Re: Macbook!!!
 

Then how come when I walked down the hall earlier this evening and checked our parts bin, there were 6 brand new G5 motherboards sitting right there, still in their boxes? It sure looked like they were sitting in stock as spares, in case we ever needed them. And since they had Apple logos on the boxes, I am pretty sure where they came from.

-dave

Re: Macbook!!!
 

If Microsoft didn't publish an open hardware standard for the Microsoft OS, there wouldn't be an argument here. You are angry with Apple's marketing choice. Folks have been railing against Apple's closed marketing method ever since they released the Mac in 1984, it didn't start with the G4.

If the most common OS on the market today (Microsoft) chose to engineer both the hardware and software, there wouldn't be anything to compare. That is not how their business started; they began by writing software for other peoples hardware. Apple developed their business doing both.

In an interestng twist, Microsoft has more recently taken the closed approach to marketing and engineered the whole package with the X-box gaming system. And, just like Apple, people are ticked that the system is closed. Hackers have been cracking the system to fit Linux or Mac OS systems onto the box, much like hackers have been cracking Apple's control over the systems they sell for years.

Dave, I suspect someone on your IT Staff is an Apple Certified Technician, because this is not typical of Apple's method of operation. I provided 9 years of support for a local school, and though we could get the repair software discs, we couldn't get any hardware, because we didn't have someone trained. (Small school, 70 computers mostly donated from businesses, voluntary technical support.)

Re: Macbook!!!
 

The reason I brought this up in this thread is to make people aware that Apple's sales, marketing and engineering approach is very different from the PC line of computers and laptops (that changed our world).

There are two ways to approach engineering:

1. Make the best products possible at a price the market will accept. Continue to innovate and improve - stay locked in the engineering design cycle - keep you quality standards high - keep your customers happy by meeting their needs and solving their problems. Accept competition as the driving force that keeps you on your toes, and keeps your engineers working to stay on top of the game.

2. Sell your customers products for reasons other than engineering/design excellence (fads, image, snobbery, vague indications that your products are better with no real substance behind the claims). Then lock your customers in by not letting them modify, fix, improve your products, and not letting them use anything off the shelf from other suppliers whenever possible. Dont allow competition. Make a big profit every way you can from your customers: original sale, upgrades, extended warranties, repairs, supplies, accessories - keep sticking it to them.

A good example is the new Apple video Ipod. There have been video&audio cables out on the market for years with the 3.5mm 4 conductor connector on one end, and the yellow/red/white RCA plugs on the other. Camcorders have standardized the pinouts - you can buy these cables off the shelf at Radio Shack or any AV store. So what did Apple do with the AV cable for the Ipod Video? (Take a guess) they changed the pinout so only $30 cables from Apple will work! Whats more they had to put the video signal where the ground signal should be on the 4th pin of the plug - they had no problem compromising the engineering design to take more money out of their customers pockets.

Thats my point, Apple is not just another company selling computers and laptops and MP3 players - their focus is not on technology and innovation, its on your wallet!

When you walk into an Apple store and hand the Apple saleman $1200 for a computer, when you could get something better for $600, then he knows he has you!

Re: Macbook!!!
 

Yes, apple is guilty of keeping their software and hardware propietary, but are they any worse than the likes of Sony. Sony has a long history of keeping propietary formats which are closed off to the rest of the manufacturers. Look at UMD, MiniDisk, BlueRay, they are all closed formats! The only difference is that Apple does it with their hardware, Apple's focus is on controlling every aspect of their computers and Ipods. For years they have controlled everything about what parts go into their products and how they are designed, and function. This is what has given Apple it title of being the 'high end' computer manufacturer. It is also what has limited their growth to a very small market share, and no were close to the profitability of the likes of Dell. If you wana talk about a comany who'se focous is on profitability look at the PC manufacturers who have used the model for years where parts come from a multitude of different companies and seem to work together, but never seem to work perfectly together. Apple was a struggling comany untill the ipod came around, they have never made much off their macintosh buisness.

You talk about how you can get a similar computer from another company for half the price, but every time someone shows me one of them, they either use a lower processor, and terrible poor resolution (cheep) screen, worse graphics etc. Show me a computer which has very similar specs for half the price of a mac and I will believe you. To date I have only seen ones (dell's) which are off by $100 or so (Which I am very willing to pay for a much better designed/built computer which runs OSX).

Aren't these discussions fun :p.

Re: Macbook!!!
 

To get back to the point, Yes, it is overpriced, and even if you say it's not... you can't say that it is cheap. I, for one will never fully go with a mac system. They don't let the user repair them. Sit me down with a broken PC and I can fix it, do the same with a mac and unless I am a certified mac technician with the tools and replacement parts, I can't. Mac is for those who don't like to tinker, and don't want to worry about having to. as for the dual-boot Mac Windows system... there is no point. Windows, as of now does everything that mac does I just built the desktop equivalent the the mentioned mac laptop for under 260 dollars... and I got a cool case too. :p So I am sticking with PC.

Re: Macbook!!!
 

However the simple fact that you know this pinout means that they are at least somewhat open to competiton. Whether they released it themselves, or someone reverse engineered it (which obviously wouldn't be very hard..), they did nothing to hide it. There are plenty of companies that are capable of making an A/V cable for the iPod and I'm sure that some will be available soon. I would not put it past Griffin, MonsterCable, XtremeMac, or any other company to develop their own cable priced at or above the Apple cable price point.
This really isn't true. A big part of the Apple selling method is to ensure that the customer receives what they need and nothing more. This is the reason that Apple retail employees, unlike those at most other retail chains, are paid hourly salaries and do not receive any commission. We are really there to help people. If someone comes into the store and has absolutely no need for a Mac, we aren't necessarily going to suggest that they purchase one. This is especially true for additional hardware. For instance, a woman came to me looking for a flat-panel monitor for her MacMini. She was told by a friend that the Apple displays were the best way to go. She, however, did not need such a display as she really doesn't do much more than typing documents and browsing the internet, and so I sent her to CircuitCity with printouts in hand of the exact monitor to best suit her needs.

Yes, we do want to sell computers, but not at the expense of the customer's happiness. The price point is not set primarily for hardware. Much of what you pay for is the operating system and the experience you get when working with a Mac. If that is not for you then you don't need to purchase a Mac, but many people prefer it. I'm not going to suggest that someone who only browses the internet and wants to try out Mac OS purchase a PowerMac for $2000, I would suggest a MacMini to get them started and if they want to go up from there to the iMac so be it. Despite what many people believe, Apple employees are there to help the customer first and foremost, and to the best of their abilities even if that means telling them to purchase a non-Apple product.

Re: Macbook!!!
 

As I said before, I would never purchase a Mac desktop system myself, they don't fit needs and aren't easy to modify. I wouldn't say that the Mac is for "those who don't like to tinker," or at least I certainly wouldn't put myself in that category. I love to tinker. In general though I prefer Mac OS greatly to Windows, especially if I'm doing any audio work. That is why I own a Mac laptop. The prices for laptops are very comparable, especially considering the software you get when you purchase the Mac. It is not easier to upgrade a PC laptop than it is a Mac laptop, it really isn't. Having the ability to dual-boot is an added bonus for me. There are certain programs (ECAD, etc.) that don't run on Mac OS that I do need for daily work, but that doesn't mean that I would prefer to have a PC, I would much rather have a Mac generally. So my options are either to purchase an additional PC, or to have a Mac that can run Windows. The later is much more preferable. While it might not be useful to you, it certainly is to many others.

Re: Macbook!!!
 

Speaking of inabilty to improve the product, I was searching the "Mac rulez lol" sites and noticed this...

http://www.macworld.com/2006/05/firs...irst/index.php
http://www.macworld.com/weblogs/macw...ideo/index.php

Apparently, it's very easy, in this model, to remove the RAM and the hard drive by removing the notebook's battery and then unscrewing and removing the L-shaped housing.

So what does mean?

This could be promoting a "user-friendly" notebook in the sense that you can bump up the RAM and Hard Drive when you really want to.

So yeah...

Intel Core Duo (Starting at 1.83 GHz, though I wouldn't be surprised if they bump up the speeds anytime soon)
OS X
Wireless devices
Built-in iSight
iLife '06
Something that's portable
And the now the ability to upgrade with ease

"Starting at just $1099"

:D

Re: Macbook!!!
 

Apple is an end to end solution. They always have been, and always will be. There are advantages and disadvantages to it.

But to say that the Macbook is expensive has to check there facts first. I have priced out a similar HP notebook and it came out to be $1252. And that is without iLife, and all of that.

A couple of years ago a dual processor system at this price would be unheard of.

Right now Apple can’t sell computers for any cheaper because they using Intel’s new architecture. And Core Duos are still expensive compared to the older Pentiums.

But I do agree that Apple needs to have customizable options on their notebooks. This is one area that PC manufactures have an advantage over apple.

Re: Macbook!!!
 

well, yeah, you priced out an expensive HP notebook

thing is, you can get that notebook with less expensive versions of windows, a smaller HD, without the fancy bluetooth network card, without the complete WORKs SW.... and you are looking at a laptop more like $600

those of us who have owned PCs for the last 20 years dont need to buy everything with each new computer (esp SW) - and when you step away from Apple you have that option.

When you load up any laptop with all the bells and whistles you drive the cost way up - the manufacturer makes a huge profit from all that extra stuff - just like you can buy a baseline Saturn Ion for $12,000 or you can buy it fully loaded for $25,000 - but under all the gagets its still the same car.

Re: Macbook!!!
 

Air conditioning? Power windows? Sun roof? Can these things be added afterwards, no. Software can be added to computers, but not hardware. Remember Ken, for the majority of people out there they make one major computer puchase every few years, and it's when they get the computer. That's why they push you hard for the extended warrante and new shiny printer, they realize once you are out that door with your new machine you won't be back until you need it replaced.

I don't know about you, but HD and wireless options are an important thing to have, and getting a $600 computer with a small hard drive and weak processor might get the job done, but will become a $600 paperweight much much faster than if you get it done correctly the first time. I'd rather pay $1200 for 4 years with a computer than $600 for 2 years with one. That's why I own a PowerBook G4.

Re: Macbook!!!
 

In this case a desktop system and a laptop system are very different. A PC desktop you can build slowly adding and upgrading as you go, thats what i am doing with my computer(I'm ordering a 100 gig HD and a gig of RAM to add this weekend) but with a laptop it is a one purchase system. when you buy it you should get it with all you will need for a while becuase upgrades for all laptops are not easy.

Re: Macbook!!!
 

Boy I love reading how polarized people get about Apple and its products! Only religion and politics beat it for weeding out the meek from the truly opinionated (pro and con) - and we won't go into those taboo topics here! Since the thread seems to have cooled off, I'll see if I can fan the flames a little with my experiences and opinionation:

A recent CNET article says Mac deskops cost just 13% more than comparable PCs and the margin shrinks to 10% for laptops. The operable word here is comparable - as in similar hardware and bundle.

Contrary to popular belief, you can open the case on Macs and replace some parts (like memory, disks, graphics cards, etc.) - you just have a very hard time getting Apple parts unless you're certified. For people who tend to be like your typical CDer, that last part may be enough to keep them from buying Apple, but I'll bet a box of Krispy Kremes that the majority of computer owners (Mac or PC) never replace anything inside the box.

I used to believe that Macs stayed usable longer than PCs for a given set of uses, but I think the gap has narrowed a lot since WinXP. Still, the only reason I have to look at a replacement for my 3 yr old TiBook is so I could dual boot and ditch the clunky hp DV4000 I had to get to run some Windows-only apps I need. For everything else the 1 GHz G4 still hauls the mail.

As for reliability, I'm glad I bought AppleCare for the TiBook, because it needed a new logic board last year to cure a weird wake from sleep problem - the protection paid for itself there. It's also needed a new HD (1 mo) and battery (1 yr) which were covered by warranty. I don't think that's unreasonable service for a heavily-used laptop, though my wife's Dell laptop hasn't needed any service in 9 mo. (I bought the extended warranty for it, too). My daughter's AluminumBook (just doesn't roll off the tongue like TiBook), a couple of fruit-flavor iMacs and an old Dell desktop have never given problems, either. Not a statistically valid measure, but it's what I have to go on.

My next computer purchase will be a MacBook Pro for my other daughter, but I don't have any problem recommending a PC to someone who doesn't need that level of hardware and just needs a $600 Internet appliance - or a mega-powered system if they want games. So for me it really boils down to how important look, feel, design and being "different" is to you, and whether you're willing to pay 13% more for them. I could have bought a Subaru WRX for less than I paid for my Audi, but I like Audis (okay, I love it, but don't tell my wife).

Edit: There is one area I believe Macs are superior to PCs: long-term power-up stability. I leave my TiBook on all the time. Literally. Every couple of weeks I clear the caches and reboot for kicks, but otherwise it's either in use or asleep. I cannot do that with the hp, which also takes an excruciatingly long time to wake from sleep (the TiBook takes a few seconds, including re-connecting to the wireless LAN) - another area where Apple continues to lead.