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-   -   KOP gearbox? (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50635)

Andy Brockway 21-12-2006 09:05
KOP gearbox?
 
Is it just my imagination or is the 2005-2006 KOP gearbox no longer available from IFI? I looked today and do not see it listed anywhere. We have one left from last year that may now be obsolete for this year's competition.

Billfred 21-12-2006 09:25
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Indeed, I can't find it anywhere either.

Equally interesting is the Kitbot page, where the frame is not available--it says "Check back after 1/8/07" instead. Could we be receiving a new frame and/or transmission?

Rob2713g 21-12-2006 09:35
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Put that together with Dave Lavery's quote and I guess we are in for some big changes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery (Post 541820)
Let me just take this opportunity to repeat an earlier comment. I would strongly recommend that teams do not go out on any big spending sprees, purchasing lots of mechanisms, stockpiling stuff in anticipation of some expected use in their 2007 robots (from ANY source - this is NOT a targeted comment about AndyMark or any other particular vendor). Wait until after kick-off and until you know the challenge, constraints, and limitations that may be included in the rules. Teams do not yet know what may be included in the 2007 rules that may constrain sources for additional (non-KOP) parts, limit purchased components to a given level of complexity, restrict the cost or size of additional elements, proscribe the permissibility of pre-ordering parts and components, or define the timing under which materials for the competition robots may be purchased. It would be a shame if a team were to commit a significant portion of a limited budget on a component pre-ordered before the 2007 kick-off, only to find once they read the rules that the component was not permitted in the 2007 FRC competition.

Just a word to the wise...

-dave

mtaman02 21-12-2006 09:56
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Hrm begs the question and yet a retirocal one at that - Has Andy Mark partnered with FIRST in such a way to provide some part in the kit for '07 that could limit the availabilityof those parts from teams that would go purchase it themselves or any other vender for that matter?

chris31 21-12-2006 10:26
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Hmmm. Daves comment had we worried about ordering frame and transmission parts to play with before the season. Now that the IFI frame and transmission are there I am not to eager to go out and buy several hundred dollars of parts.

Offtopic, the IFI version 2 traction wheels should be out in the next few days.

Joel J 21-12-2006 10:28
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Oh man.. maybe new motors?

I would say MagMotors, but they are sooo heavy, among other things.

It would be nice to have new motors.. the robot keeps getting heavier, the game keeps getting a bit more demanding, so with all this traction the robots are needing to get slower.

I would be happy to see some new stuff.

That said, I'm not reading into what IFI's pages say. I'd rather be surprised, than dissapointed.

ChrisH 21-12-2006 11:12
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billfred (Post 543742)
Indeed, I can't find it anywhere either.

Equally interesting is the Kitbot page, where the frame is not available--it says "Check back after 1/8/07" instead. Could we be receiving a new frame and/or transmission?
Or they could be just protecting us from ourselves for a while.

Hieb 21-12-2006 11:55
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
To add to the rampant speculation that the few weeks before build season brings on -- the serial (programming) cables on the IFI site also say to check back after kickoff. Could we be switching to USB?

chris31 21-12-2006 12:03
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hieb (Post 543890)
To add to the rampant speculation that the few weeks before build season brings on -- the serial (programming) cables on the IFI site also say to check back after kickoff. Could we be switching to USB?
After several threads about USB and Serial programming i basically concluded that they would stick with serial. But now, maybe. Just maybe we will have USB this year.

Donut 21-12-2006 12:14
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hieb (Post 543890)
To add to the rampant speculation that the few weeks before build season brings on -- the serial (programming) cables on the IFI site also say to check back after kickoff. Could we be switching to USB?
The whole control system (radio modems, Robot Controller, and Operator Interface) all say this as well; maybe it is changing?

All the motors are still listed for sale; but the CMUCAM, pneumatic storage tanks, and fuse panels all say to check back. Maybe a new fuse panel, a newer CMUCAM, or pneumatics are on the way?

Joel J 21-12-2006 12:15
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris31 (Post 543894)
After several threads about USB and Serial programming i basically concluded that they would stick with serial. But now, maybe. Just maybe we will have USB this year.
I sure hope so! A USB program port sounds great!

Tom Bottiglieri 21-12-2006 13:42
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
I really hope FIRST doesnt limit teams to using IFI or AndyMark parts. That would be terrible.

chris31 21-12-2006 13:58
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri (Post 543957)
I really hope FIRST doesnt limit teams to using IFI or AndyMark parts. That would be terrible.
I dont see that happening. That wouldnt be cool at all.


I dont think there is a new CMUCam, so it could be that they just dont have nay of thsoe right now.

Tom Bottiglieri 21-12-2006 14:02
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris31 (Post 543972)
I dont see that happening. That wouldnt be cool at all.


I dont think there is a new CMUCam, so it could be that they just dont have nay of thsoe right now.
Either do I.. I'm just putting it out there. FVC can only use IFI parts. FLL can only use Lego parts... what next?

Peter Matteson 21-12-2006 14:05
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Rumor is there's a new kitbot and trannies this year.

ChuckDickerson 21-12-2006 14:50
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
I noticed the changes to the IFI web site a day or so ago while checking to see if the new IFI wheels had been released yet. What puzzles me is that all of the "Out of Stock - No More This Year" items have been changed to "Check back after 1/8/07" except for the breaker panel, the camera, and the servos. I wonder what this means? I sure hope the breaker panel isn't going away. It is just so much cleaner to use than all of the separate terminal and fuse blocks even if it is optional and we have to buy it. I wouldn't be surprized if the camera was upgraded again this year and they went to a different model servo. I just find it odd that in all the locations on the IFI web site these 3 items are distinctly different than everything else.

Billfred 21-12-2006 15:24
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Matteson (Post 543976)
Rumor is there's a new kitbot and trannies this year.
I've also heard that same rumor, at least in the transmission department. Given FIRST's preference to save money where they can, it seems entirely plausible that FIRST found a cheaper way of going about it. Considering that AndyMark was able to undercut IFI's street price on similar single-speed transmissions by a full third, I put some stock in this idea. (There are dozens of other factors here that I'm ignoring, mind you.)

chris31 21-12-2006 15:37
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billfred (Post 544014)
I've also heard that same rumor, at least in the transmission department. Given FIRST's preference to save money where they can, it seems entirely plausible that FIRST found a cheaper way of going about it. Considering that AndyMark was able to undercut IFI's street price on similar single-speed transmissions by a full third, I put some stock in this idea. (There are dozens of other factors here that I'm ignoring, mind you.)
Its very possible that they are usingAndyMark or other cheaper solution. If each team gets 2 of them, there are atleast 1000 teamd and they can make them $50 cheaper that is alot of money.

2x50x1000 = 100,000

Lil' Lavery 21-12-2006 18:45
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
It could just be a minor modification to the kitbot and/or KoP transmissions, I'm not freaking out about anything

Alex.Norton 28-12-2006 21:29
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
If they are drastically changing the KOP gearbox I would be surprised. The tooling that they would need to make those would be very expensive and couldn't possibly be worn out after only two years of use. Most of the cost of those gear boxes was already invested, so cost reducing them would be either stupid or very hard.

Of course there tooling could have a shorter life time than I thought but it seems silly to buy tooling to make only 4000 or so of an item.

Just a thought

fimmel 28-12-2006 21:36
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
if my memory serves me correctly the sane thing happened before last yeas kickoff. they all said "check back after (insert kickoff day here)".

I'm not worried about any major changes

/forest

Chuck Glick 28-12-2006 22:28
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donut (Post 543904)
The whole control system (radio modems, Robot Controller, and Operator Interface) all say this as well; maybe it is changing?

All the motors are still listed for sale; but the CMUCAM, pneumatic storage tanks, and fuse panels all say to check back. Maybe a new fuse panel, a newer CMUCAM, or pneumatics are on the way?
Well, at ramp riot, for the first half of the day the blue alliance would test out the new prototype IFI radios, so I wouldn't be really surprised if there was some other new stuff as well.

bear24rw 04-01-2007 19:09
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirCharles982 (Post 545926)
Well, at ramp riot, for the first half of the day the blue alliance would test out the new prototype IFI radios, so I wouldn't be really surprised if there was some other new stuff as well.
There were new radios?

lukevanoort 04-01-2007 19:29
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
If you click 'System Overview' on the IFI site you the kitbot and transmission available. A Freudian slip? Or just an accident?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear24rw (Post 548012)
There were new radios?
I believe these radios were tested at IRI in '05 as well.

Cody Carey 04-01-2007 19:33
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
The radios that we tested at ramp riot were hand-soldered bread boards in a plastic hobby box. As far As I know, they were made earlier this year and half of them actually failed at ramp riot due to defective components.

Gabe 04-01-2007 20:22
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
One guess that I have is that maybe they are changing the output shaft of the transmission to english measurements rather than metric. This would be a very welcome change since its no fin having to ream out hardened steel for the sprockets. :(
By the way, check out the motors on this page (Robot Marketplace) and their prices. The door motor and window motors are there, as well as some cheap motors that perhaps will be in the KOP. What do you think?
http://www.robotcombat.com/marketplace_motors_ame.html

DonRotolo 04-01-2007 21:18
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 544136)
It could just be a minor modification to the kitbot and/or KoP transmissions, I'm not freaking out about anything
Wise advice. Maybe they're changing the 1/4" holes to 33/128" diameter, just to annoy me? And 37/64" spacing? They'd have to move the holes on the transmission then....:p

Don

Tom Bottiglieri 05-01-2007 03:25
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
I think we will see a totally new transmission. AndyMark, maybe?

IndySam 05-01-2007 09:49
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri (Post 548200)
I think we will see a totally new transmission. AndyMark, maybe?
I love the AM transmission and unless the GDC comes up with a huge curveball we will be using them again this year.

I just don't see AM being able to produce a couple thousand transmissions for the KOP and then who knows how many spares.

Peter Matteson 05-01-2007 10:02
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by IndySam (Post 548252)
I love the AM transmission and unless the GDC comes up with a huge curveball we will be using them again this year.

I just don't see AM being able to produce a couple thousand transmissions for the KOP and then who knows how many spares.
If the transmission is replaced I don'e see first giving us an item that forces everyone to have pnuematics. I also don't see them going with something that requires that type of machining the AndyMark needs. When you're producing ~2500 units you don't want to have to add dog patterns etc. to gears.

Donut 05-01-2007 10:31
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Matteson (Post 548258)
If the transmission is replaced I don'e see first giving us an item that forces everyone to have pnuematics. I also don't see them going with something that requires that type of machining the AndyMark needs. When you're producing ~2500 units you don't want to have to add dog patterns etc. to gears.
They could include the single speed Andymark transmissions. They're essentially identical to the kit ones, just lighter and made with different materials.

Ted Boucher 05-01-2007 20:27
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
http://www.ifirobotics.com/docs/tran...g-12-14-06.pdf ..... i dont know what to say.....

DanDon 05-01-2007 20:33
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Boucher (Post 548564)
Woah....those are tiny. :ahh:

BrianR 05-01-2007 20:38
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Very nice find!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Boucher (Post 548564)


I know what to say... somebody put this up one day too soon!

That would be really nice to have this type of gearbox... they look pretty small and compact.

And this may also be the new KitBot frame.

Once again, thats a very nice find!

Ted Boucher 05-01-2007 20:39
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhoizner (Post 548568)
Woah....those are tiny. :ahh:
Yeah, they remind me of the drill transmissions we used to get. So, they only take 1 CIM each, could we be getting only 2 small CIMs this year? In it all.. very interesting..... I dont know weather to like them or hate them. Hopefully they will have a kitbot at kickoff tomorrow with them running. If they do, I will make sure to get some good pics and video.

DanDon 05-01-2007 20:44
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Boucher (Post 548574)
Hopefully they will have a kitbot at kickoff tomorrow with them running. If they do, I will make sure to get some good pics and video.
If you do, please share. :)

Joel J 05-01-2007 21:12
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Does BB stand for BaneBots?

They could be the AM planetary after all, eh?

Gdeaver 05-01-2007 21:14
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
If that is the trans, that looks like an encoder and the easy-c preview had a quadrature block. Now in autonomous mode ever team can at least count the distance they go out instead of timing it. Small positive steps forward.

Ted Boucher 05-01-2007 22:19
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Boucher (Post 548564)
FYI, since I have been asked about this multiple times, I found this link on this webpage that is public to everyone.

Good Luck All!

ChuckDickerson 05-01-2007 23:01
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
There are LOTS of interesting things new about the IFI web site tonight:

The CTRE USB Chicklet is now available from IFI: http://www.ifirobotics.com/usb-chicklet.shtml

The new traction wheels are up: http://www.ifirobotics.com/robot-traction-wheels.shtml

And the new sprockets are up: http://www.ifirobotics.com/sprockets.shtml
Note the 4 new large "Mechanism Sprockets" and with "Arm Mounting Pattern": http://www.ifirobotics.com/docs/spro...35a96-revb.pdf

Folks, it looks like arms are back in this year!

BrianR 05-01-2007 23:24
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepWater (Post 548643)
There are LOTS of interesting things new about the IFI web site tonight:

The CTRE USB Chicklet is now available from IFI: http://www.ifirobotics.com/usb-chicklet.shtml
Looks like we're still using the serial port controllers then...

Edit: Quote

ChuckDickerson 05-01-2007 23:25
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel J. (Post 548599)
Does BB stand for BaneBots?
My guess is we are going to get the BaneBots 56mm planetaries this year setup for a CIM but maybe we get to pick what gear ratio we want to use.

Note that the BaneBots 56mm page isn't up yet but I bet it will be before Monday: http://www.banebots.com/c/MOTOR-PLAN

If this turns out to be true this will open up a whole new level of competition with the ability to use factory installed encoders on the output shafts of the gearboxes.

We will find out in just a few more hours but I am keeping my fingers crossed! I hope so because this will really be a step forward for FIRST and the level of competition.

Dillon Compton 05-01-2007 23:28
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Yea, but easy, accesible support for USB joysticks is now available; no-one needs to scrounge for flightsticks on Ebay anymore!

ChuckDickerson 05-01-2007 23:28
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianR (Post 548650)
Looks like we're still using the serial port controllers then...
I never seem to understand what people mean my serial port controllers. By serial do you mean RS-232? Are you referring to the joystick ports? If so I believe this is a common missconception. The joystick ports are analog with additional digital switch inputs not RS-232/serial.

MikeDubreuil 05-01-2007 23:33
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Great find guys... quite honestly I'm disappointed that IFI could not keep this stuff under wraps. Shame on them.

dez250 05-01-2007 23:37
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Chuck i think they mean gameport instead of serial.

CmptrGk 05-01-2007 23:41
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
This is unrelated to the previous year's KOP gearbox. But it seems that we will be getting the CmuCam2 RevA in the KOP this year. Based on the board layout pdf, and the picture of the camera it seems that we will be unable to control the pan and tilt servos directly from the camera. This is a slightly large picture of the board. http://www.ifirobotics.com/images/el...cs/cmu-cam.jpg

lukevanoort 05-01-2007 23:42
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Hmm... it appears the AndyMark.biz site is requiring a password to access it. Curious.

Gabe 05-01-2007 23:47
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
I actually wish they had not released the details of the transmission of the chassis, because then the suspense is gone.

Another thing worth reading. At the bottom of the transmission and chassis page there is a little note that says " 4 or 6 wheel drive. Tread drive compatible."
The only tread drive on the market specifically for FIRST is machined by Outback Mfg.

M. Mellott 06-01-2007 04:16
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
These sure look like BaneBot transmissions...we used smaller versions coupled with the FP motors for our ball-launcher...36mm, with 5:1 gear ratios if I recall correctly, running at about 1200-1400rpm. Had some issues with the internal gears wearing out, but only after many matches.

ChuckDickerson 06-01-2007 05:28
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe (Post 548665)
Another thing worth reading. At the bottom of the transmission and chassis page there is a little note that says " 4 or 6 wheel drive. Tread drive compatible."
The only tread drive on the market specifically for FIRST is machined by Outback Mfg.
I believe it has said this since the beginning of the KitBot. I always wondered if IFI had tested the Kitbot with a tank tread setup and might have plans to market one someday.

Joe Johnson 06-01-2007 11:10
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel J. (Post 548599)
Does BB stand for BaneBots?

They could be the AM planetary after all, eh?
I am going with Banebots check this link out.

Joe J.

Richard Wallace 06-01-2007 18:56
Re: KOP gearbox?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Johnson (Post 548811)
I am going with Banebots check this link out.

Joe J.
Thanks for your work on this, Dr. Joe. The gearboxes look really nice and compact. Do you have access to drawings? I didn't find them on the BB link above. EDIT: Looks like mounting dimensions can be found at the IFI site. /EDIT

Also, do you have a recommendation re: lubrication for these gearboxes?


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