Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

An observation about game complaints: Speaking as a 4th-year FRC programmer, I would say that the differences between the competence of programming teams will be more related to the programming skill, enthusiasm, and awareness of good development practice of the team members more than a particular familiarity with a specific component.

So I don't think the arguments about cameras being easier for veterans that have been presented in this thread hold much water. Teams with quality robot code will have good programming as long as they can retain their skilled members and good practices (e.g. use revision control, sub-divide tasks, test at every step, etc.). The best way to improve your programming team is by having members become passionate about computer science in their own time and investing some effort to go read a few books and papers (and you certainly can't level that out with rules).

I'm not a big fan of the CMUCam's capabilities either. However, it's certainly a relevant technology for us roboticians. Guess what Stanford used on their winning DARPA autonomous vehicle? A camera augmented with laser range finders. This stuff will be important, even though we won't get to play with bayesian inference engines on our dinky PICs.

Finally, perhaps it's valuable to see the wide range of opinions that exist about this year's game, but I think some people are being unnecessarily negative in this thread ("hate" is a strong word and all that). Maybe we should reserve some judgement on whether the game design was good or bad until we actually get some robots built and see some competition. Sorry for adding another rant to this thread (meta-rant though). :p

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

My pre-build / competition reaction to the game: I like it. 2 thumbs up game design committee, you created a game that's not only challenging but allows for multiple strategies and styles of play, and continues to build on using the camera while making autonomous mode more important this year more than ever as well.

This is going to be one interesting year.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

I'm on mechanical team and all I want to say is...

I Want Some Obstacles On The Field!

Seriously, they could have placed a 4 by 4 piece of pine on the gound at the very least. Imagine how much harder THAT would have been to navigate. Imagine the difficulty in accounting for unpredictable obstacles that block your robot while trying to track an unpredictably moving light.

Actually, I can imagine what 2008 will be like... ;)

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

Im sorry for this earlier comment.:( i didnt mean to cause so much arguing.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

It is unquestionably better than last year but last year was not very good and so that is not a particularly narrow category. I'd rather talk in terms of "good enough" and "not good enough" and I am afraid this may eventually fall into the latter.

I was thinking on the order of magnitude of stack attack bins...basically enough that it could possibly be a reasonably sized additional cost to running a regional. Also it I assume it is probably more difficult by a significant margin to injure yourself with a poof ball than a large chunk of swinging metal.
Wow that is even worse than I had imagined! Can anybody confirm the source/provide a link?

The the benefit that somebody can teach you the system is small compared to the advantage the teaching team has. Many teams are kind and generous to all in need this is true but I do not think FIRST should be banking on the good will of the teams in the league to ensure a level playing field. I think the game design itself should cause a level playing field. I think things would be a lot more even if every team was struggling to learn the new sensor.

That said I can respect the fact that FIRST has perfected the use of the camera and they know this one works. There is a lot to be said for having working parts. If somebody can show me that the lack of resources to test and debug new sensors is why we do not have new sensors I will respect that. I'll also gladly offer to help test and debug new sensors myself.

I know rookie teams are powerful. I mentored one last year that went to semifinals in Boston and I spent highschool on a low budget team in WA which did well on several occasions. If they were hopeless cases there wouldn't be much point in attempting to look out for them because they'd be well...hopeless. It is out of a deep respect for rookie and low budget teams that I attempt to speak out for their interests.

Speaking as a 6th-year FRC participant who happens to be majoring in computer science I can agree with you that there are obviously more important things that determine the difference between a competent programming team and an incompetent one. I consider the things you listed to be basic requirements to a functioning programming team. However once you have those basics, having somebody who has done the task before (in this case finding a green light and steering with it) it a tremendous advantage. Your argument strikes me to work along the same lines as if I said, "we shouldn't worry about having programmers who can code or not because nobody will have a working anything without oxygen." While the logic is absolutely true it is rather irrelevant. I am assuming already that most teams which would gain a competitive edge from being in the same starting place as older teams on a sensor have programmers who know how to program with common sense, communicate with the rest of the team and teach themselves more. This is probably the same way that you assume a competent programming team will be programming in a setting with oxygen.

I can't tell you how comforting it is to see you guys argue with me. I really want to be wrong on all of this.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

Idea Time!

Since we think that visability might be some small concern in one way or another during compeition, is it expected to see some teams trying to score their keepers in the parts of the Rack the opposing alliance view the easiest?

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Last year at an off season event i finally ripped the camera lens part off and threw it at a rookie.. i said dont lose it, it cost a lot of money... We then won the event...

Camera's are my anti-fun

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Yes. We paid ~$600 yesterday for materials. Constructed entirely of wood and PVC, with the chains and all.

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no i agree with you... there should be some obstacles on the field. however! as a programmer myself for the first year, and any 1 one else new would probally agree with me on this..... auto mode would be intense to the point that people would not score any points in 15 seconds... i could be wrong.. but those are my thoughts:)

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I have to second that! This game looking like it could be winnable by any team.
Great design!
But lets not forget... its about the students! There are no losers in First :)

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I actually also want another obstacle...like additional places to put rings for points...but because this game can revolve around needing space to place rings and needing space to defend the other alliance from placing rings...wide open spaces are the best idea

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You do have obstacles... they called other robots.
You can either go around, move them or my personal fav ... over them :eek:

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

Ok, My reaction is that I don't like the game so much. Last years game was awesome, because anybody who came in and sat down could understand " If you put the ball in the hole, you get points for it", because it was reminiscent of basketball. The game let teams choose multiple routs of design: Shooter, Dumper, defense, or all three.

With the introduction of the FIRST KOP wheels, the playing field for defense has been leveled. In previous years we have made custom wheels that enabled us to push anybody, even with IFI traction wheels. These new FIRST wheels are more grippy, and have harder rubber than our custom ones, which means that we will be using them this year. With everybody having the same High traction wheels, FIRST has effectively eliminated defense in this years game (Except for the limited weight advantage that can be gained from weight/height differences).

As for the mechanical design portion of the game, teams are left two options, build an exceptional articulated arm, or build an exceptional lift robot. Building an articulated arm is old hat, and I don't envision building a ramp/lift to be all that difficult. Also, I don't envision too much scoring on the other side of the spider rack, because in order to do this successfully, you have to implement a good camera setup, which quite a few rookie teams won't be able to to, and a fair number of non-rookie teams were unable to do last year.

My last qualm with this game is the complexity of it. We have 120 seconds to complete it, and there is so much strategy in this game that it is kinda like completing a game of Chinese-checkers in two minutes. Not everyone who comes in and sits down will be able to understand what is happening, and after running the game animation for my 14-year-old brother twice, he still didn't understand the entire form of the game.I guess that I wish the game was more design-intensive, and less strategy intensive. That would have provided a more exciting game for non-FIRST viewers, and more exciting game play for FIRST participants.


Just some thoughts on the subject,

-Cody C

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

Yes!

Exactly my issues with the game as well!

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personoly i like challenges, down with silver platters. it will be interesting to see what people do during the competition...at the place where i went for the kickoff had one of those racks made and it seems when you put pressure on a leg that leg stops moving. what i am really wondering is what they will do NEXT year...