Re: Poll - Legalities
 

I think the issue of food at the events is an interesting topic. In the US we believe in free enterprize and open markets. FIRST has set up events that unfortunately, depend partly on the sale of food to students and mentors to fund the event.

Personally I think that is a bad idea. I would rather see the regionals held in a HS gym, if I can get excellent food and inexpensive drinks and refreshments, than to have the event in a domed arena, if it means the only choice of nurishment I have is a $4 hotdog that is 4 hours away from becoming slop at a nearby hog farm!

When the food at a venue is so expensive and/or so bad that you have to make a rule preventing people from bringing in ANYTHING ELSE to eat or drink you are legislating a monopoly for people who should have been put out of business by the competition.

So this resulting rule - who is it there to protect? The students? the mentors? The team sponsors or parents who have to pay $2.50 for a glass of water with an ounce of corn syrup in it?

No, the rule was created to protect the interests of the vendors who are taking advantage of the thousands of hungry people who dont have the time or resources to leave the building to eat somewhere else.

Somehow taking advantage of hungy children just sounds SO wrong!

Re: Poll - Legalities
 

I'm no event planner, I'm willing to bet that the arena will get its money somehow. If they can't get it through their take of concession stand money, they'll get it through increased facility rental fees. Suddenly, regional organizers are paying more, which I assume isn't particularly good for regionals and their sometimes-strained budgets. Until FIRST is in a position to build thirty or forty arenas of their own, I view buying at the concession stand or making the hike up to campus as a necessary evil.

(Off-topic: would it be possible for FIRST to alter their no-external-food policy to allow food to be brought in after the concession stands close? The Dagnabbit-it's-one-hour-to-closing-and-we-still-have-five-pounds-to-lose-and-we're-starving Rule, anyone?)

Re: Poll - Legalities
 

I really am for obeying the rules and stuff (usually...) but I hate that food rule. Not to sound whiny, but I'm not a fan of the food that they have at competitions and I have to eat every few hours if I wish to stay conscious. Being busy in the pits and driving makes that hard.

Re: Poll - Legalities
 

but here's the thing - The last team I was on the sponsors and the school would only pay for certain things: registration fees? no problem

food for the students or mentors? no way! the students had to get food money from their parents, or sell candy or something to cover meals.

How ironic is that? Most student would rather have that $50 box of M&Ms they sold, than the food that they had to eat at some of the regionals (which they bought with the same money)!

Re: Poll - Legalities
 

I have heard that FIRST did inquire about not using the concession stands at some venues and I heard that they were to something like $7.50 - $10.00 per person per day to allow people to bring in their own food.

This is how it works at venues. The venue puts out tenders for concessions. The best bidder (ie the one that pays the most to the venue) wins the tender and has exclusive rights to provide food at the venue. When FIRST goes to rent the venue they have no say with the concessions.

Re: Poll - Legalities
 

and so now we have this problem at some regionals - and this nasty rule that goes along with it

with the collective genius of the FIRST community its a problem that is too hard for us to solve?

Re: Poll - Legalities
 

Which is why I find myself never following this rule. It's not FIRST's fault, it just comes with the venue. The food doesn't support FIRST it supports the vendors.

If buying food and bringing it into an arena results in a team saving enough money to actually come and participate in a Regional, then I say do it. Situations might be nice for some teams, but others have to find a way to save money with the entry fees, hotel costs, travel costs, etc. It's hard to cut corners on the other things, so I can easily see this rule being broken in order for a team to have the money to do the rest.

I will never pay three dollars for a bottle of Coke if I can get one down the street for a dollar. 1 buck vs. 3 dollars - seems pretty clear to me.

Re: Poll - Legalities
 

This sub-topic on the no-outside-food rule (Section 7.12 in the 2007 Manual) is worthy of its own thread.

Can one of our esteemed mods please make it so? Maybe just split the last few posts off to get the thread started?

Re: Poll - Legalities
 

Team 1902 Exploding Bacon solved this problem by having one of the mentors/moms go out and get food every day and we all had a picnic in front of the arena. We also kept a cooler of drinks out in the car, and while I admit that in Atlanta it was quite a hike every day from the van to the picnic tables it sure cut down on costs. Didnt have to break a rule, got better food, cheaper price. it was win- win all the way.

Re: Poll - Legalities
 

The going out for lunch option. But if FIRST is saying the Venue is saying that 5000 people buying those junky hotdogs is whats paying for the arena

then if everyone went out for lunch they would lose money, and we would not be welcomed back next year.

If the venue really costs $10 more per person, then we should come up with that money some other way, or take our regionals to a different type of venue. Passing the cost on to the students in the form of expensive bad food, not enough food, and still being dehydrated for 3 days... is not the answer.

I know this has gone way off topic of the thread, but its an excellent example of 'WE HAVE A RULE' - 'ITS OUR POLICY'

and people feeling obliged to blindly follow it, being made to feel guilty if they dont.

When people create rules that are only in their best interest, rules that take advantage of others, are we obliged to follow them?

Re: Poll - Legalities
 

Personally I realize that the facts of the venue are the facts, but in the case that the venue's concession vendors were gone 4 hours ago, Im sorry that is just rediculous. If they really wanted to make money, they would have stayed open.

We tried this in Boston, unfortunately, at one point I walked into the pits to see the mechanical crew waiting for the electrical to get back from lunch... I relieved them so they could go eat, only to realize that now the entire drive team & pitcrew were missing (off trying to find food that didnt cost an arm and a leg) and we had to wire up a motor with a match in 15 minutes. I got that motor wired, but I was fuming that it was so difficult to adequately feed our team. I ate two hours later.

(Steve, sorry for diverting the topic!! But its one of the rules that I absolutely hate, and cant tell FIRSTers to uphold).

Re: Poll - Legalities
 

I follow the rules about the food thing because being a driver you don't really get a chance to eat, so I either just eat there or wait until I leave the competition and get food later. The rules are there for various reasons that I can not explain because I don't make them, but I do follow them because it is in the best interest for my team its sponsors and FIRST. That is one of the main reasons to follow the rules. :)

Re: Poll - Legalities
 

The food rule is just one of those rules that we'll have to try and change, in the places that we can. Meanwhile, we'll just have to do our best to respect the rules, wishes, guidelines, whatever they are that come from the people running the venue. That means that one might have to forego a chance to save a little money but is still forgiven for bringing water to a competition when they really need to.

I don't want to start saying that we can say there are different kinds of rules, and some are not OK to break and some are (aside from the "unjust law" part of it). But...forgiveness for bringing water is one thing, and I don't think someone should be forgiven for passing the robot weight limit, breaking major restrictions on parts, or, I don't know, dealing illegal drugs.

I'm also thinking about TSA competitions, where there's a strict, very reasonable rule about guys not being in girls' rooms and vice versa when an adult isn't there. Every year people in my chapter break the rule (ssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!) because we aren't doing anything IN the rooms that we aren't supposed to be doing, we're in groups instead of just one guy and one girl, and we're just hanging out. The teachers don't find out, so what harm does it do? It's pretty hard to find a reason not to break the rule.

At the same time, wouldn't everyone agree that cheating on a test or plagiarizing or doing something illegal to the robot is NOT OK even when nobody finds out?

I don't think we can accept that "it's OK to break rules, sometimes," at least not while acknowledging it.

So it seems that an individual might judge by themself whether or not breaking a given rule is OK. The poll itself asks whether we think it's ok to break a rule if no one knows, but doesn't ask when it is and isn't ok. I want to ask: Considering that there are certain situations when an individual would judge that it's either necessary to break a rule or ok to break a rule in secret, some people say that they would break a rule; can it be justified that some people say there are cases in which they would break a rule in secret?

EDIT: Sorry, that post could have been much more concise.

EDIT: My post continues from this thread but was then moved over here. (I wouldn't mind if it could be moved back but it isn't a big deal)

Re: Bringing Food into Competition Venues
 

I split these posts from the Legalities thread because the discussion focuses a single rule and may lead to ideas as to how we might best amend such rule to be beneficial to both the venues and teams.

Re: Bringing Food into Competition Venues
 

I have absolutely no problem breaking this rule. With all the power and masterminds behind FIRST, I cannot believe that we have had to endure this no food nonsense for so many years. I say no more!

If anyone asks, "I have a special diet that does not allow me to eat this junk, I have a special phobia that requires me to eat at establishments inspected and certified by the county health department, and I have a special wallet that does not open for people anxious to rip off young high school students who are trying their hardest to become the next leaders of this country and world."

and if that doesn't work "I can make a big scene right here right now but neither of us want that right?"

And if that doesn't work, fake into passing out on the floor.

But I totally agree with you Ken, it is just so wrong. Like charging for parking too. I just tell them I'm a volunteer and they let me in free. :)