Disappointment: Autodesk awards 2007
 

I was reading on this page
Elimination of awards!?!? How does this show our animators that what they are doing is important? How does this get more teams to submit animations? No inventor awards at regionals!?!? I don't think we had them before, but we have always needed them, and to not get them again is a big disappointment. How does this take FIRST beyond the group of kids building robots in their garages? However much real engineers may play with cardboard, real engineering comes from the use of high level software, and the need for use of high level software. Not enough teams make use of this software provided to them. Do we really think they will if we say "this aspect of FIRST is not award worthy"? Did someone miss the I in FIRST? Or are there just some other compelling reasons I don't know about?

In addition, while I am very appreciative of Autodesk's continuing support of the program, I feel quite limited by limited number of licenses they provide. It is a hard thing for me to tell a student, "I know you love this software, but this student standing next to you has more of a need for it, so he can use it, and you can't." FIRST is expensive. I know we get more than we pay for, but with how much we pay, we try to make it as good of an experience for each student as possible. It is very challenging to not be able to allow every student the access to the tools (software) they need. And if you like the "level the playing field" argument, that may be applicable here as well.

Autodesk has no problem giving away free student licenses to any college student in Mechanical Engineering, Industrial design, gaming/animation, or civil engineering or architecture disciplines. Why not any high school FIRST student? Why only 10? Why only 30 day trials? Build season is ~6 weeks long. And we like to be productive pre and post season too.

I love the software. I promote it like I work for them. But the lack of awards, and the minimal number of licenses is quite disappointing.

Re: Disappointment: Autodesk awards 2007
 

To be clear, they offer a total of 10 limited licences for Inventor 11, and 5 for Max, which when installed, function as 30 day trials until activated, and after that, become one-year trials. The students.autodesk.com system (where the licences are permanent, free and for educational use only) is far more useful—but you need university student mentors to take advantage of it.

If I had to hazard a guess, this might have to do with the lack of consistency in the existing voting process. It looks like they want to use a core group of experts to evaluate all entries on a level basis, rather than try to judge each regional's winner separately. Note also that participation in the AVA and AIA are not especially high—many teams have other priorities, and this leads to regionals where these awards are bestowed upon mediocre entries, for lack of any signficant competition.

Re: Disappointment: Autodesk awards 2007
 

I really have to agree on the limited liscences. We need at least 5 in school, which leaves only five for at-home use. It leaves us pretty crippled, really. I keep bothering Mr. McGowan to get us a few more liscences, but it's expensive software...

Re: Disappointment: Autodesk awards 2007
 

I wish they would give a few more licenses of each (maybe like 15 of each? :o ), or at least have a deal where you get X amount of licenses donated but if you need/want more it is only like $100-$200 for each other license.(or like 10 extra's for $750)

Re: Disappointment: Autodesk awards 2007
 

Every year there is some sort of change and every year it seems more inane than the last one.
This is totally lame. :mad:

Re: Disappointment: Autodesk awards 2007
 

I have worked so hard to pass down my knowledge of animation down to incoming freshman. Now your telling me that all the work that will be done for the AVA entry is for nothing?

This kills a part of the FIRST community that draws in different kinds of people. Without regional competition for animation, none of the animators from other teams will see the work of others. There will be no knowledge exchange, and most of all there will be no motivation to submit an entry. I stayed in FIRST because of the AVA, I helped the team draw in people to FIRST and some join because they have an interest in animation but still learn about engineering. I'm very sure that the number of entries for the AVA will drop dramatically this year.

I am very upset at the fact that this is being done. I always had the feeling that winning at a regional level was greater than winning National because it was graded by peers who know exactly what you did to make your entry. Winning nationals seems more like a wild stab in the dark. I'm sure that the attendance at the Auto-desk booth is going to be very low this year.

Re: Disappointment: Autodesk awards 2007
 

^ i think that the fact of eliminating regional competition for animation will lower the number of entries even more since not all the teams even make it to nations ( robotics wise) to see their animation, this would be my third year doing it and both years, my animation made it to nationals but my team never went there :( and if this year, they cut the regional comp, it would really decrease my motive to create an animation im not even going to see with my own eyes in a competion! especially all those sleepless nights doing animation :o

Re: Disappointment: Autodesk awards 2007
 

This is really weird because first still has it under the 2007 regional award:
http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles...Reg_Awards.pdf
Its really a shame that this is happening.

Re: Disappointment: Autodesk awards 2007
 

Interesting. Perhaps all hope is not lost. We'll see.

Re: Disappointment: Autodesk awards 2007
 

Maybe they're encouraging the animators to revolt and take over the award for themselves (hint hint)!

Re: Disappointment: Autodesk awards 2007
 

That's crazy. 1070 has just decided to do animation and this just made the competition even harsher.

Re: Disappointment: Autodesk awards 2007
 

But for the teams going to Championships and dabbling in animations, this is actually a nice bonus (the fact that the animation competition will be small).

But hey, what am I to say?

Re: Disappointment: Autodesk awards 2007
 

here is something we can do. Some one get contact with someone who is high up in FIRST and ask them what is going on.

We can turn this around if every team writes to FIRST about how this decision will negatively effect their team. but keep in mind that you are representing your team in these letters.

I always find the Sit-and-wait approach never works out.

Re: Disappointment: Autodesk awards 2007
 

I'd be happy to write but who to? I know myself and everyone else doing animation invested a lot of time into this so we should really work together and try to do something about it.

Re: Disappointment: Autodesk awards 2007
 

My main question is why?

Having regional awards was certainly better, but I can live with only having one award. I would really like to know why the regional awards were cut.

And Burman, the FIRST website no longer lists the award.
http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles...Reg_Awards.pdf

I'm all for contacting whoever as a group.

Re: Disappointment: Autodesk awards 2007
 

Perhaps I can pose one reason for why they may have done this.

1504 has been competing for 2 years now. We have never created an animation, nor have we (at least that I know of) ever voted for one. We never had anyone who knew enough about them who felt competant to judge. Now, if you go by that line of logic (with the understanding that less than half of the teams at any given regional will submit an animation), you have only a couple (I think that I've heard of regionals with less than 5 submissions) of animations being judged by a very few people.
Perhaps FIRST thought it better to let the few animations that do exist all be judged by professionals?

On the same note, it is kind of saddening that they will only be judged at the Championships. This will be our first year submitting and I think that this policy will discourage many teams from even putting forth the effort.

So the solution? Up to each individual. If you feel strongly, talk to other team members and write a letter to FIRST expressing your team's dismay at the new policy. Remember to be polite and courteous in your expressing, saying "you beeeeeeeeeeeep that's not beeeeeeeeeeeeeping fair" won't help (as I've seen many a CDer do in the past when angry).

Best of luck to those of you hoping to change the policy!

Re: Disappointment: Autodesk awards 2007
 

I believe the regional awards were voted on by peer animators. (i.e., Only the teams which submitted animations were allowed to vote, and a team could not vote for themself.) Students who have gone through the process, and addressed the judging categories of the award are more than competent to vote on their peers.

This contradicts some of the reasoning given when they began the Regional Awards. Back then the argument was there were TOO MANY animations for the professionals to go through. Having Regional Awards would filter out the lesser deserving ones to reduce the workload on the Championship judges. Now the workload has been increased beyond where it was when they began Regionals.

Inconsistency in the Visualization Award over the years has been a continuing frustration for the students who participate. There are many threads in the archives discussing these problems.

Re: Disappointment: Autodesk awards 2007
 

It was because of Autodesk's indifference to the animators concerns that G-3D came into existence.
Looks like it's time to fire it back up.

Re: Disappointment: Autodesk awards 2007
 

There are things that can be done about this, but they are not going to happen unless someone (the teams) yell about it and protest this. A little lobbying from all the animators/teams to FIRST on this topic could help. They need to know that this is objectionable, and the animators and teams are upset about it. So you need to get organized and get a group message put together - fast!
We need amunition for the fight with Autodesk over this (they are the ones deleting the award, not FIRST). We need to get a consensus of upset opinions that this is a bad thing that we can then take forward to FIRST and Autodesk.
We have help from an influential person in FIRST (who I am not at liberty to disclose who it is, so don't ask) who is willing to assist us in our fight for the right to party but we the animators have to take the first step to make it happen. So step up, guys!

Re: Disappointment: Autodesk awards 2007
 

Ok -
could we maybe start a list here with all of your thoughts?
I've read through once or twice and have 4 things that are coming up in this thread. I'll go through again and see if there are more. Please add, help me out. I am not an animator but I have great respect for your efforts and your work. A 418 alumnus from 2003 taught me to be appreciative.

1. not enough licenses distributed (is this part of what you would want to include in at this time?)
2. has not been and is not consistent for the participants from year to year.
3. not having a peer vote on a regional level would

a. increase the volume of the work load on the Championship level by not having the submissions judged at the regional level
b. decrease the value of the award in that peers and their FIRST mentors who have been through the process, understand it and can appreciate the work and effort of the submissions when voting

4. as evidenced in this thread, more teams have become involved and have actively campaigned and recruited new members in joining their FIRST teams solely for this animation opportunity, only to find that the judging has changed significantly.

What else?
If you don't like any of the wordings and want to add/delete, let me know.
Jane

Re: Disappointment: Autodesk awards 2007
 

Sounds about right.

Re: Disappointment: Autodesk awards 2007
 

stats
history
alumni college decisions/choices, etc.
might be helpful...

Re: Disappointment: Autodesk awards 2007
 

That one could take a while.

Re: Disappointment: Autodesk awards 2007
 

I PM'd some questions to you KoKoEd -

Re: Disappointment: Autodesk awards 2007
 

I'm getting some response via PMs and I think I will attempt to convey a few of my thoughts that have developed as a result.

- animation has been gaining interest over the past few years and team members are graduating from high school and going on to major in this area in college because of their exposure to this part of the FIRST competition.
- this award is a technical award that deserves attention, recognition, and respect on its own merit
- as much hard work and effort goes into many of these animations as into the robots that the FIRST teams build and deserves that recognition and support
- on the regional level, we could work to find an even, more balanced approach to the judging of the award and as part of recognizing the impact and importance of this, find better methods of display/presentation for the judging. A small screen in a small room may not be the best method.
- teams could find better ways to acknowledge Autodesk in press releases, interviews, promotion, marketing - our relationship with our sponsors is a partnership.

I think that's it for now. Any comments are great.
KoKoEd and I are working to put something together, we'll let you know as we go. As Ed has stated, this has to happen quickly, so if anyone wants to jump in here and lend a hand, cool beans, just PM me.
Jane

Re: Disappointment: Autodesk awards 2007
 

Below is what we have come up with to submit to FIRST and to Autodesk. Please read it and make comments/suggestions either here in the thread or via PM. We will let you know how we are going to do the petition or letter. (I checked with one of my attorney friends and a petition can be signed by minors. If anyone knows any differently, please let me know that as well.) Thank you and stayed tuned.
----

- the animators put in as much, and sometimes more, effort into the creation of the animations as the other students put into the creation of the robots

- this is the only incentive program that acknowledges and recognizes their efforts

- this is one of the few parts of the FIRST program that demonstrates that FIRST is interested in inspiring students about more than just robots; that technical animation is also a valid technical field that deserves recognition and respect

- the regional animation awards program is very important to the animation teams, and a major motivation for their efforts

- reducing the animation awards to just a national award will significantly reduce the level of interest in the animation competition - nearly 80% of the teams will not be attending the Championships in Atlanta and will not be in attendance for the presentation of the award, and will not pursue it for that reason

- without the regional animation awards program, we predict a significant reduction in the number of teams participating in the animation competition, impacting the entire season/program

- even if Autodesk will not sponsor the award, it should still be given out (either sponsored by someone else, or without specific sponsorship) at the regional level; the winner can be selected by popular vote, judging like the website awards, or animators selection

- in the entire history of the FIRST program, a competitive technical award has never been removed from the program; does Autodesk want their name to be associated with the first time this happens?

Re: Disappointment: Autodesk awards 2007
 

That sounds great, Jane. I think you covered just about everything.

In the past, the regional animation awards were voted on by animators from each team.

Re: Disappointment: Autodesk awards 2007
 

(I sent this to Jane in a PM earlier.)

Hi Jane,

Thanks for doing this to try to get the regional animation awards back.

I want to add that the elimination of regional awards will discourage teams (especially those with less experience in animation) from creating an entry when they know that there will only be one winner out of all the FIRST teams. Regional awards also provide feedback and identification of teams who are the best in the animation area. Identification of more of these teams is helpful to newer teams seeking animation advice and provides more models. Identification at the regional level means that teams in every region are able to meet successful animators from local teams.

Second, I think that a petition signed by FIRST students and mentors would appear kind of "out of the blue" to Autodesk, especially if the community has yet to bring our concerns to their attention for the first time. Perhaps it would be more effective to frame this as a letter or sign-on letter. It also might help to contact FIRST Headquarters about this (if nobody has done this yet). There could be reasons for this big change that we haven't considered, or reasons to change what we're asking.

Thanks,
Dan

Re: Disappointment: Autodesk awards 2007
 

I asked Dan if he would consider posting his private message to me. This is the caliber of student commitment we are privileged to work with in FIRST. It humbles me.

Through KoKoEd's lead, this is becoming a group effort and it is a privilege to be a part of it. Thank you.
Jane

Re: Disappointment: Autodesk awards 2007
 

Another student animator here annoyed about the elimination of the regional awards. I'm the lead animator for team 114, and we got Honorable Mention last year at nats. Here are some of the reasons I want the regionals back:

Regionals encourage rookie teams and teams less experienced in the animation department. It gives them a shot at getting an award, but with the new system Autodesk is imposing, a team has to be one of the top 5 in the country to even have a shot at getting an award. So any team who isn't confident that they're good enough to compete at that level will have no motivation to compete at all!

Also, what if there are more than five teams that are worthy of some kind of award? The regionals allow teams to get rewarded for excellence if they're the best in their area, even if they aren't the best in the country. With the new systems, if there are more than five excellent animations some of them won't get any recognition at all.

The regional awards help local animators to meet each other and network. I've met a few other animators at regionals with whom I keep up a steady correspondence. My team doesn't go to nationals, so without regional animation awards there would be no reason for me to even attend the regionals and I wouldn't get a chance to meet other animators.


Some things Autodesk should also consider:

Why are you trying to decrease students' exposure to 3dsmax? Showing award-winning animations up on the big screen at regionals gets us interested in your product, and now you've done away with that.

Also, your judges will be deluged with animations that haven't been filtered through the regional judging process. If you thought the judging process was hard before, think how hard it's going to be now.

You are decreasing the prestige of animators within our teams by making it harder for us to get recognition for our work. That's not going to inspire new students to become animators. What chance does a newbie have at being one of the top 5 teams in the country? Your new policies are going to make many potential animators give up before they start.



I want to email all of my thoughts to Autodesk. My animation partner feels the same way I do, and he'll email them, too. Does anyone know who specifically to email? If I don't receive any suggestions soon, I'll email Kelly Stanphill, who I think has some association with the animation awards.

Re: Disappointment: Autodesk awards 2007
 

Already handled.
Make sure and sign your name.

Re: Disappointment: Autodesk awards 2007
 

I was actually reading up on this. I have been reading about 3dSM and have been taking an Inventor class just so for the first time we could submit something decent to the competition. This just discourages me, because on a regional level I can see what needs to be done and how things need to fit better together to win regionals but now I have to go straight to the national level. In my opinion you cant go from novice to expert. You have to reach experienced or advanced or somewhere in the middle. Horrible decision in my opinion...


Pavan.

Re: Disappointment: Autodesk awards 2007
 

I feel similarly--we actually have a few people willing to work on animation this year, and we've been training on 3ds max to prepare, but this is somewhat discouraging. We wanted to just test the waters this year and get more animation experience, but this makes it more difficult; still, we'll probably try to submit something. Now if they would only tell us the AVA theme for this year!

Re: Disappointment: Autodesk awards 2007
 

Congratulations (see Update #6) - http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles...on _2007_.pdf