RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

A center structure with "spiders" and inner-tubes????

OMG it's like a reminiscence of the 98(?) game!!!!! OMG

Robot weight & height CHOICES?
100lbs = 6' limit
110lbs = 5' limit
120lbs = 4' limit

AWESOME

Re: RACK & ROLL!!!!
 

1997

Re: RACK & ROLL!!!!
 

Holy.

Cow.

This is going to be intense.

Re: RACK & ROLL!!!!
 

1997, Toroid Terror

Re: RACK & ROLL!!!!
 

What's with them shaking the structure at the beginning?

Oh god or god.....

Re: RACK & ROLL!!!!
 

This is Going to be CRAZY

Re: RACK & ROLL!!!!
 

Lets keep this thread for game reaction and such, rules and everything can be discussed in the Rules forum when they are out. Thanks!

Re: RACK & ROLL!!!!
 

Yea, I couldn't remember what year exactly, I was a little too jumpy trying to get the thread posted. I knew it was either 97 or 98.

Re: RACK & ROLL!!!!
 

anyone have videos of toroid terror?

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

It kinda looks like toroid terror, but with some modifications, attached is a pic of the structure in '97.

I wish I was on a team this year, it looks a fantastic challange.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

WOW.
Camera is crucial.
as well as the coach.

Good Luck to All!

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I myself am still trying to figure out the robot off the ground thing. i didn't see a bar at the end zones...

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

this is like giant tictactoe

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

wow we're going to see a LOT of interesting designs...It'll be awesome to watch/compete :D

Good Luck =)

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Drive on top of another robot...

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

Ack! I can see visibility being a pretty big issue in this.

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Also once you get the tube on you essentially own the spot so holding multiple tubes may be crucial

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Bring it on!

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haha well i guess that makes sense.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

This is a very interesting game...It will be very neat to see what other people's designs are for handling the tubes...The only problems I see is how we get the robots elevated and how do we handle the tubes...anyway I think this year will be very challenging. The "Rack" scares me a little... scary to think how we will get tubes on it. I like the yellowcard penalty. Gives teams a reason to be careful throughout all the matches. instead of just getting a rough penalty 1 match losing a few points then doing it again for other matches you get 2 chances. Scoring reminds me a lot of Tic-Tac-Toe. The spoilers are going to pose a big threat to players. Keepers will be fun to place providing teams get their cameras working. I hope all of the teams in this year's competition have fun and come up with awesome ideas! :3

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

Two words: Wildstang 2001

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

Looks like an awesome challenge. My first year on the team.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

the part where the robot must be off the ground makes team collaboration very useful. I'm going to be looking out for the triplets this year. (imagine 3 robots stacking on top of each other)

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

I am with Ken.

The devil is in the details, but I believe that a Wildlstang 2001 strategy may be too hard to pass up.

The problem will be that Wildstang 2007 will probably try to be Wildstang 2001 PLUS be able to score tubes at will.

Again the devil is in the details, but it may be a very fun game.

Joe J.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

to me it looked like the bots were raising themselves. off the ground, but if this was so then the raising mecahnism belongs to the bot and if that is touching the ground then the robot is touching the ground :ahh:

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

That will be a very Interesting thing to ask first...

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

Does anyone have a copy of the game video yet? maybe someone recorded it... or a link to where it is on the site?

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

i wonder if we could just use EXTREMELY powerful fans... HAHAHA

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

My guess about the raising thing is that we just have to lift the wheels off the ground

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

No it will be the whole robot off the ground. How about tank drive systems :p

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

The actual rule states
So your robot simply CANNOT be touching carpet. Not just 'wheels off carpet', but 'everything off carpet'. This means that jokes about fans notwithstanding, the most bonus you can get is 60 points since at least one robot must be on carpet in order to lift two others.

I've thought about it, and it seems that a crane of some sort built on your manipulator (and a semi-standard hook on the to-be-lifted bot) is probably the most viable lifting method. A more universal method where you jack up an alliance robot would probably be more unweildy.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

I like the scoring possibilities.

256 points from 8 ringers...:)

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

Fastest game of FIRST that I have seen.

$.02

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

I think this is going to make choosing alliance partners particularly complicated- if you take bonus points into consideration, you've got to think about which robots are easy to lift, which can easily lift others, etc, etc.

Plus, think of all the design choices. You can have a hook for another robot to lift you, a hook to lift another robot, a ramp for another robot to drive onto, be small enough to drive onto another robot, a combination of the above...:ahh:

I know, I know, the real game is about the game pieces (and usually decided that way), but I've always been a sucker for the bonus points. =)

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

Does anyone know if it is possible to drop a "ramp" of some sorts in the Home Zone say during auto and complete the remainder of the match? There seems to be conflicting rules saying that we can deploy mechanisms inside the home zone but another rule states that leaving mechanisms behind is a penalty....

Is the FIRST Q&A up?

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

I can't wait!!!:yikes:
This year is going to be fun....
but I hope our robot doesnt fall apart again:ahh:

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

Wow...I didn't think about that... O_O

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

This is going to be Great I cannot wait until March. This is my first First competition. Last year our robot feel apart I hope we do alot better this year

See you all in Pittsburgh

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

I'd bet the lifting device has to be attached to your robot in some way; otherwise it's intentional deployment or detachment of pieces.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

The game Rack and Roll seems like it would be fun.

Did anyone notice that in the kit of parts checklist it only lists that you get (2) 2.5 inch CIM motors?

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

The thing I find interesting is that if you get a ringer on, the only way it can be negated is with a spoiler...if Red places a ringer on a spider leg then blue puts a ringer on top of the red ringer red still gets it...so the spoilers are going to be KEY since that's the only way you can stop your opponent from getting points...that or placing a ringer on first...then maybe using on of theirs to protect yours?

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

yea there are new gear boxes as-well :ahh:

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

Rather than post a million words on how I feel about the game, I'll sum it up short and sweet: I like it!!!!

Heidi (whose mind is swarming with visions of a miniature version of the rack to hold donuts... well, it's either that or go to Krispy Kreme and ask them to make really, really large donuts!)

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

Im wowed. Not only did they give us a intense crazy insane game the also gave something to ponder our minds with. All i have to say is at first I was like Idk if im gonna like this game, but as I was reading the rules I was wowed. FIRST outdid themselves with this one this year. Especially with the rules and the new yellow card thing with the refs. Lets Rack 'N' Roll!

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

Reaction: *blink* *think* ;) I like it.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

I like it!! I think it will be fun to play in actual competition. It definately reminds me of a giant tic tac toe board or something. The playing field looks really naked without the ramps at the end like last year though...I'm going to have to get used to some giant spindly thing now. I think I like last year's game more but I probably just have to get used to it.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

Anyone notice in the animation how they reused robots from animations before? That six-wheeled robot seems to be in EVERY animation EVERY year.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

We still have the robot and the tubes from that year.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

Reaction Part II:

The first thing I thought of after seeing the animation was Alaskan Senator Ted Stevens' speech about Net Neutrality.

"Ten movies streaming across that, that Internet, and what happens to your own personal Internet? I just the other day got... an Internet was sent by my staff at 10 o'clock in the morning on Friday, I got it yesterday. Why? Because it got tangled up with all these things going on the Internet commercially. [...] They want to deliver vast amounts of information over the Internet. And again, the Internet is not something you just dump something on. It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes. And if you don't understand those tubes can be filled and if they are filled, when you put your message in, it gets in line and it's going to be delayed by anyone that puts into that tube enormous amounts of material, enormous amounts of material."

Now you just have to wonder if this speech really inspired the game for this year... :rolleyes:

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

Nope:

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

Crucial to what? Losing?

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

My kneejerk reaction is that I would have liked to be able to see robots hold multiple tubes - that would add a little variety to the design of the robots. However, maybe the game is better without that - it's hard to judge without seeing the game played.

Other than that, I think it should be an interesting game.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

OFFENSE????

DEFENSE????

Which will prevail this year?

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

Me. :D

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

For those of us who are unfamilir, could you please explain the Wildstang 2001 strategy?

Guy

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

I like it, I like it a lot!!

Though i think it will require us to all communicate with each other during build season on what we are doing as a team as far as shape, so that we will be able to stack our robots in the end.

I wish the best of luck to everyone!!

Happy Build season!:D

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

This should illustrate their strategy nicely....

http://www.wildstang.org/main/history.php?year=2001

We were partnered with them at Disney one match that year - great fun.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

i am just going to say i like it, def going to be some interesting strategies and robots.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

Ok I am from team 1778 and we wonder if people know any detail info for the ramp and how that is to be played out.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

My thoughts? This game is boring. (read carefully to get my point please)

Where is the innovation that the past three years had in their design? First Frenzy gave us all multiple directions we could have taken our robot and the way the alliance worked in combination won the game. Triple Play introduced a new game piece, alliance structure, and a look into how we can manipulate it. Aim High took the boring ball and gave us a new system to use it with. Also there were periods and a critical auto-mode. I see nothing to go overly ballistic about, other than robot stacking.

I'm predicting that the robot design results are going to end up like Triple Play robots, where a vast majority of all them are going to look/act alike. It will all boil down to who's robot is faster. To me thats rather dull.

Now, I see game play as a different story. I can say I expect to see really fun matches, team working alliances, and crazy point totals. But the game, how it works, and how you win, is rather boring to me.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

No, I think it's crucial to getting the rings on during the autonomous period, since they rotate "The Rack" before each match. Meaning the green lights, and the spider legs might not be right in front of you.

Now do they rotate it before you place your robots on the feild or after? Does anyone know?

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

My first reaction when I saw the rack was "holy hell."

Game beng explained, it's going to be interesting to see the use of a tactician in these matches. Getting those keepers out looks like it will be crucial to securing at least a few legs early on. It will also be interesting to see robot lifting mechanisms this year, I forsee quite a few flipped or fallen robots at regionals.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

I have to disagree with you, Tetraman. I LOVE this game!!

I think we're going to see a huge variety in robots, unlike last year when there were pretty much just variations of two basic designs. Tons of options for design, strategy, and everything! And the matches are going to be so intense!

SOO PSYCHED! :D

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

i think that this will be a pretty big challenge, the bonus points are a big potential for points but it could also damage a poorly designed 'bot.
plus you can only get so many bots up unless one features an antigrav type thing.
our team thought at first that it would be great to be able to use the opposing alliance's tubes to negate their own points but after longer revision of the rules shows that we can't use them...

big challenge and should be lots of fun, GOOD LUCK TO ALL!!!!

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

Your definition of variety and mine might be different. I can see how many of the robots will be: Chassis, Arm/Tower, Ring gripper on the Arm. The only variety is how they put that into design.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

From 433's initial brainstorming session today, we got a lot of interesting robot design ideas that weren't just the basic arm and chassis...which I won't share, so you'll just have to take my word for it. :P

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

You know if I didn't know any better I would say they (GDC) were shooting for a 10 yr anniversary for Toroid Terror. The 2 games look similar except the '07 version has many different twists. I'm kinda curious as to how the '97 game was played (A Description). Once again The GDC, Dean Woodie and Dave sent another shocker - The season has just begun and I'm curious as to what '08 may bring. :]. I can honestly see the veteran teams having the upper hand on this one if they can remember what they did in '97.
Oh and just for looks what a SHOCKER :confused: :eek: :yikes:

I know that this isn't the thread so no BASHING =) but how much of the robot needs to be off the ground? The whole thing meaning Drive system and all or can there be a pneumatic lift under the robot and that would be the only device touching once everything is lifted up? I will copy this question and move it to the rules thread but wanted some quick insight.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

I will agree that there will always be a robot that is different than a standard, I can be wrong, and I most likely will be wrong, but I feel like many robots will be similar.

Like I said, I don't think the game play will be dull, I just think the design of the game feels a little lacking.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

It was mentioned at kickoff (and in the rules) that it will be rotated after the robots are placed on the field.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

OK - so this is probably in the manual, but I'll ask anyway...:rolleyes:

do the end of match 'elevated robot bonus points' mean one alliance member is not scoring, in that the other robots must be on top of, or suspended by, this robot <someone must be touching the ground, right?>

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

My first reaction.

O.o
Are those... inflatable pool tubes?

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

Robots, and tubes, and spiders OH MY! So much to pay attention to...

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

Dan Kramer, i'm in agreement with your belief, unless you could hover yourself with two ramps and two robots :rolleyes: , but otherwise yes, one robot has to be touching the ground, any other thoughts anyone?

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

Ill start practicing scoring on the other side of the rack now, maybe I'll be good by time St Louis comes around. Man scoring on the other side of the rack will be hard...I think...it might be something that could become easy.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

This reminded me of a thread called, Ewww Spiders, and particularly a post made by KoKoEd.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...5&postcount=22
Jane

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

This was one of my reactions too, but then it occurred to me that these innertubes appear very light, thus the arms can be quite light, hence the average center of gravity isn't going to necessarily be as high, say, last year or the year before where many robots either had a heavy shooter high up or a heavy arm with one or more heavy game pieces high up.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

See, I took a child-like view to my first look at the game... the rack looked like a fun jungle gym :p

I'm really excited for this game. The variety of robot will be intense and the strategy is tough because of the detailed rules on scoring and what colors cancel and which tube does what...

And then this bonus stuff about getting robots off the ground... that will really make each robot varied but hopefully there won't be any dropped or crushed robots due to teammates! :yikes:

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

I assume you havent been on the field yet but you cannot see around the rack very well and it will be key to having control of legs on that side. if you can aim with the camera that will be a big advantage.

I really don't see how it could cause you to lose.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

Very interesting looking game.

My only complaint is in the Rack design. I think we'll see the two sides keeping mostly to themselves, even more than usual in a FIRST competition. This is because it will be insanely difficult to score on the opposing side between the lack of visilibility due to the rack itself and already scored Ringers and facing the opposite direction as the driver is used to. The only interaction will probably be between the robots solely designed to be ramps, driving around the opposing side to slow down the enemy scoring.

I think if it were one large wall there would be a lot more use of the Spoilers and strategic Ringer placement than we are going to see.

Camera usage is definitely going to be critical if you want to score points during autonomous mode.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

I rather like the game. The rack is one of the things I like the most about the game. It feels like there is so many options in the game in the way of strategy of placement. The game play should be really hard a times in the way of getting a view of the field. I guess its time to train our drivers the way of the force:p

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

When I first saw it I was speachless.:ahh: It was so far from what I was thinking. I sat there with my mouth open for like 5 minutes, then my friend elbowed me. I still don't totally know what to say but omg this is going to be interesting. :eek:

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

To me, it seemed just like another FIRST game...is that possible? I wasn't really shocked, but that could either be to not much new in the technology sense, or it's that I've come to expect this type of game. Anyway, I think it will be fun. :)

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

OOOOOOO!!! I totally thought the same thing!!! Then the inner tubes... and on top of that, (eventaully) robots :cool: It's like a child's dream come true lmao.


As per the game, I like it, yet think it has combinations of past years games. It really isn't 100% creative in that aspect. Although the "tower", the 4 lights, and the way to get bonus points in the end gives it it's creativity. It will be quite interesting to see what teams come up with; this game does have many possible solutions.



(side note: since i am on team 102, i must point out this is post number 102 for me hehe)

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

As enticing as that sounds, 8.3.1.R05 states that wedge robots arent allowed... )=

edit:
wow i was completely disproven... thanks ken keung for pointing out my ignorance.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

This game should prove to be AWESOME!
Gonna take team work, skill, and luck to win. :cool:

Best of luck to all of you!

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

This game looks like it will be rather exciting to both watch and play. With so many simultaneous actions (one spoiler can make or break a game), it will be exciting to watch. There are several things that I think could have made this game better, however. It probably isn't the most crowd-friendly game, because it does take awhile to understand. I also wish that the tube on top would own the rack, because that would make the game more dynamic. Other than that, I think it's great.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

8.3.1.R06

<R06> Ramps, platforms as other mechanisms specifically designed to elevate ROBOTS during the END GAME are exempt from Rule <R05> when they are deployed in the HOME ZONE. Such devices deployed outside the HOME ZONE are not covered by this exemption.

Makes the game interesting, doesn't it?

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

I totally agree that it is going to be very difficult to score on the opposite end of the rack from where the driver is standing from, but this brings in the innovation. To score effectively you are going to have to use the CMU in the scoring process like last year. The really effective teams are going to be able to use the CMU in auto and in-game for blind (driver) scoring. I actually like that they are forcing the CMU on us this year, people said they did last year but many teams got away without using (my team included). This year you have no choice but to use it for autonomous, there is nothing else you can do in auto (other than D), unlike last year with dumping.

Game reaction:
First thought.. I like it... not as awestruck as i was last year but inner tubes will be good scoring objects. Last year was the year for strong drive systems, where this year a team can make good use of a omni drive system. However, don't neglect the defense that can be played in this game. A successful robot will be a defensive beast with *multiple* lifting capabilities. This is why I think that omni teams my be disappointed when the going get tough...

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

I see some interesting problems that can occur

Team A "Alright we got are ramp down and are ready to allow a robot to climb on top of us"

Team B "Look! team A has there ramp down and we only got a few seconds left!! Hurry!!"

Team A "NO stop! your comming in to fast!"

Crash!

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

Hahahahaha.

Def something teams need to worry about

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

My jaw dropped when they revealed The Rack.

I don't like the name.

I don't like the impact autonomous has.

I don't like the human player interaction.

I don't like how you can't take over a goal when someone has already placed a ring there.

I do like the lifting, that will be very impressive

I do like how speed is very important

I do like the bonuses from making rows

I do like how teams can really work together to form a great alliance.

That's what I think.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

My first thought was "Crap"
My second was, "hey, this is Toroid Terror."
But I can say, after watching about an hour of Toroid Terror videos from the 97 Mid-Atlantic Regional, strategy-wise they are nothing alike. Nothing.
Toroid Terror rewarded points for actual inner tubes (which this doesn't, which is the first demise of volume scoring). Additionally, Toroid Terror rewarded bonus points only for vertical rows, not horizontal. Toroid Terror had no alliances. It allowed human players to place the tubes on the robot (not just through a slot), and receive new tubes from the robots. The tower freely rotated in Toroid Terror, and several rings could be placed on each prong (you're only allowed 2 this year). Toroid Terror didn't have autonomous, and had no "King of the Hill" or Positioning Bonus points. Toroid Terror allowed bots to carry more than 1 game piece. Now that we've thrown away the strategic value of Toroid Terror, someone please help me develop a game strategy? ;)
As for the vision around the Rack, notice this little rule:

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

I'll believe that we'll have an effective use of the camera when i see it...they've said for the last 3 years that they've made an effective out-of-the-box camera setup, and each year it's a pain. Adding the difficulty of the arena geometry algorithm you have to do in order to properly estimate where the pole is in-system, i'm not holding my breath.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

so im just wondering... and this is most likely against the rules... why not just pick your robot up... and put a tube under it for the bonus points... its not touching the playing field, and if its light enough it wont pop the tube, im sure they thought of that, but it would be interesting if they didnt

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

Well If the team didn't take apart their 1997 robot we would all ready be done. :P

But the game it's self is very nice this year, the only problem will be trying to drive the robot with a huge obstacle in the way that can make it hard to see whats going on.

The USB ext on the operating interface is going to be very cool for inovative controls and also having the ease to make the controllers a lot smaller in size.

Inter tubes are going to be very fun also.

Good Luck Everyone on your design.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

(Looks away from the monitor the rule book)


I love the rule that you can only carry one, can't push during it and such. It's one of those things that will prove interesting on the field.

Add in the USB and it will prove interesting as to what we see.

Scoring seems rather simple.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

It states in <G56> that the robot can't be in contact with any element of the field, which probably includes the tubes.
your right, it would be intresting.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

My first reaction was "Where am I am gonna find pool noodles AND inner tubes in the middle of winter in Michigan?" As for the game, it has potential to be pretty interesting, but I suspect we'll see a lot of similar appendages that we have seen from 2005 (most likely) and other past games.

Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction
 

My first reaction:
"How could I have not figured out the clue before now?"
:o