Why do we think we are better?
 

Well, as time goes by, I hear more and more about how FIRSTers are more morally upright than everyone else.

We aren't.

We are just like everyone else, and we should stop thinking we are better. Lets face it: Non FIRSTers don't look to FIRST as their moral role model. As much as we try to follow Gracious professionalism as a rule, Not all of us do and we are by no means a perfect community. We are just as biased or "corrupted" as the people around us. Acting like we are to be looked up to is wrong because we are just people.

I'll be the first to admit that I am not the perfect example of gracious professionalism, even though I try to be... and I think it's time for us as a community to stop pretending that we are to be looked up to, as though we do no wrong.

For every apparently gracious professional FIRSTER that visits CD, there are a lot more people who have no Idea about Gracious professionalism that don't Visit it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are no perfect communities, and I think that we should stop saying that we are, We should instead accept the fact that we are flawed and just try to fix it.

Until we can prove that we are perfectly gracious and professional, we should stop saying that we are better than our peers.

I'm not bashing GP at all, I just won't pretend to be something that I'm not, and I definitely won't correct someone else's problems until I have fixed all of my own.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

I agree whole heartedly. Not enough people know about GP to know that the people that practice it can be looked up upon.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Why do FIRSTers think we're better?
To paraphrase The Hacker Manifesto, "because we judge people by what they say and think, not what they look like."

To put it another way, it's because we hold values like honesty, integrity, and intelligence dear, while so many others only care about looks, clothes, cars, etc.

Or at least that's the vibe I've always gotten. Maybe I'm just cynical.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

If we do not stand for the principals of GP then what exactly do we stand for?
We are trying to change the culture. To seek "business as usual" makes no sense when you see the insanity that plauge most other competitive sports (which has been taking a severe black eye recently with the doping allegations on all leveles). At the very least would you try?

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

We have no right to tell others what they are doing wrong when we do so much ourselves that is un-Graciously professional.

and Kokoed, we stand FOR the INSPIRATION and RECOGNITION of SCIENCE and TECHNOLOGY.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

I don't know if I'm missing something here, Cody, but when and where did a FIRSTer ever say that we have a perfect community and that we are not flawed? Where was this ever implied? I don't see it.
By being in FIRST aren't we recongizing that our world is flawed and trying to make a difference about it?

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Well I'll tell you what.
I don't know how you do things on your team we TRY to teach our kids to respect the rules of FIRST, the rules of society, and the rules of the team because that is how we do things.
We are not always successful. We had kids and nentors who were rude and disrespectful. We had kids and mentors who had broke rules.
We also have a code of conduct that holds them accountable for their actions because we care how we are perceived and how FIRST and perceived in the general community and in the FIRST community!

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Here.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Someone here has quite a bit of testicular fortitude for bringing this up, and I think I agree with him...

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

I really think this is an unfair thread. Not every one in FIRST thinks that we're better than non-FIRSTers. I know some non-FIRSTers that are so respectful to people, and when I talk to them, it's like we're on the same level GP wise. I will never think a FIRSTer is superior to a non-FIRSTer and visa versa. We are all people, all EQUALS. Just because someone has a more respectful manner doesn't mean their better. Yeah, there are some people who go around saying that FIRST is better, but compare that to the amount of individuals who don't. Cody, not to be mean or anything but you basically just stereotyped everyone in FIRST, and as someone who doesn't think that people in FIRST are better than non-FIRSTers and visa versa, I'm slightly offended. Yes I understand you're on my side (I think?) but to say that everyone else isn't isn't right.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Hmm... when did I ever say that we were better than any other community or any normal people? I don't even remember of telling any other community that they are doing this/that wrong. I don't think I have ever discussed that with someone.

Cody, I will agree with you where you said not all of us are perfect or not all of us practice gracious professionalism. No one is perfect, you can't expect anyone to be either.

I would like you to point out where we said "we are perfect," so we can aplogize to whoever we said that to.


We don't want you to pretend somebody you are not either. Again Cody, please show us where we went and corrected someone and gave wrong advice.

I don't hear any of these that you are trying to point out, I spend all my extra time on FIRST events in South Florida or building prototypes. You know usually when I meet someone new and they ask me what I do for fun, I say, I build robots. In response I hear them tell me "wow, that's cool." I don't go ahead and tell them, "Ya, man, I build robots, you are definitely nowhere near my standards," moreover I ask them to come watch a competition or come join us on the team so he/she can enjoy the time just like we all do.

What am I trying to say Cody? I don't understand the purpose of you bringing up this topic without any proof or actions that has been taken beforehand which might have put down others. So, please point us to the right directions and tell us the reason for brining up this topic. Thank you.


Edit:
Cody, do you not agree with what this person has to say? Do you not have values that are honest?

I will come out and tell the truth. Even though I am a FIRSTer I care about clothing (yes I have closet full of FIRST shirts), but I do have other clothing that I care for (just incase you doubt, ask Nehalita on this forum), I care about my cars and dream about them. So what? I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

The overall feeling I get from this community is as I said, and I don't have the time or disrespect to name names. If you'll notice, the original thread includes me in the community of FIRST, along with everyone else who has been "wrongly stereotyped". The same goes for that which Arefin posted.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

I more or less take offense to a generalization... I'm not perfect, nor do I claim to be. And I sure don't think I'm better than anyone, including NonFIRSTers....
I see what you are saying that some people have an issue, but I'm with Arefin on this one

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Um, please don't take offense if you have been wrongly grouped.

Before I posted this, I had a bunch of my friends that read some of the posts that have been happening, and that I am writing about, and they got the same feeling that I did.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Wrongly grouped? I AM a member of FIRST... you are referring to FIRSTers...

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Well Cody, like I said before in my previous post I will repost it again...

Please tell us where you or your friends have felt that we said we were better than them or we offended you guys so we get a chance to apologize.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

All I'm thinking about during this arguement is:What Would Dean Do?
I bet that would make a great baseball cap to sell at the championships! :cool:

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

OK, if we aren't going to actually talk about the topic, then in the true style of the posts before thiss:

Show me where I said in the origional post that EVERY last FIRSTer feels this way.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

OK, Arefin. and Anna.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

We aren't better than other people, but FIRSTers are still role models. Many FIRSTers interact with elementary or middle school students. Seniors are sometimes role models to freshman. Experienced and successful FIRST teams are role models to rookies. Mentors are role models. College students can be role models to other students. Dean Kamen is a role model. We aren't trying to make ourselves that way, but the fact is that we are. Remember Dean Kamen's thing about athletes and engineers as role models in the community? It's a big part of what FIRST is about.

Yes, we should all recognize that GP doesn't make us better than everyone else, and GP isn't better than a non-GP system of judgement or interaction. Gracious Professionalism is still important, and again it's part of what defines FIRST.

Having GP and being respectful and moral might give some people an attitude that they are better than other people. One needs to make sure they don't get that attitude but must still "hold values like honesty, integrity, and intelligence dear."

EDIT:

Also: I don't think FIRST is the reason for following rules, being respectful, etc. We should do that anyway.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Not every last FIRSTer but a " general feeling"

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

You didn't say it outright, but generally I personally am getting the message that that is how YOU think. You said "We" throughout your original post, so who is this mysterious "We"? Since this is CD, I'm assuming the "We" is FIRST as a whole, because that's how it seems to work around here.

This was my first year in FIRST, and I'm not quite sure what you are going on about. I never had any delusions that I was better than my non-FIRST friends, and i certainly don't have more upright moral standing than my non-FIRST friends. So, since you are the one who posted this, are you telling me that YOU feel superior to your non-FIRST peers? Otherwise, why post this at all?

I don't think that the other CD participants appreciate this kind of insulting thread. It offended me, and it looks like it pissed off some other people as well. I'm really hoping that through the negative rep you are going to acquire through this post, you will have learned your lesson.

Good day to you, sir

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Basically this is a branch off from this thread and this thread.

Guys, this is getting ridiculous times a million now. This all started because people thought a team was sneaking a case of mountain dew into a convention center, even when they had permission to bring it in. They posted a picture as a humorous joke. And now it has suddenly exploded into three completely varying and abstract topics, none of which really make any sense at all and are just leading to a bunch of off season arguing.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Is unfounded pride and hypocrisy a thing to be role modeled?

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Unfounded pride and hypocrisy? Who is this? Is this what you see in FIRST?

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Got me while I repliued there, and he is right.



All anybody is disagreeing with me about is that they don't like being generalized as a hypocrite, and nothing about the topic. Until EVERYONE in FIRST does so, then my first post still stands.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

:confused:

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Not at all, Ed... I see FIRST as an inspiration for any upcoming engineers, both to be Great engineers and great people.

Great people don't brag about how great they are.

EDIT: Sorry Ed, that one did too :D

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Let's start a personality cult too! :yikes:

I know, Dean seems like a nice guy, but this sort of thing implies blind adherance to someone else's beliefs—wouldn't you rather have people ask themselves "What Should I Do?", than pass off the responsibility for making morally justifiable decisions on to a figurehead?

I, for one, will continue to correct other peoples' problems, irrespective of whether or not I've got my own problems solved. It's not hypocritical for me to provide assistance, even if I could use some assistance myself—indeed, who hasn't got a few problems hanging over them? (So, everyone take your best shots at my glass house, because I'll be swinging for the fences when I aim for yours!)

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Who said anything about blind adherance.
I'm talking about making boatloads of cash! :D

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Okay, y'all. Chill.

Some folks are posting every handful of minutes which means two things -- you're very nearly making this thread into an IM-like conversation in violation of CD.com's rules and you're posting knee-jerk reactions to someone else's equally illformed replies.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Everything Non-GP. It happens right here in FIRST, and in all communities, as far as I know. A very famous individual once talked about how we have a tendency to deal with the sliver in someone else's eye, rather than to deal with the plank in our own eye. If FIRST is setting an example to people who see this site, do we want them to see us saying "We are better than them, set an example so that they can come up to our level."? I don't.


That is the gist of what I was origionally saying.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

With all due respect, Cody is stating an opinion. His opinion. I don't agree with every statement in his initial post, I don't agree with every counter-statement made by others.

Opinions are based on experience. Some of you are offended by Cody's post. Thank you for sharing that, I'm sure it's being held in consideration. Others of you agree that it's a subject that needed to be brought up. You bring different experiences to the table. To some people, posts with a "we aren't rule-breakers" vibe send a different message than upholding a standard.

Perhaps many of you have had spectacular experiences with friends, and you've never doubted equality. However, Cody speaks for those who may have seen membership in this group, like any other club or sports activity or organization, affect friendships, schools, families...people...everything.

As Ryan said, yes, maybe this is based off of an odd inspiration, but it is an opinion nonetheless. At the very least, I plead with you to respect it, if you are the role models you aspire to be.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Yar. See, this is why I don't come arround here anymore. Nobody can admit that they have a problem, and thus results blatant hipocrisy as they try to change everyone else but won't change themselves. I left four months ago because of this, and returned today hoping things had finally changed.





I guess I'll be back in another four months.





Edit: Eugenia has made the best and most viable point of this whole thread.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

You can be taken as a great example Bemis. You know if you were to post a list of things here which may have offended you or things we don't do right, maybe we can change ourselves so we don't lose members.

... you can't say that every single of us have posted against you or said something to you which is the reason you didn't come back for 4 months. The way I see it, you are running away from a problem that can be solved by a discussion.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

This is a discussion, and the problem being discussed has yet to be solved. Furthermore, all i've see it do is escalate to greater heights.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Personally, I want to say, that in my own opinion, this thing has been blown completely out of proportion. People have opinions and others have completely opposite opinions. That point has been made. If anything, this argument has made us look worse than we actually are. Arguing within our own community? What have we come to? This needs to end, and end quickly. Brandon, where are you when we need you?

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

[, do we want them to see us saying "We are better than them, set an example so that they can come up to our level."? I don't.


Cody,

I think we are trying more to say.......This is the level where we all aspire to be and while no one can ever live up to perfect....we should all try. Not only for ourselves but as a group. In order to change the world and make it a better place we must start with ourselves.

I know as a person I'm deeply flawed, but as a mentor I try very hard to model the behavior I expect from my team.

Now granted I'm still a rookie but I have never gotten the impression that anyone on CD thought they were better than the rest of the world.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

That is another way that CD discussions of late could be taken, and I respect that. I would not have posted had I not KNOW that it was not my own opinion and that others wanted it said.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

I think much of this discussion at hand is how we perceive ourselves and the world around us. From experience - hence my opinion on this - I know that life gets so much better when you admit to yourself that you are not perfect, that you cannot solve every problem in the world, that you are not always right, and that you have much to learn. Maybe its just being humble.

I know I may not always follow every rule in the world, and that I am nowhere near perfect. Yet I set high standards in life, and I try to live by them. Does this mean I think I am better than everyone else? No. I'm human, just like everyone else. I understand that, and I make every attempt I can to try to act in a better or more responsible manner.

If everyone stopped trying to act like they alone are right, and started to accept that both sides to every argument may have valid points, then the world would only become a better place. Remember that old saying, that you should always listen twice as much as you speak? It can and still does apply today, with the exception that maybe listen can be replaced with "read" (or "think") and speak with "post". ;)

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

I think it is interesting that you bring this up Cody - not crazy or out of line like others here claim your thoughts to be.

When I think about it, I realize that the problem that you pointed out really has to do with human nature - not FIRST in particular. I can pretty much guarantee you that almost every human being has experienced difficulties practicing what they preach (I am no exception :o). People have been aware of this aspect of human nature for millenia ("Let he without sin cast the first stone"), and the general consensus is that hypocrisy, in a utopian world, should be avoided. But,if hypocrisy were against the law, it would be impossible for people to make any changes in their viewpoint. Contrary to the opinions of some, I believe that it is a great sign of courage and intellect when a person is able to reform their views - as opposed to taking a stance and standing by it, even when it becomes painfully obvious that they are wrong. FIRST allows people to discover the less-than-ideal aspects about themselves, and gives them a positive atmosphere in which they can make a change.

Organizations such as FIRST exist in order to make an impact upon the rest of the world which is positive. FIRST would not be able to spread it's message if the perfection of every participant was a prerequisite. Gracious professionalism is something that the organization encourages us to strive for. If we can only embody that value 90% of the time, or even 80% or 70% of the time, we are still making a positive cultural impact.

Just because we are striving for it doesn't mean we are going to be perfect 100% of the time. Nor does it mean that it is hypocritical for us to encourage this change in other people. If gracious professionalism is a value that we support, than nothing should stop us from supporting it. None of us are perfect, but participating in an organization like FIRST gives us the opportunity to grow as human beings. The goal isn't perfection (and the organization would be pointless if perfection were required in order to participate - we wouldn't have anyone to change or inspire!), but improvement. If we can all contribute to the betterment of society, why should we let our own imperfections stop us? The more we can show the world our "good side", the more the world will be influenced by our model.

Good questions Cody - don't let anyone discourage you from raising good ones. :)

Jaine

Edit: One thing to add -

You are right that FIRSTers should not speak to others in the "holier than thou" manner you took issue with. However, what those people should do instead is realize that no one is perfect (including themselves), but because of their values, they are still obligated to try to make the world a better place. If that involves sharing their opinion, that is fine, as long as they treat the other person with respect and as an equal. Personally, I believe most FIRSTers fall under the latter category - showing humility and compassion. Occasionally, someone will abuse the ideals of FIRST by percieving the world as black and white ("me good, you bad"). This action in itself does not adhere to the values of gracious professionalism, and I encourage people to avoid it. As a general rule of thumb, it is a good idea to try to stand in another person's shoes and treat them as your equal. It's called respect.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Okay, everyone stop jumping on Cody.

Cody, I understand exactly what you are talking about. There are many members of this community who hold a viewpoint that somehow FIRSTers are somehow on a different moral plane than the rest of the world. I see and hear it all the time. People who make assumptions that everyone in FIRST is an honest and good citizen. The responses in this thread really prove Cody's point. There's a tendency for people to act like ostriches and stick their heads in the sand. The fact of the matter is, there are bad people in the world and there are bad people in FIRST. I'm not about to start painting with wide brush strokes, neither should any of you.

Yes, we should strive to make this community better. Yes, there are plenty of people in this community who do have more integrity than the average bear. Those people who assume that everyone does, are deluding themselves. By no means am I saying that every FIRSTer has this uppity attitude, but it does exist.

BTW, there really was no need for this debate to get so heated. I think the people who have been involved need to take a step back, examine their motivations and ask themselves why they got so worked up.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Mr. Kamen was in Austin this past week visiting National Instruments. I attended his keynote presentation. It was regarding Innovation and his 6 Rudest Realities. He also talked to the techies and guests about FIRST, describing what it is and what his vision of it is. That engineers and scientists inspire young people in the fields of technology and science. He also talked about changing the culture so that more and more students want to get involved in these fields and aspire to be engineers and scientists. He talked about how bright and motivated the students in FIRST are.

I came away from listening to Mr. Kamen thinking more along the lines of what Wendy just stated. FIRST is in process of growing and developing, always. Look at VEX. Mentors and students are always in that same process.
ChiefDelphi is a place for discussions among FIRSTers and a place for guests and visitors to feel comfortable visiting to learn about FIRST. It is a place of learning for all of us.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

What is the point of looking at yourself as superior?

Does your own persanol ranking of people ever having any benefits?

Thinking you are superior really has no benefits, so why do it.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

It's not about thinking of yourself as superior. It's about holding yourself to a high standard, trying to live like a good person, and expecting others to do so as well.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Im glad the heat came out of this debate (or at least so it seems at the moment), and some great reminders and thoughts have turned it into a better conversation :)

Cody, I can see where you (and presumably some of your friends) get this impression. I do think good points were raised by Wendy & Jaine... that FIRSTers are aspiring to be better people in general... not better than everyone else, but better than who they were.

I have a perfect example for this. There is a student on my team who came to us as a young sophomore. Every other sentence out of his mouth was some sort of lie or stretched truth. No one knew if they could trust him, and his reputation was horrible. Because we kept teaching GP to our team, because the mentors pushed him hard to start acting it, and tried their hardest to be models of it, he has grown immensely, and while he isnt 100% improved (none of us EVER will be), he is now much more dependable, trustworthy, and was even selected to be our team leader in his senior year.

FIRST is not about being perfect. Yes some of us may try to tell other FIRSTers to uphold the rules or act more GP... its because we are all struggling to be better than we are now, not better than the rest of the world, just better than the people we were yesterday.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

I've read most of the thread but lost track of the flow, so I'll just give my schpeel and be done... in short... I don't think it's that we think we're better than others.

Well, it is and isn't. Yes, we are better than others. We built a beast of a robot that does an awesome function in a short 6 week time period. Probably 95% of the school couldn't do it, if even 5% of the school DID do it. And thus we are on a pedastal(sp? pedastle?) above the others in our school, for having done something we feel great love for, and succeeded in it. Even more so if you go and win some awards.

But...

How different is this from the football team, the soccer team, or whatever et cetera sport team that goes and succeeds? It isn't. The football players feel better about themselves for doing well, the tennis team feels better about themselves for doing well, just as much as we feel good about doing well. Any group that goes and performs a function better than others could, or that others couldn't, is indeed better than the others in that area. The fact of the matter is that no one's better in all areas, and we each have our separate spotlights that we shine under. We're equal in the general view of our separate shining points, just unequal under those specific shining points. Gracious professionalism is equivalent to sportsmanship as far as I'm concerned, they cover most of the same area.

The inherent difference is that FIRST, VEX, and the LEGO leagues were not available to us all of our lives. For most of us, any way, and those who have had it available for so long are quite the exceptional exception. Quite a few of us probably feel comfortable calling ourselves geeks, nerds, techies, maybe even a few trekkies :D And for the most part we've been on the outcast side of the social circles. The football players have been able to sit on their spotlights and show them off forever. All the girls wanted the football players, not the geeks hacking through school protections so they could access "net send" and talk to each other in computer class. The jocks have had pedastals(sp? again) the entire time from which they bent down to look us in the eye. And all of a sudden... we have our own. We have our own piece of work that we're able to be proud of, and want to show off. We have our own trophies which we can be happy that we earned, and earned in the name of our schools (or other institution). And we did it all, without 90% of the verbal and physical dislike that you find in many sports. Suddenly, we've achieved as well if not better than they have, and we've done it in a much more professional manner.

You'll find most of this is due to atmosphere. You've got the difference between a field, where you are personally battling with others to prove you are better than them, and the field your bot is on, where most of your battle is a hundred feet away trying to make your bot excellent. How are you making it excellent? Programming, working with electronics, manipulating constructed equipment. Which, in the future, will be predominantly in a business setting. The sports players need to train themselves, battle with themselves to make themselves individually and as a team harder, better, faster, stronger, to beat the other team. They are personally competing with every other opposing player. They NEED to be better than others. The put-downs come in due to human nature. In FIRST, you're on a team. Your team will be placed in rank among the other teams, less about your skill, but by the quality of your ideas and your implementations of those ideas and the surrounding strategies according to these ideas. FIRST is a bigger competition of idea than of ability.

Then you get to the FIRST regional, and no one has finished their idea. 6 weeks isn't enough time and every person in FIRST knows it :D Including that no one is finished, some teams simply lack the resources to finish their ideas. In comes the idea of gracious professionalism, where the larger and more resourceful team can help the smaller and less fortunate team(s). It's all a part of the community, and the mutual respect found in the community. Sports teams have it too, in the hand shakes you see to start and end most sports.

Looking back at my first and last sentences, I seem to have flown off on my own tangent. So I'll try and bring it back into focus. GP is one of the greatest parts of the FIRST community. That everyone's there to work hard, have fun, and help others work had and have fun is amazing. It can also get carried away, as Cody seems to have seen, and has certain people find themselves on a pedastal higher than everyone else. No, it's not right, and I agree with Cody fully in that matter. Everyone is their own person, and should be judged strictly according to each individual. If they happen to shine in a certain spotlight, awesome. But there's not a chance they're shining brighter than every other person in separate spotlights, and they shouldn't think that.

(hopefully someone'll understand my ramblings :D)

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Hard to believe your rookie year is 2006. Good stuff.
Jane

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

From what lofty platform are you able to view what other people's problems may be for you to correct? How do you determine that your solution for the problems you perceive them to have is correct?

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Porque? :)

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

To me, there is a lot of thought and wisdom in your post. The understanding of GP, the understanding of community and working with the traditional mindsets like athletics, helping them see that science and technology are valuable and exciting.

For some, myself included, it takes a couple of years for the FIRST concepts to sink in and make a difference. They are different concepts than the norm of our society. Helping your opponent repair their robot so that the competition is the best it can be. Providing resources as you mentioned. Sharing experience and knowledge.
That's what your post made me think about.
Jane

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Let me try to clarify this a bit before things get argumentative - giving assistance generally has the prerequisite of a request to help, to guide, to advise. Remember, suggested solutions are just that...suggestions. None of us can fix anybody else, but I think Tristan is suggesting that it's ok to provide constructive criticism even if you yourself have had problems in the same realm before.

In fact, in some cases, experience with a problem personally makes advice more valuable.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

For all of my years of being in FIRST, I have never thought that I was better than everyone else...

BUT, that is not to say I never thought of what sort of power I really have with hands and mind within reach of technology that could do some cool and/or really freaky things. Power in short, and though I think of this power constantly on a daily basis, a lot of self control and personal moral conviction keeps me silent and prevents me from doing anything near evil and hypocritical.

It is a fact that people take for granted all of the technological wonders of our society today.

It is also a fact that we as engineers, technicians, programmers, scientists, etc. etc. have a stake and will drive technological progress one way or another in the future. Inevitably what we do just might end up in the hands of millions of people.

And it is inevitable that once new technology falls into the hands of millions, the hard work and possible politics that helped get to that point will be forgotten and once again the technology is taken for granted.

Its a continuous cycle.

But is it really their fault?

To answer the question, we are no better than anyone else. People just grow up with different purposes. We serve them, they serve us, its all mutual. And if anyone has watched the "Red Green Show," one quote from there that is said every show rings very true: "We're all in this together." Whether your world is your small town, city, county, state, country, or the entire planet itself, each unit has people to do every needed task, and just like teams, they work together towards relative peace and well-being.

2 cents of some sense

-Joe

PS: and though previous postings of mine may lean on the side that we are morally superior, I do not believe I have ever said that nor maintained such a position. If I did, I hope this changes everything for the moment, because somedays I just get sick of the ignorance of some people (who doesn't?), and it gets to my head a bit some nights... :( (thanks to working at a department store...)

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

One of the realities of life that some people never accept is this: you cannot change people, you can only change yourself.

FIRST is not a program designed to change anyone into a better person, therefore whether people involved in FIRST are better or worse than some other group is irrelavant.

FIRST is designed to show people a path that will lead them to a successfull and rewarding career. Gracious professionalism is a part of that - its a way of interacting with other people that keeps things on a positive and productive level.

GP is not a blanket term that means "all things good and moral". The two words have a very specific meaning, and its not about morality or being good in an overall sense.

GP isnt something that you are, or are not - its something you do, that you chose to do, because the results of your actions are better than doing things another way (ranting or screaming at someone when they make a mistake for example).

If you are gracious and professional in your dealings with others, then a lot of work and progress can be accomplished. Things will run smoothly. If you are ungracious and unprofessional, things quickly come to a grinding halt, and insults and finger pointing ensues.

It has nothing to do with how good of a person you are. Its a learned behavior. The most rotten person on the face of the earth can use GP when interacting with other people, to get the results he is after.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

No one individual is better than any other individual. I am not perfect and neither is anyone else on this planet. Everyone is created equal and that is the way I look at it. I have the same oppurtunities as everyone else on the planet and they do to. There is a decision in everyone's life on whether to be a clown or not and that is thier decision, but it in no way shape or form affects me and my choices. I have never let someone tell me that they are better than me nor do I tell people that. GP is a step closer to being a better person and FIRST is not the only way to become a better person like alot of us think. I am not perfect at the GP theory but I plan to try harder just like all of us should to make FIRST an even better place to be around. Never did I say FIRST is perfect because it never will be but it is a good atmosphere to be involved with and I am proud to say I am a FIRSTer. :) :)

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Gold plate it and hang it on the wall. You rock, Josh.

Andy B.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

However, according to the FIRST website:

"FIRST ... aspires to transform culture, making science, math, engineering, and technology as cool for kids as sports are today."

Since people create culture, the only way to transform culture is to transform (change) people. Most societies recognize that the easiest people to change are the youth. This is why Dean Kamen invented a youth organization, not a professional society. He wants to change people.

In fact, as he has publicly stated, he has no children of his own. Instead, he regards FIRST as his children. That is, he regards himself as our father. What is one of the main jobs of a father? It is to mold (change) his children into the kind of adults he thinks they should be.

I think it is also abundantly evident that Dean regards science and technology as being more beneficial--that is, BETTER for society--than sports. Since this attitude is being actively promoted from the top down in FIRST, what are some ways we can avoid thinking--and projecting the attitude--that we are BETTER than others?

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Supposition 1: People are not all equal.
If people were equal, I'd be able to run a 4 minute mile. People would all be identical. Capitalism wouldn't work and communism actually would. There simply wouldn't be any competition because there wouldn't be any need for it.

Supposition 2: "Best" is relative.
Sally thinks peanut butter and jelly is the best sandwich in existance. Billy is allergic to peanuts. Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches aren't the best for Billy. In Sally's point of view, Billy is inferior because he doesn't eat the best sandwiches.

Supposition 3: People want what is best for themselves.
If I gave you a choice between a free house or a free cardboard box, you'd take the house wouldn't you? The house is more benificial to you. Even if you don't want a house, you could sell it, give it to someone who does, use it for storage, or do any number of other things with it. Whenever you have a choice, you're going to pick the option that gives you the best life.

I leave you with one question: If FIRST isn't the best, what are you doing here?

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Dean Kamen certainly does want to change society, change people, and change youth, but I don't look at it as a Hitler Youth type of thing (could be an extreme analogy and I know it isn't what you said, but it's the best example I could think of). He doesn't want to replace sports, but he wants to fix an imbalance in the popularity of sports and the popularity of science and engineering. He wants to help fix shortcomings of education in this country. What would really be better for society would be if these things were fixed, not if scientists and engineers are enthroned as the world's elite.

We can avoid projecting that attitude by simply trying to. I'd say we shoud look at everyone as equals and talk to people on the same level. We want students to join FIRST because it's one of many great programs and it's fun, but it isn't superior. As sciguy points out, there are different reasons for different people to join a certain program.

An idea I have to answer the question "how can we avoid thinking that..." is that if we focus on our goals, on being a part of FIRST, on having fun, and on making our teams better experiences, we can avoid focusing on comparing ourselves to others and on thinking that we're stronger and more successful.

Something can be the best for other reasons than how beneficial it is. FIRST is great for me because I love it. Granted, there might be other programs in the school that would be better for me and I would love more, but I don't know about them. Within my knowledge, the activities I participate in are the best because they're beneficial to me, I love them, I have friends in the activities...so on.

Enough of me talking; somehow my posts are always longer than everyone else's :o

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

While I am not fit to judge goodness, I do admire those who find and exhibit grace and are truly professional in all aspects of their lives, not just in public situations. I'd like to believe G.P. is more than putting on a face to do business; that it is the end rather than the means.

I hope G.P. is a tool that uses us, rather than the other way around.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

i think everyone is looking at this way too hard. the FIRST program is a community, i wouldnt consider equality as a major factor in a community this large. communisim will never work because of the fact that in society, people cannot quite grasp the concept of equality. i believe we should concentrate on opprotunity, because thats one reason we are all here. in a competition, equality would just be boring.

im not here to wage war... just throwing in my idea

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

To address Tim's question, it's first a matter of identifying that there's a problem. Can I perceive something as being a problem, while the person responsible for it sees nothing wrong? Of course; so it's implicit that I'm referring to my own opinion that a problem exists. Having decided that there's something wrong, I will consider that I may not be appropriately qualified to address it. Maybe I've got problems of my own that demand my immediate, undivided attention. If that's so, then so be it—maybe I can enlist other assistance, maybe I'll just decide to forget about it. But that's not an automatic choice.

So, when I do go ahead and offer assistance, it's because I think that I've got something of value to add. Now, if I've established that something is wrong, and further, that I can make a useful contribution, and that I'm not busy with something more important, isn't it a question of "why not assist"? I know, sometimes people want to be left alone in their misery—I can empathize with that. But on the other hand, if they're complaining about it on ChiefDelphi, or look like they're struggling with it in the pits, I'd have to say that it's a safe bet that they're open to the idea of assistance, in some form or another.

As an example, the fact that my car's oil pressure gauge fluctuates for reasons that I don't quite understand does not disqualify me from offering advice on oil pumps. Why? Because despite the apparent lack of competence, I'm actually quite experienced with how oil pumps work—the fact that I have an unresolved (yet related) problem of my own doesn't necessarily prohibit me from applying what knowledge I do have. This is the sort of thing that I take issue with—exemplified in Cody's statement that "[he] definitely won't correct someone else's problems until [he has] fixed all of [his] own". It's too dogmatic, too rigid, and seems to me to support the idea that only the learned masters with no gaps in their knowledge are qualified to make pronouncements about the way things ought to be. Sure, the assistance of a master might be great—but in the absence of such a person, isn't it better to rely on the experience of someone who's at least familiar with the problem, and despite some gaps of knowledge, has a good grasp of what's going on? And even in the presence of a master, it is inconceivable that I might still have something to add? After all, surely we can accept that other perspectives can lead to creative solutions.

Similarly, Genia's example of constructive criticism is quite appropriate. Again, someone who's had their own problems, or who is currently dealing with their own problems might be just the person to make an appropriate observation. If they hold their tongues, will their past mistakes be repeated in others' work? Learning from your own mistakes is good, but learning from someone else's is often better.

Also, if someone doesn't like my proposed solution to a problem, then they're usually under no obligation to follow it. I don't pretend to offer unilaterally correct advice; what I give is presented in good faith, and with some measure of competence, but with no warranty, express or implied.

I realize that imposing myself in a situation, and providing unwanted advice may not endear me to people in general. And for the most part, I would avoid this, to limit conflict. But in certain situations, such as when I'm performing the role of a robot inspector, I feel that it's more important to offer the advice, wanted or not, because it will simplify matters on the whole. On several occasions, I've walked past a pit, and noticed something amiss. Sometimes it was a rule violation, sometimes a safety hazard, sometimes a potential failure mode waiting to happen. Whatever it is, when I'm wearing the robot inspector hat (figuratively :) ), I can either deal with it then and there, and risk the ire of a team that didn't want to hear about it, or deal with it later, as the team undergoes their inspection and finds out that there's a problem, or when someone gets hurt. For everyone's sake, it's easier to find and fix the problem in advance, rather than hope that it will be discovered in time to prevent whatever calamity is imminent.

So, maybe that explains better what I couldn't really convey in the previous, shorter, post. It's not about promoting conflict, or an air of superiority; it's about efficiently solving problems in general, rather than limiting my efforts to only those problems which directly affect me. In so doing, it seems to me that I can make more effective use of my knowledge, and improve other peoples' experiences, rather than just my own.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Maybe I don't get exactly what this has turned into...

Nobody said that they didn't want to be in FIRST.

All I was originally trying to say can almost be summed up in one example:


Woodie Flowers is the most Graciously Professional guy that I know of, yet he doesn't go around letting every single person know how great he is; he doesn't act the way he does for recognition, He does it because it is the right thing to do.

When someone does something wrong, and then lets you know about it... you shouldn't yell at him because it will make you look better to others, you should quietly guide him in the right direction.

That being said, I have noticed a number of people posting NOT to help the person that is the focus of their post, but to be looked upon as more righteous themselves.
You can see this when someone reprimands someone else openly for doing something wrong, And then Thirty more people say the exact same thing. If it has already been said, then saying it again will only make the person who is the focus feel ganged up upon.
PMing him/her with what you have to say is much less publicly embarrassing to them, and unless you are only posting what you are to get recognition... you should have no problem with it.





NOTE: This thread IS NOT actually about the Soda being smuggled into an arena, but it is about an overall trend Ive been seeing.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

and interesting point, but you gotta start somewhere.

GP is most powerful when you practice it knowing that you dont feel like being gracious or professional right at this moment. If someone on your team screws up something important, at a critical point, you may feel like blowing up in their face, and telling them what an idiot they are, and how they have ruined everything for the whole team. Its perfectly normal to feel that way, and blowing up would be the normal human response.

But if you 'remember your training' and instead you tell yourself 'OK, mistakes and failures have occurred - we are all human - we all make mistakes - this person deserves to be treated with respect as a professional...' and you instead start dealing with the problem, instead of attacking the person

then all that energy gets focused on solving the problem, instead of spewing anger.

Does that change you on the inside? Will you not have the same tendency to want to explode the next time things go wrong? I gotta say no (from my own experience). When something goes wrong and you are blindsided when you are tired or overwhelmed you are still gonna have that knee-jerk reflex desire to blow up.

That is when you have to count to ten, and consciously choose to use GP to handle the situation. I think we have not changed on the inside, we have learned a better way. The underlying emotions and feelings will still always be there.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Yeah this dude is right. I've been reading this thread for like 5 minutes and it's just one big arguement.

SO ANYWAY...can one of you programmers out there somehow get me more sources on Limewire? It's driving me insane. come on now.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

To answer the question as asked:

We think we are better because that's how we become better.

Choose to think of yourself in a particular way, and you will act to match your expectations. "Being better" is a goal, and a very effective way to attain that goal is to behave as if you were already better.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

I know this thread is growing longer and longer like Rip Van Winkle's beard -
but I've been thinking about Cody's initial post and some afterwards and I have a story about one of my first mentors when I was a teenager. I did a search to see if I have posted this before and nothing came up.
keyword: wheel barrow
keyword: elephant dung

I think I'm safe in thinking that I have not posted this story.

My 9th grade science teacher was a woman who was in her early 50's. (I'm now older than she was at the time of this story. How about t-h-a-t!) She had a wonderful knot of hair that twisted and turned on the back of her head. It was a bun but she made it more like a Celtic knot. Because she could. I think she did it to give us a focus when she was turned to the board, writing.

I was not the most studious student or the brightest. I was average. But for some reason she saw something in me - as she did all of her students - :)
One day she came into the classroom with enormous bandages on both of her knees. I was very concerned because I could see seepage and knew it must be painful. When I asked, she responded that she had decided it was time to learn to ride the bicycle. It was something she had wanted to do and now was a good time. The road that she learned on was gravel and her husband had given her a wee bit too much of a push. Down she went on both knees, badly. She smiled and said she couldn't wait til the next weekend and she could try again.

We had a circus that would visit our town every spring. One day she said that she was going to the circus after school. With a smile she told me that the elephant trainers allowed her to load the elephant dung in her wheel barrow for her to take home to her garden. She had a large garden whose produce always won ribbons at the county fair. She claimed it was the elephant dung that she used in her garden each spring.

I was 15, a teenager and very shy. I had absolutely no idea how on earth I was ever going to be as creative or as funny or as charming as my science teacher but I decided she was my role model. Others have entered my life as I've grown but she was one of the major ones who has shaped and guided me all of these years and continues to. Maybe trying to be more like her when I was 15, 16, 17 - could have been seen as a stretch by my peers and adults around me. But it gave me a roadmap and a path, helping me form myself into the adult I wanted to be. I am not my science teacher but I think sometimes a glimpse of her humor pops out.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

I think the big thing that separates FIRST people from the rest of the world is our selflessness.

Dean Kamen created the FIRST organization, not to make money, but to advance humanity with no benefit to himself. Dean's spirit of the competition is shared with all of the FIRST teams who work to the bone for 6 weeks to be innovative, teach, and problem solve their way into the competition.

Unlike sport atheletes who compete for money, scholarships, and fame, FIRST atheletes only compete for themselves to carve out our technological future. Unlike musicians who compete for notoriety, glory, and contracting deals, FIRST specialists train their hands and their minds to familiarize themselves with engineering so that they can teach and provide engineering technologies in the future. Unlike race car drivers who are friends only with those people who are friends on the track, FIRST members stay friends and make friends on the competition grounds and off.

FIRST people may not be better than anyone else on the individual scale, but FIRST people share a degree of selflessness that is on a far higher level than the average people. There may not be anything other than the FIRST attitude and spirit that separates FIRST people from other people, but that attitude is what will carry our society into the future on the wings of technology and engineering, a future that we can be proud of founding even now while the spirit is still growing in our common culture.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

It's like a pack-a-day chain smoker telling his grandson to never start smoking, or a homeless person coming up to you on the streets telling you to stay in school and get an education. Both of the sources had their problems, and both are now suffering for the rest of their lives because of it. The only thing they are doing by offering advice is to save someone else from the same fate.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

FIRST is not here to correct our morals, and make us "better people". FIRST tries to spread science and technology, and create an atmosphere in which science and technology are common aspirations of the youth.
But, in order for FIRST to succeed in it's goal, it recquires growth. Growth in membership. Growth in teams. Growth in popularity. Growth in publicity. Growth in admiration. Growth in knowledge. Growth awareness. Growth in supporters. Etc etc etc.
In order to grow, FIRST must present a positive image. A portion of that image is a reflection of the behavior and characteristics of the membership of FIRST. So, in some extraordinarily winding and twisted way, FIRST, or rather those who want FIRST to suceed, must present a positive moral image.
A mother will not allow her child to participate in an activity known for it's vulgarity and depravity. A school would never support such an activity. I'm not saying we're perfect. I'm not saying we should be perfect, nor even strive for perfection. I'm just saying that we cannot be terrible.
Think of the NBA. The National Basketball Association was struggling with an image problem. It had the "brawl" between the Pacers and Pistons. It had one of it's superstars charged with sexual assault. The NBA commissioner, David Stern, tried to rehaul the image of his league. The dress code, etc, went into effect. No, the image isn't perfect. No, the NBA's record isn't pristine. But, yes, it was much much better this year.
Whether it was the direct cause of this thread or not, that Mountain Dew was, at least partially, the catalyst for the creation of this thread, at this time. The whole issue has been blown horribly out of proportion. "Smuggling" Mountain Dew into a convention will not scar FIRST's image, who cares. That's not a big deal. If they were smuggling drugs or a corpse or something, then let's talk.
FIRST's message is not to correct morals, but in some ways, it recquires at least decent morals to have its message spread. No, we are not "better people". No, we don't need to be. But we need to be "decent people". It is up to you whether being a decent person includes your efforts to help others "improve" themselves. Everything is in the eyes of the beholder.
This is my opinion, what Cody expressed was his. You must think for yourself, and make your own judgements about how to be a "good" human being. It is all personal preferance.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Sean said something like what I want to say, but since he took a different spin on it I'll go ahead and post mine.

FIRST was not founded to change our morals and make us into "better" people; that's been said in this thread numerous times. FIRST's primary purpose always has and always should be to inspire students to participate in a career in science and engineering. That is why teams are formed; that is the idea behind the whole program. That's why we are here.

Now, imagine you're a mentor on a rookie team back when the competition was just starting. You're donating all this time and energy to this program that has the potential to so greatly benefit the students. Are you going to only teach them about science and technology, just that and nothing else? Are you going to look the other way if the students for some reason act less-than-maturely or in a way that's distasteful, rude, disrespectful, or harmful? Mentors generally want to help their students learn and grow, and that really isn't contained simply in learning about the robot and growing in your mechanical or programming skills. If the mentors want to help the students grow in those areas, doesn't it often spill over into helping them grow as people? If you have one, chances are you have the other with it whether you realize it or not. That seems like a simple fact of the way FIRST mentors are: they want to see their students grow in every way possible.

To me, that seems like it's at least partly why FIRSTers are expected to be morally upright and generally good people. I did not say better people; I said good people. The FIRST community has created a mini-society where it's not acceptable to be rude, dishonest, or a number of other things. That doesn't mean the FIRST community is better than the rest of society and it doesn't mean those things don't still happen. Of course they do; it's part of human nature to be rude when events aren't going our way. But in FIRST more so than in many other groups, it's just plain less acceptable. It's more expected that you act in a graciously professional way.

In sports, you don't generally cut your opponent any slack, and that's expected and perfectly acceptable to pretty much everyone involved. In FIRST, you often see teams helping out teams that need it, knowing full well they'll be competing against each other later. You see teams who damaged an opponent's robot going over to offer to help fix it after the match. You see teams calling a timeout for an opponent during the finals of a regional, teams that are already down by one match. I was lucky enough to not only see that twice this year, but be on one of the two alliances involved both times, once on each end of it. At Chesapeake when it was first suggested that our alliance call our timeout for our opponent, I remember remarking to our driver that it was "the FIRST way to do it." I doubt you will see that in professional sports, because it's acceptable not to do so. That doesn't mean FIRST is better, but it IS different.

FIRST may not have started out to change the way people act, but it has come to symbolize it in a way for many people. Because it has evolved with the idea that Gracious Professionalism should be practiced in all situations, not because that's its purpose. We as a community are not better, we simply are how we are.

My $.02 (although I think that was at least a nickle's worth; I didn't mean for it to be so long... :o )

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

I take GP as kind of a zen thing. I just let that gracious professionalism flow out when it does, and just let it happen. When we become more worry free, we are less focused on ours and others' flaws, and are more focused on how to improve the things we hold valuable. I think trying too hard to be GP might make you look like a self-righteous prick, and not having any GP might make you look like, well, a regular prick.

The question I ask myself when I come across conflict is this:
"do i need to make a big deal out of this?"
Almost all the time, the answer is no, and I don't let anything get the better of me.

I never saw FIRST as a perfect community and never knew that anyone ever thought it was. Of course we are all humans who invest so much emotion in what we do, that sometimes we lose our composure, and act in ways that are not "FIRST-ish," like cheating, or being disrespectful. But it happens and it just needs to be accepted, and when we accept it, we can fix it.

As long as the FIRST community is majority human, and minority robot, you'll never have a perfect community.

I also never knew that FIRSTers ever considered themselves to be so high and mighty. Sure, we may be looking at the world's future innovators, but that doesn't make anyone more righteous. It's just a career path. FIRSTers aren't superheroes, deities, invincible, or perfect. We just have a lifestyle that is different than many others, we have different priorities, different things we value, and we should take pride in our accomplishments only if it is appropriate.

And different does not mean better. Perhaps I never noticed so much moral arrogance because I never had it myself, nor did I ever seek it out or looked for it. All I ever saw as a student and see now as a mentor is that I'm in a really cool program where we compete with robots and inspire students, where being considerate to others is kind of a default. Now, is that a difficult concept to grasp at all, or one that even implies that we think of ourselves as better? I think not.

The true problem here may just be an epidemic of "butthurt-itis maximus."
My cure: just chill the heck out, have fun, and let the GP flow.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Haha I didn't even notice the dates! I clicked on it from the posts that show up at the top of the chief delphi page. I thought it was recent, but apparently not! You and I should delete our posts before this thread gets active again and we open up a can of worms.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

Nothing wrong with getting some new perspectives on the subject. I know my perspectives have changed a bit since then.

Re: Why do we think we are better?
 

FIRST is like a bus. You ride it as far as you want. You can get on and get off whenever you want. There are people that you know on the bus and people that you don't want to know on the bus, but you still take the bus. FIRST is only a vehicle for getting us where we want to go. If you are a bus rider, that is a community that you belong to. You are the people on the bus.

Are there people on the bus you don't want to sit near? Of course. Are there loud and annoying people on the bus? Sure. Don't blame the bus for the riders on the bus.