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Conor Ryan 19-12-2006 18:18
Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
So today they released the first four sections of this year's manual, now granted every word in the manual is important, however some require additional attention. That's what this thread is for, drawing attention to the minor details that some of us will trip up on if we don't see.

Just in what I've read so far I've found a few:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2007 FIRST Manual
3.3.4 NEW: Mandatory Safety Glasses - They aren’t forehead protectors
FIRST requires all teams to bring and supply, for each competition, ANSI-approved safety glasses for its team members, mentors, and guests. Students and adult team members an guests must wear them when:
• Uncrating the robot
• NEW: At all times while in team Pit Stations and everyone in the general Pit as well
• Working on the robot
• When observing any robot building/repair work
• While competing – mentor, human player, 2 operators
Operators, players, and mentors will not be allowed on the competition field without approved safety glasses. Regular glasses do not qualify as safety glasses, and you must use approved safety goggles over them. Goggles are not required over glasses only if the glasses are ANSI-approved with side shields.
This next one is rather important for everyone out there that uses a cart to move your robot around:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2007 FIRST Manual
3.3.7 NEW: Robot Carts
To protect team members and mentors from muscle strains and other injuries as they transport the heavy robot from the Pit to the competition area, we recommend that team members and mentors use some type of cart, keeping the following in mind.
• Carts must remain in the team pit area when not in use for robot transportation
• All carts should fit through a standard 30-inch door
• Wheels on the cart must not damage site flooring
• Do not add music to the cart.
Prior to competing, your competition team should practice lifting your robot onto and off your cart. Refer to the “FIRST Robotics Competition Team Safety Manual” for robot lifting techniques. By practicing these safe techniques, your team members will also develop a quick, fluid routine.
Here is another for all of you out there who like to work on their robot
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2007 FIRST Manual
3.8.3 NEW: Pit Closing Etiquette
For many reasons, it is necessary that teams adhere to the Pit closing time each day. Many people working in the Pit are volunteers and deserve to have a set closing time met. Assign team members and mentors to the clean up/organization of your pit station. The mentor in charge of your robot shipment must take care of the shipping process early with a plan in place to have everything packed and out the door by closing time. This means having a crew ready to get your robot crated and labeled for shipment on the last day. When your play in the competition ends, pack your crate; notify the shipping/drayage company that it is available for removal and clean up your area. It is not gracious to the Pit staff or the drayage company to leave these details to the last minute. This advance preparation also applies to teams in the event finals, especially at the Championship. The shipping and exit process for the Championship is huge.

People are tired.
Do your part.
Remember all the broken crates last year? Looks like the stiffened up the rules (and crates too).
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2007 FIRST Manual
4.3.1. NEW* Crate Construction Specifications
Build your crate(s) with more than one shipment and season in mind. Remember weight of your materials. For instance, if 3/8” or 1/2” plywood is sturdy enough,
heavier, costlier 3/4” product?
All Crates must:
1) Comply with the “Wood Materials Regulations Across U.S. Borders” the crate ships into the U.S.
2) Loaded crate must weigh 400 pounds or less in order to avoid charges
3) Be sturdily built to prevent damage to your equipment
4) *Use 3/8” or 1/2” plywood
5) *Use 3/8” or 1/2” Oriented Strand Board (OSB), a solid panel quality with no laps, gaps, or voids.
6) *Medium density fiberboard (MDF) is Not recommended for the material makes crate construction too heavy, and MDF can if the correct safety precautions are not taken. MDF contains formaldehyde, which may be released from the material through and cause irritation to the eyes and lungs.
7) *Don’t use particleboard because it collects moisture that adds cause the crate to fall apart. Remember, your crate may be exposed
when loading and unloading trucks.
8) Ensure your crate construction can withstand stacking during
9) "Sit" on 2 pieces of 4" by 4" lumber, spaced at least 28" apart forklift.
10) Have a footprint no greater than 4' by 4' and be no taller than
maximum includes the 4" by 4" lumber mentioned above.
Remember, all crates most pass all 10 rules!


Ok, thats all I've seen from what I picked up, what other rules have you seen that are interesting from this year (particularly the new rules)?

chris31 19-12-2006 18:22
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
The saftey glasses for everyone in the put area was required at the VCU regional. So thats not new to those people. However no music on the cart is a bummer as one of our members does alot of work on cars and wanted to do sound and lights for our cart.

Greg Marra 19-12-2006 18:25
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
• Do not add music to the cart.
:(

Lil' Lavery 19-12-2006 18:29
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
• Do not add music to the cart.
While music carts may be cool and all, they really don't serve any practical purpose other than being cool, and are kinda distracting in the pit/transit area. Pit+Tools+Distraction=bad

Richard Wallace 19-12-2006 18:46
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
This one isn't a rule, but it is an excellent suggestion:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Section 2 Team Organization
2.5.1 Game Rules Monitor
Responsibilities
Learn Game Rules: Read and understand the rules of the game and communicate them to the team members so they know the ins and outs of the game.
Know Point System: Be sure the team understands the system; implement the best strategy.
Know Penalties: Be sure all mentors and operators know and understand all penalties.
Learn Web System: Check the on-line Manual for rules, changes, and web-based question and answer system.
Monitor Team Updates: Communicate any changes in the updates to the team.
Some of you students out there may be asking yourselves, "can I aspire to be a FIRST legend and all-around great person, like (e.g.) Billfred?"

Becoming your team's Game Rules Monitor would be an outstanding way to start down that path to glory.:)

ChrisH 19-12-2006 18:57
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
For the past several years we have been using the same crate. It has a welded aluminum frame and skin on a wood base with provision for forklift handling. When closed it will support a couple of grown men on top (approx 400lbs).

But from the sound of these rules it is no longer acceptable. Have they opened Q&A yet?

BTW at least one damaged crate I saw met the above specifications. But in that case it looked like the damage was not inadvertent. Seeing as it was all in the area around the lock

Joe Matt 19-12-2006 19:03
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 543159)
While music carts may be cool and all, they really don't serve any practical purpose other than being cool, and are kinda distracting in the pit/transit area. Pit+Tools+Distraction=bad
I agree, IN THE PIT. Now, when you're oustide and stuff (like one team did in ATL) and play music, I think that's fine. As they said, no music, not no speakers.

chris31 19-12-2006 19:15
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Matt (Post 543168)
I agree, IN THE PIT. Now, when you're oustide and stuff (like one team did in ATL) and play music, I think that's fine. As they said, no music, not no speakers.
Agreed. In the pits it would be a distraction but what about outside of the pits? Well it says " • Do not add music to the cart." so what good are speakers without music.

Lil' Lavery 19-12-2006 19:19
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris31 (Post 543175)
Agreed. In the pits it would be a distraction but what about outside of the pits? Well it says " • Do not add music to the cart." so what good are speakers without music.
Personally I plan on going around the pits blasting audiobooks.... ;)

EricH 19-12-2006 19:20
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris31 (Post 543175)
Agreed. In the pits it would be a distraction but what about outside of the pits? Well it says " • Do not add music to the cart." so what good are speakers without music.
Playing music-particularly loud music-has always been frowned upon for a number of reasons (pit announcements being one of them). However, it has been hard to enforce. Now, they are making it easier on themselves by making this rule. I also saw something about the cart must be in the pit unless it is transporting the robot, so no music outside from the cart.

ChuckDickerson 19-12-2006 19:28
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
4.3.4. Required Crate Contents
Teams must include the robot and may include the two batteries and other equipment. When shipping the batteries in the crate, carefully and completely follow all instructions listed above in “Battery Packaging.”
1) Non-North American teams cannot ship batteries with their crate(s). They must make arrangements with FIRST to pick up a battery for competition at their initial event.)
2) SAFETY NOTE: Don’t pack all of your safety glasses in your crate. You will need them when uncrating!
FIRST will allow you to keep all of your robot controls (Operator Interface, OI power supply, joysticks, etc.) and not ship them with your robot on Tuesday, February 20, 2007. This will allow you to continue to work on your programming. If you decide not to ship controls with your robot, remember to bring them to your initial competition. FIRST does not have replacement controls.
It looks like they have cleared up one of the questions that comes up year after year. You do not HAVE to ship the 2 batteries but you MAY if you want to. I suppose you cannot ship more than 2 though?

It also looks like they are still going to get hit with the obligatory "Can we keep the Robot Controller? Is it part of the robot controls?" question. I am pretty sure we couldn't keep is in 2005 and 2006 but I seem to remember we could in 2004. Someone correct me if I am remembering incorrectly. In any case, if we can't keep the RC the what is the point of the statement "This will allow you to continue to work on your programming."?

IndySam 19-12-2006 19:29
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
• Do not add music to the cart.


I know you younguns may not be happy but I say thank God!

Sorry

Andrew Blair 19-12-2006 19:36
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepWater (Post 543182)
It looks like they have cleared up one of the questions that comes up year after year. You do not HAVE to ship the 2 batteries but you MAY if you want to. I suppose you cannot ship more than 2 though?

It also looks like they are still going to get hit with the obligatory "Can we keep the Robot Controller? Is it part of the robot controls?" question. I am pretty sure we couldn't keep is in 2005 and 2006 but I seem to remember we could in 2004. Someone correct me if I am remembering incorrectly. In any case, if we can't keep the RC the what is the point of the statement "This will allow you to continue to work on your programming."?
My question- what happened to the "no programming after Ship" ?

clean399 19-12-2006 19:39
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
It does say in there "to continue to work on your programming" assuming you will download it to the RC you would keep it.

lukevanoort 19-12-2006 19:46
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Does anyone know how you could go about finding out if your glasses are ANSI approved? I know mine are some sort of shatter resistant plastic, but I have no idea how to find out if they're ANSI approved. I probably would use goggles anyway (my glasses are rather small) but it'd be nice to be able to just put on the side shields and take off the goggles for a short period of time to let some air in.

Bharat Nain 19-12-2006 19:50
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 543159)
While music carts may be cool and all, they really don't serve any practical purpose other than being cool, and are kinda distracting in the pit/transit area. Pit+Tools+Distraction=bad
Thank you FIRST for that rule. It gets kind of annoying hearing the same music from the same cart 50 gazillion times and they think they're cool. Everything goes well in moderation.

EricH 19-12-2006 19:53
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukevanoort (Post 543192)
Does anyone know how you could go about finding out if your glasses are ANSI approved? I know mine are some sort of shatter resistant plastic, but I have no idea how to find out if they're ANSI approved. I probably would use goggles anyway (my glasses are rather small) but it'd be nice to be able to just put on the side shields and take off the goggles for a short period of time to let some air in.
I'd look on the package, if you have it. For regular glasses, you'd probably have to ask.

Joe Matt 19-12-2006 19:55
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 543177)
Personally I plan on going around the pits blasting audiobooks.... ;)
iTunes currently has the John Hodgman book available for free Sean......

http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/M...94253&s=143441

Tristan Lall 19-12-2006 19:55
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepWater (Post 543182)
It looks like they have cleared up one of the questions that comes up year after year. You do not HAVE to ship the 2 batteries but you MAY if you want to. I suppose you cannot ship more than 2 though?
I don't see why you couldn't ship more than two. Call it "other equipment".... As long as it's legal in the countries through which the robot is travelling, and safe to transport, I don't see an issue.

But I guess it's time for a robot rules question that follows directly from this: is the (one, I assume) main battery considered part of the robot, and if so, is there any specific exemption from it being shipped with the rest of the robot. I know, I'm being pedantic, but since non-North-American teams aren't supposed to ship batteries in their crates, and yet we're presumably supposed to ship the robot in its entirety, what becomes of the battery (a robot part)? Can a North American team decide it wants to ship zero batteries in its crate, or is it required to pack one as a robot part (detached from the robot, of course), to satisfy the need to ship the entire robot?

Also, though I hesitate to call the crate specifications "rules", you can't really follow all 10, because some of them aren't things that you must do (e.g. "All Crates must: *Don’t use particleboard..." is a grammatical abomination). But despite the poor phrasing, I think the intent is obvious.

Jeremiah Johnson 19-12-2006 20:35
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris31 (Post 543175)
Agreed. In the pits it would be a distraction but what about outside of the pits? Well it says " • Do not add music to the cart." so what good are speakers without music.
Removable cd player?

Raul 19-12-2006 20:46
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisH (Post 543166)
For the past several years we have been using the same crate. It has a welded aluminum frame and skin on a wood base with provision for forklift handling. When closed it will support a couple of grown men on top (approx 400lbs).

But from the sound of these rules it is no longer acceptable. Have they opened Q&A yet?

BTW at least one damaged crate I saw met the above specifications. But in that case it looked like the damage was not inadvertent. Seeing as it was all in the area around the lock
Chris,

That same rule has been in the manual for many past years. They are not saying it is against the rules to have your crate weigh more than 400lbs. They are just saying that you will have to pay an extra fee at the competition if it does.

Raul

Donut 19-12-2006 22:40
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul (Post 543222)
That same rule has been in the manual for many past years. They are not saying it is against the rules to have your crate weigh more than 400lbs. They are just saying that you will have to pay an extra fee at the competition if it does.
This is true; are crate last year required $50 extra to ship because it was over the 400 lb. limit. I'm not worried at all about it getting busted though.

lukevanoort 19-12-2006 22:52
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul (Post 543222)
Chris,

That same rule has been in the manual for many past years. They are not saying it is against the rules to have your crate weigh more than 400lbs. They are just saying that you will have to pay an extra fee at the competition if it does.

Raul
I think what he means is that he's worried about the rule below since their crate does not use OSB or plywood.
Quote:
All Crates must:
...
4) *Use 3/8” or 1/2” plywood
5) *Use 3/8” or 1/2” Oriented Strand Board (OSB), a solid panel quality with no laps, gaps, or voids.
...

Ricky Q. 19-12-2006 23:02
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukevanoort (Post 543273)
I think what he means is that he's worried about the rule below since their crate does not use OSB or plywood.
I believe the rules have said that wood is required for a couple years. Our crate does not used wood or OSB either and has been perfectly fine.

Brandon Holley 19-12-2006 23:53
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
As much as some people may think of the music coming form carts as distracting, it really serves a good purpose. We all know how difficult it can be maneuvering your cart from the field to the pit or vice versa...the music may seem obnoxious but it makes life so easy because people who are having conversations in the pit hear the music and immediately move out of the way. If you ask me its helps safety.

Ian Curtis 20-12-2006 00:02
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Does anyone other than myself find the following statement rather disconcerting?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Section 3 "At the Events" 3.3.4
• While competing – mentor, human player, 2 operators
Last years manual refers to coaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Section 7 "At the Events" 7.3.4
Operators, players, and coaches will not be allowed on the competition field without them.
As I see it they have either renamed the coach, which would be rather random but I wouldn't have a problem, or eliminated student coaches.

On the bright side, it looks like we can continue to contemplate the possible duties of the human player as they will be making a return. :)

eugenebrooks 20-12-2006 00:10
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Blair (Post 543188)
My question- what happened to the "no programming after Ship" ?
This statement also appears in the 2006 crate contents rules,
so I would not get excited yet...

Eugene

eugenebrooks 20-12-2006 01:06
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukevanoort (Post 543192)
Does anyone know how you could go about finding out if your glasses are ANSI approved? I know mine are some sort of shatter resistant plastic, but I have no idea how to find out if they're ANSI approved. I probably would use goggles anyway (my glasses are rather small) but it'd be nice to be able to just put on the side shields and take off the goggles for a short period of time to let some air in.
The following guideline is listed elsewhere in the manual posted so far:
"Approved glasses have “ANSI Z87” imprinted somewhere on the frame."
This rule is very specific.

Jak DiGriz 20-12-2006 02:00
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
You guys...

It's what, 10 weeks until the first competition, and you all are going through rules on pit behavior and approved safety goggles with a fine-toothed comb! Not only is this ridiculously over the top, there is a good chance that any rule combing done today will be forgotten 8 weeks down the line, and you'll have to go over the rules AGAIN.

Use your time for something more... interesting. Like trying to get the game leaked. All FIRST volunteers know the game 2 weeks in advance. They're just sworn to secrecy and will disavow all knowledge! But seriously. They know the game.

BobC 20-12-2006 06:30
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Also once they release game rules, make sure you read the rules before you ask a question in the Q and A area. It seems like 75% of the questions asked are in the rules or repeats of previous asked and answered questions.

MikeDubreuil 20-12-2006 09:25
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eugenebrooks (Post 543306)
The following guideline is listed elsewhere in the manual posted so far:
"Approved glasses have “ANSI Z87” imprinted somewhere on the frame."
This rule is very specific.
I buy my safety glasses from Safety Glasses USA. I find their glasses to be cheap and stylish. I have never had any problems even with my small orders (2 or 3 pairs < $10.) This page on their site talks about the Z87 rating.

Ben Piecuch 20-12-2006 09:31
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Jak,

I believe they posted these rules early for the exact reason of letting us pour over them. How many teams immediately jump into the game and robot design, and overlook the shipping, competition, and safety requirements? I know that we don't even look at the shipping rules and procedures until the weekend before ship!

Take the time now to understand and question the rules. FIRST is making it easier for us, so that we don't need to cram everything into the 6 week build period.

BEN

RoboMom 20-12-2006 09:42
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak DiGriz (Post 543316)
All FIRST volunteers know the game 2 weeks in advance. They're just sworn to secrecy and will disavow all knowledge! But seriously. They know the game.
Really?!
I guess I'm hanging out with the wrong volunteers...

Conor Ryan 20-12-2006 09:53
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak DiGriz (Post 543316)
You guys...

It's what, 10 weeks until the first competition, and you all are going through rules on pit behavior and approved safety goggles with a fine-toothed comb! Not only is this ridiculously over the top, there is a good chance that any rule combing done today will be forgotten 8 weeks down the line, and you'll have to go over the rules AGAIN.

Use your time for something more... interesting. Like trying to get the game leaked. All FIRST volunteers know the game 2 weeks in advance. They're just sworn to secrecy and will disavow all knowledge! But seriously. They know the game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Piecuch (Post 543368)
Jak,

I believe they posted these rules early for the exact reason of letting us pour over them. How many teams immediately jump into the game and robot design, and overlook the shipping, competition, and safety requirements? I know that we don't even look at the shipping rules and procedures until the weekend before ship!

Take the time now to understand and question the rules. FIRST is making it easier for us, so that we don't need to cram everything into the 6 week build period.

BEN
  1. Combing over the rules now can lead to clarifications later, leading to a better game for all of us.
  2. It's good to be prepared for the road ahead (just in case the robot needs more last minute work, or you need to budget for a new crate)
  3. Safety rules should apply to building the robot, not just at competition
  4. It's just ungracious and unprofessional to get the game ahead of time, it takes all the fun out of the idea of a deadline.
Now back to your scheduled topic.

Mike Schroeder 20-12-2006 10:01
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MORT~11 (Post 543292)
As much as some people may think of the music coming form carts as distracting, it really serves a good purpose. We all know how difficult it can be maneuvering your cart from the field to the pit or vice versa...the music may seem obnoxious but it makes life so easy because people who are having conversations in the pit hear the music and immediately move out of the way. If you ask me its helps safety.

also look at it this way, with loud music playing next to you, how are you supposed to hear important announcements that the Pit Announcer makes

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboMom
Really?!
I guess I'm hanging out with the wrong volunteers...
you and me both

JamesBrown 20-12-2006 10:08
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iCurtis (Post 543294)
Does anyone other than myself find the following statement rather disconcerting?



Last years manual refers to coaches...



As I see it they have either renamed the coach, which would be rather random but I wouldn't have a problem, or eliminated student coaches.

On the bright side, it looks like we can continue to contemplate the possible duties of the human player as they will be making a return. :)
Quote:
These are for the 2 operators, 1 human player, and 1 coach/mentor. The badge with the dot is the mentor’s. The mentor can be an adult or student. He or she cannot score points or operate the robot.
That seems to clarify that a coach can still be a student.


James


Edit: I would also like to thank whoever decided to mark things with the word New in red, it makes it very easy to find changes.

trilogism 20-12-2006 10:27
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobC (Post 543336)
It seems like 75% of the questions asked are . . . or repeats of previous asked and answered questions.
I understand frustation like this when these threads are relatively small, but once everything gets going, and these threads are >50 pages long, its going to be nearly impossible to read every single post.

Richard Wallace 20-12-2006 10:50
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboMom (Post 543371)
Really?!
I guess I'm hanging out with the wrong volunteers...
I fairly certain that only the GDC and FIRST senior management know the game before kickoff.

Some key volunteers find out about field elements and gamepieces in advance (starting a few weeks ago), but these adventurous souls must:

1) have no team affiliation, and 2) sign a secrecy agreement.

I know the guy who does this mostly thankless job for the St. Louis region -- he's building whatever it is in his basement right now (and cursing the incomplete and ever changing documentation), so I won't be visiting his house until after kick-off.

Joe Matt 20-12-2006 11:20
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard (Post 543394)
I fairly certain that only the GDC and FIRST senior management know the game before kickoff.

Some key volunteers find out about field elements and gamepieces in advance (starting a few weeks ago), but these adventurous souls must:

1) have no team affiliation, and 2) sign a secrecy agreement.

I know the guy who does this mostly thankless job for the St. Louis region -- he's building whatever it is in his basement right now (and cursing the incomplete and ever changing documentation), so I won't be visiting his house until after kick-off.
Don't forget those few individuals who get to build the field the day before at the kick-off events, but are kept locked in the room till the game is shown. :P

ChrisH 20-12-2006 12:16
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul (Post 543222)
Chris,

That same rule has been in the manual for many past years. They are not saying it is against the rules to have your crate weigh more than 400lbs. They are just saying that you will have to pay an extra fee at the competition if it does.

Raul
I wasn't concerned with the weight. Empty, we have one of the lightest crates around. What I'm concerned with is that they are apparently mandating the use of plywood for crate construction. There are other alternatives that can be made lighter and are just as effective.

On the other hand if we need to build a new, conforming crate I'd rather get started now. Assuming they don't declare the crate to be part of the robot and therefore must be built during Build season in another, yet to be revealed, section of the rules.

Jherbie53 20-12-2006 14:07
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MORT~11 (Post 543292)
As much as some people may think of the music coming form carts as distracting, it really serves a good purpose. We all know how difficult it can be maneuvering your cart from the field to the pit or vice versa...the music may seem obnoxious but it makes life so easy because people who are having conversations in the pit hear the music and immediately move out of the way. If you ask me its helps safety.
You should ask people too move, rather than assume they will move. Also it is hard to hear the pit announcements with all the other noise in the pits. I like that they said your cart needs to be in your pit area when not transporting your robot. It gets annoying when peoples carts start getting left in the way a little bit. For the most part we just leave BOB on the cart and work on him there.

Sgraff_SRHS06 20-12-2006 20:05
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by IndySam (Post 543184)
• Do not add music to the cart.


I know you younguns may not be happy but I say thank God!

Sorry
There'll still be cheesy music playing at the regionals! So whats worse, the cheesy music or your own music banging on top of it?

generalbrando 20-12-2006 21:33
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
I agree completely with Ben and Conor about releasing these rules early. For one thing, the change to using the ANSI Z87 standard is incredibly important. I've seen countless people wearing standard eye glasses with those flimsy side-shields. Those don't work. No, no. They REALLY don't because your glasses aren't safety glasses to begin with.

I am posing a challenge to everyone who uses power tools: Take a pair of real safety glasses (they have "Z87" or "Z87+" imprinted in small letters near the edge of the lens). Remove the lens from the frame (it should snap apart - you don't have to break it). Now take a drill with a phillips bit and put a deck screw into the lens. Awesome, huh? It DOESN'T crack. Now take the same lens and hold it steady on a flat surface. Take your favorite hammer and hammer the lens (not the screw). Really hammer it. It doesn't shatter, it only scratches it!

Now are you convinced? If not, it's your sight that's at risk.

P.S. Please don't use that pair of safety glasses again :) But you should keep them around to demonstrate to those who complain about this requirement.

Protronie 21-12-2006 09:18
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by IndySam (Post 543184)
• Do not add music to the cart.


I know you younguns may not be happy but I say thank God!

Sorry
I'll second that. :cool:

I haven't read anything about no I-pods with ear buds yet. :rolleyes:

Dave Scheck 21-12-2006 09:42
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbrando (Post 543592)
I am posing a challenge to everyone who uses power tools: Take a pair of real safety glasses (they have "Z87" or "Z87+" imprinted in small letters near the edge of the lens). Remove the lens from the frame (it should snap apart - you don't have to break it). Now take a drill with a phillips bit and put a deck screw into the lens. Awesome, huh? It DOESN'T crack. Now take the same lens and hold it steady on a flat surface. Take your favorite hammer and hammer the lens (not the screw). Really hammer it. It doesn't shatter, it only scratches it!
.... but don't forget to wear safety glasses while trying this experiment...an eye injury doing that would not only be tragic, but it would be pretty ironic :cool:

hallk 21-12-2006 16:59
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Maybe it is just me but is Fedex only shipping for one regional and nationals? And the crate can weigh up to 600lbs for Fedex to take it?
I sure hope I read that wrong because our crate is on the beefy side.

chris31 21-12-2006 17:37
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hallk (Post 544081)
Maybe it is just me but is Fedex only shipping for one regional and nationals? And the crate can weigh up to 600lbs for Fedex to take it?
I sure hope I read that wrong because our crate is on the beefy side.
2) Loaded crate must weigh 400 pounds or less in order to avoid charges

Imajie 21-12-2006 17:41
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hallk (Post 544081)
Maybe it is just me but is Fedex only shipping for one regional and nationals? And the crate can weigh up to 600lbs for Fedex to take it?
I sure hope I read that wrong because our crate is on the beefy side.
Fedex will ship to ONE regional, the Championships, and they will ship it back for free. Anything more you have to pay them to ship it.

gburlison 21-12-2006 18:22
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hallk (Post 544081)
Maybe it is just me but is Fedex only shipping for one regional and nationals? And the crate can weigh up to 600lbs for Fedex to take it?
I sure hope I read that wrong because our crate is on the beefy side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris31 (Post 544104)
2) Loaded crate must weigh 400 pounds or less in order to avoid charges
But if it weighs more than 600 pounds, FedEx may not take it.

4.9.7. FedEx Weight Limit
Crates cannot exceed 600 pounds.
FIRST pays drayage costs for one crate up to 400 pounds only. Teams pay the
REMEMBER:
drayage cost in excess of 400 pounds, rounded up to the next hundredweight.

Alexa Stott 21-12-2006 19:08
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MORT~11 (Post 543292)
As much as some people may think of the music coming form carts as distracting, it really serves a good purpose. We all know how difficult it can be maneuvering your cart from the field to the pit or vice versa...the music may seem obnoxious but it makes life so easy because people who are having conversations in the pit hear the music and immediately move out of the way. If you ask me its helps safety.
Unless you're in the pits trying to communicate with a teammate that you are, say, turning the robot on and warning them to be careful. In that case, loud music can prevent your teammate from hearing your warning.

Another thing with the music-I find that when judges are asking me questions, it's really hard to hear them because so many teams have loud, bad music playing. It is also difficult for them to hear us when we answer their questions. Of course, the arena is already loud because of music playing by the field and people cheering, but individual teams blasting music from their carts because they think it's cool that they put speakers into their cart is just plain annoying and excessive.

Richard Wallace 22-12-2006 10:38
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard (Post 543394)
I fairly certain that only the GDC and FIRST senior management know the game before kickoff.

Some key volunteers find out about field elements and gamepieces in advance (starting a few weeks ago), but these adventurous souls must:

1) have no team affiliation, and 2) sign a secrecy agreement.

I know the guy who does this mostly thankless job for the St. Louis region -- he's building whatever it is in his basement right now (and cursing the incomplete and ever changing documentation), so I won't be visiting his house until after kick-off.
Update from the aforementioned adventurous soul: construction of field elements for kick-off is apparently proceeding, but with some frustration.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unnamed Underappreciated Volunteer
It is certainly helpful to have a well-equipped cabinet making shop in order to generate all of the pieces required. You cannot build this with a circular saw and a drill. I think that they should lock Dean and Woody and Dave in a room and not let them out until they build one of these or start hallucinating. The results could be interesting and the Kick-Off would be in February with probably only one of the aforementioned parties present. Also, FIRST Engineering should be forced to watch Rosie O'Donnell and "The View" until they pass out. They should then be revived and forced to watch some more. This might sound extreme to some but I think it really lets them off easy.
Note: the volunteer had more to say, but you get the idea.

Dylan Gramlich 24-12-2006 13:26
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
I have read thru these posts and am still confused on the maximum height of the crate. Is it 4'? cause that doesnt make sense. someone please help me on this one since we are trying to make a new reusable crate and want to make it compliant with the rules.

Ricky Q. 24-12-2006 13:30
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
From 4.3.1

Quote:
10) Have a footprint no greater than 4' by 4' and be no taller than 5'10" (70") high. This maximum includes the 4" by 4" lumber mentioned above.

Dylan Gramlich 24-12-2006 13:35
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
ty both. its just i couldnt see that part of the rules in Connor's original post.

FourPenguins 24-12-2006 18:07
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Hmm...carts that fit through 30" doors...
A robot in last year's footprint with bumpers didn't fit through a 30" door. A hint perhaps?

If it isn't a hint...I don't feel comfortable with a cart that's narrower than the robot on top of if. Not at all. I barely feel comfortable with a 28" robot on a 30" cart. Repeal please? Please? Please? I am not rebuilding that cart. It's too awesome.

That said, I want my cart music. I know why they got rid of it, but I still disagree with it and I think we've lost a huge part of the character of FIRST.

(Click_Here) 24-12-2006 18:15
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Our team isn't going to be happy about the cart music rule, the team only spent about $700 on it last year from fundraising money.

Well we can at least use it during the build season in gleason works, they don't mind if we use it there anyways.

Theres all ways more rules to be added, there is never enough.

Cory 24-12-2006 18:44
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11Ed71 (Post 544969)
Hmm...carts that fit through 30" doors...
A robot in last year's footprint with bumpers didn't fit through a 30" door. A hint perhaps?

If it isn't a hint...I don't feel comfortable with a cart that's narrower than the robot on top of if. Not at all. I barely feel comfortable with a 28" robot on a 30" cart. Repeal please? Please? Please? I am not rebuilding that cart. It's too awesome.

That said, I want my cart music. I know why they got rid of it, but I still disagree with it and I think we've lost a huge part of the character of FIRST.
This "rule" has been this way for years. The point is to allow the cart through a standard doorway. Teams have, and will continue to make their carts larger (doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea).

If you do want to keep your cart under 30", you just need a set of risers to put on it to hold your robot which would presumably be wider than the cart.

nparikh 26-12-2006 10:51
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 543177)
Personally I plan on going around the pits blasting audiobooks.... ;)
That totally sounds like something I would do--push their buttons, haha!

nparikh 26-12-2006 10:55
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak DiGriz (Post 543316)
You guys...

It's what, 10 weeks until the first competition, and you all are going through rules on pit behavior and approved safety goggles with a fine-toothed comb! Not only is this ridiculously over the top, there is a good chance that any rule combing done today will be forgotten 8 weeks down the line, and you'll have to go over the rules AGAIN.

Use your time for something more... interesting. Like trying to get the game leaked. All FIRST volunteers know the game 2 weeks in advance. They're just sworn to secrecy and will disavow all knowledge! But seriously. They know the game.
Somehow I doubt that. I don't think FIRST is that naive.

Richard Wallace 26-12-2006 11:57
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 543177)
Personally I plan on going around the pits blasting audiobooks.... ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by nparikh (Post 545315)
That totally sounds like something I would do--push their buttons, haha!
Good idea for a project. Maybe someone will make an audiobook file of the 2007 Robot Rules -- then all the inspectors can walk around the pits blasting the rules for our general entertainment.:rolleyes:

Steve W 26-12-2006 12:18
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Hey guy and gals, what has happened to the spirit of FIRST? People already saying that they will bypass the rules, try to find loop holes and generally ignore them. Things like "That said, I want my cart music. I know why they got rid of it, but I still disagree with it and I think we've lost a huge part of the character of FIRST." are just wrong.

FIRST is not about loud music. FIRST is not about ME. FIRST is about learning, growth, consideration of others, following the rules and just plainly not being selfish. I like loud music (even though I am really old), I love reading the rules and pushing them to the limit. I love the competition. I will not however knowingly break the rules or be ungracious. FIRST is not about beating others but excelling yourself with consideration of others. It is a hard task but that is what makes FIRST such a great program. Unlimited challenges with higher expectations.

Stu Bloom 26-12-2006 12:21
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard (Post 545326)
Good idea for a project. Maybe someone will make an audiobook file of the 2007 Robot Rules -- then all the inspectors can walk around the pits blasting the rules for our general entertainment.:rolleyes:
Now THAT is the BEST idea I have heard in a long time ... :yikes:

Richard Wallace 26-12-2006 12:30
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Bloom (Post 545330)
Now THAT is the BEST idea I have heard in long time ... :yikes:
Ooh.. ooh.. even better idea -- audiobook of Dave Lavery and other GDC members reading the rules!:cool:

Ian Curtis 26-12-2006 13:42
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve W (Post 545329)
Hey guy and gals, what has happened to the spirit of FIRST? People already saying that they will bypass the rules, try to find loop holes and generally ignore them. Things like "That said, I want my cart music. I know why they got rid of it, but I still disagree with it and I think we've lost a huge part of the character of FIRST." are just wrong.
How can an opinion be incorrect?

Personally, I dislike loud music in the pits, just becuase it makes it much harder to get stuff done, and there is always too much to do in too little time. I'd agree with those who say the loss of music on the cart results in a loss of character becuase I can remember from my first year seeing teams with speakers on their carts and going "Whoah! That's pretty nifty!" and then coming back and saying "We have to do that next year!" I'd agree it's for the best though becuase last time we "lost character" MOE sticks and TJ drums were eliminated, and I think everyone agrees that was for the best. :)

But for some silly reason, BAE still hands out free air filled thingies that you clap together (I don't know what they're called).

Billfred 26-12-2006 13:46
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iCurtis (Post 545357)
But for some silly reason, BAE still hands out free air filled thingies that you clap together (I don't know what they're called).
Thunderstix, I believe, is the common name for them. Terminal Supply Co. included a pair in the 2006 kit of parts.

dbell 26-12-2006 15:24
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
But for some silly reason, BAE still hands out free air filled thingies that you clap together (I don't know what they're called).
these are not supposed to be used as a distraction in the pits. People who are watching can use these to make a lot of noise. Noise is good when watching the game.

FourPenguins 27-12-2006 07:50
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve W (Post 545329)
Hey guy and gals, what has happened to the spirit of FIRST? People already saying that they will bypass the rules, try to find loop holes and generally ignore them. Things like "That said, I want my cart music. I know why they got rid of it, but I still disagree with it and I think we've lost a huge part of the character of FIRST." are just wrong.
I never suggested going around the rules. I never suggested breaking the rules. I intend to follow this rule, I simply stated that I disagree with this rule and that cart music has been a big part of MY experience in FIRST. If you don't like cart music, then I respect your opinion, and I guess you lucked out with this ruling.

Steve W 27-12-2006 09:10
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11Ed71 (Post 545515)
I never suggested going around the rules. I never suggested breaking the rules. I intend to follow this rule, I simply stated that I disagree with this rule and that cart music has been a big part of MY experience in FIRST. If you don't like cart music, then I respect your opinion, and I guess you lucked out with this ruling.
My apology. After reading your post it seems that I wrote it wrong and put words in your mouth. The part I should have high lighted was "I think we've lost a huge part of the character of FIRST." You said that "we" had lost, not that you will miss an experience. I also believe that if cart music is that big of an experience in FIRST then you are missing a vast amount of what FIRST brings. The music can be heard anywhere. The high intensity, comradeship, experience, innovation, emotional roller coaster ride, friendships, learning, enthusiasm, motivation, pride and so much more are all part of the FIRST experience and only available at a FIRST event. I like music. I am an announcer or MC at many events every year. If loud music bothered me then I have the wrong job because we hear it more than most. The issue comes when there are 10 teams in the pit or queuing line playing different music at different volumes while the pit announcer, judges, students, mentors, press and who knows who else are trying to communicate. We should try to understand that sometimes we need to give up a bit of what we want for the better good of all.

Let it be clear that I do not want to see music removed from FIRST. I do however believe that if we drive away potential or present sponsors or mentors that we need to lower the volume to an acceptable limits. That said, it is a young persons event and others must realize that there will be loud music. We will provide earplugs if you require. Let's have fun and respect others. I believe that this is possible.

Lil' Lavery 27-12-2006 14:46
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard (Post 545333)
Ooh.. ooh.. even better idea -- audiobook of Dave Lavery and other GDC members reading the rules!:cool:
I'm definitely going try and make that happen now... :cool:

TubaMorg 27-12-2006 16:49
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Hmmm now that the "musical carts" issue has been discussed thoroughly, did anyone notice the rule that prohibits internet use at the venues?

Quote:
Do not arrange for Internet access on the site or attempt to connect to the Internet.
I believe last year the rule was much less explicit. Something along the lines of internet access not being provided although I remember some venues had wireless access points that allowed internet access. Also others logged on via their cell phones. Hmmmm, how does everyone feel about this one?

Billfred 27-12-2006 17:17
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TubaMorg (Post 545597)
Hmmm now that the "musical carts" issue has been discussed thoroughly, did anyone notice the rule that prohibits internet use at the venues?

Quote:
Do not arrange for Internet access on the site or attempt to connect to the Internet.
I believe last year the rule was much less explicit. Something along the lines of internet access not being provided although I remember some venues had wireless access points that allowed internet access. Also others logged on via their cell phones. Hmmmm, how does everyone feel about this one?
I distinctly remember Peachtree having terminals for free internet access in the pit area. USC has a campus-wide wireless network for students and faculty that, in theory at least, covers the venue of Palmetto, and also has closed down a computer lab in Engineering during the team social for general use.

If you ask me, I'd think the issue is better-suited for the Site Info documents for each specific event...but if I have my laptop with me at Palmetto, I will keep the wifi off of the campus network.

Karthik 27-12-2006 17:19
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TubaMorg (Post 545597)

Quote:
Do not arrange for Internet access on the site or attempt to connect to the Internet.
I believe last year the rule was much less explicit. Something along the lines of internet access not being provided although I remember some venues had wireless access points that allowed internet access. Also others logged on via their cell phones. Hmmmm, how does everyone feel about this one?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2006 Manual, Section 7.12
Do not arrange for Internet access on the site or attempt to connect to the Internet.
The rule has not changed from last year.

Lil' Lavery 27-12-2006 17:38
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
As Karthik said, it didn't change, but that rule has often been flat out ignored in the past. Many teams have set up networks and internet connections at almost any event.

TubaMorg 27-12-2006 20:31
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 545614)
As Karthik said, it didn't change, but that rule has often been flat out ignored in the past. Many teams have set up networks and internet connections at almost any event.
Interesting observation Lil' Lave. If it's a rule then how come a lot of teams are ignoring it? Is it generally thought of as an unnecessary rule? If so then why is it still in the rules? Anyone who's broken this rule care to chime in?

Steve W 27-12-2006 20:32
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 545614)
As Karthik said, it didn't change, but that rule has often been flat out ignored in the past. Many teams have set up networks and internet connections at almost any event.
I believe that internal networks are OK. I know that at the GTR we had internet access provided by one of the sponsors. I believe that the rule is that teams are not allowed to order in internet access. I do know that many venues did have access but that was on a regional by regional basis. FIRST did know that we had access at our event and we did ask for permission.

TubaMorg 27-12-2006 20:44
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve W (Post 545648)
I believe that internal networks are OK. I know that at the GTR we had internet access provided by one of the sponsors. I believe that the rule is that teams are not allowed to order in internet access. I do know that many venues did have access but that was on a regional by regional basis. FIRST did know that we had access at our event and we did ask for permission.

It seems difficult for me to misinterpret "Do not arrange for Internet access on the site or attempt to connect to the Internet. " I agree that internal networks are a different matter. I also don't understand how FIRST would give permission to break its own rule. Personally I would just as soon see the rule changed to allow internet access if it is available to all teams at a venue.

ThomasP 28-12-2006 00:56
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Matt (Post 543168)
I agree, IN THE PIT. Now, when you're oustide and stuff (like one team did in ATL) and play music, I think that's fine. As they said, no music, not no speakers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rules
Carts must remain in the team pit area when not in use for robot transportation.
No music on cart in pit area + cart always in pit area = no music coming from carts at competition

I think the no music on carts rule is good... everyone has different tastes in music and if I blared my personal favorite, over half the people in the pit would be annoyed with me..

Steve W 28-12-2006 00:57
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TubaMorg (Post 545657)
It seems difficult for me to misinterpret "Do not arrange for Internet access on the site or attempt to connect to the Internet. " I agree that internal networks are a different matter. I also don't understand how FIRST would give permission to break its own rule. Personally I would just as soon see the rule changed to allow internet access if it is available to all teams at a venue.
I agree.

It is easier for FIRST to say no internet and then allow those that can provide than have 6 teams attempting to get their own internet in or having to make the field level and provide to all venues.

hallk 28-12-2006 14:57
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
Last year FIRST asked us to try to get internet at one of the regionals because a lot of teams messed up and had forget to vote for the Autodesk award. After we did that we were allowed to use the internet for scouting systems.

KTorak 06-01-2007 23:26
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
As for internet, there has always been a rule about not setting up a phone line or any type of connection for private internet use. However, I have never been to a religion where there was an issue with internal networks (such as scouting). As for not being on the internet at all during the competition...thats kinda hard since most people have internet enabled Cell phones and places such as the GWCC have public computer terminals...

As for the rule regarding wood size on crates...am I right to assume that a team with 3/4" wood will be required to rebuild their crate? Or would it be acceptable because it exceeds the (minimal) standards. I think FIRST is just trying to get people away from using 1/4" wood and getting a nice flat crate when they get to competition. However, our 3/4" has been overweight before, but we have never disputed paying it or anything of that nature...

y2d2 07-01-2007 00:38
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
At SVR, SJSU gave teams a piece of paper when we registered with a specific user/pw to their wireless internet. My team was pretty surprised. Useful for getting rule updates - SVR was weekend of the 17th and they updated it the 14th (and made life a tad bit easier for us!)

Cyberguy34000 07-01-2007 02:05
Re: Important Rules - 2007 Season
 
The rule about no internet is flat-out ridiculous and I would argue goes against some of the fundamental principles of FIRST. Kind of difficult to get people excited about science and technology when you make a rule that would cut-off tens of thousands of poor helpless nerds from using their lifeline to technology, learning, and the world outside. Starving them of the information and knowledge that they so desperately crave. These people weren't meant to live without the internet, it's cruel and heartless to even hint that they might lose it for any long, extended period of time, especially at an event that is supposed to celebrate the importance of science and technology in their everyday lives!

In all seriousness though, it was probably just put in so FIRST could reach some agreement with some venue somewhere. It's not really an issue right now, most people realize how ridiculous the rule is and are selectively ignoring it. Kind of silent protest. As long it stays this way, we should be OK.

-Chris


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