USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

A device that converts the operator interface 15pin joystick ports, into a USB host, now exists. The device is called USB_chicklet. Check it out at www.crosstheroadelectronics.com. Also please provide feedback about our new website.

Re: USB Joystick adaptor is here!
 

Does it comply with the rules regarding no external power sources? I know a team last year developed a PlayStation 2 converter that powered its PIC off the LED feeds on the OI, but does this? There are no up-close photos or detailed descriptions...

Re: USB Joystick adaptor is here!
 

There is an up-close photo. It's just scaled down on the page. Viewing it at full size clearly shows a power input jack at the corner.

I won't guess about whether or not the OI alone can provide enough power to run a typical USB joystick along with the adapter.

Re: USB Joystick adaptor is here!
 

I think I just might go out on a limb and openly praise a Copioli ;)
Dude, this rocks ... and I'm sure if it is being produced by Mike and Omar that they are doing what it takes to make sure it's FIRST legal.

Re: USB Joystick adaptor is here!
 

I would be willing to put money on the fact that this would be legal. If my assumption is correct this website/company is an offshoot of a thunder chickens project from last year (The autonomous SD card reader). It will be interesting to see how these things are implemented this year. Welcome to the AndyMark for electronics.

Re: USB Joystick adaptor is here!
 

So now our programmer won't have to have someone hold his ankles as he leans over the wall surrounding the arena floor to download the new program?*

AWESOME!

Probably a formality, but does Cross the Road meet all the requirements as a supplier (federal tax ID, enough supply, etc.)? As good as these products seem, it'd be a shame for them not to get used because of a paperwork issue.

*Yes, this has more or less been the case in the past--at Palmetto on Thursday, our programmer had a new autonomous for us to try. We were already queued up for the match, so he caught our attention, threw over the program cable, and downloaded the new program while we shuffled closer to the field. Fortunately, the wall isn't too high, only three feet or so. I'm kidding about holding onto ankles--perhaps I should've gotten more sleep last night. >_<

Re: USB Joystick adaptor is here!
 

AWESOME!


Yes. Cross The Road Electronics is a registered LLC. Although USB is not, this Application is new. It is the first of it's kind. This makes parts difficult to obtain in large quantities. At this time we are able to produce 400 of these devices. In 6 months we will be able to produce much larger quantities. These devices will be available to FIRST teams for the 2007 season.

Re: USB Joystick adaptor is here!
 

The board looks good. Couple of questions I'm sure others are also wondering about: how does it mount; e.g., what's on the reverse side ? and what is the power consumption ?

The site looks good. When do you anticipate replacing some of the lorem ipsum with real information?

Re: USB Joystick adaptor is here!
 

The board looks good. Couple of questions I'm sure others are also wondering about: how does it mount; e.g., what's on the reverse side ? and what is the power consumption ?

Yah, I know, I'm working on it now. I'm getting the forum linked right now.

It mounts directly to the DB15 port connection. It uses about 200mA. But the standard for a USB Host is 500mA. So it must be able to provide 500mA to meet the Hosting standard. Although this is not necessary to operate most HID devices, it is the standard.

Re: USB Joystick adaptor is here!
 

Note that some USB joy sticks use optical encoders not pots. That coupled with the USB chips may make the power supply issue a problem. May be it's time for first to relax the rules on this issue. Also note that with out the operating system driver some joy sticks are terrible.

Re: USB Joystick adaptor is here!
 

This will not be an issue.

Re: USB Joystick adaptor is here!
 

This is SOOOO awesome. I have a ton of applications for this.

Can anyone tell me what it might cost, when and where exactly I can get one?

-Q

Re: USB Joystick adaptor is here!
 

CONGRATULATIONS...this is something that FIRST definitely needed, i wish you all the best of luck with your business venture.


theres no price there yet, but they should be available on this website in november

Re: USB Joystick adaptor is here!
 

Congratulations, Mike! Just what we needed.
Al

Re: USB Joystick adaptor is here!
 

Thanks Al.

Re: USB Joystick adaptor is here!
 

Very nice Mike. What it says in my title applies to more than one person in your family. :)

Re: USB Joystick adaptor is here!
 

This product was created by Omar Zrien and myself. I cannot accept sole credit for it's creation. And don't get to excited. You have not seen the price yet.

Re: USB Joystick adaptor is here!
 

Would this price be in the few hundred range, or thousand-plus range?

Re: USB Joystick adaptor is here!
 

I thought you were going to give them away to your friends. Wink, Wink, Nod, Nod.

Re: USB Joystick adaptor is here!
 

I read it as one of two ways:

1) It's gonna be pricey, given the rather short runs that come with a FIRST-oriented product these days.

2) FIRST knows about these items, is planning on introducing them to the KoP for 2007, and CtRE will sell more (and spares) to teams, similar to the way that almost everyone places an order with IFI shortly after Kickoff for more Victors. (Could this also mean the return of the CH Flightstick to the kit?)

Re: USB Joystick adaptor is here!
 

All I can say is THANK YOU!

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!

Re: USB Joystick adaptor is here!
 

None of the above.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

less than $100?
/forest


btw i hope to get some for the green team....

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

I want 2 . . mabe 3 . . dont know just yet.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

:ahh:
Consider yourself emailed, Mr. Copioli.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

These... Are... Awesome...

I was planning on working with some teamates rewiring xbox controllers into pure analog and digital. I liked the idea of xbox controllers, but didn't like the idea that they would be heavily modified and would be difficult to replace. This solves that problem.

Also, that usb/sd card for changing code is awesome.

Re: USB Joystick adaptor is here!
 

It varies based on the layout of the stick, although with the number of channels available in HID, I'd think it's not a problem.

Can you configure how it maps the 30+ (?) analog/digital channels in HID to the 4&4 on the OI?

Is the power jack compatible with common battery packs?

Do we have any idea if FIRST will allow an externally-powered device?

Re: USB Joystick adaptor is here!
 

From the photo it looks to be compatible with a wall mounted power supply; e.g., Digikey T313-P13P-ND (5V, 550mA, $4.85) or similar. The 5V connector appears to be a 1.7mm receptacle with center positive. Mike, please correct this if I'm wrong about the connector.

Whatever the connector, you should be able to get one easily and fit it to whatever you want to use to power the USB device and the Chicklet.

The more important question on changing <R78> remains to be answered:It would not be sensible to simply delete the rule; to minimize hazards FIRST will probably want to restrict the type of external power supply allowed. Or maybe they'll just keep the "power-passive" requirement as it has been.

Obviously I'm just speculating here -- if anyone has actual knowledge of FIRST's intentions, they probably should keep it quiet until kickoff.

Re: USB Joystick adaptor is here!
 

The Chicklet is a USB host. Without diving deep into USB protocol, I will say that it will support ALL device functionallity. However one must understand that the device is broken down into two major sections.

1. The USB hosting section

2. The analog/digital interface section

The O/I port consists of 4 digital and 4 analog channels. Apply math and anyone can conclude that it is not possible to interface more than 4 digital I/O if all four analog channels are being used. This is a limitaion of the O/I not the Chicklet itself. However if one were to use a USB joystick, or any other device with only 2 analog channels, the interface can support up to 10 digital I/O's.

Re: USB Joystick adaptor is here!
 

The connector is a 2.1mm center positive. The supply is included with the device.

This is the important question indeed. We are working to find a way to power it off of the O/I. A possibility is powering it from the competition port.
As far as the rule is concerned, I am not even going to begin to speculate weather or not FIRST will change this rule. I will say that it would be dissapointing to not be able to use this technology because of a rule that was created before it existed. We were aware of the necessity of a rule change prior to developing the device. That is the risk you take in bussiness I guess this is similar to what Dean Kamen must have gone through when he created the segway. I know some City's don't allow segways on the streets or sidwalk's. It is a shame to see such technology get restricted.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

My guys on our geekTeam did the PS2 controller last year. They got it "working" by using the comp port. However, I used the word "working" because they only got SOME functions working. They couldn't power some functions on the PS2. Still useable, but not perfect.

OK - point of the post - They could have gotten all functions working had they been able to use an external power source. They talked to the IFI guys for a long time about this. We never did use an external power source, of course, because it was against the rules. But it sure would be nice.

Now forget the rules for a second - this is still a GREAT (WICKED GREAT) way to get younger kids and regular people interested in your robot in demos. Hand them a big control board with switches and joy sticks, and they don't get it. Hand them a game controller, and WHAM - they pick it up right away and become interested much quicker. It's amazing how useful it is for demos.

I'll keep my fingers crossed!

Re: USB Joystick adaptor is here!
 

Thanks for the correction on the connector size.<R79> appears to preclude that option:I had no part in drafting <R79> or any other rule; however, the intent seems clear to me. FIRST wants to ensure that the O/I responds correctly to the competition port. Correct response is critical to safety on the field.

So as I see it the question is, can FIRST ensure safety on the field while allowing externally powered devices connected to the O/I joystick ports? Maybe their answer is no. Or maybe it is yes, but only for pre-approved devices; i.e., not for custom circuits that are presented for inspection at an event, but maybe for circuits that have been pre-approved through some kind of advance review and inspection. Clearly the O/I itself had to be evaluated and approved, so why not another device?

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

I don't know if it's any better from a safety/hazard standpoint, but instead of hooking up to a power outlet that FIRST would provide, a team could make a battery powered option that plugs into the device it is powering.
HOT used the 222's plans to make a battery power source to run the whole OI, for public events, using a small rechargeable pack.

Re: USB Joystick adaptor is here!
 

So as I see it the question is, can FIRST ensure safety on the field while allowing externally powered devices connected to the O/I joystick ports? Maybe their answer is no. Or maybe it is yes[/quote]


The answer, I believe is yes. Of course I'm biased... Actually pulling power from the comp port should not be a saftey issue. The robot's are disabled via the mode bits. I believe, not certain, that the E-stop kills power to the O/I. With these saftey features already in place there is no reason, other than the rules, that pulling power form the comp port, would be unsafe. I agree that custom circuits should not be allowed use external power sources.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

Another key point is that no matter how much power is put into the O/I joystick ports, if the O/I is disabled the robot is disabled.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

This was the plan if external power was not available. However I'm sure a lot of matches will go poorly due to dead batteries. I see the battery pack as another failure point therfore I do not think it is the way to go. I can not remember how many times I wanted to scream at the camera because of a dead back-up battery.

Yes I know about the jumper for 12v. We used 12v on the practice bot but not the comp bot.

BTW I am writing this inbetween programming Chicklets...Programmers note the time......LOL

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

IFI personel have a battery pack with an adpater that plugs into the OI power plug. That's all you need. We were able to get enough power from the OI when the OI was plugged into a power source. We were very close to the edge of having enough power when the OI was powered off the competition port.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

Where were you pulling power from? I assume the joyport LED outputs. If that is the case, there is no way the O/I can provide enough power for the Chicklet, and the USB device. 200+mA up to a MAX of 500mA. The LED drivers are current limited to 10mA each. The Chicklet will require more than what the joyport can provide regardless of the source.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

Sorry - I didn't mean the chicklet - I ment the PS2 controller. But what I was getting at is the use of external power for the OI. We couldn't use external power for the OI, let alone power NOT piped through the OI.

But I'll keep my fingers crossed for next year.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

well dont kow if we can use this..." usb to a 15 pin device" found it in ebay and came up with this eventhough its sold in uk im sure we can get it here in the US

http://cgi.ebay.com/USB-to-15-Pin-Jo...QQcmdZViewItem

they show the specs in the bottom and im sure u guys can figure out how to impiment it to use in the first controller. It also doesnt require any programing so it should work fine and no external power source.

Note* sorry for the bad grammer :) and as u see i was an animator and have no idea what to do with this electronic stuff ;)

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

like WOW the usb chicklet is supposed to be a usb MASTER and read the data off the XY sticks and buttons on ur controller and probably have a few DACs to output the various signals?
but wait, the selection of USB joysticks should be limited right? not all can be used, especially those which have specialised drivers which come with them. Well one interesting thing is that X-Box controllers are supported! :ahh: so... some fun coming up soon i see?
Probably takes some time for this to be approved for FIRST i think :D

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

They contradict themselves - or maybe that's the way the Brits see it? I'm sure it goes the wrong direction. Otherwise, it'd need power.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

Sorry, that's backwards for our needs. It's for connecting old-style analog joysticks to a computer having a USB port. What we need for an IFI control system -- and what this thread is discussing -- goes the other way.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

Actually, thanks to a standard (USB human interface device class) most any controlling device should work with the USB Chicklet. The only problem would be how the chicklet chooses to map all of the possible channels in an HID device to it's limited number of channels, but the standard does exist. "Proprietary drivers" are often required for unusual functions that require an extension of the standard, and those 'extras' wouldn't work with the chicklet.

But have no fear, the selection of usable joysticks won't be extremely limited thanks to standards! Yay standards!

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

;) cool thanks for the snipplet of info.. on a sidenote, for those who want to make their own controllers and are having a bad time figuring out how to turn digital signals into an analogue 0-5V without an ADC, they can probably try a PIC18F4550 usb-integrated microcontroller which can be configured to behave as a USB HID device. So going by HID specs, you'll just need to translate whatever sensors you're using and output the necessary variables, letting the USB chicklet do the DAC conversion :D
yes I realise this is going a large round to solve a simple problem, but PIC-inclined programmers may find this easier instead :yikes:

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

You are correct. The Chicklet will support ANY HID device. The only limitation is what we (CTRE) introduce. You are also correct in your statement about mapping the inputs. However we have solved this issue by implementing functionality that allows the USER to select the configuration of the game pad and x-box controller. The logitech game pad, for example. The user will be able to select from one of two modes.

Mode 1: 4 digital buttons selectable by the user and 4 analog axis(x,y & x,y)

Mode 2: 12 digital channels and 2 analog axis (y,y)

Also, any device that is not yet supported can be added.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

wow.. correct me if im wrong, you're the designer for all the products on the website?

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

No. All of our products our designed by Omar and myself.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

i see.. very impressed by the two products there :cool:

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

I think this is the compliment of what we want. If I understand this correctly this device allows folks to provide a 15 Pin gameport to a PC by plugging it into a USB port on their PC.

We want/need something that allows a USB gamepad to be plugged into a 15Pin gamepad port.

Joe J.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

Very cool... ...very clever too.

My memory is a bit rusty, but I think that each joystick port on the OI only has 4 switches and 2 analog channels. How do you get 4 analog channels (in mode 1) or 12 digital channels (in mode 2) plumbed to the OI? You must have an adaptor/harness???

Joe J.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

I'm not sure about the OI (never used full size RC before, only miniRC), but the joystick port supports a max of 4 analogs and 4 digitals, mode 1 should be possible.
Maybe mode 2 turns the 4 analogs into 8 digital inputs via multiplexing each digital input into 4 respective analog levels? :ahh: :yikes:

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

The O/I has 4 analog channels/port. We use the extra two analog channels as digital when they are not used for analog.

BTW

Congrats on your recent TV appearance.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

How about mode 2?

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

Yes, you are correct. I have really been out of things too long.

As to Mode2, where you send the 12 buttons. Do you send them via the analog channels, where different ranges imply different button combinations for example
0-15: 0000 0000 0000
16-31: 0000 0000 0001
32-47: 0000 0000 0010
48-63: 0000 0000 0011
etc.

If this is true then you don't use the switch inputs or the LED outputs.

If this is correct, can I propose 2 more modes?

mode 3:
LED outputs used by the RC to multiplex between mode1 and mode2

mode 4:
every other data packet switch between mode1 data & mode2 data with the switch inputs used to tell the RC which type of data to expect*

Finally, you don't discuss the POV data. The POV button is a very nice way to drive robots in many cases. From a Windows application, the data is returned as 0, 45, 90, 135, 180, 225, 270, 315 but as a practical matter, the POV data is really just 4 more switch inputs that are mapped to these 8 pionts of the compass. Any chance you can map these 4 switches to give access to that data too**?

Think about it.

Joe J.

*This may run into problems with aliasing since you can't sync with the IO packet sending. perhaps it would be better to send 2 packets in mode1 and 2 in mode2 or maybe even randomly switching, within limits. Also, there is another possible problem with this if the OI does not synchronize the reading of the OI switches with the reading of the analog ports, but the ability to have all the switches and both X-Y data on the thumb would be great.

**note that if you can use 16 bits per range on the analog inputs, then you have room for 16 swithches with a 255 bit resolution on the ADC on the OI -- I am not sure but I think that the ADC on the OI is still just 8 bits. It seems feasible.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

The POV "hat" switch on the white A/B joysticks is connected to the "wheel" input. It's just a few resistors wired to the switches to give testable values on the analog input.

It sounds to me like the Chicklet's Mode 2 turns four digital inputs into an analog value on the "wheel" input -- perfect for a POV switch -- and another four digital inputs into an analog value on the "aux" input.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

Dr. Joe,

The joystick interface does consist of 4 analog and 4 digital channels. We had intended to have 4 possible modes for gamepads with two analog sticks,

mode 0 - axis 1 XY, axis 2 XY - 4 channels used
mode 1 - axis 1 XY only - 2 channels used
mode 2 - axis 2 XY only - 2 channels used
mode 3 - axis 1 Y, axis 2 Y - 2 channels used

And you are correct in saying we can use the unused channels for digital values! In fact we intended to use the upper nibble of unused analog channels precisly to send digital button info. We're only using the upper nibble (MSb 4 bits) due to possible jitter in the analog transmission, 4 bits is overkill we know and we may change that to support more digital support.

So lets say a,b,x,y (XBOX controller) are decoded in one of the analog channels. And lets say a and x are pressed and b and y are not.
The data transmitted would be binary : 1010 1000 or 168(decimal).
the 1010 would be a-press,b-not,x-press,y-not.
the lower 1000 is ignored by the application. Since we can't ensure that a value of n won't be read as n-1 or n+1 on the OI side the lower nibble is set to the middle of the value range. This uncertainty is do to the jitter in the OI side.

The POV will be decoded as 4 buttons. I grew up on SEGA, there's no way we're not supporting this. The only trick would to implement application code to recognize up and left pressed together as up/left, which shouldn't be hard for most teams.

So the intended use we designed for was so that through a simple calibration mode you can set the number of analog channels and which axises to use (mode 0-3). This selection would determine the number of digital slots available, in which case the next step of calibration would be to pick which buttons you want to be included in the digital transmission, we were thinking of having an led blink the number of digital slots available(4 or 12). And to select a POV button you can simply press one of the POV buttons.

So somehow the user would enable calibration mode, i.e. jumper and power recycle perhaps

1) Choose which axis profile, either using lcd outputs from controller (which is a FANTASTIC idea) or maybe number of button presses.

2) Observe led blinks to see how many digital buttons you can have.

3) press the buttons you want decoded (max 4 or 12 depending on axis selection).

4) leave calibration mode and PLAY.

Settings are saved in EEPROM so you never have to do this again.

Now this IS NOT SET IN STONE. We could use the lcd outputs to select axis mode during runtime or better yet allow us to transmit 4 times the data through indexing. My only concern is that we don't make this so complicated that only veteran teams use this.

Omar Zrien
Cross The Road Electronics

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

I know it would be more work for you guys, but you may want to consider the option of hooking the thing up to a PC to set up the parameters. I suppose you have a serial port that you could use (though perhaps not RS-232 voltage levels?). If so, it would be pretty easy to make a set of menus folks could navigate using hyperterminal (or whatever your favorite terminal program is). Just a thought.

As to keeping the thing easy so rookies can use it, almost every team modifies the default code somewhat. I think you could pretty easily have them cut and paste code snippets without loosing too many of them.

Just one man's opinion.

Joe J.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

Sorry to get off the great technical discussion going on, but is there any chance any crosstheroadelectronics products will be at the Ford First Invitational to take a look at?

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

You can count on it. They may not be fully functional, as we are still fine tuning. But they will be there.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

Whe will we be able to get it online? I keep checking the website to make sure its not a dream. Is there a date of release? When can we buy it? We have been waiting for something like this for a long time!! Thanks!!

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

Any new word on the USB-Chicklet? The website says they will be available in November 2006 which has come and gone with no news on pricing or availability. I hope these are not vaporware or some cruel joke just to get our hopes up! I eagerly await the product release and bet many others do as well.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

Hey the website has been updated! The price is now set at $99 and they will be available in January! No button to pre-order yet though.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

Woha! Oh so cool. I think the question on everyone's mind is if FIRST will let them in due to the power usage. I am inclined to say yes, but I am not willing to put $100 on that and I don't think many other teams would as well. I wish FIRST could make an early decision so we all know...

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

I think its a hint that the OI has been revamped!

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

If they were going to revamp the OI it would probably have this built in. I seriously doubt the OI has been changed. I honestly think they are just hoping FIRST will say ok.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

It seems that you are correct, as far as the legality of the product goes:

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

Why am I always the last to hear about such things. Anyways if the product is great and it is found to be FIRST-efficient, than they can expect buisness from 90% of FIRST teams in my opinion because there is atleast one student on EVERY team that thinks their joystick is the best. :)

Pavan.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

If these turn out to be FRC legal, we'll be buying them ASAP. We're down to our last 3 CH flightsticks (currently on our 06 controls, which we'd like not to pilfer from for 07). We broke 3 last year, and can't find any except those ugly gray base ones. It's a shame we stopped getting those joysticks in the kit. They're amazing.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

If they are not legal this year and teams are stuck with the game port interface, look at the CH industrial joy sticks. they have good feel and can be ordered with First required pots. I've used some portable lifting devices that use these joysticks and the feel is very good. Much better than the kit joy sticks. Couldn't the usb adapter use a super cap to supply power? The OI is powered for some time before the joysticks are actively used.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

hopefully first will just break down and give us USB. :)

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

Honestly making an Xbox360 controller work on the current system isn't very hard. They have 10k pots in them you just need to scale the output. GameCube and PS2 controllers also have 10k pots.

You just have to cut the traces to the pots and solder directly to them. Thats about it.

Obviously a plug and play solution would make life easier. If your controller breaks you can goto Circuit City and get a replacement.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

Just tell me when you get a Wiimote talking to the OI.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

It's not quite that simple. The O/I is measuring the current through the analog inputs, not voltage. Simply soldering the 10k pots to a connector will give you limited range. Approximately %10 of the expected range(100k). Not to mention the O/I will never see analog value 127. The correct way to adjust for this is to create a voltage divider using the 5v aux as the input to the divider. You would divide the voltage down to apx. %10 of 5v (500mv).

Lets compare:

5v/100k = 50uA

.5v/10K = 50uA

As you can see from the math above, this is the only way to "trick" the O/I into seeing a 100k range of resistance. If you do not do this, the O/I will see a value of 229 at 10k. As the resistance decreases the value will increase. so your range will be 229-254.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

I'm pretty sure most teams would be OK with being somewhere between Division by Zero and Cheesy Poofs! ;)

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

LOL

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

You are correct Mike the OI does see a limited value from the controller. We wrote software to translate the variations into "steps" 5 to - 5 and this works fine, this is what we used on our 2006 robot that used to play the whole 2006 on and off season. You are also right about 127 had to program the code so that when it read 127 (unplugged) to send neutral to the motors. Otherwise the robot would take off when the controller was unplugged.

Mike,

The big question is are you working with FIRST/IFI to get your adapter legal
for competition? If you are working with them have they been receptive to
the idea?

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

I guess you don't really need the full 127 step range. Our team only uses two anyway. Go and Stop.

Hey, what kind of answer did you expect from a hardware guy. lol



We have been working with IFI. They have been very helpfull. I do not have an answer for you as far as legality.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

Ok, We have updated our user manual. It should be available for viewing tommorow by clicking the tutorials link. The pdf contains an explaination of USB-chicklet, directions for it's use and a list of supported devices. Please let us know if you have any comments or suggestions for improvement. Also available for viewing is a FAQ.

Thank you,

Mike Copioli
CTRE Hardware Engineer/Developer
Team #217 The Thunder Chickens

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

Hm...
Why is it so expansive?
For an Israeli team each one of those devices will coast about 200$...thats very expansive for such a thing...

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

The device is price is determined by the folowing factors:

1. Cost of the components to manufacture each device.

2. Availablitity of the components necessary to build the device.

3. Total quantity produced

4. Time and money spent on research and development

This is a complicated and unique device. It will allow you to use devices like the X-box controller, wireless and wired Logitech gamepads, The Logitech steering wheel, and numerous USB joysticks. Nothing else like it exists. Now having made that statement, I know someone will try to compare it to similar devices. When doing this one must consider the following:

1. This is an Embedded USB hosting device. That means it does not require an operating system like Windows or Linix.

2. This is not the same thing as a USB to Serial adapter. Serial adapters are not USB hosts. Devices are much less complicated than a Host and require less hardware to build. Yet they are still about 40-50 USD.

3. It performs all of the USB host negotiating and data transfer and then converts it to analog and digital information that is directly connected to the IFI operator interface.

We have determined a price that we feel is fair and consistant with the products ability and functionallity. There are good reasons this technology has not existed until now.

Think about what it costs to go to a concert, or dinnner at a nice restraunt. In comparison, the cost of this device is not unreasonable.

Thank you,

Mike Copioli

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

Mike, do you know what the availability of this chicklet will be? (will there be enough for at least one per team?)

thanks,
/dan

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

I really dont think the demand will be that high. We will see though.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

It would be pretty cool if they were included in the kit of parts, but that would be a rather expensive item to add. It might be worth it though, because then you could open up a whole new range of ways to control the robots.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

$130 x 1000. Yeah thats quite a bit of money. FIRST wants to get the most bang for the buck. I dont think theres a major issue with what is out there for controls now to need the extra cost. However, if FIRST would do this i doubt they would but from this company. Instead I would think IFI would design something and make it internal on the OI.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

Is it possible to run multiple joysticks through a USB hub using only one unit?

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

I really don't foresee that happening.

The reason being is the current system is extremely easy wire, for teams that want custom controls. By going USB for OI controls, teams would have to either rip apart off the shelf controllers or program their own HID compliant chip. For 95% of the teams the current system works very well. Mike's device fills a need, it would be nice to see it streamlined into a nice case and pull power from the OI.

I just hope this device convinces IFI to allow for externally powered control interfaces. So we can can use the Wii remote to drive the robot this year :D .

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

At first I was like well Ill just wire it off the OI and then I realized that you cant use wireless (a had a bluetooth board designed to interface with the robot) and so you would have a wiimote with wires all going to the OI. While its cool because its the wiimote, you might as well just custom design something that will work better for what we need. :(

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

Yeah, I was just thinking that, the Wii remote isn't as cool wired. But, a rumble ch flight stick would be cool or a force feed back driving wheel.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

Cool idea. Rip out the rumble motor of any joystick that has once and mount it inside your joystick. I think most probably run off 5v.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

Why would you think this?

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

Nothing against your company I just think FIRST would look to find the same idea but cheaper cost. Also it would mean that they would have to know you would have staff to support any sort of question regarding the product that anyone might have. Dont get me wrong though, Im not trying to bash your product. I think its a great peice that would be usefull to anyone who has one, I just dont see FIRST putting them in the kit.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

The Chicklet only supports HID. It does not support HUB. We have a solution that does support HUB and other device classes however that solution was not cost effective. We wanted to keep the device affordable for FIRST Teams. Also the 15-pin joystick port does not provide enough interface to support more than one device. We have a device that outputs RS232 data instead of analog/digital. It is less expensive than the chicklet. If we had a serial port on the O/I this would have been the way to go.

Mike Copioli
CTRE
team 217

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

As a point that has been stated before, you may have missed it so i will repeat it. Teams have been looking to use USB supported controls for many years now but theres been one continiual issue, no such adapter has existed for the option. Mike and Cross the Road Electronics, since have designed, created and produced this chicklet. They are the first company to do so, and while you may like to look for it from another source for another price, you just wont find it.

On another note i look forward to all new products introduced to us by CTRE, and espically those which may be included in this years and future Kit of Parts.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

"Same idea at a cheaper cost?" ?? From what I can tell, no one else in the world supplies this product. $100 is a bargain. This is a one-of-a-kind innovation made by a small company who is focused on providing a service to FIRST teams.

Kudos to Crossing the Road Electronics for providing this great product to the FIRST community. I just hope that the GDC and FIRST engineering deem it legal.

Andy B.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

I'm curious how hard this would be for IFI to implement, along with the cheaper RS232 adapter, it seems like a good middle ground between those that want USB and those that wish to stay with the gameport. Just adding something like a set of DIP switches to determine whether a serial or gameport device is plugged in and having the OI's microcontroller just break up the serial packets into the various variables and sending those to the RC doesn't seem too complex to me,

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

Not to start an argument but there $130 (S&H?), not $100. Yes I understand that there custom and no one else makes them. Like I said, I think its a great poduct. I just dont see that they will be in the KOP. The current control system works and I dont see FIRST adding this just to use diffrent controllers. "If its not broken dont fix it". However, for the teams that want to purchase them I think there great. Im even looking at potentially getting one.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

Remember, IFI is a business. They need to look at such things with a business perspective (not to say they don't do things for the "good of the community", but they need to be smart about how they spend their money too). As an extremely rough guess, it would at least a staff-month (and probably a lot more) to make this change. As software projects go, that IS a small change, but just think of what that would cost IFI. 1/12 of the cost of an employee for a year (which is a lot higher than just their salary - health benefits, etc. add up). This amounts to many thousands of dollars. How are they going to recoup this? Is it going to help them sell more OIs? Not really, since we'll have to use them one way or another anyway.

One thing that students here will learn when they get out of college is that engineering time is expensive. Even "simple" changes can cost a company lots of money. Every feature or tweak or neat thing you want to do to a product that's in development will cost money. Businesses have to evaluate the business case for each of these changes and determine whether it will pay off or not.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

Well.. I'm guessing at this point that the device is probably legal?

Anyway, I don't know what my team would do, if they should decide to buy one. Personally, I think It would be nice to have a wider selection of joysticks, and lord only knows the gameport joysticks have been exotic and quite expensive (right about the same price as these adapters). 2 adapters for the driver, and one for the operator amounts to a nice amount of money. That might be too much. Maybe just get one, for now, for the operator, depending on the game, or make a custom box for the operator and then invest two into being able to get some new(er) USB joysticks for the driver. That will be a decision for the "higher ups," lol, ifjjasasjdi90. This is a new idea, but I'll say that the price makes the decision hard. I don't think it matters. There is enough need for a device like this that adoption won't take that long. If you could get a plug at the kickoff, then everyone would know what your device does, and you'd be setting sail right away.

Re: USB Joystick adapter is here!
 

I know it's a little late in the development cycle but, Cypress Semi Kind of specializes in this type of interface. After this batch some of their solutions may be more cost effective.