How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

I know it's a crazy idea, but I'm getting frustrated about having bugs on the field that don't show their ugly faces in testing, and I believe a thumbdrive counts as a COTS item. I would like to save a log file to the drive; saving the printfs maybe for the entire match. And I'm interested in how the transitions happen at the beginning of the match (is it Disabled -> Auton -> human control or is it Disabled and Auton -> Auton -> human control). I would like to log all that data to a flash drive. Now, I have no idea how to do that. I only got the idea because it is a universal serial bus drive and therefore should work...somehow...

If anyone has any ideas on how to do this, or even any hints, I would be most grateful to hear them.

Thanks
JBot

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

You could never interface a USB thumbdrive directly to the RC, but you COULD write some software for your PC and run it off the dashboard port. You'd probably end up writing a terminal application that saves its output into a file

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

I'm not a programmer, so I wouldn't be positive about this, but I believe that 116 used a laptop connected to the Operator Interface to log data that the robot transmitted.

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

I have been working on a project similar to what you want. I plan have an external PIC that will log all sort of information to a microSD card which you could then put into your computer and read the log of.

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

That's the closest I was thinking of. I need to get myself a pic board...will probably do so tomorrow. That would be really nice. I would think the hardest part would be the filesystem. I might get lazy and just record raw data to it and make my own program for the PC to read it; I don't want to have to deal with FAT.

JBot

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

Gumstix (gumstixes? stixi?) have USB and serial support. I imagine one could read data sent to it from one of the RC's serial ports and then write it to a flash drive.

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

I highly would recommend simply doing it using the Dashboard port on the OI. It's really an underutilized port, and if you search the whitepapers section, most of the work is already done for you. You'd have the data get recorded straight to your laptop, and then you can just parse it however you feel.

And it doesn't count towards your weight limit or total cost ;)

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

Theres alot of info about your bot that that doesnt tell you. All your sensors that you have on your robot. None of that data gets outputted to the Dashboard.

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

Every single PWM variable gets sent back to the Dashboard. Are you using every single PWM variable to drive motors? There's a whole bunch of bytes you can use to send data back, on top of I think four bytes that it gives you already specifically for dashboard information.

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

I didnt even think about that. However that does limit how much information you could get. The more I think about it though I cant see a reason for needing that much so putting it on the dashboard port would also work.

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

Dashboard? Pfft.

Why take the easy road, when you get to do all the fun engineering on the hard one?

Logging serial data to a CF card seems like a fun project. It'd be a pretty universal and useful thing too, I'd think.

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

I think if it uses the dashboard port that will be more user freindly. So once I finish the design it will be something thats easy and more people will want to try. However some new PICs I ordered are still in Asia and the rest of the cool stuff I ordered is backordered. Hopefully though ill have a working demo up soon.

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

look at these
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/pro...oducts_id=7955
http://chipdos.com/

hope this helps

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

An offboard PIC or AVR with an attached dataflash module could easily do it, AVRs can be entirely self-contained so all you'd need is a serial connector, the AVR and the flash memory, I'm not sure if you can draw enough power right off the serial port, but you should be able to draw from a few PWMs to power it, it'd be a nice project, AVRs can be programmed in assembly, C, BASIC and a few other languages.

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

If you want to roll your own application/software, www.microchip.com sells a USB evaluation board:

DM163025 - PICDEM FS USB

and the MMC/SD daughter board that can be used with the above board.

AC164122 - PICtail Daughter Board for SD & MMC Cards

I've had both for almost a year, but not enough time to test the data logging software out.

A pre-canned serial data logger is also available like the Acumen DataBridge SDR-OEM-SF. It records all serial port traffic onto SD but is pricey.

I'd like a totally passive data logger that I don't have to send commands to in order to get it to log/save the data.

For debugging purposes I need not only all the raw sensor data and outputs, but intermediate steps of the code in processing the data. Its usually one of the intermediate steps that is messing up and causing problems.

Bud

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

The PICDEM board is like $60 and then i dont kno what the AC164122 costs. I have the designs mostly finished. The final cost should be about $30. Ill have code, design all that posted for free. And ill probably sell them at the value of the raw materials since I have some exra parts laying around.

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

OK, I'll have to give some of these solutions a try.

Good point about the weight issues. I know every year we are at least .2lbs overweight...a little PIC board and flash drive are surely seen as expendable and will be ripped off ("Jake, are you sure we need that?").

I'll have to look at how big our EEPROM is; I might be able to just use that--even though using a PIC with an SD card or CF would be the funnest (wow, spell check isn't whining about the word "funnest") project.

Thanks for all your suggestions,
JBot

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

If you run it off teh dashboard port then it wount be any weight to the robot.

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

Actually, we (Cross the road electronics) have a device that will allow reading and writing to/from an SD card or USB thumb drive. Powered by the same technology in USB-Chicklet, it interfaces to the SD/USB device and provides a gateway to serial rs232 port (program port) on the RC. Not only will you be able to log data into FAT32 files, but will also be able to script autonomous and PID gain control. The script can be written on any laptop with a card reader or USB port. The device is called Chicken-AID (Autonomous Interface Device). Chicken-AID will require an RC driver similar to the camera but no where near as complicated.

Omar Zrien
Chief Software Engineer
Cross The Road Electronics
Team 217, The Thunder Chickens

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

It says it will be release November 06 but i dont see any pictures or prices for it on your website.

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

Ha sorry about that, we've corrected that page. We have been focusing on the release of USB-Chicklet so unfortunetely Chicken-AID won't be released prior to kick off. We do have working prototypes so hopefully we can manufacture soon.

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

As ridiculously cool as that sounds (I'm bummed I didn't come up with it), I would never use a prebuilt solution like that. I understand it is meant to level the platform so less experienced teams, but I would have to build it myself first. (scampers around to get parts to copy off of Chicked-AID:yikes: )

That would be nice...I probably will copy the idea...

JBot

EDIT: Just out of curiosity (if you're going to reveal any of it) is it PIC based? I've gotta get me one of those!

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

I'm not following your reasoning there.

What is it about pre-built solutions that you don't like, and why wouldn't you use them on an FRC robot? Interpreting your statement above literally, I guess you'd buy raw stock and make your own screws? [EDIT: of course that's rhetorical. I know very well that you are part of a great team that would not let you waste time making screws.;) ]

Many of us have made our own components for the fun of it, or to save money, or when similar COTS parts were not available. But I can't see a good reason for making something that you could buy as cheaply, especially during FRC build season.

BTW, my day job is designing electric motors and electronic controllers to drive them. FRC rules prevent me from making custom motors and controllers for my team's robot, but even if they didn't I am sure there would be a better uses for my time during build season. Also (like many others here on CD), I have built custom wheels and gearboxes for FRC robots. But I'd only do it again if my team felt there was a clear advantage to be gained, one that could not be gained by using COTS components.

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

Well, If your more into the DIY type of projects and want to copy the idea (you dont re-invent the wheel everyday do you?) I will have mine finished soon. The main problem I have now is I have no OI. So im using an cold PC to spit out packets like the OI would. Ill want to test in on the OI on kickoff day to make sure there any anything funky with it.

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

I figured I wasn't very clear.

I like some prebuilt solutions--Victors, PWM cables, the RC/OI, and the rest of the control system comes to mind. However, I like building my own devices for more than one reason. I like building my own devices because there is a higher sense of accomplishment--I built that vs. I bought that. Second, I learn a lot when I make these devices. I don't want a "black box" on the robot that I don't know even the slightest of its internals--NO! I want to know what goes on inside that box. And, since I think a PIC would be useful here, and our controller is PIC based, it might do me some good to get my feet wet with PIC programming. So I see it more beneficial to "roll my own" hardware solution on this.

Plus, "rolling your own" is just so much cooler.

Realistically, will I use something like this during build season? Probably not. What will I probably end up doing? hooking up my lappy to the dashboard port and logging on PWMs 7ish - 12. (BTW, are 13-16 still transmitted through the dashboard port even if I don't generate their signal from code? Are they even transmitted at all?)

Can you program a screw to write to an SD card? ;) Also, me, make a screw? I'd probably not only thread it the wrong direction, but I'd destroy 3-4 tools in the process, along with removing some fingers...never EVER let the programmer touch the machines...:yikes:

So why don't I like prebuilt solutions? Because homebrewn is so much sweeter!

(hey, I'm a dreamer:D )
JBot

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

Check the rules for the legal way to power a custom circuit. In recent years, a separate circuit breaker from the main battery has been required.

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

Not entirely true; the gyros were powered off the 5v out, and so was our camera.
It only says that a custom circuit must be connected to analog inputs, digital i/o, or serial ports. It doesn't say that you must draw the power from the circuit breaker. Of course, if you do need 12v, then yes, you do need to go through a circuit breaker/fuse according to other rules, but if the 5v is enough, then go for it.

And I've had a change of heart and might buy a Chicken-AID when they come out. Making my own would require a ridiculous amount of work that I really don't feel like doing...

JBot

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

If you're planning to sue the monitor for development only, and not competition, then you should inquire in the National Instruments datalogger / LabView forum. Danny Diaz (who works for NI) can give you help in getting their 6009 logger connected to the robot.

We were a NI pilot team last year, and we spent about a week collecting data this way before shipping. We did find some glitches witht he aiming system, and modified the design to get around them.

The effort to connect the logger to the robot is not that hgh, since it's all temporary, and there's almost nothing the logger cannot measure. Once you learn a little about LabView, you can make a logging system that's pretty sophisticated.

This is how it's done in industry.

Note that Danny & friends have just released a "robot simulator" that uses the 6009 to simulate your robot - so you can play with the code without having the robot physically present. This is big.

Don

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

My coach said something about a datalogger, but I never heard more about it, and since my team's not on the pilot team list, I guess this isn't an option.

Darn. It sounds really cool! But it looks like we missed the deadline.

JBot

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

You can get a single-channel data logger for under $25, and a NI 6009 goes for about $250.

Don

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

Hmm. I will present this to our leader and see what he thinks. A little begging from the GM higher-ups, and we just might get the 6009. Otherwise, I'll buy myself a single-channel logger, because that's better than nothing.

JBot

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

If you do decide to purchase a USB-6009 DAQ device on your own, let me know first - our Academic Kit for the USB-6009 is $269 with a copy of LabVIEW Student Edition, which obviously you don't need. It might be possible to get you a discounted "FIRST" price on the USB-6009 since all you need is the hardware (and driver CDs), I'll have to check with Academic Marketing to see what I can dig up for you. Since I'm in R&D and not in Academic Marketing, I don't know what's possible - but those guys up there have always been super generous in the past, so maybe there's a chance! Just send an "official" question to the "frc [at] ni.com" e-mail address and ask how much a USB-6009 would cost a "FIRST" team and that'll put the team to work finding out for you; obviously we would LOVE to get these devices into the hands of as many people as possible, and you might be able to use that to your advantage! :)

And, of course, if you have any questions about how to do any DAQ with LabVIEW just fire off a question in our LabVIEW forum and we'd be happy to oblige! :D

-Danny

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

They look nice! All white, compact and sleek. If NI decided to make one that supported a CompactFlash or some other type or portable media card I think I would have to buy one. Im on the fence as to buy one when I need a computer there since we dont always have a computer around when working (or its busy being used) but being able to log lots of info to a card and then read it later would be so nice. I guess if it really wanted to I could build something that read the info you guys send from the USB port to the computer but thats probably proprietary and would take awhile to reverse engineer.

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

Last year's yaw rate gyro, accelerometer, and camera were not custom circuits. They were all in the Kit of Parts.
I think it does.

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

That part that you quoted is not specific; it refers to another rule, <R56>:
I interpret that to mean "if you are using 12v, you need to use a fuse". Why would they provide us with 5v out of the RC if we can't use it? Does that mean if I make a custom circuit that needs 5v, I have to connect it to 12v and put a 5v regulator in there? The 5v coming from the RC is already regulated and current-limited, so why not use it?

Dan, I sent an email last night and was informed this morning that they extended the pilot program to our team. Thanks for the tip! :cool:

JBot

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

Aside from the rule itself, I don't see references to <R56> anywhere in the 2006 robot manual. It certainly isn't mentioned in the section on custom circuits.
One of us is very confused, and I don't think it's me. Fuses are mentioned in <R57>, not <R56>, and are designated there as permitted, not as mandatory. The circuit breaker is mandatory in any case.
The 5v from the RC is for sensors. Rule <R91> about powering custom circuits is explicit. I also repeat the mention from <R57> here in its full context.

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

Yes, I messed up; I meant to say circuit breaker, not fuse.

I'm probably going to end up looking in the Q&A for this...

I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, because I very well might be wrong.

JBot

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

Not sure if this is still relevant, but our programming mentor showed up at one of our preseason meetings with a little SD card reader similar to the one linked above. I don't remember all the details, but I believe it needed 6 Digital I/Os on the controller and you could read text files off it (his idea was to use it to hold a few pages of stuff that constantly changes like auton programs) so you don't have to recompile and reload your code so much (during programming sessons, we have students who only hold the 50ft program cable, and on command will plug it in and "PROG" the RC)

I'm not sure if he's done any further testing with it, but if you're interested (or anyone else for that matter) I can talk to him about it. I believe the cost of the board was no more than $50

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

Good luck with that. Even on the PC, string parsing is hard. On the PIC, I doubt you'll have the power or memory to handle it. What might be more reasonable would be to store autonomous in EEPROM and use a custom loader to change it. (Similar idea to Kevin's navigation code.)

Of course, you should feel free to prove me wrong.

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

When he showed it to me, I questioned the RC being able to interface with it, and he proceeded to explain how it would work - which went way over my head, because I couldn't program myself out of a ditch if my life depended on it (well, at least in C .. if the RC's still ran PBASIC, I would be fine :D).

Like I said, I have yet to see it work. If it does, I'll post it.

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

Just because they're strings doesn't mean that you have to develop some sort of natural language parsing... very simple strings where each character represents some parameter or command would be pretty easy (read: near trivial) to handle. String, for loop, switch statement, done. In any case, I don't know anything about this SD card reader (except that I'd love to have one), but from a software perspective the idea is definitely tractable.

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

Yuo could use something like this. $50 Canadian.

It's a serial (RS232) data logger, that has FAT16/FAT32 capability. Essentially, you could generate a standard readable text file on the unit, take out the SD card and read it in a PC/Mac.

Gumstix is another idea (which someone mentioned earlier), but it will be more costly and probably more difficult to implement. I've got one (with a few of the modules :-))... and it's fun to play around with - but will probably be frustrating to those not familiar with linux.

Good luck!

- Jeff

Re: How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?
 

Check out this Link:http://www.crosstheroadelectronics.c...cken%20AID.htm The product is in not in production yet. We will be using it on our bot this year. We will release it for next season. A picture will be available soon. You can use usb flash drives and SD. The final version will have USB device support allowing you to connect to your pc via USB cable. The device communicates with the RC via the program port. It allows the user to read and write to/from the media using an LCD interface or the R/C or a PC. No linux necessary. You simply send ASCII commands to create, read and write files and directories. It is great for changing auton on the fly, or setting pid gains without reflashing the R/C. It will sell for $199.99 about the same price as a Gumstick. No programming is required. It comes with updatable firmware that can be downloaded from our websight onto a USB or SD media device.