Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

Here is the list of the 38 senators voted aginst making english the offical language of america.

36 Democrats, 1 independent, and 1 republican

Akaka (D-HI)
Bayh (D-IN)
Biden (D-DE)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Boxer (D-CA)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Clinton (D-NY)
Dayton (D-MN)
Dodd (D-CT)
Domenici (R-NM)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feingold (D-WI)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Harkin (D-IA)
Inouye (D-HI)
Jeffords (I-VT)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Kerry (D-MA)
Kohl (D-WI)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Lieberman (D-CT)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Murray (D-WA)
Obama (D-IL)
Reed (D-RI)
Reid (D-NV)
Salazar (D-CO)
Sarbanes (D-MD)
Schumer (D-NY)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Wyden (D-OR)

Kinda makes ya' think, huh? I'll chime back in a few...

::edit::

Thx for the rename

Re: Hm...
 

:confused: Politics here????

Re: Hm...
 

Chit-Chat : Any off-topic discussion should happen here.

My $0.02 - If the DEMs ever regain control of Congress, could multi-lingual ballots be far behind?

So I vote: aucune de ce qui précède
- keine vom oben genannten - nessun del suddetto - ninguno sobre - ... - none of the above

Re: Hm...
 

Just throwing a bone out there and see a few things...

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

What exactly are the pros and cons of having English as our official language?

I can see the benefit being that signs, communications, publications, etc. would be standardized so that communication would be easier (in an ideal world).

But the truth is, not everyone in this country speaks English, and not everybody is going to learn how. Making English the official language could serve as yet another barrier which places newcomers to this country on a lower level than "the rest of us" (I don't really know how to refer to the "old immigrants" - essentially people of European descent such as myself - because technically they are newcomers to this country too - the difference being that we have been here for just a few more generations). This language barrier would create an additional hardship to immigrants seeking employment.

Plus, I think that the more languages Americans experience, the more we can appreciate this country's diversity. America is an extraordinary amalgamate of the best that cultures from around the world have to offer. Celebrating the differences - be it language, tradition, or culture - will allow us to draw upon the great things from each part of the world.

Language also opens worlds of opportunity in terms of careers - there is a great shortage of multi-lingual professionals in this country. Many jobs go unfilled each year because the job position requires proficiency in multiple languages. Take the engineering world, for instance - I'm thanking my lucky stars that I chose to take German in high school, because Germany is a very important contributer to the science and engineering fields. Also, countries such as Japan, China, and India are major players in the engineering world. If only I could have taken Japanese, Chinese, and Hindi too!

I think the emphasis on an offical language would be detrimental to America's ability to be more aware of the world outside of the "Anglo-Saxon culture bubble". Already, this country has shown great ignorance of the rest of the world (ie. being unaware of the consequences of military invasion), and we are in desperate need to show some awareness. We should all make the effort to be as multi-lingual as possible, so that both immigrants and natural born American citizens can have equal access to the things they have to offer each other.

What do you think?

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

the flip side is, why should we have to learn the language of those who are not legally here? i realize that some to most of the 'immigrant' population is leagally here, but the ones that came legally usually knew at least enough english to get by when they got here.

it seems to me that the illeagels are putting too much pressure on the legal system to let them off easier and easier as the years drag on....

my $.02

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

If any language becomes the official language of the United States, then what exactly does that mean?

will we then need a department of the official language, to publish dictionaries and other language manuals, to define the official meaning and syntax of the official language? If we dont, then what does english default to?! How could a non government agency define the official language of the government?

Will people have to take a certification test to meet some minimum standard of proficiency in the official language, to be an elected official, or a public servant (fire / police / nurse / teacher... post office mail sorter) ?

If you dont speak the official language will you then be responsible to hire your own interpreter when dealing with the US government?

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

Not only am I proud that both senators from New York and Washington voted against this, but I'm hopeful that they each made it clear that discussing this very notion is an absurd waste of time and money.

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

An official language means nothing. People will still speak Chinese or Russian when they want to. Nobody is going to abandon the language of their homeland because the gov't will only listen if they speak English (which I'm sure won't be the case). If, as most of us are assuming, it forced everybody to learn English, then it would close racial gaps. It would mean that I could go anywhere in the U.S. and talk to anybody. That would be a wonderful thing. Look at the tower of Babel, when everybody could speak the same language... progress was made, but when they all spoke different languages... nothing happened.



One last thought…

If I move the France, I’m going to learn French, and if I move to Germany, I’ll sure as heck learn German, so why should it be any different for people moving to the U.S.A.?

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

The problem with this renewed push for an official language in the U.S. is that in some influential circles, it's not at all about the convenience of communication, and all about the marginalization of those who aren't stereotypically American. You've only got to look at the commotion surrounding Mexican immigration, to see that under the guise of homeland security, a hell of a lot of the discussion isn't directed at solving a particular facet of the problem in a magnanimous way (and let's be honest—the largest economy in the world has no excuse for a lack of magnanimity), but rather at censuring them at every step, and generally treating them like dirt. That attitude isn't far removed from the racism that plagued America not so long ago, yet for some reason, be it xenophobia, prejudice, or something else, the idea that recent immigrants (and especially illegal ones) ought to be positively crushed is rampant. Send them home, or funnel them through a transparent and just immigration system, but don't hunt them like terrorists, and don't legislate more ways to marginalize them, out of spite.

So when I see talk of an official language bill, and it's sponsored by the very same representatives who proudly announce that they support every effort imaginable to crush the 'alien invasion', I wonder if their isn't a causal link between the two things. The cynic in me thinks that this is all part of the effort to make America as inhospitable to unskilled foreigners as it can possibly be. For a populace descended mostly of colonists, immigrants and/or slaves, the utter distaste for the new crop of outsiders is startling.

I realize that this reasoning doesn't necessarily apply to the average American, who might simply think it cost-effective to maintain one official channel of communication. But when a correlation exists between the xenophobic politicians and the pro-official-language politicians, I can't help but think that this whole idea might be tarnished by their unwavering desire to maintain the demographic status quo.

Even if they had nothing but the best intentions in mind (maybe saving money, for example), I'd question the utility of such a program. After all, with government services the way they are today, how often is the primary language not English anyway? And since there will always be those people who are not fluent in the principal language, but who have to deal with important things in English, there's always a place for government services to offer critical advice in other languages, rather than pedantically deny it, because the request wasn't phrased in the right language. I'm not saying that everything has to be in every language, but immediate concerns transcend the desire for linguistic conformity—as an example, who would advocate for a terrorism tip-line to operate only in English, because it's the official language? Whose head would roll, when the tip that was received in Spanish was ignored, and people died because of it? The same goes for taxes—if you want to collect tax, it's only fair that you instruct people how to pay it in a way that they understand. Sure, they're obliged to pay, whether you do it or not, but how much money will you lose to people who (because they don't read English well) don't complete a tax return? Can you prosecute them all, and better still, would you want to, given the costs and the potential for dreadful publicity?

Back here in Canada, we do have two official languages (English and French, of course). But if you come to the government, speaking mostly Arabic, they'll at least try to help. Somehow, I don't see an equivalent attitude being too prevalent in some portions of the U.S., these days. Maybe that's my own prejudice talking, but on the other hand, the tone of the politics surrounding recent official-language efforts hasn't been too reassuring.

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

The only possible logic I can see to this law came to me while reading Tristans post. In Canada they do have two official languages, and if you want to sell products in Canada you must use both on the labels.

So maybe this attempted official language law here is a pre-emptive 'before its too late' attempt to stop cities or states from imposing their own multi-lingual laws.

Imagine if the state of California decided that anyone who sells products in their state must label them, and provide users manuals in English and Spanish?

or that all schools must teach Spanish as a second language, or all teachers must be fluent in Spanish? ....

This is the only thing that makes any sense at this point - not that the US government feels the need to establish an official language, but they sense some people may be on the verge of springing multi-lingual language requirements on the American public, business and local governments?

and this is a pre-emptive way to nip it in the bud? The state of California (for example) could not require state employess to be fluent in Spanish if the 'official language' of the United States is English.

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

The bill reads, "To declare English as the official language of the United States, to establish a uniform English language rule for naturalization, and to avoid misconstructions of the English language texts of the laws of the United States, pursuant to Congress's powers to provide for the general welfare of the United States and to establish a uniform rule of naturalization under article I, section 8, of the Constitution."

There's nothing there about shampoo labels.

Read the full text here: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:h.r.00997:

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

Having skimmed through that bill, I can see there have been attempts to preclude certain essential services from being rendered only in English. (See the proposed 4 U.S.C. §163(c)(1-7).) That much is a welcome departure from the rhetoric that's been flying in the political arena.

Also, the naturalization requirements are apparently intended for citizens, and not mere resident aliens. That can't really be construed as a roadblock against immigration.

So the bill seems to contrast sharply with the rhetoric. On one hand, the bill is pretty tame. On the other, the cries for Ameri-centric legislation are ever louder. Now that the issue is a little cloudier, I'd be interested in the specifics of the opposition to the bill.

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

the comma at the end of this part of the sentance means this section stands on its own

the rest of the sentance is "and" "and" "and" ... implying a list with the rest of the commas

"To declare English as the official language of the United States," pretty much covers everything that happens in the US that the government may be involved with

education, state government, and trade regulations (labels on boxes).

Goto Canada - look at the signs, and the labels on all products - they are not only French in Quebec and English everywhere else. Its required by law.

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

If it is illegal by our laws to come here through less than proper channels, then why shouldn't we treat those who do come here through those channels like criminals? If they tried to skip over the "transparent and just" system, why should they be shoved back into it? I agree that marginalizing a LEGAL minority is nothing but racist, but If the minority's very being here is breaking the law, then I don't see why they shouldn't be marginalized.

More on topic:


A national language would do nothing but help unify the people of the nation that adopted it. It would encourage those who were coming here to learn the language that everybody else speaks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...#United_States

If other countries have absolutely no problem adopting English as their language, Then I don't se why the U.S.A. does.

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

Oooo, man. Here we go. See, this is why I posted this. I know you all want to get your opinions out there - but comon now, as soon as someone sees different than you - you get in a huge uproar.

My view is that it should be English. My father came here and learned it. So can anyone else - just put fourth a little effort. Start adding one language - than who is to say it's fair to add JUST that language? Here in the SE Michigan area - should arab be added to everything because of the city of Dearborn?

Just keep it the way it has been - English. YOU moved here, we didn't displace you. IMHO you have to bend to the home team, not the home team bend for you...

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

We treat criminals like less than equal, do you have a problem with that?

A criminal is someone who breaks the law,

An illegal alien is a foreign national who resides in another country unlawfully,


You do the math.

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

Yes but, let me give an example, lets say I trespassed on a clearly marked trespassing zone, where the consequences are I get arrested and removed from said area. Now lets say life is clearly better in this enclosed area, and I also come to find out I can enter said area forever yet, I have to go through a lengthy process. If I choose to go in there without going through the correct process it is considered trespassing

Why isn't coming into the country without going through immigration considered trespassing?

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

is there a difference?

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

Excellent post, Tristan!

Encouraging immigrants to learn English is not exclusionary if done soley for the purpose of bettering communication. As someone here already said, most communication in this country is in English anyways, and it is still necessary for newcomers to this country to learn English in order to succeed.

Keeping this in mind, an official declaration of our language is really not needed. The fact that there is no need for such a law calls into question the motivation for introducing such a bill. Personally, I believe that the motivation is to treat non-native English speakers as second class citizens.
I agree that those who are criminals should be treated as such. The problem that I have is with the discrimination against those who, like Tristan said, are not stereotypically "American". I feel that our immigration system intentionally makes it very difficult to acquire a legal status - not because of the fear of terrorists (the system has been in place since before 9/11) - but because they want to "keep out" those who they perceive as being a threat to the existing culture (the Anglo-Saxon bubble that I referred to in my first post). This has happened throughout American history - the "old" immigrants have always made it difficult for the "new" immigrants to establish their identities as Americans.

When people complain about immigrants (legal ones) taking "American" jobs, I feel frustrated because in my view, these people ARE just as American as I am! Why is it that people who don't speak English are treated as something less than American?! This treatment is especially hypocritical coming from those who fit the "American" stereotype - people of European descent whose ancestors were immigrants once too! For example, my great grandfather came here from Italy speaking no English. But he worked hard making a living on a farm, had children, and in this way he established his family in this country. For a long period of time, Italians were discriminated against in this country and were viewed as "non-American". But I, his descendant, am now considered by society to be an "American". Why can't we allow modern immigrants to establish themselves in the same way? Why can't they be "Americans" too? Why can't they shape American culture in the same way that the English, Italians, Irish, Polish, Germans, etc. did before them?

To me, "American" isn't defined by ethnicity. You are an American if you have a desire to live in and contribute to this community. The deliberate attempt to strip people of their cultural identities does not contribute positively to the nation. The differences between cultures - and consequently those people's perspectives - are the things which make this country great. Establishing an official language (when it is not needed) is simply symbolic of trying to standardize the definition of "American" and prevent minorities from making a positive change to this country.

So, with that said, the problem I have is not so much with the direct effects of the law would be - but instead the message of racial discrimination that this law would represent.

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

Why shouldn't you give them a chance? It's obvious that they want to be in the U.S., so put them through a broadly permissive immigration system, rather than kicking them out. Nobody wants to be a part of the immigration system that currently exists (skilled workers excepted), because it's deliberately very difficult to succeed at going through it. It's expensive, it's time-consuming and it's designed in such a way that if you screw up with a deadline or a payment, you can be kicked to the back of the line, setting you back up to a decade. So they cheat their way in, hoping to avoid a system in which they rightfully have little faith. They're not criminals in the same way that rapists and theives are criminals—their crime is neither against person, nor property, nor public order. Their crimes are against the state, and of all entities, the state is in the best position to offer them a way to improve their lives, rather than just eject them reflexively.

You know all of those jobs that get shipped overseas, because American workers want too much money for the task (or because their employers want to pay too little)? Let the immigrants ease their way into those roles. That's not far from what's been happening in Canada for decades—as one group of immigrants establishes modest prosperity after perhaps a generation of relatively low-brow jobs, another group tends to fill the roles vacated by the upwardly mobile. Contrast this with what America, where all too often, the minorities get trapped in the low end of the socioeconomic spectrum, often for generations at a time. (These are trends, and don't reflect every situation in these countries—but all the same, the contrast is worth noting.)

If America were overpopulated, or utopian, or otherwise unsuited to taking on more residents, I could see a restrictive immigration policy being useful. As it stands, though, perhaps the largest reason that America gets away with restricting immigration as much as it does is the high birth rate (as compared to all other industrialized nations).

Too easy. By your definition, by travelling at 61 mph on a road marked for 60 is makes the driver of the vehicle a criminal. Should we deport him? Or, if he's from America, should we imprison him?

If not, why not? The answer, of course, is that there's a wide variety of crime available to be committed. The supposition here is that being an illegal immigrant is hardly a big deal—it's like speeding, more than it's like murder. And so, the response should take into account more than just the fact that it's a crime; like speeding, it may be necessary to tolerate some amount of it, if it's impractical to write a law that accords violators a little flexibility. For the majority of immigrants (the peaceful, harmless ones), that flexibility should come in the form of the opportunity to contribute to American society, while simultaneously contributing to their own improvement. That is far more humane a solution than sending them back in a prisoners' bus.
In parts of the developing world, communication in English serves as a means to rise out of poverty, through relations with the developed, English-speaking nations. In the developed world, it has become a language of commerce, because of its ubiquity. But note that few countries have adopted English to the exclusion of their native languages—in fact, you really ought to be arguing that the U.S. adopt Spanish or Mandarin, because those languages serve the same purpose in America as English does in India—facilitating communications with trading partners.

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

The majority of debate here has been discussing illegal immigration like a cafeteria. Why shouldn't you let the weird kids come sit at your table? It's not an infringment on your rights, there's lots of seats, right?

The problem with illegal immigration (Which, by the way, has hijacked the actual topic of this thread) is that it's not dealing with lunch tables, it's more like dealing with houses. Quite accurately, it's like having random children sneak into your house and eat your food.

Bottom line is that aliens use roads, schools, services, welfare through illegal channels, and sometimes even push citizens out of work. Sometimes. Problem is, these sneaky kids are deprived and hungry, and don't ask to come in by ringing the doorbell, because they might not get fed. They eat out of your cereal boxes, and sometimes push your own kids out of their seats. But only because they have less than those kids.

Problem is, the grayscale has returned.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
On topic (kind of), I see why you brought this bill to our attention. We must act quickly! The Democrats are slowly converting our country to a confused ethnicity so that we might be a more marketable sell to Belgium!

Battle Stations!!!

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

At the university where I work, we have students from all over the world. They come to our office seeking help/services. The information provided to them spoken, written, on-line, counseled - is in English. The forms distributed and the referrals given are in English. Sometimes interpreters are needed to help the students understand better. Our purpose is to help every student enrolled in the university to achieve success in their education, supporting them along the road to their goals: careers, more education, research - degrees.

- a thought -
- a friend of mine left a month ago to reside in Shanghai, China. Her husband has been hired by a company to teach English there. She is taking classes in Chinese.

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

I think the flaw in this statement is with the given. Where does it say that we treat criminals like less than equal? Criminals are given the rights of Due Process, which realistically contains all of the bill of rights within it. We give criminal the necessities to live and every right given to them in the Constitution.

I am not sure of the reason for this thread. If you wanted a chat about making English the official language of the USA, then that is what you will get, but if you wanted a thread about whether we should force immigrants (legal or not) to learn our language and value our ideas and honor our holidays, then you should have asked for that.

Just because the official language of the USA could be English, doesn't mean that there will be a shortage of other signs/labels/books in other languages. Go to Mexico, or Europe or travel to another country. What will you see? Signs, in many different languages, many in English, and Spanish. The solution? Be active , don't force others to learn your way, adapt to the changes in society and the culture of the United States, LEARN Spanish, It will make you desirable and marketable, and you will have unimaginable job security.

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

Let me share with you a story.

I have tutored children in the sciences who burst into tears of joy when they realized I was bilingual. One of those kids, who could not understand math and science before, is going to attend a science and engineering magnet high school this fall, is planning to join a FIRST team, and wants to become an Engineer.

Did I mention his family immigrated illegally, that he is the only one who remotely understands English, and that both of his parents work 2 & 3 jobs (respectively) to ensure that their children have opportunities?

Put aside politics for just a moment, Chief Delphi! Start thinking about actual people, and maybe you won't be arguing among yourselves so much.

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

So, would you prefer a sneaky American freeloader to a sneaky Mexican freeloader? Because that's the distinction that we have to consider. There exist plenty of Americans who do everything that the illegal immigrants do, with respect to using American resources. All that distinguishes them from the Mexicans is their country of origin.

Note also, that there is a not-farfetched perception that America is the house with an excess of food, where it wouldn't be such a big deal, if a little bit of cereal went missing occasionally. Despite the best efforts of some of the fanatics out there, it's plainly obvious that the influx of illegal immigrants is not unsustainable, so long as they don't all crowd the foyer, so to speak. To prolong this analogy, if they spread out around the house, and do some cleaning, in exchange for food, they're not such a drain after all. They're making themselves useful. Give them half a chance to make themselves useful, and you'll be surprised at what they might accomplish.

In the good old days, when ethnicity wasn't confused, which ethnicity was it? Be careful what you wish for.

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

Oh yeah there are-way more of them probably than illegals. But, many of them pay taxes, and those that don't are pursued by welfare officers and the IRS.

There's always another side to the argument, everythings always a little blurred- hence grayscale.

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

As cruel and cold-hearted as this sounds.

You have no one to blame but their parents.

It's proven that Illegal immigrants have taken millions in funds. Not to say that there is MORE than a fair share of legal immigrants/citizens that abuse the system, but it's stretched thin enough.

Again, my father went through this coming from Palestine with the war w/ Israel going on and yada, yada, yada. ANYONE can go through the process. Yes, it does take time - but is it DOABLE and is put in place for a reason.

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

My view is pretty simple with the whole thing. Regardless of whether English becomes the official language, I think if you live in this country then you should make an effort to learn English. Just as if you were living in France, you should learn French, and German if living in Germany. Learn the language of the country you're living in.

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

Because they are here Illegaly, We don't let a theif take a car and keep it. The theif cheated his way into the car, hoping to avoid a system that is expensive and time-consuming, a system that makes it so that if he is late on a payment he loses his car. But we still take the car away Because it was wrong of him to take it in the first place!

Because that accomplishes the exact same thing that sending jobs over seas does, it takes a job away from a legal american citizen, and gives it to somebody else, who does not live in america rightfully.


No, we shouldn't. The penalty for speeding is a small ticket. The penalty for border hopping is being deported. That statement made absolutely no sense. He drives over the speed limit knowing full well that if he gets caught, he will get a ticket.They come over the boarder knowing full well that they will be deported if they are caught.

A Criminal is a criminal, different crimes earn different punishments. people can't hide behind their ethnicity. I don't care if you are Mexican, Chinese or any other nationality... to get into this country, you have to go through the proper channels, plain and simple. you don't sneak in and then expect to be able to stay. I wonder what happens at Disney World when they catch someone sneaking in.

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

OK, let me step in for two seconds. No naming names.

Guys...it's 11:49 EST. Why are you awake? Go rest. You can reply to this tomorrow. Chief Delphi is probably not going anywhere.

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

Tal vez un dia nos daremos cuenta que nuestro lenguage expresa nuestra identidad cultural, y esto es muy importante para el individuo quien desea sentirse orgulloso de su cultura.

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

Yes, one's language does express individuality... but by enforcing a national language, you are not making everybody abandon their individuality.They can still talk in whatever language they want, anywhere they want. I know many Americans who are learning second and third languages, and even taking trips to their country of origin, but not one of them are going to ever speak French, German, or Spanish in their home, or anywhere in everyday life when they are in the other countries. English will stay a part of them, and they will remain individuals.

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

Staying on the topic of a national language, I seem to recall hearing that very soon (maybe already) white anglo saxons will be a minority in the US

maybe thats what this is really all about - certain groups feel they are losing their control over the country, and are going to do what they can while they are still in power.

Power is one of the major motives behind human actions. When you feel you are losing control some people go off the deep end.

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

To go along with my curiosity and this topic: what states currently have a State language, or require English to be spoken in certain aspects of the State?

For example, I know Arizona requires classes in the education system to be taught in English, the actual proposition can be found here:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homep...ford/echar.htm

I'm not exactly seeing the point of a national language still. Currently not knowing English makes it difficult to succeed, and I doubt that will change anytime soon. It seems there is little need for more incentive to learn English then that.

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

See attached picture

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

The statements that have been made by "English Only" advocacy groups only serve to support this statement. Read these:

Draw your own conclusions.

On the other hand, read the following statements by the Linguistic Society of America:
Just some food for thought. I would encourage you to browse the various advocacy websites... many vary greatly in terms of the spectrum of views presented.

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

What do we do about squatters?

'Illegal' and 'wrong' are non necessarily the same things. And they, for better or worse, are necessarily interpreted on a situational basis, especially when the interests of a nation are involved. The thief analogy captures some of the problem, but it's inadequate to convey the complexities of the immigration question.
Who cares? Someone has a job, someone's doing better than they were previously. And frankly, if I had the choice between elevating a first-world citizen from unemployment to gainful productivity, and doing the same for a ex-third-world immigrant, I'd tend to pick the immigrant, because they have further to rise. True, America also has its destitute, and for them, I'd welcome a job placement where they can earn a living wage. But when a middle-class or higher citizen complains about a migrant taking his job, I've got very little sympathy. If the immigrant can do it cheaper, faster, better, etc., then why are we fostering an unproductive practice? Because it's patriotic? (Are you a capitalist or a jingoist, at heart?)

The problem is, the immigration system (in America) is principally constructed to keep people out. Every step of the way, there are hurdles and barriers to slow you down, to discourage you. And what's the point? Nearly none of that is devoted to getting people who can fill American needs; mostly, it's there just to get the number of immigrants down. And all this, when America clearly needs people to fill jobs in the service and manufacturing sectors. Apart from the fleeing criminals and sly terrorists (of which there are very, very few), illegal immigrants aren't sneaking in to steal your car or blow up your city. They see jobs unfilled in America, jobs that pay more than they're accustomed to, and wonder why the immigration system won't let them fill them. They skip around it, because they know that they don't stand a very good chance at all of getting in any other way.

So are they unwanted? Well, it sure seems that way, when you talk to a politician. But businesses will privately confide that they do value the services of the migrant workers, because that's the only way that they can compete with the offshore companies. They can't afford to pay American wages, because Americans aren't willing to pay commensurate prices for their goods. The immigrants aren't stealing jobs, they're filling jobs that would otherwise have disappeared, because of unsustainable wages.

The irony here, is that immigrants, be they illegal or otherwise, are prolonging the survival of many sectors of American industry. Without illegals, for example, the cost of California produce would rise dramatically. You'd end up importing much more from South America, because you wouldn't be able to afford domestic prices. The domestic industry would wither. So what do we do about it? Cut American wages? (Can't do that, American citizens object to low wages.) Bomb South America? (Let's not try that....) Among other possibilities, the most convenient compromise is really the one that exists now—look the other way at the illegals, because they, in large part, are the ones keeping prices down for the consumers.

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

Following just one thought from Jaine's post regarding the disappearance of the indigenous languages - I lived in Louisiana for several years before moving to Texas. Through one of my Cajun friends, I learned that the Cajun language and music is being threatened because the younger generations are not learning it. With that slow disappearance goes much of the history/culture with it.
That was a great post Jaine, thank you.
Jane

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

We let them stay in a house... PAYING TAXES on said house for SEVEN YEARS; This proves that the rightful owner of the house does not want it any more and the AMERICAN who has been squatting gets it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tristan Lall What do we do about squatters?

We have the world's most successful economy because we do things a certain way. Illegal immigration stands to change that. Have you ever stopped to think about the REASON we only want skilled workers? It’s because our lower-to-middle class is made up of 60% unskilled workers. We have enough, and when you add more... you get people without jobs. Have you ever been to Mexico? Do you understand that there is as much opportunity to work down there as there is up here? We paint Mexico as being an economic hell-hole, when it really isn't. People that migrate illegally are looking for an easy way out. They don't want to work to become an American citizen, but they want to reap the benefits of being one. That doesn't seem right. (And I assure you, sir, that I am no jingoist.)



Sometimes when I think about a national language, I think that we aren't that far from the faceless mass of people portrait is so many sci-fi movies, but when I look at communication, as a whole, has helped the world... I can't imagine anything but good coming from a shared language.

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

That's not an American phenomenon, and has nothing at all to do with whether the occupant is an American. That's British common law, which states, in principle, that any person may attempt to make such a claim. And the taxation is wholly separate from the issue of occupancy. Your claim to the property is not contingent on paying the back taxes (in most jurisdictions, at least). But the point is that even though we can probably consider it a crime, it's not treated in the same manner as an ordinary crime against property. It's intended as a counterexample for the supposition that every crime demands a swift response to counteract it.
Alright; maybe you're not necessarily a jingoist, but you're going too far in attributing America's success to its "certain way" of doing things. (By the way, recall that you've also got 300 million people. When you look at per-capita GDP, on a working-time- and cost-of-living-adjusted basis, you're 4^th.)

Fundamentally, there's a problem with American labour, and with American companies: the workers want often wages that the economy can't support. (It's not exclusive to America, but it's certainly prevalent there.) Basically, if you want to earn $35/h, you need to contribute a proportional amount to the GDP. If you're not doing that, then your personal compensation represents a drag on the economy. This is neither the exclusive domain nor the fault of unskilled labour, though. America needs all sorts of labour that can do the job cheaper, or more productively. The thing is, cheap labour drags down wages—on one hand, the Mexican displaces an American, because the Mexican costs less to employ. On the other hand, by dragging down the wages in that industry, it is in a better position to compete with rivals overseas. Consequently, it can actually cause growth in that sector, restoring jobs (albeit at the lower pay scale). This is a simplification, covering only one facet of a big problem. But it's not insignificant, and represents a very good reason why immigrants in general can be good for the economy as a whole. Of course, American workers hate it, and since they, and not the Mexicans, vote for the government, is it any wonder that the U.S. government takes the stance that it does?

As for the surplus of unskilled labour, the cynic in me is coming out again: isn't there a surplus because in general, it didn't take much skill to earn a handsome wage? But with the competition from overseas increasing substantially in the last few years, shouldn't the focus be on training the workers who want to earn more with specialized skills (to be productive at a higher rate), rather than just paying them more, and hoping that the productivity will improve because of it?

The issue isn't really with outsiders needing to learn English as a de facto language of society. It's with the potential for the government refusing to provide essential services in a way that is accessible to everyone (aliens and citizens alike); they're the government—when we need the official word, we turn to them, so it's only reasonable that they make substantial efforts to permit everyone access. It's also with the way that this movement gets tied to the same people who, to be blunt, don't like Mexicans (or perhaps foreigners in general)—that's correlative, not causative, but in the event that there is a firm link between these things, it's unconscionable to let even one iota of racial prejudice dictate policy in America.

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita_per_ hour

See! Belgium is #5! The Democrats are weakening America so Belgium can gobble us up! We must take action!


(Sorry...Maybe we should all just lighten up and realize that internet debate does nothing but MAKE MONEY FOR BELGIUM!) :D

Re: Voting on making English the official US language (Was: "Hm...")
 

Andrew is right... In the end, the frivolous struggle with Belgium is all that matters. If you would like to continue to debate this, then PM me, but I'm done hijacking this thread :)


EDIT:

ANDREW WE HAVE BEEN TOLD FALSEHOODS, LOOK AT THIS SCIENTIFIC PROOF THAT BELGIUM DOES NOT EXIST!!! http://zapatopi.net/belgium/