Re: Bumpers here to stay?
 

What ever happened to building a robot that can withstand a beating?
Our team didn't use them this year and we got beat up so bad, only one think happened to our drive train and that was a screw came loose.
I think that if you need bumpers to save your robot, you need to go back and re-engineer your 'bot to be able to withstand the illegal ramming that went on all year this year.

Stevie

Re: Bumpers here to stay?
 

Or you could use the bummers, as allowed, as part of your engineering assumptions and use them to your advantage, allowing for a different frame. They weren't just foam - there was one heck of a chuck of wood there too, that could be used for stiffening - and it was FREE in the weight budget.

I like the bummers - why? Because they allow more "robot interaction". So? People don't want to watch co-operation FIRST or Triple Play (And I loved Triple play) - a bunch of robots doing a task mostly un-bothered. No one is going to watch offence alone. If basketball was offence alone, then it would be an NBA version of HORSE. Football would just be a game of catch. And baseball would be a grand slam challenge. NASCAR would only be time trials. And as a Michigander, I don't even want to know what Hockey would become.

All that's from a team that was an offence bot this year. (In theory)

Re: Bumpers here to stay?
 

After scoring 10 balls in a row from the bottom of the ramp we were highspeed rammed by a robot that started its run from 1/2 court. No foul was called. It is my belief that they allowed this type of contact due to the bumpers.

Rules are only rules when they are enforced. FIRST made an effort NOT to enforce high speed ramming. When we approached the refs asking for a ruling on high speed ramming against us, they said they didnt see it. When we offered the video (yes, we have video) they refused to look at it.

The only thing positive I can say about the bumpers is that the officials were consistant. They called no highspeed ramming at all. Battlebots, here we come :(

Re: Bumpers here to stay?
 

The only strict rule was on the diameter of the noodle, which makes obvious sense.
Cordura was the recommended fabric - you could use anything similar. And even if Cordura was made the sole fabric allowed, it's not that expensive and is readily available online - presuming you're planning ahead, and not making your bumpers just before ship.

Re: Bumpers here to stay?
 

If your robot was at all on the ramp it was totally legal of any kind while robot is not fully on the carpet.

It is not the NFL, you don't get time to challenge a play and have the head ref take time out of the next match to watch a video.

Re: Bumpers here to stay?
 

pushing/shoving/ramming/defending was major in this year's game.

i can't see how a robot can hold together without bumpers.

-Q

Re: Bumpers here to stay?
 

You're thinking of <G24>, the pinning rule, not <G22> the robot contact rule.

There was no specific exception for ramming robots on the ramp.


With regard to the bumper cuts, let me back up Billfred's assessment of the situation. <R35> specified that bumpers must be designed per the figure drawn; Q&As were issued for clarification of just how stringently that had to be followed. They stated: "The only cuts allowed in bumpers are vertical cuts, completely through the bumper, and perpendicular to the plywood. Bumpers may have gaps as shown in Figure 5-1 in <R35>." (from here), and reiterated this position quite clearly on several occasions.

You won't believe how many teams had issues with this. FIRST should have definitely made this stipulation in an update, and not just in a Q&A, but the teams have to realize that they're responsible for following <R35> in the first place—all the Q&A did was suggest how much leeway they ought to have at inspection, in terms of minor deviations from the rule. In this case, it was absolutely clear: vertical cuts only (i.e. beveled ends to clear the floor when climbing the ramp, horizontal cutouts to clear the crest of the ramp, etc. were illegal).

I have many more bumper horror stories to tell...maybe I'll get to listing them later.

Re: Bumpers here to stay?
 

Incorrect.
<G22> [snip] • Rule <R35> in Section 5.3.4 establishes ROBOT bumper zones. Any contact within this zone is
generally acceptable, with the exception of high speed long distance ramming.

Please do not get me wrong, I was not complaining. All I was doing was pointing out to the previous poster that asking a referee to review a play was tried and was not allowed.

And as I said before, all was fair since the refs called the game the same for all matches (no broken robot, no foul).

Re: Bumpers here to stay?
 

I think that regardless of high-speed ramming rules, games are physical. Robots hit each other - they did last year, too; they just got penalized for it - and it's not always intentional. Robots must be built robustly to keep them safe from harm - if a robot gets mauled and is unusable, I would consider that a design flaw.
If next year's game is as physical as this, I would not be surprised to see an elevated driver's station. It was hard to see exactly what was happening 50' away from ground level - I think giving the operators a birds-eye-view would make the game a bit safer. Plus, I'm convinced that next year's game will include some definite topography (stairs, ramps, seesaws, etc.).

Re: Bumpers here to stay?
 

Bumpers have many benefits and pitfalls. Personally, bumpers saved our robot this year, considering it was a little top heavy. I cannot begin to count the number of times our robot balanced on two wheels and a bumper after being hit from the side by another robot. We won those matches because we balanced on the bumper enough for one of our alliance partners to tip us back and allow us to score. There were even ocasions where we were still shooting while balancing on our bumper. On the other hand, bumpers eliminate alot of design aspects, such as designing with CG in mind from the get-go, to material choice and such, because the students that design the robot no longer have to worry about how they'll make their drivetrain/robot withstand the abuse an FRC robot endures. This has a negative result in some situations, since the students may learn less than they would otherwise. Also, bumpers are more prone to aggressive play on the feild, resulting in more robots flipping and breaking. Bumpers are a great idea if robot contact and aggressive play are still called to a degree, and if structural integrity is still taken into mind during the design, there is almost no disadvantage. But like I said, aggressive contact has to be more closely monitored.

Re: Bumpers here to stay?
 

If nothing else, the usage of bumpers will likely help exdend the lifetime of the field elements! yes, in 2006, there were incidents of cracked sheets of acrylic, but all-in-all, the side rails will be be in better shape with the usage of bumpers.

Also, the usage of bumbers may be a safety benefit to the robots in the pits since it cuts down (no pun intended) onthe number of sharp edges that a team member can get impaled upon.

For the matches themselves, the use or non-use of bumpers won't make too much of a difference. Our battery cable came out (no Zip-tie) and would have done so with or without bumpers. Rules are already in place to minimize ramming and pinning, so bumpers won't change (and should NOT change) those rules.

They do add some imagery though!

Re: Bumpers here to stay?
 

i agree with what you are saying. however, this makes it seem like robots without bumpers got destroyed beyond recognition. to some extent this is true. our robot did not use bumpers this year, and the frame held up very well. no major cracks or dents.

i guess what i am saying that almost all of the robots in the past games have not been destroyed when no one used bumpers. bumpers are nice to have, no doubt. but they also prohibit some cool features on robots from being made.

Re: Bumpers here to stay?
 

My team read and knew that rule in the manual, but we decided to just cut away that part of the bumper anyway. At Wisconsin and and the Championship we had no issues with judges commenting on the bumper design. I thought it was really interesting that nobody said anything about it. I'm not trying to brag about getting around a rule, but I am happy that we did, as the rule, like I said before, didn't really affect gameplay at all.

Re: Bumpers here to stay?
 

like people have said earlier in this thread there isnt really a reason to not keep the bumpers. but then again.. it really does depend on what theyre planning to do for future games right?

Re: Bumpers here to stay?
 

So you knew about the rule, and decided to break it? Knowing that other teams would follow the rule, putting them at a disadvantage against you, as they cut off their bumpers vertically?

The effect that it had on gameplay was that some teams could not climb the ramp because of their bumpers. As you say here, you could. 25 points is a lot in a game - that angled cut in the bumpers could have made a huge difference in the success of some teams.

The season is over and done with, I know that this doesn't really matter much right now, but it still makes me cringe to see teams that don't follow the rules, don't let the playing field be level.

As to the issue of bumpers themselves, I would like to see them return. I feel that, as driver, it made me have to worry less about keeping the robot intact and more about actually defending against other robots. It made for a more exciting game, as well as making the robots more robust. As well, they are a nice way to display your team colours, and some teams really capitalised on that. My team referred to Waldo's robot as "the one with the red and white striped bumpers" - it made for easy identification. I know that my team wanted to make our bumpers out of kilt fabric, but then realised that it wasn't exactly strong nor polyester. We're working on getting some strong polyester in our tartan ordered for next year.

Some modifications to the rules may be in order, but I think that all in all, the bumpers were successful, and hope to see them make a triumphant return.