Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

So what are everyones thoughts on this crazy new VEX game?

Re: Hangin' Around
 

Sounds like fun to me! What's wrong with page 22?

Re: Hangin' Around
 

still don't see anything... another hint? I think the game looks fun though!

Re: Hangin' Around
 

not yet. another hint after a few more people guess.

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Hmmmm, is there even a Vex 1114?

Re: Hangin' Around
 

I am the last person that can judge the game design committee, but in my opinion this game lacks creativity. It looks like they just collected a bunch of ideas and rules from past FIRST games and made a mixture out of them. The point system, the ways to earn points (1 for a ball in the lower goal, 3 for a ball in the upper goal, points for parking on platform, 10 for auto winner.)
Maybe this was the intention of the game committee (to take ideas from FRC games and implement them in vex), but if not, I think that the game is just very uncreative and copies a lot of the ideas from "Aim High".

(This is just my opinion...I do not know why they have chosen these rules and what they want to achieve with this game, and therefore everything I have wrote above might just be a pile of nonsense.)

Re: Hangin' Around
 

well remember, VEX doesn't quite have the capabilites of FRC robots. We can only use VEX parts and VEX servos, so the amount of ideas that they can use aren't really their fault, its more of a is this possible to do with VEX thing. Maybe in the future, if they allow diferent motors, or make newer more powerful VEX motors, and allow other foreign parts, the games will become more "interesting." But given what they had to work with, I think they came up with a great game for this year.

Re: Hangin' Around
 

The point values are just convenient, but the objectives to earn those points are different. (What was a capped tetra worth? What was a tetra in the bottom of the goal worth?)

Personally, I like this game. Lots of ways to score, even with just a Squarebot, and lots of ways to play defense, and you can't just Beatty-in-2002 it. (I can hang and hold onto the Atlas ball, but a Squarebot on the ground can spin me around and double the balls for THEIR side.)

Softballs should also make for a fun time, since last year's racquetballs were grippier, and were, well, round. The ridges from the softballs should make teams have to figure out a new system.

Oh, and another thing: THANK GOODNESS that the autonomous setup has changed. (For those just tuning in, last year's game involved a 45-second 1v0 autonomous round played on a separate, sectioned-off field. Few of the matches were particularly spectacular, and it more or less became the red-headed stepchild of the driver-controlled matches.) The new FRC-style rounds should be pretty awesome, although I'll be interested to see how that round is actually executed, as the manual indicates that these are now happening one after the other, making for a 2:20 match. (Is IFI changing the code in the controllers?)

Re: Hangin' Around
 

Totally awesome. Thank goodness for the FRC style matches, we get to see some sweet VEX auto ideas, maybe even some dastardly defence ones in the playoffs too!

Re: Hangin' Around
 

Yes, there is a FVC 1114. Some of you may remember us as FVC 268. In accordance with the new numbering rules, we inherited our FRC team number. I had hoped to keep our FVC team number since we were somewhat well known throughout the vex world, but our FRC team number will do nicely.

Re: Hangin' Around
 

So how did your team number get picked to be in the manual?

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I find it interesting that you say this. Yes, some of the aspects are similar, but this has a rotating platform and objects that are like, 4 times as big as the robots. I don't remember ever having "attack of the jumbo ball" in FRC!

Re: Hangin' Around
 

Probably by virtue of being the last person with a team to edit the manual. The Half-Pipe Hustle manual had 229 as the mythical number.

Re: Hangin' Around
 

Ooooh!!! Ideas!!!

/me furiously writes notes to self....




.

Re: Hangin' Around
 

That would be pretty fun...

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

The game seems very interesting. I love the spinning platform but what if it gets spun while a robot is on it? :D
I can here it now "looks like team 2068 gets the points for a chin up wait, team 3036 bumps the platform ooo team 2068 falls.

so how bout that ten motor rule?

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

The spinning platform is what makes it fun! Robots are going to have to be nimble or lucky in order to hang, because the odds are that you won't be coming at the bar directly head-on. I predict a class of robots, whom I officially dub the Hellraiser, whose sole goal is to defend the platform against opposing hangers. Man, I'm going to be stewing on this design until February!

One thing I noticed:

http://www.vexlabs.com/vex-robotics-field-parts.shtml

Obviously, the field design has changed significantly from the Half-Pipe Hustle field (which was not anticipated to change for some time). But note just below the picture: IFI is replacing the fields for those who invested in a full FVC field from last season. Now that is nice of 'em.

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

Does the platform just spin in the middle, it's not movable around the field correct?

*Can't wait*

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

Anyone else already think up deisgns? I know I sure have.

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

My team is brand new so I can't compare it to last year's competition, but I absolutely love it. There are so many different aspects to the challenge, so many different ways to earn points. In particular I love having a ball larger than the robot, and a bar to hang from way taller than the robot. Increasing the motor limit to 10 via y-cables was an unexpected suprise.

I'm almost entirely sure but just checking, pneumatics are still illegal? (They really ought to be legal, they'd be so amazingly fun!)

And another question from a rookie - any idea when the playing field will be available to purchase?

Nicely done FIRST, i'm psyched.

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

I would guess that you could purchase it online, but beware of the price, it will most likely be pretty expensive. There should be plans to build a "cheap" field of stuff you can get at like Lowe's or Home Depot. I just read part of the rules and it says it will be in Appendix 6.

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

I have done a bit 'o that too... funny thing is, we don't have a FVC team.

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

I've already designed a robot in my head broken it in my head and fixed too

Any one though of having a defensive mechanism that could spin the platform? :D

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

Also because the field is flat Its going to allow for faster robot because you do not have climb a slope

Autonomous drag races anyone?

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

Yeah, it's called a lowered front bumper :-p

I'm psyched for this game. I have to, once more, give two big thumbs up to the FVC GDC for integrating easy scoring opportunities along with more difficult scoring opportunities, a maneuverable field, and some little twists (along with some old FRC fun) into this years game. It's going to be fun, and easy to watch :rolleyes:

JT
FRC 229

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

I think that this game is going to be a lot of fun.
It does seem kinda lik 2004 FRC all over game with a twist of 2006 FRC.
That huge ball is going to be interesting to handle...

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

wonder if anyone is just gonna try and pick up the atlas ball. that would be fun to watch. :D

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

That was my impression as well. But the bots score in this version, not the HP, which will change designs dramatically. So it's probably closer to a blend of the two previous FVC games (the pilot was a reworked FRC 2004). But there are several truly unique features (SPINNING PLATFORM OF DOOM). And stealing the doubler ball straight out of 04 (with dimensions and everything....mwahahahaha) is going to be ALOT of fun. :D
I wonder how many teams will try and actually manipulate the atlas ball instead of just pushing it around.
So many little strategies forming in my head, pity I'm only going to be helping to supervise FVC 116.

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

I hear ya, I'm not even allowed to help come up with ideas during the brainstorming session. :(

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

I'd be allowed to (and I am helping them analyze the game), but I'm voluntarily trying to take a more external role (even then last year, in which I took a step back from the year before).

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

I predict we will soon need a separate thread dedicated to Hellraiser 'bots, similar to the KoH 'bot thread from the 2003 FRC game.

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

Oh yeh, definatly a fun field. There will be a lot of innovative designs in this one. Of course I've already designed a bot what with capabilites to score and lift hurrah.
But the new team will be the ones doing the designing...I'm taking a bit of a coaching role for the new TFC team.

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

ok, well I'm just allowed to help them figure out how to make something work after they come up with the inital design. So once they know what they want the robot to do, I help them figure out the how.

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

Folks - FYI - I went to Walmart (the supplier named in the FVC Hangin'-A-Round Bill of Materials) to get some softballs. Guess what - My local stores aren't stocking softballs right now - Not a one in the store. Softball and baseball equipment is stocked only seasonally, and this is not softball season. Grrrrr :-(

I wonder how many Walmarts in similar or farther North latitudes/locations across North America have similar policies. The BoM might benefit from a wee edit....

So I went to Modell's - Expensive and uninspiring selection.

So I went to Dick's - Found a bucket of twenty-four 11" "Official" white softballs for $50 (That's about $2/ball). They tried to charge me $60, but the tag on the bucket's handle said $50. I wanted yellow balls, but all of the yellow ones were 12" balls.

Blake

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

Same problem up here in Connecticut. Had to go to Dick's too. I found individual yellow 11" 'fast pitch' Wilson balls at $4.50 each. The Worth 'slow pitch' balls were white and $5.50.

Anyone know if there's a weight difference between fast pitch and slow pitch softballs???? :confused:

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

I did some Googling and found this site - http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/WilliamPoon.shtml - It cites a couple of regulations for the mass of an 11" ball. Of course one of them is from a manual that is only distributed in printed form and the URL for the other is a dead link.

The citations list two mass ranges for 11" balls: 165-175 grams and 167-174 grams. Both pertinent citations say the 11" ball circumference should be 11" +/- 1/8"

More to your point - I did not find a specified difference between balls used in slow, fast or modified pitch games. However, that could be because I didn't find any much of anything useful on the subject. Who out there is better at picking search terms than I?

There seem to a zillion variations in ball construction (including the zillion that Worth offers); and the specs commonly used to separate balls seem to be Circumference, Coefficient of Restitution (COR), Lbs of force required to achieve a specific deformation, Cover material used, Stitching used, and Core material.

Apparently ball mass is not something that players use to separate one ball type from another.

Bottom line(s):

• Get an 11" ball, not a 12" or larger.

• If Worth makes only one ball that matches the vague spec in the FVC BoM, it isn't obvious on the Worth web site.

• Cross your fingers and don't spend too much money just yet...(I haven't opened my $50 bucket of balls yet.)

• I think the Hangin' Around BoM needs a bit of improvement (Such as a more precise ball spec or an explicit confirmation that the vagueness is intentional).

Blake

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

wow. what a great game. i love it. its the last 3 years of FRC with some extra twists. huge thumbs up to the FVC GDC

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

Thanks Blake,

My main concerns were mass, there weren't any weights listed on the packaging, and the composition differences between slow and fast pitch balls. I'm sure it's an issue of energy transfer. Slow pitch balls are probably slightly "harder" so they preform similarly to fast pitch balls which are being thrown with higher energy. Slow pitch balls will transfer energy a little better than fast pitch balls. In this game it shouldn't matter, other than if there had been a weight difference.

The other factor that might be important to some teams would be color. The manual references the high visibility yellow balls, not white. If a team wants to use a light sensor to key in on the balls, there would be a difference in signal between white and yellow balls, and it would also allow contrast between the white field lines and the balls.

I'll also agree that this year's game is great!!! Thanks GDC!! :D

I'm always a fan of large size scoring pieces for vex. That atlas ball is even bigger than I'd expect. Very cool. :cool:

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

I would add cover material and stitching to the the list of variables that can have a noticeable effect on robot performance/design.

Unless standardized, the ball covers encountered in competitions can have different friction and "give" when some ball pick-up or handling mechanisms try to rub, squeeze or bite into them.

Similarly, I think the different stitching approaches available can have a non-trivial effect on ball pick-up and handling.

Blake

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

I couldn't agree more.
My daughter is a softball pitcher and they need to know what brand ball they will use before the season. Not only is there a huge difference in the height of the stitching, the actual texture of the ball can be vastly different.

I recall last year, certain used racquetballs would not be picked up by our bot due to their smoothed shell.

Softball brand will need to be specified before experimenting with the bot.

Mark
FVC160

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

You might not want to count on that. Many previous FIRST game pieces have included some minor variation in features; this variation has been considered part of the challenge, not grounds for replacing the gamepiece. For example, if the gamepiece specification in the manual only calls out circumference, then the circumference is the only feature you can count on when designing your robot.

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

those looking for ball information... direct from FIRST procurement folks:

the "official tournament" softballs are optic yellow, cork core, 11", 0.44 COR, 375 lb compression from Worth, part # YWCS11. It is labeled as a "Retail recreational softball"

The field BOM will be updated accordingly.

However, nearly any 11" circumference softball will do for testing and practice. Also, please remember that there may be slight variances in softballs, even from ball to ball (as well as other field components), and teams need to design to accommodate this.

In the future, any FVC team desiring an official answers needs to use the FVC Q&A as directed in the game manual. It's located here:
http://forums.usfirst.org/forumdisplay.php?f=35

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

I just tried that link, and I didn't have permissions to see the forum (while logged in as the FRC Q&A username). Is this how things are supposed to be?

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

I had the same problem. I had to send an email to the webmaster a few days ago and the problem has now been cleared up.

Mike

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

I just saw something that JVN posted on the VexForum about the '06-'07 FVC Game. I thought it was pretty cool so here it is,
I just thought that summed it all up, and pretty much put my thoughts into words...lol. I think this will be a great game!

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

Worth Sports has a PDF that lists all of their products. On page 43 in the upper left hand corner is the product. Suggested list price is $9.99 for 4 softballs. It's interesting to note that on the BOM the softballs are listed as costing $3.50 each. I wonder why there is a discrepancy.

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

Yup, this is currently how the system is setup. If you just wish to view the forums, you'll need to log out of your FRC account. If you wish to post a question, please register for a new account.

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

Re: Softballs: Talk to your school softball coaches. Chances are they've got 50 practice softballs laying around that they wouldn't mind sharing.
Re: Game: Since the rules stipulate that a VEX team has at most 10 students, and our FRC team is currently around 30 (up from 11 last year - hooray for word of mouth advertising!), I'm having an in-house competition. Split the teams up into 4 groups, got 4 starter kits (hooray for 1/2 price at RadioShack!) and some crystals, I'm building the field out of PVC and cardboard and a $2 lazy susan from Wal-Mart, and mid-October we'll see who the best robot is.
I know that even our best won't be competitive against a real FVC team (4 motors vs. 10 motors for a start - I'm confining them to one starter kit and the rubber bands, string, etc.) but the students have come up wih designs which will do the necessary tasks using only the starter kit materials. Should be fun.
Great way to introduce the rookie members to the idea of a short build season, designing and building as a team, their own strengths and weaknesses, and of course GP.
Anybody else doing the same?

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

I'm still having trouble designing to fit your requirements...
but I think I have just figured out how to get it an extra 6 inches above the bar... but i still have to see if it will be able to pull itself up, and it only picks up one ball at a time so it wont be as good as my last design on scoring... maybe i can figure it out, but then again maybe not

"I can always use a hammer to beat some extra size out of it" khutchtumur bum-erdene 2006

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

We do something similar each fall (even before the Vex kits), but with our own custom, simple games. Last year (the first with the Vex kits) we had the students group up and build squarebots with manipulators (primarily plows) and push ping pong balls and dixie cups around a field into their end zones (bonus points if they got the balls into the cups, in their end zones, and even more if the balls were in a cup standing up). Relatively simple, and only really took a meeting and half to build and compete. This year we will be doing something similar again, but will be allowing teams to be a bit more adventurous (although they could still build square bots if they wished) and will be making the game a bit more complex.
Before the vex kit, we used modified drills and plywood, and some scrap material and model car/boat parts to make the minibots.

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

Has anyone out there found a good mail order source (ordered via telephone or internet) for bulk delivery (50-ish quantities) of the YWCS11 model Worth Softball that is the official game piece for Hangin' Around?

Using Google a few night ago I searched high and low and came up empty.

Blake
PS: Yes - I do want exactly that model in factory-fresh condition.

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

Not to change the subject but...

In section 3.4.2 of the rule book it discusses rankings. Your rank points will be equal to the losing teams score. This is good and bad both. If you are the losing team hopefully you won get totally owned. But for all of you guys planning to build a Vex equivalent of The 25 robot(myself included) it looks like you may have to score for your opponents to keep your ranking points high. That also shoots down the idea of descoring you opponents balls in qualifying(which is totally legal if you don't care about your ranking points).

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

The way I see it, ranking points worries brought on by de-scoring are relatively insignificant. RPs are the second form of ranking, after your WLT record. Unless there are several undefeated or one-loss teams at your event, odds are that a de-scoring strategy won't make the difference between you picking or not picking. But even if you aren't picking, I believe that a competent de-scoring robot will find a home on an alliance somewhere, particularly if they can convert those balls into points for their own alliance. In the absence of that, my pick list would look for some sort of platform, bar, or Atlas ball control.

Unless you're in a round against a pair of flowerpots (read: non-moving robots), I wouldn't worry about it.

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

I can't wait To see Lavery's face when he realizes I have no idea what I want the robot to do.
I do like the fact, that we get a larger size limitation than last year, 10 motors es muy bien, Mm I can just think up ideas now...

Oh and I love the whole Drinking straw+construction paper= flag :D

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

Does anyone know what type of ball the Atlas ball is exactly? And where to procure one besides VexLabs (which doesn't have them on sale yet)? They're supposed to go on sale soon, but I figure the sooner our team can get our hands on one the better.

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

It's supposedly identical to the 2004 FRC Doubler Balls, if you can get your hands on one of those (which was a 36" rubber inflatable ball, inflated to 30"). Otherwise, pretty much any 30" rubber inflatable ball should be close enough for most applications.

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

Look into finding a few FRC teams in your area that have been around for a while. I know my FRC team has about 6 of these balls still hanging around from that year as we were originally going to deal with the doubler ball and later decided not to, so they were never used until now for our FVC team.

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

Are there any penalty points to be incurred in this game? I've looked through the rule book and see nothing but powerdowns and DQs.

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

I did a reread of the manual, and you're right--the only penalties there are disables and DQs. It makes sense, though, since last season's game didn't need penalties, either. In Championship-level play last year, we had only one case where there was even a hint of a question as to whether a team had an entanglement issue, and that's about all the refs had to figure out. Past that, our task was largely score tabulation; the game was settled on the field. I wouldn't have it any other way.

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

When designing this year's game the FVC GDC developed a game mandate. This described what we wanted in a game, based on discussions we had as to "what makes a good game?". Some of our top priorities were to have a game that was:
- Easy to understand --> easy to score by the audience
- Smooth game play
- Not be referee intensive

So in accord with this mandate we decided that penalty points were something that should be avoided. We decided to let the scoring tasks and methods dictate the flow and strategies of the game, as opposed to penalty flags. We feel that this provides a much better experience for all involved, teams, spectators and volunteers.

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

I like this game - it provides for many different strategies and different ways of winning. For instance, you could score the majority of balls, but they would have the doubler and win (or vice versa - they have the doubler, but not enough balls scored to win). The platform in the middle is interesting too - will the game play cause the lazy susan to be spinning lots, and will that interfere with anything? When robots are going to hang, will spinning knock them off? Will there be enough space for your robot to get on the platform on the end, nevermind space enough to hang?

The hanging is particularly fun - There are 4 possibly 18" by 18" robots on the field - the bar is only 33"? wide - if two bots are both 18" wide they can't fit - if one 12" robot is in the middle of the bar, you'll only have 10" on either side to hang. It may get competitive.

Re: Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion
 

Well, I have answered my own question. Because I am both picky and stubborn, I kept digging until I found a YWCS11 supplier.

Use the contact info below to order YWCS11 softballs for $27/Dozen. That price includes shipping to your doorstep within the continental US (unless you live in some really exotic spot). That is half the price I recently paid for individual balls that weren't even the "official" Hangin' Around balls.

************************************************** *******
Our price for the softballs- $26.99/dozen which includes shipping. If at all possible order even dozens- that's how they're sold and consequently somewhat better priced.

David Boyer
Manager
Paul's Sports
Phone: 703-707-0513
Fax: 703-738-7849
david@paulssports.com
************************************************** *******
See you on the field,
Blake