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Do we have to buy a kit?
I think the title pretty much says it all. This year we found that we used very little in the kits beyond the control board and some of the motors. We are actually having trouble where we have a surplus of unused parts. We know that the kit cost covers the regional costs, but we've been wondering if we could just pay for the regional by itself and forgo the kit?
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Re: Do we have to buy a kit?
Well, there are certainly some items in the kit that are necessary for all FIRST robots, no matter how much you can make yourself. To have a functional robot and still stay within the competition rules, many kit items were necessary such as the motors, IFI Robot Controller, OI, etc. Under the 2006 rules, a KOP (Kit Of Parts) was not optional, every team that registered got one. There was also no process that I know of to return any of the items obtained through the KOP to FIRST or IFI and receive a refund. I cannot imagine this changing in the near future, but I suppose it is possible.
If you are looking for things to do with the unused materials in your kit, try contacting other local teams and seeing if they need anything. This year, some teams used materials from the kitbot frame that other teams graciously donated to them to help make hoppers and other sub-assemblies. You could also try posting some of the items on CD-swap, to see if you can swap your stuff with another team for something you can use. |
Re: Do we have to buy a kit?
Go ahead and ask FIRST about it. But it doesn't sound like a very good idea, simply because FIRST is not going to tell you what's in the kit, and what's required to play the game, until the day of the kickoff. So you'll have to procure those items on your own, at your own expense, using time which could be spent building the robot. (Note that some of those parts may not be available on short notice, or may be custom-made.) And, of course, be aware that nobody would be able to cut you any slack if you tried to substitute something for a required part that you didn't receive.
Now, since most of the kit parts are donated or discounted, I wonder how much money FIRST actually spends on a kit these days? It might not even make much difference, in terms of the registration fee. |
Re: Do we have to buy a kit?
This was discussed a bit at the state of Michigan forums. The final decision? Things like the motors and software made the kit valuable even if the other parts weren't used. It was brought up, however, to have the selection of 2 different kits, one "everything" kit and one more motors and software
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Re: Do we have to buy a kit?
If I remember right, some motors were only available in the kit and only the kit. I might be wrong though. :confused:
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Re: Do we have to buy a kit?
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Re: Do we have to buy a kit?
It really doesn't make much sense to me. Let's see:
Your first regional and KoP = $6000. Additional regionals = $4000 each. By my math that whole KoP = $2000. Since (assuming the rules don't change) you must use the current year's IFI control system then you would start off with a $1150 purchase. Now consider that you will probably need to use at least a few of the motors, Victors, Spikes, at a minimum then it just really doesn't make sense. For that $2000 you get about $17,000 of stuff. If you have a bunch of left over stuff from previous years that you don't know what to do with post it on CD Swap for sale, trade, or just free if you want to. That's what it is there for. |
Re: Do we have to buy a kit?
The kit packing and distribution process is already involved and complicated. Witness the kit part replacement procedures, etc. If anyone remembers the kit fiascos of a few years ago... Imagine that, only teams are also getting the wrong kind of kit that's also missing parts, etc.
I just think it'd be a logistical nightmare. If you start stockpiling extra parts, donate them to needy teams or as spares for the regional or something like that. |
Re: Do we have to buy a kit?
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I think I have gotten most of it correct. Anyone who was at the MI forums and thinks I got it wrong, please step in to correct... Zondag??? Tenbrink??? |
Re: Do we have to buy a kit?
Why not use spare parts for other various activities? We built a kit-bot out of un-used kit of parts materials solely for the programming team to test and try and de-bug as much of the driving related code as possible (including sensors and autonomous) while the actual drive train and frame were being assembled, as well as driver training.
Other things you could do with the unused KoP elements include: ~Making a robot cart ~Making an outreach/demo bot ~Fall/Summer projects ~Cool looking pit display and probably a bunch of other things |
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Re: Do we have to buy a kit?
I found the KOP to be one of the things that everyone always brings up when someone asks "What's FIRST Robotics?" Not having a KOP would feel SOOO weird.
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Re: Do we have to buy a kit?
There is a similar discussion to what Beth mentioned taking place on the PNW-FIRST mailing list as well. Essentially, what's being argued is that there are certain 'core' parts that are included with the kit and others that are included because they're available to include, but don't typically see much use. Examples cited by the PNW-FIRST group included, say, the window motors as non-critical parts from the kit, whereas the control system, obviously, and the CIM motors see repeated use by nearly all teams.
If there were a kit available that included these core components, but omitted window motors (of which, we have almost ten already), and did so at a reduced cost, there would be tangible benefits to the teams opting for the streamlined kit. |
Re: Do we have to buy a kit?
My real question if you didn't get the full kit of parts what would you have to play and tinker with to get idea's for the robot. I know some of my old teams best designs and ideas came from fiddling around with the kit the saterday of the kick off and the sunday right after. Also if you don't get the kit were do you get the surgical tubing (that gray elastic tubing). That stuff was an awsome way to store elastic energy in the robot very easily and safely, it was also fun to play with. I say that if you have an excess of parts that you've not been having enough idea's, for every part you have that's just sitting there you should think of a way of making something out of it and then doing it. Not only would it be fun it'd be good practice.
Happy Tinkering! |
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Re: Do we have to buy a kit?
I would love to know where you guys get your math! The real cost of the KOP? Probably around $10,000 by the estimates that I've heard. The software alone is more than $2,000. Perhaps we need to take one more look at what is in the kit and its market values before we give what we might value the kit at
[Edit]Fixing values, my thoughts were even low! |
Re: Do we have to buy a kit?
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I pulled the $17,000 from here: http://www.usfirst.org/about/2006/FR...nce_2006_3.pdf Kit Facts Retail value: $17,000 56 suppliers 350 parts per kit 70% of parts are donated It may or may not be accurate but it is apparently what FIRST believes so I will just have to go with what they tell us. I don't know for sure but I believe the number I have heard for the value of the software is closer to $10,000 alone. In any case, I figure we pay about $2,000 for the KoP and it just doesn't make sense to me to try to compete without it since at least $2,000 worth of stuff in the KoP is required to compete. Just my $.02 |
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Re: Do we have to buy a kit?
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Consider this, even if you estimate the material kit at $10K, the autodesk software alone if more then $2000. Inventor 11 lists for $5295 on Autodesk's website (non-educational version). You can get the student versions for much less, (probably about $750 for Inventor and 3ds Max) but what we get are more then single license versions, and usually ship with more then the retail educational editions. Ayway you look at it, the KOP prices individually are much more then we pay. The question I would pose is this, just because you don't need it this year, how can you say it won't come in handy in the future? My team collected 6 years of pneumatics kits before using it heavily one year... All those fittings and such suddenly because very useful. |
Re: Do we have to buy a kit?
In my opinion, it is unlikely that FIRST will never offer two different versions of the KOP. Think about all the companies and manufacturers that donate to FIRST. Their way of sponsoring this program is by donating their products to a kit that reaches over 2000 teams internationally. Even though there are items in the kit that some teams may not want to use, FIRST still has to make those items availible. My feeling is that the sponsors would be dissapointed- and annoyed- if they knew that although they had donated millions of their products to FIRST, some teams had refused to accept their donation.
Our team saw this excact situation this year with a certain piece of the KOP (I'm not going to say what it was). It was clearly a low-quality, last-minute addition to the kit, and it was of absolutely no value to our team. But nothing is free- somebody, somewhere had to pay for that piece of equipment. It would be unfair to the sponsor- not to mention ungracious and unprofessional- if we had refused that donation. |
Re: Do we have to buy a kit?
Yeh, sure the excess parts are annoying but it can also be very valuable to you next season when heaven forbid you break another part and you still will have that leftover motor, servo, sensor, or pump.
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Re: Do we have to buy a kit?
I think the real answer is: we can not know for sure based on anyone's math because the true financial information is not released publicly.
You can't assume that the KOP is $2k because even though it's $2k less for your second regional the regional shouldn't receive money. The way it works is the regional committee has to raise their own money. If they fall short of the $120k or so it takes than FIRST will chip in. If a regional relies on FIRST for too many years it may be canceled. I also think the software quote is very misleading. The software is meant for academic use which always comes with huge discounts. I doubt FIRST ever pays a dime for the software we receive. To sum things up, we can only guess at costs because we don't really know FIRST's financials down to the nuts and bolts. |
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The question is how you value the kit... There are few options...
My claim is that all of these are valid. But they give you very different values. I tend to agree with those who talk about the sponsors. I think a few would be annoyed if they provided parts as sponsorship and then found out on a certain set of teams received them. |
Re: Do we have to buy a kit?
there is no such thing as too many parts or useless parts, only parts you dont need yet. If there were ever an option to take a smaller scaled down KOP i would push my team not to take it. if a sponsor to my team or first was giving me free or highly discounted parts i would willingly take it. if i didnt have a use for it i would keep it packed away somewhere untill i needed it. and like people said if i wanted to go buy a copy of 3ds and Inventor alone it would cost way more than what i am paying for the entire kit and so it seems well worth it to me.
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