I feel this needs to be said...(Grades & FIRST Dedication)
 

Hi Everyone,
Me on the podium again, try to stay awake :)

Lately I’ve been noticing a trend. People are bragging about dedicating so much time to FIRST that they’re failing classes, or being denied credit for absences. I don’t understand this. Why are you proud to be surrendering your education? It angers me because it gives off an image to parents and schools that FIRST is going to hurt your education. This is not the image we want. It also makes me wonder if FIRST is losing its integrity, because while FIRST’s mission statement may not always seem clear, it never was or will be to work against education. It also bothers me because I try very hard to balance FIRST and school work. Not just for my grades, but for the school boards of the teams I work with, and for my parents and friends. It bothers me that I’m working so hard to present it as something educational, when people are writing it off and presenting the exact opposite image. I don’t understand, finally, why you would want that?

Folks, honestly, FIRST is great, but your education is more important. That diploma, and the degree you can get from college is going to go a lot further when you need a job than being able to drive a robot, or shoot a Poof ball in to a goal. You can be the best CAD modeler on your team, but you’re not going to get a job on that. Getting a degree for it by taking CAD classes in college will get you that job.

Please, get your priorities straight. School, then FIRST. Not the other way around.

Thank you,
Matt

Re: I feel this needs to be said...
 

Matt,

As I perhaps am thought of as one of such "guilty parties" I would like to clear up this misunderstanding.

I don't think that people are trying to impress you in saying that they're failing classes etc. but rather to warn others to watch out for their mistakes. FIRST (at least in my mind) is really a family, and family always has each other's backs. When big brother or sister screws up, they make sure little brother or sister doesn't follow in their oops footsteps. And honestly, I think that's what is going on. We are trying to warn people that even we, (including DJ who many think of as "supermentor" or "god") couldn't handle some of this... We couldn't pull it off. I think that we're trying to give real life examples to try to make people think again.

I'm pretty sure that no one in this program would brag about poor scholastic performance. This is the "Superbowl of Smarts" afterall!

Re: I feel this needs to be said...
 

I'm sure that many FIRST members find their grades fall slightly during build periods. I would understand it. It's one thing to fall, it's another thing to flatten your grades completely by forgetting your school work. After FIRST each year, I was albe to blast a new vision inside of me and I do even better before FIRST. It's kinda bad that we talk like we are bragging our slight grade mishaps, but it makes people more aware.

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Yea, this is definitely a major misconception about FIRST. One of the happiest moments for our mentors (teachers) this year was when they found out that every single person's average on the Robotics team during the second term (which coincides with the season) went up. I think that this was a product of the students having to be much more organized and manage their time better during the season. Hey, FIRST even helped my marks :p.

Re: I feel this needs to be said...
 

I totally agree with this statement. I, along with the teachers on my team, make that point at least 1 or twice at parent meetings in the beginning of the year. We usually have at least 1 slow week as our school has finals for single semester classes during the build season.

I've told my kids that Classes need to come first and before we go on trips the kids have to get academic releases from thier teachers. I've also told them that if they have problems, esp in Math and Science classes, that the mentors will help them out if they ask.

Besides, every class provides a basis of knowledge for FIRST activities. Name any class and I bet in 80-90% of the cases I can tie the skills there to something that can/should/is done during a FIRST season.

Of course, this all goes only for the students... Mentors are expected to know better... If they decide to let school (or work) lapse, they should understand the consequences as they are adults.

School first, FIRST second...

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Our team has a grade requirement policy. Simply put... you MUST maintain a C or higher in every class or you are on academic probation... no robotics until the grades are up. If you fail a class for a quarter or semester, you're off the team for that season. This is Sherrard's eligibility requirements and the team has adopted them. So I hope not to see any of team 648's members boasting about dropping grades due to FIRST dedication.

Re: I feel this needs to be said...
 

Our school has the same policy ^. Our main programmer was not able to attend Nationals for this reason and we found it very hard without him.

Re: I feel this needs to be said...
 

I agree with all of you who say school is before robots. My team stresses this and we make sure the students know that if they have to miss a meeting to do school work, they should do so. I actually find that I do better during the build season because I am forced to manage my time in a more efficient manner. My school also requires an academic release from teachers before students can miss school for a "field trip."

Re: I feel this needs to be said...
 

On 857, the grade requirement is a C average AND no F's. Everyone's grades are checked the week before we travel.

Re: I feel this needs to be said...
 

I am not so sure bragging is the right word to describe what we do when we talk about falling grades during season, its more like reminiscing. When the team and i talk about grades we laugh about the change in grades because it is a relatively small change and its understandable. there is a lot of brainpower being used during the build season so it is normal.

The problem is when the grade change is more than a few points that is when there needs to be a change in priorities.

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I would also have to agree with this, during this current season we had to keep students from attending the regionals. A few dislike the teachers from doing this but it is our team policy if they want to travel. Also the teachers on our team want the students to succeed after FIRST, especially with our team leader. Although it hurts to see some of my friends on the team put in around +100 hours into helping with the robot and not travel. But in the long run it is for their own good!

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166 says FIRST doesn't come first. School does.

I know... it's a nasty pun, but it gets the message through.

I'm guilty of having grades drop during build season, but I easily bring it back up afterwards. This year was horrible. My english teacher could not have picked a worse time to assign a Research Paper...

Re: I feel this needs to be said...
 

Your school work comes first, even if your in college. I think that most teams would have a policy that you need to be passing your classes in order to go. We have something like that, I'm not completely sure about the final answer on it. If your in college and mentoring, like me, your school work comes first. I did schedule my classes around the season, knowing when we worked late and when we didn't, but I did get my work done.

If anyones grades start to drop, because of the build season or anytime during the year, the team should help them bring their grades up. We will help any of our team members when they need it.

Anyhoo, my final thoughts are, that if you are failing a class or your grades are going down, then you need to do something about it. FIRST is not a class that the schools offer, its a extra event thats designed to give the students a look at other careers. To quote just about everybody, "School first, FIRST second."

Re: I feel this needs to be said...
 

team 103 also emphasizes the need for school to come first. there is a minimum gpa to join the team and the mentors (who are teachers at the school) try to make sure that all members make at least honor role every semester.

Re: I feel this needs to be said...
 

our team doesnt have a grade req. Thankfully. If we did we'd lose prolly half our team (yeah thats bad)....not me :)

Now, i dont see where we need a minimum gpa to join a team, thats not right, but having a min. gpa to go to competition is fine, all teams should have that....

Re: I feel this needs to be said...
 

Our team has no grade policy.
100% of our robot is built by students and parents.
100% of our past and present graduates have gone on to higher education.

Yes, grades are important. Are they the end all, be all to who you are as a person: NO!

I believe this topic raises a larger issue than what is currently at hand. Which is more important: The school or the student?

The goal of public education (I am not familiar with the inner workings of private institutions, so I cannot speak my opinions of them) is to provide each and every student with the skills and knowledge they need to live life to the fullest. Elementary education is rather straightforward, and provides students with the foundation they need to learn at a higher level. As schooling continues to the secondary level, the mission and outcome begins to become blurred. Ask any high school student "What is the point of school?" and you will receive a few different answers. Of these answers, most will hold the general idea of "To learn."

This is the misdirection that plagues a majority of high school and college students. Students spend a majority of their adolescent life in school with no real goal beside "to get into a good college". Yes, this is a good goal to have, but where is the significance in this? College is not for everyone, and students need to be given the opportunity to find themselves before dedicating a large amount of time and money to this cause. FIRST is a tool students can use to in self-discovery in a world where society's aspirations are based around the near-impossible-to-achieve dreams of professional sports and stardom (Ahh, but that is for another discussion!)

So, where does your performance in high school factor in? The answer to that question is lodged in your perspective on education, and the point of its existence. While some may not agree with me, (based on opinions, fact, or blatant ignorance) the point of school is not to learn, but to learn how to learn. Your grades in school have close to no real meaning. They are simply a gauge in the effort to distinguish those who are able to comprehend the material from those who may need more help. Achieving high marks may mean you are truly comprehend the subject, but more often than not it simply shows that student is capable of memorizing some pages out of a book. This is a huge flaw in the modern education system, and something I hope will be addressed.

In a normal classroom environment, teachers give lessons over a set period of time to be followed with an examination. The goal for students is to receive a perfect score on this examination. This might possibly be the worst thing possible for the students. It becomes easy and practically accepted to have no real knowledge of the 'guts' of the subject, but simply to just know 'the right answer'. This fact has created millions of teenage zombies in America, who simply sit through the day, take word-for-word notes, memorize them, and regurgitate their memories on the test. All the while, they have no real idea of what they are doing.

Is this happening everywhere? No, not really. The AP environment solves most of the problems I have stated. The AP examination looks for overall understanding of the subject matter, and does not ask for perfection. 75% right on the AP exam will score you the highest marks possible. I wholeheartedly agree with this method, and hope it expands to encompass all classroom environments, not just high level.

Back to the subject at hand: Which is more important: The school or the student?

Without either, both are lost. If one fails, so does the other. In any one school there may be thousands of students. For the sake of the school's survival, it is much easier to force the students to conform than the school to reform. The educational ideals of public education and of (what has become of) FIRST are based on different foundations, which makes hard for many students to survive in both worlds. While a student in a school is just a number, FIRST provides an experience which would otherwise be unattainable at this time in someone's life. Please don't get me wrong, teachers and school faculty care about their students. Of course they do, or they wouldn't be there. But, in the end the experience you walk away with from high school alone does not really enrich your life.

I'm sorry Matt, but I cannot support your plea. I repeat, grades ARE important, but students need to realize the importance of them in THEIR life. Sure, it would be nice if everyone had 4.0 GPA's and went to Ivy League schools... but everyone is not the same, and each person needs to realize his/her potential and what they need to do to achieve greatness.

So, please do whatever it takes to make the most out of your high school years. Don't waste the best years of your life with your face in a book. For the team leaders reading this, realize the experience your students are getting from this program WILL change their lives. Please, do not discount this fact and give every student the chance they deserve.

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My parents told me...

School is your job. Sports, job, everything is just for fun.

I have no idea what grades the students have. I tell the parents at the parent meeting that school should come first, but it's up to them and their students to watch grades, because I can't.

Several students have told me that their grades go up during FIRST.

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I would definitely agree with this. My first year of college, I was skipping classes all the time to drive home to Rochester for meetings with 201. It got to the point where I was skipping all my Friday classes, and some of my Thursday ones to get a jumpstart on the weekend. For one of my classes (which met three times a week), I was going maybe once a week. By the end of the semester, I'd skipped more Friday classes than I'd gone to, and I was lucky to scrape out a C in the class (the only C I've ever gotten). So, the moral of the story to all of you, especially current and prospective college FIRSTers: go to class! You may think it doesn't matter, since your professors don't take attendance every day, but it can hurt you. School is more important than FIRST, bar none.

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It is constantly said by every mentor on our team that school is first, and they mean it. We've had a policy of wanting people to be doing good, but the team somehow always seemed to "forget" come regional time and the policy was never upkept. This year we actually chose to adhere to it (the requirement was just that you could not be failing any classes this semester, past semesters and GPA don't matter) and start enforcing it. We almost had one of our 5 club officers and our driver not attend the regional due to this, and were prepared to not let them go to show we meant what we were saying.

Re: I feel this needs to be said...
 

That shifts after HS and full time college status.. or.. during full time college status if you aren't a golden child and have a free ride.

Hooray for taking advantage of FIRST or any other scholarships if you can!
(Not for me personally though just as an fyi..never got any scholarships.)

Your job (or at least a means of making income) = more important than classes ~99% of the time after age 18.

Just keep that in mind.

And, I agree all teams should have a strict policy about grades on the team if they care about the student's success, which I'm sure we all should/do currently.

Sure, some people will miss out on the competitions, but that's not what it's all about.

It's ultimately about succeeding in life, and not even necessarily in only engineering based fields.

Just succeeding in general.

How you succeed is up to you all as individuals.

Yes, it's corny.. but..your future really is in your hands when you are in HS. So, if missing one competition because you need to catch up with school work, and be prepared for life, is going to make you miserable, cause you can't be with your team and your friends, then you really need to check your priorities.

Sure, it's fun doing FIRST and there are a lot of benefits, but in the end, depending on how your school is setup for most of you, it is ONLY an extracurricular activity.

Have fun with it, enjoy some benefits, but keep your school work in check.

Take it from someone who has been there, and let activities take more importance over school..

Being in college on and off for 8 years and not having even an AS yet is not fun.

And that my friends is the harsh reality of life.

Re: I feel this needs to be said...
 

our team also has a education contract, you cant be failing/near failing any classes, otherwise you will be suspended/booted from the team. as well we have a study room in the hotel, and on the bus we have manditory 1hour study session. I missed 8 days of school due to robotics (2 regionals, 2 extra build days), and my math mark kinda got hit, but FIRST helped me realize how much i enjoy engineering, so that i NEED to do well in my classes if i want to reach my goals.

-kevin

Re: I feel this needs to be said...
 

Team 538 has the "C" or better in every class to be able to travel. We had a number that couldn't travel to Nationals (because they chose not to make up work they missed when we went to regionals). As a teacher sponsor I check each members grades at least once a week to stay on top of it. Some of the members were shocked when they couldn't travel but next year I bet they will make sure to do all make-up work.

Re: I feel this needs to be said...(Grades & FIRST Dedication)
 

604 has made sure that grades and schoolwork are first. If grades begin falling, then a person simply is not allowed to participate in robotics events, including regionals and Nationals. This has been a great motivator to raise grades.

Re: I feel this needs to be said...
 

I have to agree with Tom here. During the six week build season in FIRST I have learned more than I have all year in both my English and history classes combined. What I have learned from being in FIRST is going to be a lot more useful in my life than being able to spit out seemingly random dates of events and describe the personality of a fictional character in a novel (unless of course I end up on a show like Jeopardy and a question like that comes up). I would also like to mention that my grades actually went up during build season, and have since dropped down again.

Re: I feel this needs to be said...
 

Although grades don't always accurately display what a person actually takes away from schoo,l or FIRST for that matter, they are still important because they are one of the key elements to your future. Even if you learn tons of information about life and school subjects through FIRST, if your grades are low it will severly affect what colleges want to accept you and/or keep you. Our team also has a grades policy, and i think it's a good thing that we do. I know that i've made extra sure i stay on top of my game so that i can stay on our team, and i'm sure FIRST inspired other students on teams with these policies in a similar way.

Re: I feel this needs to be said...(Grades & FIRST Dedication)
 

Chief Delphi has always had standards when it comes to grades. As stated in our team handbook, all students are required to maintain and improve on a min. 2.5 GPA. It is also stated that any student that gets an "E" grade in any class is placed on plan a of assistance or dropped from the team.

Every day of "away" activity includes formal study time for all students to work on classroom assignments or generally read ahead on materials. Our mentors and teachers facilitate study groups whenever possible. We schedule after school tutorials and work with teaching staff to make sure all team members are working to their best ability.

Most, if not all of our students are on the National Honor Society, and rank very high in class ranking - not an accident - just very hard work and constant attention from the team coaches.

Ahhh... but yes, some students loose focus on what this is all about and suffer as a result.

Re: I feel this needs to be said...(Grades & FIRST Dedication)
 

As "head coach" and a teacher, I regularly send emails to all faculty with team members names and ask them to let me know if any student has attendance or grade "issues." I get several responses every time. This is taken into consideration when determining who travels and who doesn't. But, we've also taken into consideration the student, the class, and the effort being put forth. Sometimes a student is just "in over his/her head" in a class that's too difficult for their ability and as long as they are putting forth an effort they MAY still be able to travel. Some miss a regional or two (or nationals).

This year we started "study table" in the hotel, but not until Nationals and not until several members were behind in getting makeup work done. We ask soooo much of our school and faculty and staff that we were not about to tolerate students being behind in work because of FIRST. We need all the positive image PR we can get!

I thought the team would really "rebel" about the study tables, but it was amazing to see them all working on something and even helping each other out (teaching is the best way to master a concept). While not everyone "needed" the study time, everyone used it in some way and I think it was a good team bonding experience.

Next season we'll incorporate "study table time" into the build season at school. I'm thinking an hour of study table 2-3 days a week and then work sessions (some of our mentors can't be there when school gets out anyway).

I hope next year that no one on our school staff has the need to respond to my emails!

Re: I feel this needs to be said...(Grades & FIRST Dedication)
 

The photo in this link is a picture I took the eve of Kick Off this year. One of our alum's grandparents have graciously hosted the team in Houston for the past few years. This year almost every single team member pulled out their calculators and homework for Physics while they were waiting for us to figure out the Charades categories. When Charades was over they went back to Physics. There is an equal set of calculators and books on the floor next to the table. They did this on their own, the rest of us ate cookies.

http://www.lasarobotics.org/gallery/...Kick_Of f0049

Re: I feel this needs to be said...(Grades & FIRST Dedication)
 

Charades ... Physics ... Cookies ...Grandma's house..., sounds like paradise to me! :]

Re: I feel this needs to be said...(Grades & FIRST Dedication)
 

come join us -

after the first round of Charades, the team wanted a second round and one of the categories they wanted clues for was - are you ready - TOOLS - yupyupyup - I laughed way too hard.

Re: I feel this needs to be said...(Grades & FIRST Dedication)
 

Mos tof the CircuitRunners are in teh magnet program at our School. This is one of the toughest programs in the country and our magnet was ranked number 5 in the nation amongst all other schools in the country.
I am not going to lie, the grades of most build team people drop a little but we can usualyl pull them up. Most of us pack our 1st smester with tough classes and then try and get a sslack as posible 2nd semester. My 2nd sem. next year will probably be AP Chem, AP Gov, AP Econ., and AP Lit. My grades will suffer a bit, but I feel that I myself have the choice to make. I would rather have FIRST and maybe make 3 A's and 1 B than have straight A's and no FIRST in my senior year.

But the CircuitRunners have a strict policy that states that everyone must have all B's or better to build or travel. Our mentors spnd a long time looking up teh grades of the 100+ of us that there are.

Re: I feel this needs to be said...(Grades & FIRST Dedication)
 

This is a good idea, no wait, a great idea. We have kinda the samething here, the mentors don't get there until 4-5pm, and the high school ends aroud 2:30, I think. This time should be used for studying and not just waiting for the mentors or playing games.
I more or less paraphrased than quoted, but your right. You should never miss a class if your in college, and it doesn't matter if its a community college or a university. Unless your sick, car problems, or something more important comes up. I know theres already a thread on this subject, but It also needs to be here. This thread is mostly about the high schoolers, but does apply the college students.
I started this post before you posted, but 100 students! You must have a lot of fun with that many people. Anyhoo, I'm off the subject and need to go get ready for something. Thats my final 2 cents.

Re: I feel this needs to be said...(Grades & FIRST Dedication)
 

[quote=Jherbie53].......
I more or less paraphrased than quoted, but your right. You should never miss a class if your in college, and it doesn't matter if its a community college or a university. Unless your sick, car problems, or something more important comes up. I know theres already a thread on this subject, but It also needs to be here. This thread is mostly about the high schoolers, but does apply the college students..................QUOTE]

It is not only students who have to make sure their "work" is done.....we the adult mentors have responsibilities to our employers.....we have to make sure our work is done as well.....unlike students.....we do not get second chances. When your parents say that school is a job.....they are not wrong.

Pat Chen

Re: I feel this needs to be said...(Grades & FIRST Dedication)
 

This is a good post to remind students of... part of me wishes it were well before build season! I think most get the point, grades HAVE to come first. Now that doesnt mean every student needs a 4.0 GPA, but every student should have an aim of a passing grade or higher.

I see Tom's point that college isnt for everyone... but high school is the time to figure that out... and guess what? If grades dont come first, college WONT be an option. So unless you decide in middleschool that you arent going to EVER go to college, then grades should be your number one priority. Again, that doesnt mean sacrificing FIRST or the swimteam to get a 4.3 GPA (yes some kids at PHS have that... ugh!), but it does mean getting all your work done and trying as hard as you can with the time you have. Good time management (passing up bowling with your friends to do your geometry homework) will do WONDERS for your high school career. Plus, the aim of FIRST is to inspire students in science and technology... and tell me how many jobs in science and technology there are that dont require a college education?

We had a hard time on our team because this year we attracted some students who didnt always have great grades. We had to turn some away from competition. We had to ask a few to stop attending meetings until their grades came up... we even had to give away one's plane ticket because his mother said his grades had dropped. Every instance of this was painful for all of us, but it has to be done. All of our kids have their sights set on college, so they have to keep their grades up. I would have to say most learned from it and brought their grades up, or are still trying.

There were many times this year that students or parents came up to me (guiltily) and said that they needed to miss a meeting, or couldnt come to build because they had too much homework or to study for a test. EVERY time my response was the same... I will NEVER be dissappointed if they are skipping their FIRST responsibilities for studies. The team can still survive, their resume for college wont.

And in closing, I know too many students who in college decided that they didnt need to care about freshman year, or a class they didnt like... they would squeak by with 2.0's or something, and then think they could make it up later... they were WRONG. So many of them ended up with 2.7's and the such, and while that is not bad, I can tell you right now that as a key recruiter for Harris, corporate WILL NOT let us hire any college grad's with less than a 2.8. Some comapanies are 3.0's. So learn how to get those good grades now... it WILL make a difference.

Re: I feel this needs to be said...(Grades & FIRST Dedication)
 

I spent most of today typing and retyping replies to thread, I wanted to get it perfect. I finally got it perfect, looked, and Kim has already said what I wanted to say. Thanks Kim!

I hope this thread helps students realize their priorities need to be on school work first and I hope it helps teams that have to deal with this problem.

I ask that you keep posting helpful things and stories here, so the thread stays visible for awhile at the very least, the more people who see it the better I think.

Thank you everyone. :)

Re: I feel this needs to be said...(Grades & FIRST Dedication)
 

While I really, truly appreciate the comments made in this thread, I can only say that I recommend that you never let schools and grades get in the way of getting an education.

Very little of what I use on a daily basis in my career are things I learned in my formal education, but when I was young I developed a passion for learning that has stood me in good stead during 23 years in the high-tech industry. Learning to learn on my own and writing clearly are the two most important results of my early education. The content of what I learned in high school and college has largely been made obsolete since I graduated, but thinking and learning never go out of style.

As for grades, the less said the better. Grades are a bizarre artifact of the educational industry that ought to be eliminated -- and the sooner the better. I have a whole rant that I do on the subject, but let's just say that the older I get, the less sense they make to me. (And for the record, I had good grades in school. This isn't sour grapes.)

Re: I feel this needs to be said...(Grades & FIRST Dedication)
 

Rick, I'd guess that you and I are of about the same educational vintage. I concur with all of what you said above.

Early in my engineering career I got involved in the college recruiting team for my first post-college employer, in the defense sector of TRW in southern California. Although Kim's experiences in that kind of activity are more recent than mine, her posts (above here and elsewhere) show me that not much has changed. Grades are still used as a primary screen when evaluating entry-level candidates for engineering positions. So Kim and others are correct to caution all college students not to let their grades slip. [My own experience with college grades is remarkably similar to Kim's, although my extracurricular activities were different.]

All that said about grades, Rick's points are more important in the long run. The ability to learn on your own and to communicate ideas effectively are the most important skills -- they are elements of that most prized of team members, the self-starter.

Sometime during your career, a fundamental technological change, a global political trend, or a strategic business decision will very likely create a shift in the demand for people with your skill-set (whatever it may be!), and when that happens you will fare much better if you are one of the self-starters.

Re: I feel this needs to be said...(Grades & FIRST Dedication)
 

I have to agree that being a good learner and a self-starter are definitely very important in the long run of life. And I also have to say that I cant entirely agree with the grading system schools use. I want to think that teachers are "getting it" more and more, by giving students credit for effort, partial credit on incorrect answers, and relying more and more on project work for grades. I had a class at RIT where there were NO exams. It was all on small projects and the final project. So I feel in that case grading is fair... but yes, the fill in the bubble exams really just tell you how good the student is at finding the answer. And dont even get me started on the NY Regents... lol.

But as exampled by many of us here, it is possible to learn to be a good learner, a self starter, a leader AND get decent grades. I dont think the students need to choose. I think they can do it all in this case. All are important, and its definitely NOT necessary to have a 4.0. In fact, my boss told me last year NOT to hire students with a 4.0 (obviously cavioted with the fact that there are exceptions). In general they are too work focused and too book smart to have the common sense that my department needs (we travel a lot to strange places, have to think fast and out of the box often).

So I want to propose that most of us are on the same side of the coin. We dont need to choose which is more important (learning or grades). When done correctly and in the right proportion, students can choose both.

Re: I feel this needs to be said...(Grades & FIRST Dedication)
 

Yes.

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Cybersonics (103) requires every student on the team to maintain Honor Status throughout the year. In order to join the team, students are interviewed by team officers and mentors after a submission of there current GPA (at least 3.0), application, and letter of recommendation. All report cards are reviewed by team advisor's, who are teachers at the school when handed out. Anyone that is unable to maintain their grades while participating in FIRST will forfeit their attendance at competitions and/or other team activities.

Corey

Re: I feel this needs to be said...(Grades & FIRST Dedication)
 

That is a good point about failing classes for FIRST. Our team has a minimum grade average in order to stay on. Not very high to exclude some kids but high enough that you have to go to class and do well. No failing grades either. It's very fair and keeps the students from cutting and going straight into robotics for the entire day.

Re: I feel this needs to be said...
 

I hate to say this, but it sounds like you are excluding kids. You may not be, but it sounds like it. FIRST should be open to all students, no matter what their grades are at the beginning of the season. Not letting them go to a competition because of their grades is fine, but not letting anyone with a GPA less than 3.0 join doesn't sound right. Also it sounds like you are trying to perpare them for the real world by making them go thew a interview, thats a good thing. I may be interpreting this wrong and if I am please correct me.
Thats so right, and I'm just in my third semester of college and I know that you've got to want to learn or be left behind. Also there are classes that you might not need in your job. If your like me and are pursuing a technical career, then you don't need "normal" english classes. Just ones that help your communication skill in writing.

Anyhoo, again I'm off the main subject and I must of lied earlier when I said that was my "final thoughts on this." I'm not going too lie again, because I just might think of something that I want to say, again.

Re: I feel this needs to be said...(Grades & FIRST Dedication)
 

Unmatched dedication, effort, and hard work is required from each member in order to have a successful team and participate in FIRST. We do consider students with a GPA lower than 3.0, however we must make sure that they will be able to maintain their grades while being involved in the program. In reference to past experiences, if an individual is a C- student, they probably will not be able to provide the dedication and constant effort that all the other members are exhibiting. For clarification, if an individual does not have a 3.0 GPA, but demonstrates other high-qualities and is committed - we will not turn them away. To insure commitment, we put all members under a "6-week review period." For 6 weeks (starting from the beginning of the school year), advisor's and officers monitor each new student to see if they are doing well in school and participating in fundraisers. Each member is required to obtain three local contributors for sponsorship as well as selling tickets for our two annual fundraisers. Also let me add, that 103 has established a strong tutoring program that aids current members who are having trouble in a class(es) maintain honorable grades. We are not "excluding kids", but rather setting a standard for individuals to improve their grades and overall excellence in school to participate in FIRST.

Re: I feel this needs to be said...(Grades & FIRST Dedication)
 

There are requirements for sportsplayers' grades... why should FIRST be any different? Yes, help is offered but if someone chooses to not take it, to not focus on education - a point of FIRST - then they must take what comes (ie:off the team)

Re: I feel this needs to be said...(Grades & FIRST Dedication)
 

Funny trend on our team regarding grades, the more trips the student goes on and the more involved the student is, their GPA is on average higher. I don't know if this is because they are the people that strive for the best or what but its just an odd relation to grades and first.
-guy

Re: I feel this needs to be said...(Grades & FIRST Dedication)
 

Most schools have policies governing grades and extra-curricular activities. Our school is a 2.0 min GPA and no F for both athletics and extra-curricular stuff like band and robotics.

But be careful as Jherbie53 metnioned about excluding students. If your team is made up of all 4.0 students, great, but if they were 4.0 students before FIRST, then I think you're missing an opportunity to bring in a more diverse population of students that can greatly benefit from what FIRST has to offer. Can grades slip during a FIRST season, yep; can we take steps to minimize, sure. But in the end of a year, the general trend is that grades tend to go up for students in FIRST. A study has already shown this.

There are a lot of middle of the road, 2.5-3.5 GPA, students out there that can really benefit from FIRST that I feel get overlooked too often. As a coach, I often try to recruit those really sharp students, but I too have to remind myself to also look for those other students with the skills to do well in our program. I hope we all look to have more of those students on our teams.

Re: I feel this needs to be said...(Grades & FIRST Dedication)
 

That is a perfect statement! For me, its not the kids that come in wanting to do engineering and learn more about engineering that I call my success stories... its the kids that come in with the low GPAs, or zero interest in robots (maybe they came because their friends joined, or they wanted to travel or even because they just didnt want to go home), and came out with decent GPAs and an interest in engineering or something technical that are the true successes of this program!

Re: I feel this needs to be said...(Grades & FIRST Dedication)
 

I suppose I fit in with that description. When I joined my team I had a very low GPA (around a 2.1) and had absolutely no interest in robots or engineering, but I was already heavily interested computer science. I didn't join because of friends joining (actually I didn't know anyone from the team) and I didn't even know about the traveling, but I joined because my computer programming and physics teachers both recommended that I do so. I eventually gave in and joined, although I wasn't very enthusiastic about the whole thing. This year I have had a GPA of 3.888 (my highest ever) and I have gained an interest in embedded systems programming. I am also considering making my minor be in electrical engineering (my major will be computer science).

This is only my opinion, but I really think that a student's GPA has no relevance to showing how much a student can get out of FIRST, nor can it show how much dedication and/or effort a student is willing to put in.

Re: I feel this needs to be said...(Grades & FIRST Dedication)
 

Amen. Hallelujah. Whenever I read things like "everyone on our team has to be an honors student" I want to throw something.

For
Inspiration and
Recognition of
Science and
Technology

You'll note that FIRST's slogan does not include "for those students who are so self-motivated that they don't really need a program like this anyway." If we don't use our program to motivate kids who are struggling to find some reason to care about school, what's the point? Setting high grades standards to participate is EXACTLY the wrong policy to enforce. You are automatically excluding those whose lives could be the most transformed by the experience.

I just want to add that there is a positive correlation between intelligence and grades, but it is far from a strong one. You can get good grades by working hard, but "smart" is mostly born. Bored smart kids are so common in school that it is practically a cliche. Excluding those without good grades does not even insure that you are getting the school's best and brightest on your team.

Re: I feel this needs to be said...(Grades & FIRST Dedication)
 

I totally agree. Half of the responses in this thread make me sick.

I also agree with your points about lack of motivation. I was at the top of my class until school stopped being fun. I like solving problems. I don't like memorizing things just to get high scores on the exam, without really learning anything. Yet, it just so happens a majority of students need to learn this way, so that is how the material is taught. Without FIRST I probably would have dropped out of school by now.

(Then again, this is coming from someone who tries to "solve" questions in English class mathematically...)

Re: I feel this needs to be said...
 

FIRST was meant to promote peer and mentor inspiration, not exclusion. Many students not on the honor roll may be sticking with high school just because of the challege FIRST offers them. Sticking to a high school's athletic requirements are one thing, but treating the joining of a team like a job interview or college application is another.

My team requires no less than a C in Math and Science, and it is checked once a year: when a student joins the team. Rarely do grades become a problem. Many of us actually balance FIRST with part-time jobs, challenging courses, and other extracurriculars. Some people can handle it, some people can't. It's a personal decision that must be made solely by the person in question. If a college student feels they can handle the work load of their courses and mentor a FIRST team, they should. If they feel they can't, they shouldn't. There should be no issue as to whether college students in general have the ability to mentor.

Education is important, but for some, FIRST is their education.

Re: I feel this needs to be said...(Grades & FIRST Dedication)
 

I couldn't agree more.

Wow, so I'm not the only one. My English teacher must have thought I was crazy when I tried to find patterns and mathematically arrive at the answers to the exercises in our vocabulary books when I got bored.

Re: I feel this needs to be said...(Grades & FIRST Dedication)
 

Our team has an open door policy. You are welcome if you do the work. Sometimes it takes half the year for the team member to understand what that means. I've worked with the team for several years and have never seen a team member turned away. It's important for the mentors to help the process and it's important for the team members to accept this policy and welcome new members each year. A new team member learns so much the first year that when they return the 2nd year, they have changed in so many ways, it almost seems like they are a different person. If you have all one type of person your team can't expand in the areas it needs to.

(You can apply math to Shakespeare. Poe works but he can be depressing)
Jane

Re: I feel this needs to be said...(Grades & FIRST Dedication)
 

I've got to stick up for Rick and Tom, here.

To me, anyway, one of the most interesting parts of working within a FIRST team is seeing how the students progress through it, over the years. Though it may sound like I'm using the students in some grand social experiment, the point is that they are progressing. In fact, I might go so far as to say that I'm most impressed with the ones who go from mediocrity to playing a vital role on the team, in just a few years.

If there is a minimum standard that students need to meet, every single one of those students is excluded, at least until their grades improve. But that's the thing—as often as not, their grades won't improve, because they're unmotivated and uninterested by their education. FIRST is a great tool for motivating and captivating—but it's only useful to those who are allowed to participate.

The GPA requirements smells like an arbitrary standard that is fundamentally flawed in the way that it assesses the needs of the team, and the goals of education in general. Schools don't (or, at any rate, shouldn't) exist to churn out students with high GPAs—by all rights, that's a side effect, not a goal. They ought to be attempting to produce educated, capable individuals, and high marks or not, FIRST helps this immensely. Similarly, these sorts of people are exactly what a team needs—it doesn't help the team much to have someone with a 4.0 GPA if they can't wire a robot, or scout and strategize, or learn how to do one of these things. Teams, like real life, function because people have the skills to make things work; their GPAs in and of themselves are not sufficient predictors of the skills that they possess.

As a matter of fact, I'll go out on a limb and opine that if there's one worst thing that a team can do, it's preventing students from going to competitions, because of their marks. It seems foolish, to me, to expect that by leaving them at school for the three days that they would miss, they will somehow take the opportunity to correct whatever caused their low marks. When you think about it, it means that a left-behind student has to accept the fact that they're not being permitted to go, not because of their actions as a member of the team, but because of something unrelated—it's like being kept from playing baseball because you didn't practice the piano—it's got real potential for making them resentful. That's not going to help the team, the student's marks, or the excluded student. And if it's not helping, why do it? Because of the perverse (but pervasive) belief that by punishing an individual (and especially a teenager), they will come to accept and live up to your expectations? That is truly outrageous, and flagrantly ignores the natural tendency to learn better when having fun, than when being punished.

Re: I feel this needs to be said...(Grades & FIRST Dedication)
 

I consider going to competitions a reward. Letting a student travel with the team only when they've earned the privilege is conceptually different from punishing them when their grades don't meet the standard. The overt result is the same, but the underlying reasoning isn't the same as yours. Carrots don't make people resentful the way sticks do.

Re: I feel this needs to be said...(Grades & FIRST Dedication)
 

I would have agreed with you several years ago, but over the years there have been students who were not allowed to travel with the team because of low grades, or attendance issues

and you are right, they may not go back and fix their grade problem the next week, but students who went through this have come back a year or two later and said that this was the best thing that ever happened to them.

In the real world there are concequences for your actions. You dont follow the rules, you dont keep up your end of the deal, and you will suffer for it - lost jobs, lost relationships, flunking out of college, lost opportunities...

The rules should be spelled out clearly: if your grades fall below a set level (for any reason) you cannot travel with the team. If you fail any courses you are off the team for the rest of the year. And then the rules should be enforced.

What good is it to teach students the laws of physics, engineering principles, science and technology, but not to teach them the equally fixed laws of personal responsibility and cause/effect relationships?

Re: I feel this needs to be said...(Grades & FIRST Dedication)
 

You know, I'd like to point something out. High School is a great time in life but it is also an opportune time to test your limits and see what you are capable of handling before it counts "for good" in College.

I'm going to tell you my story. Please only see these statistics as information to prove a point.
A little background:
- 14 APs, 3.9 gpa (unweighted)/5.17 (weighted), 7 classes a yr, 9 addl taken
- 1 job over summer (40 hour weeks)
- actively on FIRST for 2 years, not as active 1 year
- v tennis 3 yrs, env sci comp 2 yrs, v swimming 1 sem, tae kwon do 2 yrs
- tutoring 2 yrs, volunteering @ hospital 1 yr, many speeches/presentations
- SAT score: 1450 (old), 2150 (new)/SAT2s: Math (800) Physics (800) Chemistry (790) -- I studied for EVERY SINGLE ONE (20+ hrs each)
- 300ish recorded hours of community service

No, I'm not perfect and this isn't the usual stats list but I feel that school is very important and should be taken very seriously in life. I have taken it seriously.

I have also taken FIRST seriously. Ask those who know me, I have tried every job possible. My philosophy is, if I dedicate myself to an activity, I do it wholeheartedly. I think anyone on my team (and those who know me personally) can vouch for that.

What's my point?
...you can do whatever you set your mind to. no doubt. But whatever you take on, you have to adjust your schedule accordingly. You cannot cut corners. I know, I know, school might be boring, stupid, or deemed as unnecessary. So? It's not WHAT you take but how you take it. I took my classes for getting a background, never studying specifically for tests but for knowing content and it worked pretty well for me. Even if I hated english, i looked at it to improve my writing. You can learn from everything.

I'd strongly encourage you to set your priorities now and stick to them. School is #1. You can do all of this and come out alive if you PLAN and make sacrifices. I didn't go out during FIRST season, there were times where I refused plans... you deal.

When you look back what are you going to remember? I will remember having fun, working hard, doing well.
Everyone wants to do that. It is up to you to set your schedule accordingly. To complete my schedule I had to have strict discipline. DEVELOP this. It will come in handy.

If anyone has any personal comments, please PM me personally. If you need help, let me know, this is what I'm here for. I love helping others, just give me a chance.

Re: I feel this needs to be said...(Grades & FIRST Dedication)
 

This thread has gotten more replies than I expected.

Since this thread is getting off topic and heated and I don’t want to see a fight, I’m asking it be closed off so everyone can cool off, and possibly reopened for discussion later if seen fit by those in charge.

Thank you.

Re: I feel this needs to be said...(Grades & FIRST Dedication)
 

I concur. Done - breathe in, breathe out, and we'll see you in a few.
-JAB