Welding with....WATER???
 

I found This Documentary on my local tv station's website. This man has "perfected" (or at least pretty darn close to it) a process which turns water into a gas. Imagine this technology in your car??!!?! I would love 50+ miles per gallon in my focus.

What do you all think?

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

I think we've discussed it before. Although I think this is a slightly different video that perhaps explains it a little more. Still probably bogus though.

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

We watched that in our robotics class.
I think it's amazing and it will help save earth. We're depleting our resources too quickly so finding alternative ways to fuel tools and cars would be helpful. :D

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

This is a fraud. The discovery of a miracle gas from water has been reported numerous times (search for Brown's Gas). Normally this is born from a misunderstanding of the properties of oxygen and hydrogen mixtures. Most if not all information on these gasses is found on websites with titles such as Freeenergynews.org. No scientific institutions have accepted its existence nor has it ever been proven to be anything other than a mixture of Oxygen and Hydrogen. Advocates of the technology refuse to run a mass spectrum test on the substances stating that it is not necessary.

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

How about you give us some actual data proving this before making erroneous claims.

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

I saw the same piece a few days ago here in Houston. Must be syndicated. Or, more likely, a PR piece from the company itself.

At any rate, I did a little googling on it.
An informative link:
http://www.phact.org/e/bgas.htm
Wikipedia's entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown's_gas

You'll notice they're a little sceptical. The documentary notes that they get their gas from a special fuel cell. Right there you can just jump straight to the assumption that they're working with a plain stoichiometric mix of hydrogen and oxygen. To suggest anything else is a huge scientific leap. Hydrogen and oxygen exist in just a few stable states at our kind of pressures and temperatures. You have water, hydrogen peroxide, and diatomic gases. You can't arrange a gas to somehow produce more energy in combustion just because of how you make it. You could make the same mixture with seperate bottles of gases and good regulators.

That said, hydroxy mixtures are useful. They've been used in "water torches" for decades. Electrolyze some water, pump out the gases through a torch, and light them. You get a nice, small, cool flame with no storage of volatile gases. They're great for jewelers that don't need much heat.

Using the gas for a car is something else again. Your choices are to generate and store the gas, or make as you go like with the torch. Storing a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen that only needs an ignition source to combust is asking for trouble. Meanwhile, if you're making it as you go, you'll need a bank of batteries and a nice heavy fuel cell. At which point you have to ask yourself why you're not just using the batteries to run a nice efficient motor instead of an inefficient combustion engine.

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

Alright, let's see if math backs up their claims... :p

At least this video gives us a few numbers to work by. In the video, it is stated that it costs 70¢ per hour to run, and in that time frame it produces 1500 L of hydrogen. The only thing missing is what pressure this 1500 L H₂ is being generated at. Since 1500 L seems a bit high, I will assume that this is at 1 atmosphere of pressure.

After doing a little Googling for more information, I found that this company is from Florida. According to the EIA, in 2003 the average price of one kWh (kilowatt hour) of electricity in Florida was 8.55¢. (This is the most recent data I could find.) 70¢ of electricity per hour divided by 8.55¢ per kWh comes out to 8.18 kW being used. So if their facts are right, it takes 8.18 kWh of electricity each hour to make 1500 L of H₂ at what is assumed to be standard pressure.

Since they claim they have "perfected" the process of extracting hydrogen from water, I thought I would compare their data to a reputable company from my hometown. Proton Energy has recieved millions of dollars from various government agencies to work on hydrogen generators, and they have developed several products.

If we look at one of their spec sheets, we can see all the data about their S- and H-Series H₂ generators. The hydrogen generator in this video made 1500 L in one hour. Converted to cubic feet, that comes out to 52.97 cubic feet of H₂ at 1 atm. If we compare that to the Proton Energy spec sheet, we see that their S40 model comes close in H₂ output at 40 CF/hr. Looking at the speec sheet, the S40 uses 17.6 kWh to produce 100 CF of H₂ at 1 atm.

To make 1500 L of H₂ at 1 atm (which is what the Klein/HHO company supposedly does) it would take 9.32 kWh of electricity using the S40. Factor in the price of electricity (8.55¢ per kWh), and we get 79.7¢ to make an equal amount of hydrogen using Proton Energy's S40.

So the grand difference of "perfecting" the process of electrolysis resulted in a net gain of 9.7¢ per 1500 L of H₂ produced at 1 atm, as compared to a similar scale generator from a reputable company. That is only about a 13% increase in the efficiency of hydrogen generation. So all this hype boils down to is a slightly more efficient hydrogen generator, and nothing more.

* Note: These calculations don't figure in the energy it takes to pressurize the hydrogen - they just calculate the cost and kWh needed to split water into H₂ and O₂.

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

I shouldn't be doing a happy dance or anything, should I?

I mean, this is still just electrolysis, maybe with some real fancy electrodes and gas condensers, but that all it is, right? :confused:

They make it sound like it "restructures the hydrogen and oxygen".

Now, last time I checked, 2 hydrogens and an oxygen only go together one way due to the theory of Valence Shell Electron Pair Repulsion (VSEPR). So, basically they mean that they keep the split H<SUB>2</SUB> and O<SUB>2</SUB> molecules in the same tank.

Unless...... maybe the electorlysis produces some random ions / wierd ionic bonds?

I think some of you have spent a lot more time researching this than I have. Did I miss anything / not give enough credit?

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

Something about just seems... fake.

I'm not a chemistry expert or anything like that but I think it's a complete lie.

Although it would be amazing if this so-called HydroTechnology could really be used to drive our cars.

Feel free to say "I told you so" to me if this does start showing up in cars.

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

I saw a news piece come across my email about 2 weeks ago about this very thing. I'm always an optimist so my hope (although not scientifically founded) is that this is a plausible energy alternative.

After reading the debate here about the feasibility of such an idea I am reminded of a quote I have hanging in my office. It says "Every original idea is first ridiculed, then vigorously attacked, and finally taken for granted.
- Arthur Schopenhauer" Consider your reaction if this were an interview with a denim-clad man espousing the virtues of an invention that simultaneously produces electricity and potable water.

I await the future with baited breath...

Sean

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

Art's analysis above wasn't aimed at ridiculing or attacking, or even debunking, the claims in the documentary. He was just showing, with simple calculations that don't require a deep understanding of the underlying science, that the actual benefit claimed is only an incremental improvement over commercially available technology. Clearly the idea presented is not original, nor do the results demonstrate that anything has been "perfected".

I hope no one here is interested in ridiculing or attacking ideas. Art should be commended for his clear analysis of the overstatements made in the documentary.

And as to the comparison with Dean Kamen's developments -- please! Dean certainly has a reputation for advocating technologies that need some work to attain commercial success, but he would not claim to have "perfected" a process if in fact he'd only improved it marginally.

That's bated (short for abated, or shallow) breath. Don't hold your breath for this idea.

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

Here's a website where a mixture of carbon monoxide and hydrogen is produced by running an arc discharge with carbon electrodes in water:

http://jlnlabs.imars.com/bingofuel/html/aquagen.htm

As far as "rearranging" the atoms in water (i.e. H-O-H to H-H-O), that just cannot happen (atomic hydrogen has only one electron and can only form one covalent bond).

Another consideration in this claim is how much energy is put in versus how is available. The laws of thermodynamics state not only can you not gain energy but you won't "break even". Any combustible products generated are going to require more energy (perhaps MUCH more) than will be released upon combustion.

On the more serious side of addressing energy needs, there's a lot of work going on with fuel cell research (hydrogen vehicles, etc.) see, for instance: GM Advanced Technology.

There's no "magic" answer to technological problems, just clever solutions developed by people with a good grasp of the fundanmentals, creativity and inspiration.

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

I heard about the whole electrolysis thing in my math class yesterday. My math teacher showed us the video on his computer and it showed FOX 26 doing a news report on it and we watched it burn and melt a bunch of substances and then there was the car. The guy said the car could go 100 miles on 4 ounces. But then hearing HHO, gas with the stability of water, I'm kind skeptic about it. Hydrogen vechicles just sounds a bit too dangerous for the public or anyone for that matter.

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

Anyone wanna bring this to their chemistry teacher and ask about it?

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

All these posts, and not one person has mentioned that welding with water would be fantastic for repairing our robots during next year's water game? *ducks*

(I'm sure that Dave is holding his breath for "welding with Jello".)

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

have you downloaded and read the paper about the HHO gas? it's interesting...and does appear to be out for comment by serious researchers.

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

I don't see how this applies, or is even plausible. To say that every original idea that is ridiculed and then attacked MUST be accepted seems foolish. It is true to say that every scientific claim should be attacked and tested before being accepted as true. That's not the same thing, however. Look at the story of N-Rays.

What I'm saying is, that just because something's being ridiculed and attacked doesn't mean there's some sort of merit there. Some times a spade really is just a spade.

EDIT: As to the claims in the paper... Obviously it's all original research. In fact, it's so original, that the vast majority of his sources are written by him. A brief skimming of it reveals that he's proposing an entirely novel way for molecules to bond that has nothing to do with valence bonding. On the whole it sounds rather odd to me, and no one else has done any followup research

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

This technology won't be arriving at any robotic shops for a while. When the cost for setting up a oxyhydrogen generator and tanks is less than the cost for setting up an oxyacetylene outfit, then maybe I'll go that way. Until then, I'll keep welding with acetylene.

You can use hydrogen instead of acetylene with a regular welding torch. All that is required is a separate hydrogen tank and dedicated regulator. In fact, you use the same torch and hose lines, as you see in every one of these movies.

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

If you look at the unit he has displayed, its all self contained. Im sure it will grow bigger if the need applies.

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

-Alright I will offer several rebuttals, however you have neither proven anything nor given us data to disprove.
-The second law of thermodynamics clearly states that you can not get out more energy than you put in. You can not put in 10Kj and get out 15Kj regardless of chemical composition.
-By traditional bonding theories a H-H-O gas can not exist. Using quantum bonding theories hydrogen will only accept 2 valence electrons.
-Mr. Forbes's article is perhaps the most scientific however there are several errors. The numerous graphs were taken using IR measures. Infra-red has been shown to be an inaccurate way to measure any Hydrogen Oxygen combination. The low specific heat of hydrogen burning causes fluctuating and unreliable results. Also the bond the author refers to as HxH-O is not explained fully. I can see no valid scientific reason that polarized hydrogen atoms would bond in such a way.
-As to his remarkable displays of welding technology the same can be achieved much faster with an oxyacetylene torch.

There have been many valid scientific replies to this post Mr. Perkins; you have not rebutted any of them.

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

Touche, Scientist I am not, however I do believe what I see. You ask me why grass is green, I'll tell you because I percieve it as green, you ask me why water is wet, I'll tell you it's wet because I can feel it. I'll admit first hand, I BARELY passed chemistry in college, so your knowledge of chemistry I assume is better than mine. I saw this article on the news, the news which I BELIEVE 90% of the time shows true articles. What I see gives me all the evidence I need to believe this, yeah you can bludgeon me with calculations and chemical equations of to why this can't be possible, when in fact I am seeing it work. Could this just be an elaborate hoax to something else? Sure, but don't try arguing with a perceptionist. Matt I do appologize if I came across rather rude, and I do appreciate the respect you used for calling me "Mr. Perkins"; I just think sometimes the internet askews one's intent.

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

Thank you for your respect for my views. I am also quite sorry if my initial statement was some what rude. As to arguing with you I have come to realize that neither of us can do that with any accuracy. I have no aquagen to preform test independent testing on and so I will rest in my case.

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

This business is at least a source of entertainment that can be
achieved with a couple of carbon rods, grommets, a soda bottle,
and a welder with good current control,

http://jlnlabs.imars.com/bingofuel/html/aqfdem.htm

but don't blame me if you try this at home and run into
trouble with respect to some of the obvious safety hazards.

Assuming that it really is just pure distilled water in the bottle,
the question of just what the flammable gas coming out of
the process is, and how it got made, is a worthy one before
you even get to the question of energy in versus energy out.

When asking and answering these questions, however, it is best
to stick to the scientific method and an exaustive analysis using
science as we know it before jumping to any conclusions of there
being new unknown science in play.

Have fun,
Eugene

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

I was just reading the paper, and the explanation seems a little odd. I don't know, I'll ask my Dad about it this weekend. (He has a Ph.d in Chemistry)

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

Buy a Brown's gas welder from these folks and maybe they'll tell you how you can neutralize radioactive waste with it :)

http://www.eagle-research.com/browng...es/possib.html

There's a lot of discussion here: http://www.phact.org/e/bgas.htm including a statement about getting "more heat energy out of hydrogen than the ELECTRICAL energy you put into an electrolysis cell by a factor of up to 1/6th. The rest comes from ambient input heat to an endothermic reaction if voltage is between 1.27 and 1.47 volts".

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

Wow! Have I taken a pounding here! My intent with the Schoepenhauer quote was not to point fingers at those who were discussing this topic and label their arguments as "ridicule" or an "attack". The quote was merely to remind people that many of the ideas that we take for granted today (a car in every garage and a PC in every home) were once considered novelties or thought of as having little potential impact on our world. The quote is not meant to be taken literally as a whole but rather as an idea or concept that gets us to be more open-minded about what is possible.

Sean

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

Thats a pretty amazing website dick, you think if you drink that stuff you will become immortal. Im still skeptical about this stuff, but i have done a paper on hydrogen and its potential to power cars, thats where we should be focusing on. The two main problems with the hydrogen that have yet to be solved are the size of the fuel cell, and the mass production of hydrogen. The fuel cells, to be reasonably sized and have reasonable power, need to be scaled down just a bit more. They are very close. However, extracting hydrogen from the elements around it in the most efficient manor requires the use of fossil fuels, so while gaining on using the hydrogen in cars, we are losing it right back in the hydrogen extraction. So, knowing our country, these problems will be overcome and i say hydrogen is the fuel of the future.
-Eric

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

Hey, I'm not trying to slam anyone or anything, just pointing out some of the background and controversy here. I have no doubt that the hydrogen/oxygen fuel does have specific applications where it is well suited. No doubt more uses will be found for joining dissimilar materials and the like. I'm more than willing to believe in some miracle breakthrough, but it's hard to overlook good, solid, proven science.

As for hydrogen and fuel cells, unless we discover some magic formula, it's basically not much more than a battery. Put energy in to get energy out. Perhaps it can be slightly more efficient, or cleaner, but I'm not all that excited about it.

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

As I read it, Brown's gas is proven neutralize radioactive waste in Canada. So, instead of shipping radioactive waste to Yucca Mtn in Nevada, the US should plan on sending it to Manitoba...with some Brown's gas on the side.

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

Maybe with a side of cole slaw? There's more than one way to get gas...

Honestly, I'd love for someone to come up with something new, but there's just too much voodoo surrounding this to excite me. Specific applications, yes. A cure-all? I don't think so.

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

He forgot to include that he was dragging a diesel generator to run his electrolysis machine :yikes:

-Q

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

well i was actualy watching modern marvels on the history channel and this one guy added hydrogen to his gasoline and air mixture and dramicaly increased his gas economy.

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

You've inadvertently hit upon something important: he improved his gas economy, but what about his total efficiency? The H₂ that he injects comes from somewhere; probably electrolysis. For each joule of energy that the hydrogen imparts to the combustion reaction, how many joules are spent producing it? More or less than if it were fueled with gasoline alone? What are the environmental impacts of the production methods used?

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

What are the environmental impacts of the production methods used?

Yeah. It's like adding a little hydrogen sulphide & methane gas in the classroom. It gets your attention but you have to consider the total impact.

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

It seems to me like these people are knowledgeable. Most of the stuff one can understand with a high scool education.
Check it out.

Re: Welding with....WATER???
 

I was hunting around for background info on this, and discovered MIT has in fact beaten these guys to the punch anyways. http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005...enenhance.html
There's a link describing the tech. MIT presented their research on it in DC in 2003, so they've been at it for a while. The synopsis is that adding hydrogen to the fuel-air mixture effectively enhances the octane rating of the fuel. So you can use this fact to design a leaner running, higher compression, turbo-charged engine without paying for actual higher octane fuel. MIT's contribution is a little (actually little, not a huge heavy electrolysis device) plasmatron that reforms the gas you're already using (not extra water you're lugging about) into hydrogen and carbon monoxide. You pump that in with your fuel, and you end up with 20-30% higher efficiency, even counting the electricity losses. Pretty cool stuff, and it sounds much more likely to make it to market.

Note, however, that you don't get magical efficiency boosts. You still have to design your engine to take advantage of its newer higher octane fuel mix.