Christian FIRST Group
 

I am not sure how many people would be interested in this but i was just wondering a few things? With the growing numbers in FIRST i have seen an increasing number of Christian FIRSTers. This has given me and Mike of 340 the idea of doing a couple things

1)praying before regionals (just gathering off to the side of the field. Anyone who wants to participate can)

2)possibly organizing the Christians in FIRST into some type of group or even just gathering(suggestions on this would be awesome)

thats all we have right now but we are open to suggestions!!

p.s. if i have done something wrong here or offended anyone we are sorry and please just let us know, but we believe the Lord is calling us to get the Lord's word out!

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

Nothing wrong with getting the word out.
If they are offended they don't have to join.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

Thank you very much for the encouragement Ed! It really means alot!

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

just an idea, do something like the N.E.R.D.'s or Mavericks do. Have a group with a cool name like that.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

Isn't that what churches are for? FIRST is about robots.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

There is nothing wrong with mixing the two...Just like apples and bananas, they taste fine together... :)

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

If that was the case then the Chairman's Award would not exist. Nor animation really.
They have nothing to do with the robot.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

The animation does.

Those things all have to do with the robotics program as a whole. Religion does not, except perhaps in the sense that most religions call for reaching out to those less fortunate than yourself, and many FIRST teams perform community outreach.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

FIRST is also about gracious professionalism.

And in a case like this, there is nothing wrong with a group of people from several teams getting together for a common interest. Heck, the idea of people coming together for a common interest makes a FIRST team in the first (no pun intended) place...

I say go for it.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

A group of peers who have similar interest should not be a source of controversy especially if they are doing ti off to the side among st themselves not bothering anyone.
Say, I wanted to start a FIRST group for African-Americans that address the concerns and needs of African-Americans in FIRST. I would certainly hope no one would get upset by that because it fills a need. Just like this group would.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

I say this because I wonder what happens when a team from a public high school has say a majority of their members in such a group. Perhaps this group does activities during what are official team meetings, or while the team is representing the school. Perhaps one of the students not a part of this group feels like they are being pressured to take part with the other students. This could be a very sticky situation, that I'm sure a school would not be happy about. I can think of all kinds of potential situations that might infringe on the separation of church and state.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

I know WIlson Magnet has both a choir and a prayer group and I never heard of it being a problem there. So long as it doesn't infringe upon school policy I don't think it crosses the line between church and state.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

1. Private prayer is a wonderful idea. Just as long as it isn't over a loudspeaker. God can hear people clearly enough. ;)

2. Cool idea, might be useful to start it in myspace or something like that (chain e-mail).

As far as I am concerned, as long as it begins and remains an option and nothing more (ex: Its less of an option if somebody declines the offer and gets a look of even minor dissent, or when offered it is offered in a way that yes is apparently the only answer), its OK.

I personally think for people like me, who once went to church on a regular basis but then due to other callings had to just read the bible and soak in as much as possible, a prayer at/before a regional would be a major spiritual booster, morale boost, etc. Fantastic idea.

-Joe

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

Dylan, I think this is a good idea and I appreciate you bringing this up. Members of any religion should certainly feel a need to gather and pray to whichever supreme being they choose, and FIRST does, after all, embody a number of values that are also held by many religions. As a Christian myself, i am disappointed that this has not been mentioned earlier. We should all strive to live out our religion more in our daily lives, including in FIRST.

As for your concerns, Cory, i can understand your concerns. I would certainly hope that no one would feel at all pressured to take part in such a group; as you mentioned, such activities should not necessarily be a part of official, mandatory meetings. However, this could potentially serve as a young person's first experience with Christianity and could have a profound impact on his or her life. It would be a shame to eliminate this possibility. On another note, this really has nothing to do with "separation of church and state." First, praying at regionals has very little to do with the state and/or federal governments at all. Secondly, none of the founding documents even imply that public gatherings or political events must be free from any and all religion; however, the establishment of a religion (that is, direct government support, funding, or reqired practice of said religion) is expressly prohibitted.

So basically what I'm trying to say is that praying at regionals is a great idea; it could help bring teams together and it would certainly provide a forum in which students and mentors could express their beliefs.
Thanks Dylan, this is a wonderful idea.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

Hey all, this is Mike from 340.
First off, we don't want to offend anyone, and anything I'm going to say now, or anytime in the future is not meant to be offensive in any way. I'm not angry in anyway, I just want to discuss this in an "adult-like manner".

Having common interests is what brings people together no matter where you go. That's how people make, and keep friends. FIRST is an awesome organization that has been bringing people together since it started! I think I read a post once about the first marriage between two people that met through FIRST.
What Dylan and I are going for is to use FIRST as a way to communicate to other FIRSTers about the love that the Lord has for them (To be clear, I'm not saying this is our sole purpose for participating in FIRST). If we asked people to come to church with us, not a lot of people would. So we're using a more comfortable environment to talk about God with them. We feel that this is a much better, more effective way of doing this.

I hope this helps... please let us know if you have anymore questions or comments!

-Mike

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

I will at this time close this thread. We do have guidelines on what is acceptable on CD. I believe that this discussion on religion should be closed temporarily to allow things to cool down. When reopened please only discuss the original thought not what is derived from someones post. The question was, quote:

I am not sure how many people would be interested in this but i was just wondering a few things? With the growing numbers in FIRST i have seen an increasing number of Christian FIRSTers. This has given me and Mike of 340 the idea of doing a couple things

1)praying before regionals (just gathering off to the side of the field. Anyone who wants to participate can)

2)possibly organizing the Christians in FIRST into some type of group or even just gathering(suggestions on this would be awesome) thats all we have right now but we are open to suggestions!!


Please do not go off the topic or it will need to be closed again. I will attempt to reopen in 24 hours.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

I have deleted a few posts here to help keep the topic on topic. I will reopen tomorrow morning around 7 am EST. Please try to keep on topic. If issues arise they will be deleted.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

The thread has now been reopened. Thanks in advance for your co-operation.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

Thanks so much for bringing this up on CD.
I've discussed the idea with many people I know but they have seemed noncommittal. I've always wondered why there wasn't a Christian FIRST group and was always thinking of a way to get one started.
So, on that note, I'd love to be involved!

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

Steve,

Define "off topic".
Is it your edict that the "topic" is limited to the two bullets you selected from the original post? Or is the part you omitted also open to discussion? - which was:
As to the Postscript: I believe that FIRST should be, and is, a diverse organization. We members should not, and do not, exclude anyone because of race, religion, national origin, etc. If some want to form groups to celebrate their common interests, then I'm all for it. However, if the praying off to the side of the field is an attempt on their part to get the Lord's word out, then that makes the rest of us participants. If it is toward us that the word is aimed, or it is we that the word has gotten to, then we would be perfectly within "our rights" to ask them to cut it out.

I doubt the RCU was formed to encourage me to turn female. Nor do I think Ed's proposed African-American group would expect me to convert. But Christians in FIRST holding services next to the field would be an affront to my chunk of diversity.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

I can't commit the time right now to actually get anything set up, but if there is someone who wanted to set up a web site for this purpose, I would be willing to provide web hosting space off of my company's hosting plan. If someone wants to register a domain for this and then contact me, I can provide them with the information to do the redirect into the space that I set aside.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

This is a great point.

We are bound together, being brothers and sisters in FIRST. While we have this bond, we are also diverse. For many, this may be the first time they interact closely with people in a different religion, race or culture.

Obviously, we must repect each other and these differing beliefs. I think that this diversity within FIRST combined with the bond that keeps up passionate about the support and growth of FIRST is one of the important things that keeps this program strong.

I suggest that we continue to support this diversity, as we learn to be better people through this process. At the same time, we should not expect to convert people to become what they are not. We can just communicate the efforts of these organizations, and people can choose to seek more information if they wish.

A good example of this sort of support and communication happened in 2005 when the Jewish Seder was promoted in Atlanta. This effort was done in a non-threatening and mature way, and many people participated.

While we discuss this stuff, let's keep our heads on straight. Open your eyes and look around you. Let's celebrate our common goal while accepting our differences.

Andy Baker

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

Jack I am not here to be controversial. I do want people to be able to voice opinions. I also know that this is a sensitive topic. What I would like to see is a calm discussion without slamming from either side. Heated discussions on this topic can blow up real fast. The points that you made in this post are valid and to the point. I did not find them to be against what is requested. Please continue to discuss and keep level heads.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

the freedom to assemble and the freedom to associate with whom ever you choose are two of the fundamental rights that we believe all humans are entitled to.

You dont need anyones permission to form a sub-group with people in FIRST who share common interests or ideas or philosophies or religious beliefs, just as you did not need permission from your church to join a FIRST team.

There must be thousands of Christians involved with FIRST. The idea that somehow they must all be kept separated at FIRST events would be absurd :^)

If you feel that associating or organizing gatherings with other FIRST people who share a particular common interest would result in a positive outcome, then go for it!

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

I also support this idea in that it would be a great way to form a community within FIRST. That's one of the things that I've liked about FIRST, that we can meet new people that share our interests. This is no different in my opinion, and I like the idea of being able to meet with other believers. It would certainly be a great encouragement to some of the Christian FIRSTers who else here is with them in their belief. Great idea, Mike and Dylan.

I am the webmaster for Team 340. I am also working on starting up some business selling sites, so I have some server space available to me as well, but I don't have access to many domains on that space. I could create a site and host it there long enough to do some work on it, then transfer it over. I'd probably need to know the restrictions of the space, though. For example, PHP and MySQL enabled? Space (probably a non-issue)? If you'd like to talk about that, I'd be glad to see what I can get started. I'm on AIM, MSN, ICQ, and Yahoo, so it's virtually impossible not to find an IM that I don't have if you want to talk about that, or just e-mail me, which might be easier with my schedule.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

I can support the forming of this group, as long as no one is excluded and it is not ugraciously promoted. I don't want to be handed a pamphlet, although being Christian in nature, and told that this is an awesome thing. If I were Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, ect ect and handed a pamphlet to join this, I would be mildly offended but would accept that it's just human nature. Of course, not everyone shares the same thought process as me. Some people aren't open-minded and that has to be accepted and taken into account when forming such group. You might get some heckling about it, what will you do about that?

Does this have to vocal prayer? Why not include all faiths in this and have an offsite religious gathering? The basis of which the people have time, together, to pray as a group about the same thing but to their own religious guidelines. Why does it have to be exclusive to Christianity?

There are multiple affiliations around the country that hold prayers at schools and such. I'm familiar with one, ROCK, Reaching Our Campus for the King. My brother just joined and I was not a big fan of it because I don't believe religion belongs in schools. However, religion can coincide with school and FIRST. Just don't make it exclusive to one religion, that's all that I ask.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

I am not saying that there can only be a christian group. But i am just simply suggesting the idea, generating ideas, and seeing who would be willing to support the idea. If anyone would like to form another group including a different religion they can but this is just one idea others and myself have discussed.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

If you are going to do this I would caution you. FIRST has no religous affiliations and sponsors are aware of this. Praying isn't meant to be harmful to anyone and I am in favor of this, but sponsors may not see it the same way. Sponsors sometimes make it a point to not get involved with anything that is religously affiliated. I am not sure if praying beside the field would be appropriate place to do this because it may give sponsors the wrong idea. Like I said before, I am in favor of this but if this happens you just have to be very careful of where and when you do it. Nobody wants to see FIRST lose sponsors for something as innocent as this. Good luck with getting this started up; I am not Christian myself but my spirit is with you anyways. :)

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

Jack,

Your post does an excellent job conveying my feelings on the matter. Thank you.

Both the RCU and the theoretical African-American group would serve to empower an underrepresented minority in FIRST. Considering that 77% of Americans consider themselves Christian, I don't believe that a Christian FIRST group would be serving the same function as the RCU (women are only about 30% of the engineering work force). In my opinion, the formation of such a group is unnecessary, because there isn't a perceivable bias in the science and engineering fields towards or against certain religions. Comparing religion in FIRST to gender in FIRST is comparing apples to oranges; you can't tell what religion a person is just by looking at them. However, skin color and gender DO make a difference in one's socio-economic status and the way one is perceived by society (and consequently, one's likelihood of becoming an engineer). Such a group wouldn't serve Christians in the same way that the RCU serves women.

However, I am not against the idea of a Christian group which meets privately for the sole purposes of spiritual and social networking (similar to the Jewish Seder held a few years ago). However, to make such a group's presence felt at a competition would cross that boundary, and would undoubtedly make people feel uncomfortable, including myself.

One thing I can always count on while attending a FIRST competition is the fact that I will feel no pressure to become someone who I do not want to be. What makes the diversity found in FIRST great is that we are all united together for a common purpose - promoting the science and technology fields to young people. Introducing a palpable religious element could threaten to topple that unity by making certain members of FIRST feel alienated (those in the minority who are not Christian).

Dylan, if you do choose to form a Christian FIRST group, I would ask that your group conduct itself in such a way that other FIRST participants don't feel like they are being pressured to change their personal beliefs, or feel that they are being alienated (and no, the answer can't be "join, and you won't feel alienated anymore"). I think that this line is easily blurred within Christianity, because part of being a Christian is to spread the word of Jesus.

In short, if your intent is to promote Christianity to other FIRSTers (handing out pamphlets asking people to convert, or making your presence felt to those who do not want to feel it), I ask you to respectfully take it somewhere else. You should form your own group, not associated with FIRST, and do so outside of the FIRST venue.

However, if your intent is just to meet other Christian FIRSTers for social purposes, then I encourage you to form your group. However, please don't hold prayer services on the field, because that would make it appear as if FIRST endorsed Christianity (and non-Christians would feel uncomfortable). If you want to hold a group prayer, perhaps you could hold one in the morning, before matches begin, somewhere outside. People could join if they wanted to, but they could just as easily walk away without feeling pressured. As long as what you do doesn't have an overwhelming presence inside the FIRST venue, I would probably feel comfortable.

What makes FIRST so great to me is that I can look up to any mentor or student, regardless of their religion or political views, and respect them for their contributions to science, technology, FIRST, or their team. When those people choose to publicly associate themselves with a religious belief, it makes it harder for me to view them as role models, because all of a sudden there may be less common ground between us. That is why I usually dislike reading political threads here on Chief Delphi. I hate it when I say to myself, "Oh no, he's not a Republican too, is he?" about someone who I hold respect for. When a role model reveals information about themselves that doesn't pertain to FIRST or it's goals, they may cause people to ignore their positive contributions to FIRST - seeing only the political or religious side of that person.

What makes diversity in FIRST flourish is the fact that no matter where we come from, we can agree on a certain set of moral and social objectives which have been defined by the organization (gracious professionalism, the promotion of science/technology to kids). Our religious beliefs should remain disassociated from FIRST (although that doesn't mean we don't abide by them in FIRST), in the sense that we promote our religious beliefs elsewhere. When participating FIRST, we promote FIRST's values, and when participating in a Church/political rally, we promote our other personal beliefs. The two should not be mixed up, lest one interferes with the other's ability to fulfill it's intended purpose.

Jaine

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

Jaine-
I can understand your point about such a group not performing the same function as the RCU group or other organizations with the goal of giving various minorities within a given group (in this case, engineering) greater opportunities within said group. However, I think Dylan made it clear that this was not his intent:

"1)praying before regionals (just gathering off to the side of the field. Anyone who wants to participate can)

2)possibly organizing the Christians in FIRST into some type of group or even just gathering(suggestions on this would be awesome) thats all we have right now but we are open to suggestions!!"

While you have a valid point that no one should feel pressured to conform to a given set of values or beliefs, this point is rather irrelevant in this discussion since any religious group of any denomination praying off to the side of a venue before an event should in no way be pressuring (or for that matter offensive) to other participants.

However, it would seem that certain comments within this very thread seem to be pressuring Dylan and his teammates to "check their religion at the door" and, in my humble opinion, are actually more inconsiderate and less "politically correct" than the presence of a prayer group at an event.

Thank you
~Woody

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

As Mike's team leader I am proud of him and Dylan for having the courage to stand up and ask this. I have known Mike & his brother for a number of years and I can assure you that he has never pushed his beliefs (or a pamphlet) in my face. If anything, he has let me know that we all need to be a little more observant of other's beliefs. I once tried to schedule a team meeting in the morning on the last Sunday before ship date. This was a bit insensitive, he let me know. We waited until after lunch to start.
My point is, that FIRST isn't just about robots. It is about helping people become the best they can be. For Mike & Dylan, & others that involves their religion. They just want to meet up with others like them. They won't push their religion on you anymore than you will push your robot designs on them. Just keepin' it friendly.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

On behalf of Dylan and myself, we thank you for your input! Please continue to do so!

This idea is still in the making, we don't have a "clear cut" plan of what we want to do as of yet, this is why we are asking for comments and suggestions. This "group" will never, ever pressure people into making decesions they don't want to. The goal of this group would be to provide a way of Christians that are involved with FIRST to meet other Christians. If non-Christians want to hang out too, that's totally fine! We want to make an environment that is open to all! We will never judge anyone. We want to show God's love, through us.

About the topic of praying at regionals. I know for sure that NASCAR opens thier races with prayer. It's like the concept of the "Pledge of Allegience", as well as the "National Anthemn". Even if you don't agree with the country, aren't a citizen, etc, you should still stand for respect. At hockey games, we stand for the Canadian song, and vis versa. I know however, that it is different when we talk about God. Im not saying that the prayer has to be over the loudspeaker, we would just like to be able to stand off to the side, (again, with only those who want to) to pray for the day, safety of all the people there, thank God for the opportunity to be there, etc.


Thanks for all the feedback! Please keep it coming!
-Mike

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

Mike and Dylan:
This is just a thought.
You might consider contacting the FIRST Senior Mentor in your neck of the woods and if you don't have one, contact your Regional Director - and ask for their input. I would do it in an email, privately. Gather some of your thoughts, ideas, suggestions and present them, asking for the mentor to either guide you as to the how-to's or to check into it.

Jane

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

Let's let FIRST bring us together as a whole rather than separate us into parts eh?

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

Just posting to let people know I still exist. :)

I'm actually a little suprised that there isn't already a group for this, with FIRST being as large as it is! All kinds of stuff goes on in the FIRST community, I thought there would be a Christian type group for sure. Just thought that I'd say that as a non-Christian I wouldn't be offended if there was a group like this.

Like everyone says, though, just don't do all of the obvious 'preaching' type stuff and we'll all get along fine. :D

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

Imho, being the atheist that I am, I would feel offended. The whole idea would seem like saying "Hey, we are here and we outnumber you, join us and have a good time or you can just sit there feeling segregated."

That is what I honestly would feel like. Just thinking about this really makes my heart sink down into my chest. I'm not saying I'm a wuss but I would feel alienated, and to stop this feeling of being alienated I have to join in? That just doesn't seem fair... thats all :/

Sorry if this post offends anybody, just wanted to post what I felt.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

Not to offend you or be rude but by all means why not go make a group of atheists and you guys meet up during a competition. And if you did don't you think that many other "groups" would feel alienated,"left-out", or even that same, "we're outnumbered, lets just join 'em so we aren't segregated" just my personal opinion though. (2 cents of info...)

And just one more penny, i don't see why we should say, "NO, you can't for a group because it will make people feel left out." If that were the case most every robotics group should also get "denied" because it is for a certain region of the country or some other way *exclusive* to an area or group of people. I mean don't you think the people in CA might feel left out cause they don't live in New England and therefore *can't* be apart of N.E.R.D.??? Just another thought...don't hold my 3 cents against me though... :)

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

As I have stated on IRC last night any group in FIRST created and limits membership by non FIRST relative qualities should be eliminated. We already have groups based off of, geographical location, gender and now religion. That is only a few steps a way from race. It should have been stopped at geographical location, yet everyone thought, "Oh it is just one small thing, it is doing more good than it could possibly harm." Well now further down the road you see it built a foundation for other groups which can cause harm. Religion, gender and race are three things FIRST groups should never ever limit membership by. Geographical location is something people do not fight over yet it is the same principle.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

Let me clear up something. This "group" will never limit who can and who can't be in the group. Say we start a website, or forums, we will say, "Anyone that wants to be a part of this can. Just please respect our God and each other." We're not out to segregate FIRST. Not in the least bit. That's what I love about FIRST, is that no matter where you go, if you find someone from FIRST, you always feel comfortable, and are able to talk to them. That's how Dylan and I started, before we knew each other were Christians, we talked for about 45 minutes to an hour about FIRST. We just want to take that one step further. We want Christian's to be able to meet up with one another (I'm not saying that when we meet, it's gonna be this huge blob that travels around together. It might be like that sometimes, but we are at Regionals, and Nationals to support our team. Dylan and I are both on Drive Teams, so our time is really limited)where they won't hear the profanities and all the other stuff that we normally hear. As I recall, there was a thread about profanities at Nationals. You can go to that thread here.

So the summary of this post is to say that this group is not going to pressure any others or make people feel left out if they don't join.


Again, we aren't going to limit who joins. This would be open to all people. If you were to join, we would just ask that you respect our God, our beliefs as well as others in the group.

Thank you for the continued feed back! It is greatly appreciated!
-Mike

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

Let me clarify the term respect as Mike stated in reference to our God. That doesn't mean we're going to force you to believe it, but we would certainly not appreciate anyone coming and throwing religious slanders out all over the place.

And it seems to me like a lot of the complaints against such a group are formed along the mindset that we would either be pushing into the other groups or separating us from them. That is not the goal. We don't want to be separate from FIRST in any way. We're there as FIRSTers first, then as anything else, in this case as a brotherhood of Christians. It's not like we're a church group invading a FIRST event, since we are still part of the FIRST community. We also wouldn't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable by forcing our views on them. At times that even destroys our witness more than anything else by scaring them away from any possible belief, which is something we would never hope to do.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

I've always lived by the mantra that if you want to make (and keep) friends in life, don't bring up religion or politics. I really don't care what religion or political affiliation you are, and nor do I want to.

There is one reason and one reason alone why I would stand in direct opposition to this; and that the fact that generic rules can and will slowly mutate over time. It may not happen instantly, but if you allow religious groups to practice their beliefs inside the competition venue, you may see someone who says "If Christians/Jews/Muslims can express their religious beliefs, then how come I can't start a Democrat or Republican FIRST Group, and have all the Democrats/Republicans have a big meeting at a regional? After all, we're only looking to make friends with each other and not impose our beliefs..."

Once you bring religion and politics into things, it only goes downhill. Just look into the history books to see how many wars were started over differences in religion. Before you know it, you may have all different kinds of groups in FIRST Regionals for all their constituents, and after time they may slowly begin to degenerate the FIRST experience.

It's the same thing with noisemakers and saved seating. Sure there were people whose noisemakers were not that loud, and there were people who saved some seats for genuine purposes. And sure there are a large majority of people who think these are stupid rules. But FIRST had to enact these rules to prevent everything from getting out of control.

Even though I'm also Christian, I would stand completely against the idea of having this group meet inside the arena, but would give 100% support for the idea of meeting outside the arena (or in the lobby, as long as it's not blocking the entrance). I don't want to see religious or political groups get out of control in FIRST, and nor do I want to see people's religious beliefs quelled.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

Dylan and Mike,

Its been very interesting reading this thread. As I said before, no group of people need permission or approvial to associate or assemble together for any given reason.

Reading through this thread I see many people saying they would be offended if groups of people got together on the sidelines of events to pray, or if Christians went off by themselves to socalize and fellowship.

There is somewhat of an engineering principle in effect here: feedback. People are giving you feedback and telling you how they will feel. So the question is up to you, how you will process that information, what you will do with it?

Are the benefits of Christian fellowship at FIRST events worth the cost of some team members feeling offended or alienated? Only you can answer that, no one can answer it for you.

From my personal experience, I can tell you when people pray in public in mixed company I feel very uncomfortable. We can talk to God any time we want, but I cannot resolve, when people feel the need to talk to God in the presence of others who do not share their beliefs, what are they really trying to accomplish?

Jesus had much to say about praying in public. Paul had much to say about what happens to your witness as a Christian if you do things that offend others. And here's the thing, it doesnt matter if your intentions are good, or if you dont mean to offend others - Feelings are like the laws of physics: if some one feels offended or alienated, then they are offended or alienated - it doesnt matter why you dropped a hammer, if it falls on someones head they will be hurt. You cant expect it to not hurt, because you did not intend to hurt them.

Its really up to you, what you decide to do. I have found that no matter where I go, and no matter how busy I am (at FIRST events) I somehow always manage to find one or two people that I connect with, people who share a common interest, people I can spend meaningful time with. I have never been compelled to have an annoucment made, or a prearranged meeting for all the Hobie Cat sailors to meet by the front entrance at 10AM, or all the ham radio operators...

The web site idea sounds like an interesting project, it would not be taking people away from their teams, or separating people at events (which several people in this thread have objected to), and it would allow Christians who are a part of FIRST to get to know each other on a year round basis.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

I can honestly say I didn't expect people would have a huge problem with Christians having an offical meeting or something...
I don't mean to make anyone uncomfortable. If such is the case let me know.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

I can understand the perspective that most people seem to be taking here. However, I personally disagree. In fact, I feel as thought the opposite is almost the true case here. As a Christian in my rookie year on a FIRST team last year I had no connection at all with any Christians outside of my own team, or at least I had no knowledge of their faith. That's part of why I'm interested in this group.

To be quite honest, I am starting to feel that we are the ones being alienated, at least by the posts in this topic. People here seem to be saying "it's okay for you to form a group, but please don't meet at the venue because people can see you, and don't meet off-site because then you're removing yourselves from FIRST." I get the feeling that we're the ones who are being pushed aside. I would be more offended by this not happening because of these kinds of negative attitudes than most people would be by its presence at an event.

I understand criticisms will come with a topic like this, but please follow the example of some who have offered suggestions toward how to decrease the impact of their criticisms.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

Making even more groups would start the creation of even more factions(sorry if I used this word in the wrong context, like Bush saying crusade or something.. -.-). And in the end we'll have segregation. Why can't we just focus on what we all love and hold close to our hearts. Robotics and engineering?

Why involve our personal opinions and lives into this?

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

This is a great idea! As a member of a team where every student is a Christian, I am delighted that such a group would be in FIRST. Thank you guys for bringing this up. :)

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

It's a touchy subject. Honestly, I feel that FIRST is not the place for this sort of thing, and that one can meet other people of the same religion at specifically religious places, such as a church. Then again, not being very religious, there might be something I don't quite get about it. Geographical organizations like N.E.R.D. are slightly different from this. They meet because teams can have problems which involve their location, and can be solved by meeting with other teams from the same region (let's say state laws were changed with a bad result for your team). Individual members being christians, on the other hand, does not really create a FIRST or engineering related problem, and therefor shouldn't have an exclusive FIRST group based off of it.

(Just my opinion, sorry if anyone is offended at all)

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

I wish everyone would stop saying "sorry if I offended you..." Stand up for what you believe in. If someone takes offense to it then they can present their side of it and the debate can go on from there. But you should never have to apologize for what you think.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

I just don't want to turn this thread into a heated debate. :) Because of a simple miss-analyzation of my tone.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

It's an emotional topic so it's going to get heated anyways. At least folks are engaging it with straightforward rational talk. Beleive you me, all the other messagebaords I go to this thread would have devolved into name calling by now.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

Personally, I'm for this meeting. Were the meeting to take place off to the side, and not be flagged as a main event, I'm sure there would be no problem. However, if it were to be flagged at all, rather than just the fact that it exists being known, it would not be too welcome by those who choose not to practice a religion.

But yeah, by all means, go for it. I've seen and felt the effects of prayer, so they're welcome by me.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

This is an example of things I would be thinking about. We have a very diverse team this year on 418. We have been meeting, preparing for BEST, and we had a back to school bar-b-que for the team - students, parents, mentors. I am already noticing that we will have to work at communication to make sure all of us are together on the same page this year, working with various cultures and languages. Knowing this, I'm including the parents along with the mentors and the sponsors when thinking about this thread.

I'm also thinking that the members of our team all have jobs from the time they arrive at the venue until the time they leave. Any type of gathering would have to be well organized and publicized and our team members would have had to discuss this with our lead teacher and the parents. We would have to have a full understanding of the gathering well in advance of the regional and the participants' jobs would have to be covered by someone else during that time.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

There is also the possibility of doing this at the after-party. I personally like the initial idea of meeting before the regional to pray for the upcoming event. But, maybe just having this group meeting at the after-party would give us a time to become better friends with out interfering with the team members jobs(trust me I know about needing to do something constantly :] ).

-=God Bless=- and continue the feedback!

P.S. thanx for the catch Matt!!

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

Alright,
Let me start out by saying I full support this "thread" or "idea" that the Lord has been working on. I'm not doing this just because I know Dylan (Hi dylan) i'm doing this because I belive this is an amazing idea, and when I heard about it I have not stopped thinking about it sence. I think its great that the Lord put this on Dylan's and many others hearts. (Yeah I read most of the posts) Don't give up! I think God has a lot planned for this "idea"!

Somewhere back on the first page (yeah there is like four) someone said:
Personaly I dont belive that prayer should only be offered at a church. Just because we are not at a church does not mean we cant pray. I hope to join SparX this year, from what I have heard from some of my friends on the team, and my good friend Dylan and his dad, it sounds amazing! But i'm going to help support this in any way I can even if i dont make the team.

Some dude who I dont have the pleasure of knowing named mike said this:
I would have to agree with that totally!
Once again I think its a wonderful idea and I will / would support it anyway I can.

Hope to see you all this year (if i make the team)

~Matt

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

To me, this sounds a lot like pushing your ideas in everyone's faces to tell them that they should be grateful for being loved by someone that some FIRSTers don't even believe in.

Prayer off to the side is one thing, but communicating to FIRSTers "the love that the 'Lord' has for them" is completely different.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

Alright,

I don't think they are trying to directly "force" God on people. I think they just want to offer up an organized prayer "group". That shows people what God can have for them, and maybe will bring up further opportunities.

~Matt

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

I believe what Mike ment here was that people would SEE the love of Christ in us by being there praying off to the side, not through us as you said "pushing our ideas in everyone's faces" that is how i interperated what Mike was trying to convey in his statment.

-=God Bless=- keep the feedback coming!

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

Please stick closer to the mandate of answering the questions posted on post #1

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

So by seeing you pray by the side of the field, you want people to all of a sudden realize that "Christ" loves them? All I understood from that post was that you want to make us believe more in *od and "Christ," and this supposed "love," instead of letting us believe what we want to.

And yes, I do see that as, in a way, pushing religion into our faces.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

Well sticking to the first post on page one, this is 100% OPTIONAL.
Just to make things a little clearer for everyone who reads this. According to Marriam Webster the word Optional is actually not in the dictionary, but it refers to option. Option (according to MW) simply means:
"an act of choosing" or "something that may be chosen".
Once again I would like to say that i'm pretty sure this is just ment to be an optional thing for people who want to do it.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

In the first post, Dylan says that he is sorry if he has offended anyone. Well, I feel offended. And being that I would also be offended if these prayer groups took place, I felt it was appropriate to post about why I am against this group.

It doesn't matter if it is optional. I know for a fact that if this group were to exist, we would all "have" to be quiet to show "respect." Well, maybe I don't like being inconvenienced at a FIRST competition by something that has nothing to do with FIRST.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

ok thats enough for that topic. Now back to the original topic mentioned in post #1 please. The more we push and shove the less we will resolve. so please return to the original post everyone.
Thanx and -=God Bless=-

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

It think many of us, including myself, have stated that we are fully against the formation of a Christian FIRST group. If our minds are made up, what is there to resolve.

Judging by the strong feelings expressed in this thread, I believe that this group would cause more conflict than good. I understand that this may be what you believe in, but some, like me, find it offensive.

You have, I assume, read all the posts in this thread, and I would find it to be not very GP to form a group that would obviously make some people angry/annoyed.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

I've read the posts, and we will consider the location of the meeting, but the point of this thread was to get suggestions, and the actual suggestions seem to be what's in short supply. I'm not going to argue any of the points that have been made because I understand the perspective, but they haven't provided much of a basis for us to make decisions about how to go about doing this.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

On my former team(I'm now thousands of miles away in college) we had a few rules for the shop, which translated to the competitions as well.

The two semi to completely applicable to the topic at hand are-

1. No discussion of politics in the shop.
2. No discussion of religion in the shop.

I've been of the opinion that religious beliefs are a private matter, and as such, avoid turning it into a topic of conversation unless absolutely necessary.

As long as someone isn't shoving their beliefs into my face, I won't shove back. Prayer by the field is pushing on that boundry.

Like it or not, having a prayer session in the focal point of the entire event tends to force those that are awake to be involved in some way.

If you wish to get together and pray, no matter the religious figure, please do it somewhere that isn't the center of the entire event.

What point does the prayer at fieldside serve that one in another location cannot?

There's a bit more I'd like to say, but it would be verging on throwing some gun powder towards a fire, so I'll end here.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

well i thank you for you input first of all. But about what you said "Prayer by the field is pushing on that boundry" the first post adressed that by saying off to the side. whether that means back in a corner of the pits or somewhere in the stands, but we will not be doing it in the middle of the field. Again thanx for the input and i hope i have addressed your concern to some extent.

-=God Bless=-

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

For those that want advice on how to do this here is what I have to say: Don't.

As you can see from this thread ALOT of people are offended or at least would feel uncomfortable with such a group acting inside a FIRST event.

Also even if a religious group is optional if you practice in an open area where everone can see you can make people feel uncomfortable if they do not show the same views. Also asking everyone, how would you feel if another religion lets say Muslim, started getting together and praying ont he side of the field? I'm sure you would be a little uncomfortable about it.

Please in the name of Gracious Professionalism and FIRST don't start a group when you know full well that it will make alot of people feel unhappy in various ways.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

that covers part of the point, but not all of it.

Doing this anywhere that people not interested in being involved will have to be is possibly offensive and likely disrespectful to those not involved.

What happens to the members of team **** who are busy making repairs or minor changes to their bot in the pit suddenly have a prayer group for a neighbor. At a minimum, it'd be quite distracting. If they don't want to hear it, what should they do? Stop working on the bot and leave?

somewhere in the bleachers could work, assuming the stands aren't packed to the point where people don't have much choice in where to sit.

In short, please don't do it in places where people that aren't interested in hearing your message have to listen to it.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

There has been alot of talk in the last few posts about "shoving beliefs in people's faces". While Dylan and others have promised that what they intend to do would not be considered "shoving beliefs in people's faces", consider this:

The prospect of outright "shoving" isn't the only thing which is making people feel uncomfortable. Even if the group were not to actively ask people to join or become Christian, the presence of that group would be felt anyways (if there were prayers being held at socials, or on the field sidelines), and those who do not want to participate would still feel alienated.

If I walk into a FIRST competition, and I see a large group of people holding a prayer service (Based on the fact that 77% of the country is Christian, I would assume a similar ratio would be seen among FIRST participants), I am going to feel as if being Christian were an unspoken expectation of participating in the competition. Sure, I am not officially required to, and no one is making me, but I will be very aware of the fact that I am not a participant in that particular activity. As I mentioned before, all of a sudden, there will be less common ground between me and those other FIRST participants. Highlighting these differences would make me feel very uncomfortable and out of place, and many others would feel uncomfortable as well.

Honestly, based on what I think and the views which have been expressed here, I don't think a Christian group which met at socials, by the field before matches, or anywhere else where it would create a large presence at the venue - would serve to improve the FIRST community. People would feel uncomfortable, and would uncover and highlight a very divisive issue. I know that no harm is meant by the existence of such a group, and I know that prayer is not harmful, but the side effects of this group (if it were a palpable presence at competitions) could be.

My recommendation is that you create a group which perhaps arranges to meet elsewhere (for example, you could arrange a trip to a theme park, or out to dinner) - after the competition, or regionally (for example, Chicago or Indianapolis area teams). Or, maybe you could hold online chats, where you could get to know each other and have conversations about God and your faith. I could see both of those things as being very positive and fun, and would achieve your stated objectives (finding new friends who have a common interest AND religion).

I don't think I or anyone else here is asking you to "drop your beliefs at the door" when you walk into a competition. When we come to a FIRST event, we come in as the people who we are, and we abide by all of the beliefs which compose our moral character - no matter where they come from (our religion, our upbringing, our experientially-derived moral principles). You can pray if you want to - I am sure many people already do. There is no reason why a silent, personal prayer can't be as effective as a vocal group prayer, and I don't take any offense to people praying silently to the God(s) of their choice while at a FIRST competition.

-- Jaine

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

People say things in public places all the time that may make some other people uncumfortable (profanity, for instance). However, those people still have a right to do that, unless the venue has a specific rule against it. The same rights should be given to a prayer group, of any faith - as long as they aren't physically disrupting another person by forcing them to leave the area while they pray, and aren't shouting it so loud it prevents others from working, they should be allowed to do it.


Also, if a gender-based group like the RCU is allowed to exist, then a Christian group should definitely be permitted. It isn't nearly as exclusionary as the RCU - anyone who wants to can come, not just girls. Several have said they would feel excluded if a Christian group were to be formed - if you're a guy, you literally are excluded from the RCU, and there's nothing you can do about it (short of a sex change ;)). The fact that Christians may make up a larger group of FIRSTers than girls shouldn't change anything - majorities and minorities alike should be given equal rights in a democracy.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

To be fair, this isn't true.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

It seemsthat people want to discuss other than the original topic. I have closed the thread again and deleted some of the posts. The posts were not necesarally bad but they led the thread off topic. I will reopen again Sunday sometime

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

I am re opening the thread. After much consideration I have edited the first post to be discussed as follows:

Please respond to only the above questions and no more discussions on wording or interpretations of what has been said previous. The intent of the poster (my interpretation after PMs) is that they were looking for suggestions on how to meet, where to meet and if it was even possible. There have been other meetings discussed here on CD and they were allowed. The issue is that the original poster was not quite as savvy on how to post without striking at peoples nerves. Sometimes we all say something without understanding the full impact of what we say (YES even me). It is a learning curve that we all must go through. Please be patient and tolerant of all posters here on CD and help them without attacking.

Legal jargon:

This is a free message brought to you by one of the moderators of Chief Delphi. The comments made here are the sole responsibility of the poster and may not represent those of Chief Delphi, its sponsors or others in authority. :rolleyes:

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

What more is there to be said that hasn't already been said?
This thread should just stay closed or else it'll just end up closed by the end of the day anyways.

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

Several topics seem to stir up deep feelings. This is both good and sometimes bad depending on the time -setting and circumstances. It is very clear that this topic is causing some posters to react as to not discuss the original starting post but to get heated discussions going beyond the intent of the original poster.

I would request that cool heads prevail and think about everyones right to express what they believe in, but also consider what effect the expression may have on others.

The greatness of FIRST is that the Community is so very diverse and we all get to grow in our understanding of others, their beliefs, their culture and who we are.

The moderators are doing a great job at preserving "the peace" so to speak. Please assist them in continuing to express your views but be mindful of how you are doing it. The power of FIRST is within each one of us to share and grow the mission. Let's keep focus on the mission and channel our energy to benefit the Community of FIRST.

This thread will remain closed for a period of time. What is good for FIRST and the CD Community is formost in the decision making process.

Great Job moderators!

Re: Christian FIRST Group
 

Sorry to those who started the thread. It seems that those from both sides want to debate religion instead of answering the question. I am taking on myself to close this thread. It will not be reopened. Any mods that would like to discuss please feel free to PM me but please do not reopen.

Back to robotics!!!!!