it is still a whole lot better to let the teams behind you scout than to jump up and prevent them from seeing the other teams. Hey, it could very well mean the difference between winning the Championships or losing them. You never really know until it happens.

Gracious Proffesionalism: Doing the right thing, even if it isn't advantagous to you.

Re: Saving Seats
 

I could have been oblivious, that is a possibility - but I didn't see any problems in our sections of Gali-LEO - the teams stood between matches, going nuts for their teams but they sat during the matches for the most part. We had scouts that were working really hard and had to look around some people sometimes but over all I thought the teams were awesome. Let's see how to put it:
They rocked out - graciously -

Re: Saving Seats
 

Need to? No.

But I am compelled to by my genuine enthusiasm and appreciation of the team receiving the award, and by my desire to let them know that I celebrate their accomplishments.

(By the way, I don't stand for the award. I stand and applaud and cheer for the recipients.)

Re: Saving Seats
 

Our team spirit is all we have. Our robot is awful this year and is usualy isn't that good any other year. We won Buckeye this year all case we were matched with 272 and 494. We went 1-6-0 at Atlanta. What would you do if you were loseing? I'd get myself up, shout as lond as I could and let people know that this is the robot that my team has built and we are proud of it. I wouldn't expect anyone to scout us, we are rarely noticed anyway. All we have been known for is cheering. So thats what me and my team are going to do. We are going to get up for our robot. And if we are in your way, thats great. You can read the back of our shirts and see who we are. Thats my team's thoughts on the subject.

Other than that, I think that if everyone is really nuts about it, how about asking FIRST if they can tape off the front row of seats what way scouts can have a seat, and ask them to enforce it. If it's really that much of a problem, tell FIRST you want them to inforce it. No sence just ranting on it here. If you want something done about it, than do something about it.

Re: Saving Seats
 

I was never the intent of Jeff or the other 188/1114 mentors & students to cause a conflict. Here's exactly what happened. Some 1114/188 scouts went to the front row of the Curie stands to grab seats for scouting. Obviously they wanted the seats with best field of view. These teams were being saved by another team. Since the rules specifically disallow the saving of seats, they sat down in them. Initially, nothing was said. Then 3 additional 1114 members came to sit down with their teammates. Then the mentors form the seat saving team came and began yelling at the 1114 members. The 1114 members calmly explained that the saving of seats was illegal. The team in question said "it doesn't matter, everyone else does it." They then proceed to lambaste these mentors and students in rather rude fashion.

You can claim that they were looking for conflict, but these individuals were just standing up (or sitting :)) for their rights. Too often teams are allowed to save seats because no one lets them know it's wrong. Some teams are even shocked to discover that it's not permitted, and graciously free up the seats once they see the rule.

Yes, we should not seek conflict, but at the same time we cannot turn a blind eye upon those who break the rules.

As for Jeffrey's comment about the disdain for his age group, there were comments directed at the 1114/188 college mentors during this fracas which illustrated this disdain. I don't believe Jeff's comment was directed at you.

Re: Saving Seats
 

From Karthik's description of the situation the answer is quite simple. The other team is in the wrong.

I get that you want to sit together, that's great, it boosts teamwork. I have no problem with you leaving your seat for 5-10 minutes to use the restroom or grab a soda, nor do I think anyone else does.

It is clear, however, that the saving of seats is not permitted. "Everyone else does it" just doesn't cut it. I'm sorry, if every other team brought in a bandsaw and put it in their pits, would you do it too? No because that's a robot rule, it must be strictly followed, the judges might see you. Hmmm, interesting point. Isn't GP what you do when you're on and off the field? Whether you're being watched or not? If someone could please explain to me what horrid harm these team members of 188 and 1114 were doing to this poor team that was making sure that no one sat in these empty seats I would very much appreciate it.

If there were enough seats for them to put their tushes down without having to have a member of the other team stand up and move, then get over it. The other team was in the wrong and had a hissy fit for being called on it. Boo-hoo, grow up, get over it.

Re: Saving Seats
 

Maybe if people wrote letters to FIRST that asked them to address the issue, they would allow up to like 4-5 team members on the 2nd level during that day for scouting purposes. Or they could desginate so many rows down in front for scouts and have everyone else (teams) stand behind them. It's just not a very FIRST like thing to sit in the stands and not make any noise during your match. It's obviously not a very good match if it's not exciting enough to get everyone on their feet and making noise to support you.

Re: Saving Seats
 

As do I Sir, But I believe that if you are sitting in front row (which this person was), and you stand for everything like sitting on the chair will give you the Flu, it is rude, expecially to the people behind you.

And as for me, I applauded and got some mentors on me for cheering for some award winners loudly...(Just didnt stand cause we were in the 3rd 4th row)

Pavan

Re: Saving Seats
 

I agree. If you want something done about it, do something about it!

Re: Saving Seats
 

See I would definitely be in favor of having a section for scouting at the front. When I am trying to scout a team but I can't see them because the people in front of me are standing, I get annoyed. However, when we were able to stand during our matches at Chesapeake, we were a lot more happy and spirited than later in the day when we (the entire regional, not just 175)were asked to please refrain from standing. We listened to this because we had been asked to. Some teams did not. In Atlanta, because it was so hard to see over standing teams, we decided to only stand when our number was called. As a result (could be causation or correlation) we were less spirited. However, it makes everything a lot less fun. I think that if a teams scouts could sit in the front and the teams could stand and cheer in back that might help. The only thing that could potentially be a bother in this plan is that scouts would be isolated from the team. Also, teams like mine would have almost no one in the team section due to lack of students. Since we can't save seats, would the scouts have seats when they returned to the team section of the stands to watch matches? Yes, it is a logistical nightmare. I understand the desire of any strong scouting program to get data on each match, but I also understand the desire of a spirited team to stand and cheer, even for a losing robot. To say that a team won't get scouted because they have spirit seems sort of like a punishment for a problem they did not create.

As far as awards go; there is no good reason for people to not stand for every award. What is it you are trying to see while people are applauding for the award winner? More importantly, why aren't you standing too? These people have a great accomplishment. They definitely deserve the recognition of the entire FIRST Community for that. A standing ovation is a long excepted tradition for recognition of something great. A woman once asked me to sit down during the curtain call for a truly wonderful show. I asked her to please stand up and give the cast the ovation they deserved. There is no reason not to stand during applause, there isn't anything else to see until after the applause dies down.

Re: Saving Seats
 

The event I heard about was obviously a different one, as it involved 6 students who attempted to save "already saved" seats with their backbacks. It was quite a fuss. I am sure that members of a team that is opposed to saving seats would not have done that. I will spare the thread the unimportant details, and leave out the colorful adjectives that only serve to demonstrate my lack of objectivity.

The scenario mentioned below, however, with three arrivals and no response followed by more arrivals eliciting a response; reminds me of a conflict in the middle east that continues to this day. I am sure that everyone there is just standing up for their rights. After all, if you don't stand up for your rights people will just run over you, won't they?

These actions, by definition, are a confrontation. You really can't claim that you are not seeking a conflict when you stand up (or sit down) for your rights.

With regard to Jeff's comments in response to my post, he quoted my post and replied to it directly. An insult is in the eye of the beholder; as is the notion of yelling, the notion of rudeness, the notion of calmness and the notion of politeness. These are all perceptions, and are all important, but it is how other people percieve you that really matters.

An earlier poster indicated that a thread addressing seat saving would not be very fruitful, and I think that poster was right. I will drop this thread from my list.

Eugene

Re: Saving Seats
 

This is a becoming a situation that FIRST must address. A few years ago, some members of Team 980 had a similar conflict with a team in the stands over saved seats. Our team wasn't very large, yet ended up scattered in the stands because we didn't save a block of seats for our members that were in the pits and on the drive team.

I've suggested in earlier posts and threads that FIRST assign block seating to teams prior to the event based on information provided at time of registration (i.e. number of team members and supporters anticipated at the event). The location of the seats for the teams can be done a number of ways, ranging from random draw, to team seniority, to number of regional awards won. This may be difficult to accomplish logistically, but if this sort of behavior continues and escalates, someone is likely to cross the line and real problems will arise.

Rather than bicker, can we try to offer a reasonable solution to FIRST?

Re: Saving Seats
 

If my memory serves me correctly, wasn't this type of pre-assigned seating used at the 2004 BAE regional? I was there with a small group, doing some advanced scouting, perhaps someone who attended with a team could fill us in on the details and let us know how this method faired.

Re: Saving Seats
 

We were there, and seating was definitely not assigned to the team as a whole in 2004, 2005 or 2006. Always at BAE however, the best seats (the ones looking across the field), are reserved for teams whose robot is on the playing field (never been to another event, so I don't know if that's normal or not).

Re: Saving Seats
 

We at least have a policy of scouting every single team, every single match. I'm pretty sure other teams have a similar policy. By not sitting DURING the match, you could have shot yourselves in both feet. Take an example from 1108 and 75. They stood during the team announcements, and sat as soon as the countdown started. And do you really want people knowing who you are by having you stand up the whole match and block their view of the field? You can ruin things for everybody behind you by standing (you weren't even cheering while standing, which I find almost completely inexplicable, if you want a Team Spirit award, and which could excuse your standing ALL MATCH).
There is a thread (I believe it is called "Standing, cheering, and required team actions") on this subject, started last year. Read it. Most people on CD seem to agree with me: sit down during the matches, stand any other time you please, make as much noise as you want any time.

Re: Saving Seats
 

Saving seats does make it hard for the fans and the teams of FIRST enjoy watching the game. I know my team came up to the stands and only took one row and 95% of the time people were sitting in the seats (scouting). It makes it really hard to look through someone. I know that most teams are large teams but they should realize that the smaller teams dont think its fair when 80 people jump up and leave and all come back and people are sitting in the seats the left and expect them to get up. The should learn the following statement: <B> MOVE YOUR FEET LOSE YOUR SEAT</B>

Re: Saving Seats
 

I agree totally with you.
I'm on Team 11. Yes we stand, yes we stand the entire match, and I think that 25 is talking about us in particular.
For starters, we don't just stand to win an award. We don't win team spirit awards. We stand to support our drivers and our robot. I can say from personal experience that the greater the enthusiasm in the stands, the better the drivers feel and perform.
At the same time, we have a scout team. We pride ourselves on our scouts, and they are some of the best in FIRST. When the team in front of them stands, they stand too. They get their data, the team in front gets to show support for their team. Everyone's happy. As a scout myself, I think it's nice to be able to stand every once in a while.

As for standing for awards, this is exactly the point. This team worked hard to win the award. Maybe our standing will encourage you to do the same as a show of respect for their effort.

As for a special "scout section," it would be great if they can make it work...

Re: Saving Seats
 

As a driver, I totally agree. You become more motivated and confident with the more people you hear cheering on you and your partners during a match. It makes the experience even more thrilling to be a apart of.

However, let's not let this become a personal attack against any teams/students/members of CD/etc. If you had a problem with any team, you should have spoken with them when it happened. If you feel it was that big of a situation, I'd suggest PMing those involved or emailing them with your concern.

Re: Saving Seats
 

I hate to interject here, but the seats that you refer to in front of the Einstein Field and the award ceremony were reserved for all of the judges, officials, and volunteers who made Nationals run. So I think it is fair for FIRST to section off some of the best seats in the house for those who help the event run. This in my opinion is a very GP move by FIRST.
-Cory

Re: Saving Seats
 

I wish you knew my team.

Back on topic shall we? Saveing seats? Ok. I agree that saveing seats isn't the best thing to do. It's wrong but people still do it. There are sometimes problems and there are sometimes not. I will repeat what others have said: If you want it to be inforced, tell FIRST. If no one tells FIRST than there isn't a problem, right? If you want to see a change, everyone on this thread construct a letter and email it to FIRST, to Dean, to whoever needs to see it. Tell them how you feel about it, and tell them you want it enforced. Here I'll start it for you!

FIRST/Important person:

Members of Team 47's Forum comminity have expressed their opinion about enforceing the "no saveing seats" rule. It has been ignored my some teams and has been a problem in some occations. We ask that you consider enforceing the rule, or to make us all aware of the reason why the rule can not be enforced.


You all can fill in the rest. I'm not going to send it because I have never seen a problem with it. If you want to make a change, be the change.

Re: Saving Seats
 

Cory, I totally agree that it would be GREAT if FIRST reserved those seats for the judges, volunteers, and other officials, however, if that was the plan it was just poorly executed. We were sitting there from about 11:30 until after everything was over and I never heard any announcement to that effect. All they would have to do is rope the whole section off with yellow tape at lunch and put up a few signs stating "This section is reserved for VIPs" and FIRST could have avoided a lot of ciaos. There would have been no need to call in the Police. The only people sitting in that section when the awards ceremony started were the judges sitting in the first few rows. They were obviously the only ones clued into the reserved seating section.

Re: Saving Seats
 

In the 9 years I've been with FIRST, seats have always been on a first come, first serve basis. At BAE, at the UTC regional, at the NJ regional, at the Chesapeake regional, and at the championships. You may be in a section one day, but chances are, you won't be there the next day if you don't get to them early enough. There's always been debates about "You stole our seats, we were here yesterday." Seats are seats, we're all watching the same thing.

Re: Saving Seats
 

First off, please let me sincerely apologize to Mr. Brooks. It was by no means my intent to antagonize or to create a conflict, just as it was in the original situation addressed. I have a deep appreciation for all mentors, as witnessed many times over by my testaments to those mentors on my team (including two Regional WFA's) and for all those who dedicate their time to mentoring and helping students. I never meant for the comment to be taken personally. It was as Karthik said directed in large part out of frustration to certain individuals who judge actions and immediately attach a stigma to them because of the fact of my age or my teammates ages.

You are quite correct in assuming that perception is what comes out first, and just as you said, perception is very important, but I will not change my character to suit how other people perceive me. I have always done my best to come off as a responsible and mature individual, only heightened by my involvement in FIRST. However, if certain individuals choose to place me as another branded teenage hooligan, I will not step down and accept what they say as rule or absolute fact. I think it would all be better if everyone decided to treat individuals with equal respect if they are meeting them for the first time. I do not treat a student I meet for the first time any different than I would imagine that I would treat Dean Kamen. I may have more admiration for one over another, but I do not let what I perceive to be their background may or may not be influence me.


With that being said, I have steered this thread away from its original intent. Apologies all around, I wanted to make my position known. Best of luck to you and your team in the future.

Re: Saving Seats
 

I believe that it would be more of a sign of mutual respect for all teams to follow the rule that says they cannot save seats. If there's no one in the seat, it should be open to anyone.

Re: Saving Seats
 

I am not sure if this idea has been tried before....well here goes.

What if FIRST were to put into the manual a statement about being graciously professional and not saving seats. Something along the line, "Thank you for being graciously professional and not saving seats. Please let everyone enjoy the event."

Teams could then copy the statement onto index cards/business cards which they could use to avoid confrontations at competitions. If a problem arises, show the card rather than anger.

Ken

Re: Saving Seats
 

I like the Idea :) and I think it WILL Work. :) and most importantly it will not lead to any conflicts and for most teams they strive for gracious professionalism and have a good rep and dont want a simple stupid seat to ruin all of that, that that team has been banking every year.

Pavan