Live vs. Dead axles
 

Which do you prefer on your robots?

Re: Live vs. Dead axles
 

604 has used dead axles simply because we like to quickly switch out our wheels during competition, so we press the bearings into our wheels and screw on our #35 sprockets. This allows us to slide the wheels onto the dead axle, tension the chain up, and we're good to go.


What came first: the student or the mentor?

Re: Live vs. Dead axles
 

Dead axles. It's a bit easier to do (I think) because you can put one piece on per wheel instead of four (sprocket, wheel, and two keys).

Re: Live vs. Dead axles
 

You can do it in two ;)

Re: Live vs. Dead axles
 

Having seen both in action (Ockham went from dead to live when we switched the tires out), I really prefer dead. Fewer moving parts, less rotating mass.

Re: Live vs. Dead axles
 

Dead, they are simpler... this year we just used 3/4 or 1/2 bolts with locknuts for axles... it worked great ;)

Re: Live vs. Dead axles
 

Live, live, live. Dead is not simpler when chains are involved. 217 has used both. In 2000, 2001, and 2004 we used dead. In 2002, 2003, 2005, and 2006 we used live. After 2002 or 2003 I would have said dead, because we poorly implemented the live axles. In 2005, we saw the light and live is the way to go for us. The main advantage: you do not have to touch the chain to change wheels because the sprocket is not attached to the wheel.

We use hex shaft (3/4" this year, but maybe smaller next year) with a hex hole in the wheel and sprockets. Wheels are off in no time flat and the chain doesn't get touched.

Paul

Re: Live vs. Dead axles
 

I prefer a design that uses live axles on the drivetrain. They are more robust, simpler to maintain, and can be an overall lighter design.

However, I've never actually built a live axle drive system, simple because we've never used a wheel/hub combo that can use a live axle. The kit skyways, IFI, and A-M wheels all require a dead axle. Finding a keyed wheel hub, or a wheel with a hex shaped hole (as Paul uses) is difficult. For those teams that can't machine their own wheels, it's almost impossible to find hex-keyed wheels.

I've always marveled at the simplicity of the "West Coast Drive" used by 254, 968, 22, 980, etc... the list goes on. While that's a cantilevered live axle system, you can add an outboard bearing with a little more framework.

For higher torque applications, such as arm joints, I prefer a dead axle. Transmitting all the torque through a keyway can become a weak point. By mounting your gear directly to the arm or pivot, you transfer the torque through the bolt pattern, which can usually support much higher loads than the key (or double key...) Assembly is obviously a bit more challenging, but I'd rather build it once at the school, than to constantly repair it at a competition.

Good thread! I hope a bunch of teams start to post their live axle designs, so that us less fortunate ones can learn how to design and build our own.

BEN

Re: Live vs. Dead axles
 

As Ben and Paul stated, I prefer live axle for a drive train system. While installation and initial design of a dead axle system using common off the shelf FIRST parts (AM, IFI, Skyway) may be easier, incorporating a live axle system will prove much easier to swap out parts in competition (a lesson we DEFINITELY learned on Einstein this year.)

I must also comment on the West Coast drive train. I always knew it was nice, but watching 968 swap wheels in less than a minute (nothing was broken, mind you... they just wanted new tread) convinced me this is by far the best design FIRST has ever seen.

You may also consider a combination of these two systems, such as team 25's drive train. While their wheels sit on dead axles, there is no chain to play with. A big spur gear is attached directly to the wheel hub, and a line of gears transmit power to all 6 wheels. They can swap off wheels and not have to worry about configuring live axles in the design.

Re: Live vs. Dead axles
 

Mmm... both.

I like live shafts, because it's easier to get things that don't fit together to go together. Drill a hole, cut a keyway, and you're done. Easy to swap parts.

However, we go with dead shaft most of the time. Why? Because we design for low-accuracy and low-repeatablity. If our frame members get out of alignment, a life shaft with bearings has proven to be more difficult to dead with. Same if the shaft bends. With dead, the frame can warp, the shaft can bend, but as long as the chain (or timing pulley) can still compensate - you are still driving. Somewhat.

We kind of look at each application to pick a live or dead shaft. How easy is it to put together, how much abuse will it take, how well can we make it.

Re: Live vs. Dead axles
 

Dead axle's have always been easy as long as you have good wheels and sprockets. they work Beautifully. swampthing in 2005 had billet aluminum wheels with monster bearings and water cut sprockets. it was very ,fast reliable, never broke. and it is still running today. this year we went with lighter wheels and had nothing but problems. putting torque through 6 wheels using sprockets that are cantilevered off the wheel tend to want to tear themselves apart so they have to be pretty strong.

Re: Live vs. Dead axles
 

Dead axles. Why would I transmit torque through something I don't have to?

Re: Live vs. Dead axles
 

We always use dead axles, but we use Brecoflex belts and pulleys. We are able to slide the dead axle out and drop the whole tread system out of the machine. Because we don't use any chain, (spur gear drive right to the wheel/pulley), we don't run into some of the problems that have been discussed above.

Re: Live vs. Dead axles
 

Live, for the reasons outlined by Paul above.

We've done live axles the last few years, and this year moved to a 7/16" hex on the wheel shafts, to engage both the wheel and sprocket. It makes changing the wheels a breeze. Pop off one snap-ring, and the wheel is off. No fussing with chain.

Re: Live vs. Dead axles
 

We have used both extensively on 6-wheel and 4-wheel arrangements. I like dead axles much more. The torque transmittal issues and simplicity issues I think are close to a wash. With the bearings in the wheels, the machine is much less susceptible to being incapacitated from battle damage. We had our sidewall knocked in about 2 inches in Hartford, but were fully functional. If the bearings had been in the bulkheads, the drive configuration would have been destroyed. Dead axles can be lighter but most importantly, they are far more robust.