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Malenddruid 06-01-2007 11:43

Robot ideas
 
Seeing as this year's competition seems rather daunting, (well to me at least) I propose that we use this thread to submit ideas for robot mechanisms or ideas. Ways to elevate the robot, ways to handle the tubes, scoring strategies, anything that will be helpful in designing or building the robot are welcome here. Criticism as well as long as in the FIRST way it is graciously professional.;)

Malenddruid 06-01-2007 11:48

Re: Robot ideas
 
My idea for the way to handle the tubes is to use a hydraulic arm like what our team used with the year tetras were used. have the arm be able to scoop up the tubes, possibly latching onto it gently and be able to tilt or release the tube. somewhat like what is used in construction equipment (The digger thing that scoops up dirt in the bucket)

Bongle 06-01-2007 12:00

Re: Robot ideas
 
1 Attachment(s)
Drivetrain
Seems that the highly-maneuvarable (mecanum) drivetrains will be back in fashion, as you'll need to move laterally in order to accurately place the ringers on the rack. Either that or you'll see more side-mounted game manipulators. It simply doesn't make sense to have a manipulator on the front because you can build the front-back and up-down functionality into the manipulator, while lateral manipulator movement is more difficult.

Lifting - Obviously a ramp to drive onto won't really be feasable: there won't be enough space for another robot AND whatever manipulator you have. Plus it would be very risky for both robots involved.

I suppose if you engineered your piece-manipulator to be extraordinarily strong you could use it to lift robots as well.

If a team could get a large number of collaborators together, they could design a hook and clasp system where all robots have a standard 'handle', and anyone that wants to design a crane to lift them can do so. Actually, that might be a useful 1lb addition to any robot, just to make sure your robot is crane-able. A crame system wouldn't be terribly difficult to add to a strong maniputor, just have a cable on a pulley and a winch mounted down low (for balance). Or if the up-down mechanism for the manipulator is suitably powerful (worm gear), just have a rigid hook mounted to the manipulator.

Edit: If any box-on-wheels team doesn't include at least a handle, then that would be a serious flaw. If you've got a 50lb robot, flaunt it. That's like 30 free points right there.

Red Mage 06-01-2007 16:40

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bongle (Post 548866)
Lifting - Obviously a ramp to drive onto won't really be feasable: there won't be enough space for another robot AND whatever manipulator you have. Plus it would be very risky for both robots involved.

I think that a ramp might be feasible, it's what we want anyway. But yes, the hook is a very good idea.

Rick TYler 06-01-2007 16:48

Re: Robot ideas
 
This is going to be so much fun this year! Since I'm not on an FRC team right now, I can speculate wildly without having to worry about giving up any Top Sekrits.

RobotAddict and I were talking about the most radical idea we could think of and came up with the following.

* Ignore the ringers. Let your alliance partners do that.
* Build a 12-inch-tall, maximum-weight bot with multiple-speed transmissions
* During most of the match, play defense
* At the end, deploy pneumatic forklifts off both sides of your bot, and lift BOTH of your alliance partners 12" off the ground

Would you pick an alliance partner that had lifting as its only non-defensive contribution?

Bongle 06-01-2007 17:08

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Mage (Post 549105)
I think that a ramp might be feasible, it's what we want anyway. But yes, the hook is a very good idea.

Here's my reasoning behind ramps
-A 30-degree ramp was real hard to navigate last year for many teams, and those were teams that KNEW it was going to be there and planned drivetrains accordingly
-Even as steep as a 30-degree ramp would limit your robot to having a flat top at 1.5 feet unless the ramp expanded in length while it deployed.
-Look at some of the speed required to get up the ramp last year. Teams would take full-court runs just to make it up. Do you want your alliance partner having to do that to your precious robot?
-So let's suppose you tell them "NO FAST RAMP EMBARKING". That limits the number and types of drivetrains capable of climbing your ramp.
-Building a robot strong enough to support 120lbs on top of it will add weight and take space that does nothing but (possibly) scores 30 points at the end of a match.
-Tipping: If you knock the controls while a robot is on top or that robot goes too far or not far enough while embarking, you're in big trouble.
Quote:

Would you pick an alliance partner that had lifting as its only non-defensive contribution?
Not really. It is possible to score (edit: 596!) points on the rack, but it is only possible to score 60 points through lifting. And just a note on that idea, I don't think forks are optimal since an error in maneuvering (only on one fork when the drivers think it is on two) could easily result in robot to be lifted just getting flipped instead. Platforms or cranes would probably be easier.

Something I learned last year is although you can be a VERY good defensive robot while not contributing offensively, there will always be offensive robots that are almost as good as you defensively, and can also score. Adding game pieces often doesn't compromise defensiveness to the extent that you have a big advantage by sacrificing them. Only if your game piece is completely useless should you sacrifice it to optimize your defensive capabilities.

Here is my compact rundown on lifting methods:
Ramps:
Pro: Compatible with ANYTHING, since everything can move
Pro: Simple to use
Pro: No centre-of-gravity issues
Con: Since the rest of the field is totally flat, drivetrains may be designed so that climbing angles isn't possible
Con: The idea of 120lbs of barely-controllable robot climbing on top of mine gives me nightmares
Con: Tipping risk of mounting robot makes a mistake while getting on
Con: requires robot to be built tough enough to support its own weight and stresses of potentially getting ram-mounted
Con: Mechanically complex to get up to 12 inches. You'd need an unfolding ramp or lifters in the robot body to do this.
Lifts
Pro: Can get the other robots real high
Pro: If well-designed, compatible with anything
Con: Mechanically complex
Con: Tipping risk if one-sided
Con: Tipping risk if not perfectly mounted

Cranes
Pro: Can conceivably get to 12 inches
Pro: Mechanically more simple than lifts (at least as far as I can think: winch->tower with pulley->other robot)
Pro: Can be built into manipulator that will be there anyway
Pro: Not really a tipping risk for liftee assuming their handle is centre-mounted
Con: Complicated and time-consuming to interface with lifted robot at game time
Con: Requires lifted robot to have a handle
Con: Tipping risk for lifter unless you lift two at once

thefro526 06-01-2007 17:28

Re: Robot ideas
 
I believe that a robot design must be picked for your teams capabilities, style, of driving, and overall mentality. If you team has the money and the resourses and the time then you should possibly build an extremely good ringer scorer. But if your on a team with a limited budget and and minimal resources then mabey a slow powerful defensive robot is more you style.

Regardless of whatever you situation is I think that this will be a great game to promote innovation and there are gong to be many different robot designs this year. A well ballanced alliance may be one of the most important things this year, a mix of good ringer scorers and and lifter bots may be a force to be reconed with.

On different note I think fast manuverable drivetrains will be needed if you are going for anykind of good offense this year. And the multiclass system is a good addition and I think that many of the offensive robots this year will come from the 6 foot class they are already light which gives them a speed advantage, but a good defensive bot should be able to counter that.

2007 Will be the year of the Mecanum Drives;) Now to convice my team to use one

Jay Trzaskos 06-01-2007 17:38

Re: Robot ideas
 
Just to point you guys in a good direction as far as ramps may go, take a look at Wildstang's (111) 2001 robot.



John Gutmann 06-01-2007 17:39

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Mage (Post 549105)
I think that a ramp might be feasible, it's what we want anyway. But yes, the hook is a very good idea.

here.....
Quote:

<R05> "Wedge” ROBOTS are not allowed. ROBOTS must be designed so that interaction with
opposing ROBOTS results in pushing rather than tipping or lifting. Neither offensive nor
defensive wedges are allowed. All parts of a ROBOT between 0 and 8.5 inches from the
ground (the top of the BUMPER ZONE) that are used to push against or interact with an
opposing ROBOT must be within 10 degrees of vertical. Devices deployed outside the
ROBOT footprint should be designed to avoid wedging. If a mechanism or an appendage
(e.g. a harvester for retrieving GAME PIECES) becomes a wedge that interferes with other
ROBOTS, penalties, disabling, or disqualification can occur depending on the severity of the
infraction.

Billfred 06-01-2007 17:42

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sparksandtabs (Post 549165)
here.....
Quote:

<R05> "Wedge” ROBOTS are not allowed. ROBOTS must be designed so that interaction with
opposing ROBOTS results in pushing rather than tipping or lifting. Neither offensive nor
defensive wedges are allowed. All parts of a ROBOT between 0 and 8.5 inches from the
ground (the top of the BUMPER ZONE) that are used to push against or interact with an
opposing ROBOT must be within 10 degrees of vertical. Devices deployed outside the
ROBOT footprint should be designed to avoid wedging. If a mechanism or an appendage
(e.g. a harvester for retrieving GAME PIECES) becomes a wedge that interferes with other
ROBOTS, penalties, disabling, or disqualification can occur depending on the severity of the
infraction.

Keep reading.

Quote:

<R06> Ramps, platforms as other mechanisms specifically designed to elevate ROBOTS during
the END GAME are exempt from Rule <R05> when they are deployed in the HOME ZONE.
Such devices deployed outside the HOME ZONE are not covered by this exemption.

Noah Kleinberg 06-01-2007 17:43

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick TYler (Post 549125)
This is going to be so much fun this year! Since I'm not on an FRC team right now, I can speculate wildly without having to worry about giving up any Top Sekrits.

RobotAddict and I were talking about the most radical idea we could think of and came up with the following.

* Ignore the ringers. Let your alliance partners do that.
* Build a 12-inch-tall, maximum-weight bot with multiple-speed transmissions
* During most of the match, play defense
* At the end, deploy pneumatic forklifts off both sides of your bot, and lift BOTH of your alliance partners 12" off the ground

Would you pick an alliance partner that had lifting as its only non-defensive contribution?


I thought of this too, it seems like a pretty good idea, especially if you're concerned about running out of weight with a ring manipulator. The only problem really is this:

An alliance captain will probably pick a second good ring manipulating robot in the first round. In the second round, the picking is reversed, like last year, so if you're the best defensive/lifting robot, you will probably get picked by the eighth ranked alliance, while you might prefer to be on a higher ranked alliance. And if you end up as an alliance captain as a defense/lifting robot, then you can pick one really good ring manipulating robot, but you'll probably want to pick a second ring manipulator in the second round, and you'll have a late pick in the draft.

John Gutmann 06-01-2007 18:02

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Billfred (Post 549167)
Keep reading.

Sorry, didn't realize there was new rules in the robot section! I have only made my way through the "The Game" Section so far.....I agree, Stang '01....;)

supertroopa86 06-01-2007 19:44

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bongle (Post 549140)
Here's my reasoning behind ramps
-A 30-degree ramp was real hard to navigate last year for many teams, and those were teams that KNEW it was going to be there and planned drivetrains accordingly
...
-Look at some of the speed required to get up the ramp last year. Teams would take full-court runs just to make it up. Do you want your alliance partner having to do that to your precious robot?
-So let's suppose you tell them "NO FAST RAMP EMBARKING". That limits the number and types of drivetrains capable of climbing your ramp.

Our team had no trouble getting on the ramp when right next to it even with the
transmission supplied in the kit of parts

=Martin=Taylor= 06-01-2007 20:20

Re: Robot ideas
 
Although my team has not decided to toss lifters/ramps out all together, we feel that scoring tubes will be a safer bet.

The idea of counting on other robots is just too dangerous. What if a only one alliance member can climb your ramp, and that robot breaks down? You won't be able to score at all!

If I was designing a ramp, I would make it adjustable (user specified angle) and then pre-set it before the match.

Wiirage 06-01-2007 20:48

Re: Robot ideas
 
since this is our first year our teams just trying to keep things simple mostly on the defensive side and we will most likely score on the first row only if we score at alland like alot of teams weve been thinking about a ramp of course

hallk 06-01-2007 22:32

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick TYler (Post 549125)
This is going to be so much fun this year! Since I'm not on an FRC team right now, I can speculate wildly without having to worry about giving up any Top Sekrits.

RobotAddict and I were talking about the most radical idea we could think of and came up with the following.

* Ignore the ringers. Let your alliance partners do that.
* Build a 12-inch-tall, maximum-weight bot with multiple-speed transmissions
* During most of the match, play defense
* At the end, deploy pneumatic forklifts off both sides of your bot, and lift BOTH of your alliance partners 12" off the ground

Would you pick an alliance partner that had lifting as its only non-defensive contribution?

We considered this. Every year there are teams that are picked for defensive alone. This idea is kinda nice since you can run defense or could also serve as a ring runner during the match-basically carry and deliver the rings to your alliance partners, this might be useful if you wanted to score on the rack side away from you. The problem with this type of robot is you are kinda screwed if the bots can't get back in enough time, for example they are broken and in pieces.

Rick TYler 06-01-2007 23:22

Re: Robot ideas
 
Since my fantasy forklift would use pneumatics, it wouldn't be hard to include a small arm that could place a ringer on the low spider posts. A little offense, a lot of defense, capable of picking up two bots at once. Sweet...

y2d2 06-01-2007 23:26

Re: Robot ideas
 
Too bad we can't attach to field elements :( One of our mentors suggested suction cup-ing to the plexiglass at the end of the match to get 1' off the ground :D

670's thinking about an elevator-type mechanism...;)

Ericgehrken 06-01-2007 23:43

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick TYler (Post 549125)
This is going to be so much fun this year! Since I'm not on an FRC team right now, I can speculate wildly without having to worry about giving up any Top Sekrits.

RobotAddict and I were talking about the most radical idea we could think of and came up with the following.

* Ignore the ringers. Let your alliance partners do that.
* Build a 12-inch-tall, maximum-weight bot with multiple-speed transmissions
* During most of the match, play defense
* At the end, deploy pneumatic forklifts off both sides of your bot, and lift BOTH of your alliance partners 12" off the ground

Would you pick an alliance partner that had lifting as its only non-defensive contribution?


I like your idea with the short and defensive robot but what if you are put onto an alliance in qualifying that has two other teams that barely do anything (i.e. wheels on box bots) then you lose a match because of that. I feel each robot should be self sufficient so that it can score well. They only count points for scoring offensively. Your idea will be a good plan for newer teams to design a simpler robots that might not have the ability to make an arm or program a light sensor. Good post.

Donut 07-01-2007 00:38

Re: Robot ideas
 
Want robot ideas? Look to 2005 and 1997, at least for ring manipulation.

Coop 07-01-2007 01:17

Re: Robot ideas
 
our team decided the most awsome(and hardest and least likely lifting mechanism) is akin to a inflatable raft. keep it rolled up till the last 15 seconds or so, or more. drive to home zone, unfurl it(note that it is NOT detachable, it remains attached to ones robot via pnuematics/air cables). alliance robots then drive ontop of the "raft" and it is inflated with much speed. if anyone can accomplish this, i will be impressed. have fun.
btw, first post, gogo penguins!
-coop

BigRed 07-01-2007 01:24

Re: Robot ideas
 
I'm from a rookie team and we discussed the idea of focusing on a robot that could lift and play defense, like the one mentioned before.. One post stated that there are a possible 596 possible points an alliance can get, but how many of the possible points is a team truly likely to get, for instance, based off of previous competitions. I mean, If my team can get 60 points by lifting the two alliance partners off the ground would that make us a valuable alliance partner in the finals?

EricH 07-01-2007 01:46

Re: Robot ideas
 
I am scared. NOT!! Now I have ideas to use, once we decide strategy and requirements.:yikes: You guys should slow down. You can't design a robot in 12 hours or so. Well, I suppose you can, but the one that someone takes 3 weeks to design because they were analyzing the game for 1.5 weeks will slaughter it. Take some time to analyse the game first, then design using these ideas. I predict that some of you, with the level of analysis shown here, will be very surprised at a competition.

Kevin Sevcik 07-01-2007 01:47

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Coop (Post 549741)
our team decided the most awsome(and hardest and least likely lifting mechanism) is akin to a inflatable raft. keep it rolled up till the last 15 seconds or so, or more. drive to home zone, unfurl it(note that it is NOT detachable, it remains attached to ones robot via pnuematics/air cables). alliance robots then drive ontop of the "raft" and it is inflated with much speed. if anyone can accomplish this, i will be impressed. have fun.
btw, first post, gogo penguins!
-coop

Cool idea, but not legal. An inflatable bag is not a pneumatic device you're allowed to use in the Robot Rules.

MrForbes 07-01-2007 02:04

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRed (Post 549751)
If my team can get 60 points by lifting the two alliance partners off the ground would that make us a valuable alliance partner in the finals?

Yes, you would be a valuable alliance partner. But keep in mind that your alliance partners may have problems, if they fall over or have a drive malfunction they won't be able to make it to the end zone and you won't be able to lift them, and won't get your 60 points. If you can score some rings in addition to lifting, you'll be even more valuable.

Donut 07-01-2007 10:22

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by squirrel (Post 549785)
Yes, you would be a valuable alliance partner. But keep in mind that your alliance partners may have problems, if they fall over or have a drive malfunction they won't be able to make it to the end zone and you won't be able to lift them, and won't get your 60 points. If you can score some rings in addition to lifting, you'll be even more valuable.

Building off that, you'd only be a valuable alliance partner for certain robots. If you can only lift robots in the "long" configuration, then you wouldn't be valuable to anyone who builds a "wide" robot.

Lifting mechanisms are going to require some very careful and good thinking if you want to ensure you can lift ANY robot.

Bongle 07-01-2007 10:37

Re: Robot ideas
 
2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by supertroopa86 (Post 549334)
Our team had no trouble getting on the ramp when right next to it even with the
transmission supplied in the kit of parts

My team had no issues either, but there were lots of teams that had trouble maneuvering up the very wide ramp at the end of the match. Maneuvering up a robot that is arbitrarily rotated, will probably move slightly as you get on, and is only slightly larger than your own will be very difficuilt.

Edit: Actually, I guess a flower-petal design with some light metal would work decently. If you have a 1ft-tall robot with a 3ft-tall deployable ramp, then the angles required aren't as bad (18 degrees). If you go for a very tall robot when not folded, then you just have a 11 degree ramp for the mounter to traverse, which is definetely doable. It'd still make me very nervous to have another robot on top, but it'd be workable. If the ramp was side-mounted, then it should be wide enough that navigating it wouldn't be impossible, though you'd still have a tipping risk if your alliance partner came on too fast.

Edit2: Like the attached renders I just made. Which I guess is very much like the wildstang shots shown before.

MrForbes 07-01-2007 11:54

Re: Robot ideas
 
We were tossing around ramp ideas yesterday....the more you think about it, the more solutions there are. Building some of them would be quite challenging, but you really do have a lot of room to work with as far as storing a ramp, if you are careful with the design of both the ramp, and your tube handling arm.

Bongle 07-01-2007 12:11

Re: Robot ideas
 
1 Attachment(s)
Just thinking more about ramps, you could help with a lot of the tipping and space issues by making a bent ramp so that it greatly increased the amount of flat space to drive onto.

The attached one would have a 2 foot long flat section, then a 3 foot ramp section that climbed at 18-degrees to a height of 12 inches. The total amount of flat space would be 3 feet wide (maximum length of robot) and 4 feet long (2 feet on the ramp + maximum width of robot). Mechanically all you'd need is a tiny latch on your manipulator arm (presumably on the left side of the shown robot) and maybe a tiny pusher to get the ramp to fall down. Problem with this is that you're now limited to a 100lb robot that needs these two huge towers on it, and has to be built to support other 120lb robots. I'm not an mechanical engineer, but it seems that this design of ramp could be built pretty lightly if you were creative with materials.

If you put some vertical posts on the underside of the ramp that had really grippy feet, you might remove the robot-shaking issue when mounting as well.

Red Mage 07-01-2007 15:53

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by squirrel (Post 549785)
Yes, you would be a valuable alliance partner. But keep in mind that your alliance partners may have problems, if they fall over or have a drive malfunction they won't be able to make it to the end zone and you won't be able to lift them, and won't get your 60 points. If you can score some rings in addition to lifting, you'll be even more valuable.

undoubtedly you would need to be able to score to even be considered for an alliance. But the ability to earn 60 points would be helpful

fredliu168 07-01-2007 16:47

Re: Robot ideas
 
any way a robot can have a high torque elevator, ground level. Also it can have an arm folded within this space.

The robot can play as a offensive tube stacker until the last 15 seconds. Then it gets a robot to drive on its elevator, and slowly lifts the elevator to 12"s.

raymaniac 07-01-2007 18:09

Re: Robot ideas
 
Hovercrafts anyone? :D

NoSkaOnTheRadio 07-01-2007 18:19

Re: Robot ideas
 
i was talking about the bonus points with my dad yesterday, and we came up with this idea.

1. your robot is fairly flat-backed, and about as tall as the sideboards (this is assuming a forklift-style innertube manipulator near the front of back of the robot: something tall, but not very deep).
2. you have a pair of springloaded panels on the back of your bot, such that if you pulled your bot parallel with the sideboards with a couple of feet in between them, you could release them and one would flip out laterally to create a platform, supported on one side by your robot and on the other by the sideboards.
3. the second panel that i was referring to would be attached to your first panel, but in a way that it would funtion as a ramp.

i know the explanation is vague and probably tough to understand since i can't stand here and pantomime everything with my hands. it's also probably deeply flawed in ways i haven't noticed, but i mean this comment as a sort of jumping-off-point, something to get people thinking. take it however, i just thought it warranted at least a mention.

BrianR 07-01-2007 18:27

Re: Robot ideas
 
This is interesting...

<G30> ROBOT out of bounds - Any ROBOT that touches any surface outside of the field boundary
will be disabled for the remainder of the period (either AUTONOMOUS or
TELEOPERATED). No penalty points will be assessed.

So I guess you could use one of the side walls to support a platform - you are disabled but not penalized, and your teammates can get the 60 pt bonus.

I'm not sure if it would be allowed, but it is technically legal at this time.

Bochek 07-01-2007 18:36

Re: Robot ideas
 
I am really into the idea of getting your robot to stick to the plexy wall.

I am still to read ALL of the rules but has anyone found a rule against it yet?

- Bochek

Kellen Hill 07-01-2007 18:40

Re: Robot ideas
 
You could stick to the wall but you wouldn't get any bonus points because you cannot be touching any part of the field or any field element.

Ericgehrken 07-01-2007 18:43

Re: Robot ideas
 
The plexi-glass wall between the field and the driver's station is considered a field element therefore if your robot is touching the wall then it is not considered elevated. Don't even think of using tubes to elevate your robot either.

MrForbes 07-01-2007 18:46

Re: Robot ideas
 
If that's the only rule that applies, I suppose you could park a robot against the wall, then deploy a ramp from it, and have the wall keep it from sliding as the other robot(s) drive on the first, and still get all your bonus points?

royalfire 07-01-2007 19:03

Re: Robot ideas
 
Our team had a really funny (both :ahh: and:D ):
have a pair of ramps, extending out _far_ (say 5 ft+) that roll up smaller.
In autonomous, wait a few seconds, then unfurl the ramps. During teleoperated phase, the drivers take out fake martinis and stand around looking funny.
At the end of the match, the other two robots roll up the ramps for 60 points.
Bonus feature: The other team cannot pick up rings from behind you: The ramp is in the way! :D :D

arbershametaj 07-01-2007 19:14

Re: Robot ideas
 
I am sorry if I am going to break anyone’s dreams
BUT
Defensive robots are no help. in the past years they mostly get in your way since they are so engaged with defense, now I am not saying that they are they are not helpful but its allot more efficient to build something average that score onto the low and middle legs since if you have been part of FIRST for at least three years you already have these robots build.

A as a last note lifting robots at the end of the match will probably be useless since most teams will no be able to lift or be lifted they will spend most of they time being in your way so it would be very hard to come back.
Pay more attention to the rule that says if you are on an opponent’s home zone at the end the opponent gets 10 point as a penalty, now wouldn’t it be easier to use a high pushing robot to push your opponents onto your home zone and get the 10 point bonus since FIRST really likes those bumpers and pushing has become a big part of the game.

So reminder
1. Just defense robots are not useful at all
2. to avoid number one build a robot wit an average manipulator that’s able to score on low and middle since its already been done
3. A powerful robot at the end of the match would prove the difference between no bonus points and 10 bonus points, and hey if all three of the opposite alliance is caught that’s 30 points

Sorry my post was so long I hope I made some good points and I was helpful
Good luck in 2007 and look in the past sometimes there is the answer

rocknthehawk 07-01-2007 19:27

Re: Robot ideas
 
Wouldn't a team that is building a defensive-oriented robot or low scorer want to sacrifice weight and be 6 ft tall? That way it parks in front of wherever the opposing team is trying to score, and blocks two spiders, and it would just have to push the scoring robot to try and stop it from scoring up high.

while i'm thinking, couldn't said team instead build a 6 ft tall flop bot(so it starts like l, that was ramp shaped (but adjustable,) and then flat, and then fall over at the begining, and then at the end, use pneumatics or something to bring the ramp end down(to fit within the rules), and let the two robots drive on top? ______
/

raymaniac 07-01-2007 19:32

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by royalfire (Post 550287)
Our team had a really funny (both :ahh: and:D ):
have a pair of ramps, extending out _far_ (say 5 ft+) that roll up smaller.
In autonomous, wait a few seconds, then unfurl the ramps. During teleoperated phase, the drivers take out fake martinis and stand around looking funny.
At the end of the match, the other two robots roll up the ramps for 60 points.
Bonus feature: The other team cannot pick up rings from behind you: The ramp is in the way! :D :D

Interesting idea. Good defensive technique. But can you actually do that?

MrBamboo 07-01-2007 19:35

Re: Robot ideas
 
I think if your a robot that wants to be picked up, put on the back of your robot a ring shaped exactly like the game piece, then you can be picked up the exact same way another robot picks up the game piece, just heavier.

slickguy2007 07-01-2007 19:43

Re: Robot ideas
 
For those teams planning on manipulating the spoilers/keepers/ringers , it is probably necessary to be able to handel them whether they are flat on the ground, leaning on a playerstation or being handed thru from the player station.

IMHO, the early regionals are going to be in favor of the ramp bots while everyone is still practicing/debugging/completing their robots. But, by the time we get to Atlanta, the stackers will be the dominating forces in finals.

As for how I think finals in this game is going to be played out.....

1st round picks are going to be aggressive stackers.

2nd round picks are going to be any more aggressive stackers that are left after 1st round picks and then the ramp bots that can both elevate robots for the bonus points and play effective defense.

Good luck to all teams!


edit//

Autonomous doesn't seem to be as important as it was last year. Spotting/tracking to place the keeper(13'' diameter opening) over the spider foot(10'' diameter) is going to be very tough. I don't see too many teams being able to consistently do that, but i do imagine a lot of teams speeding across the field in hopes of hitting an opponent looking to complete the objective of autonomous.

royalfire 07-01-2007 19:47

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by raymaniac (Post 550328)
Interesting idea. Good defensive technique. But can you actually do that?

Probably not, but we're not sure. Those who put serious thought into it suggested inflatable ramps, but I think someone said that wasn't allowed. It's probably infeasible, but it'd be hilarious -and moderately effective- if it's allowed. This was partly in response to our programmers' gripes about the camera code. It's our second year, and we went all low-goal last year due to newbie programmers.

swamp_child 07-01-2007 20:21

Re: Robot ideas
 
You will definitely be seeing a lot of ramp bots. However you have to make sure it is not permanently down, because there is a no wedge rule.

ramps are easy, 179's doing something different, most likely

1086VEX 07-01-2007 20:39

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by swamp_child (Post 550413)
You will definitely be seeing a lot of ramp bots. However you have to make sure it is not permanently down, because there is a no wedge rule.

well is there any other way to get a bot off the ground besides the ramp(or lifting it)???

bear24rw 07-01-2007 20:40

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 1086VEX (Post 550437)
well is there any other way to get a bot off the ground besides the ramp(or lifting it)???

Thusters.


jk about that btw

KDawg 07-01-2007 20:54

Re: Robot ideas
 
I think that yes, we will see some ramp bots, because the lifting at the end is verry crucial; equivelant to about getting a row of 5. Lifting 2 robots a foot would double that, which is 60 points. I think that lifting is a vveerryy crucial task for a team to be able to complete.

Bongle 07-01-2007 21:01

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by arbershametaj (Post 550305)
3. A powerful robot at the end of the match would prove the difference between no bonus points and 10 bonus points, and hey if all three of the opposite alliance is caught that’s 30 points

If your robot is FORCED to be in the opponents end zone at the end of the match, the 10pt penalty is not applied.

T3_1565 07-01-2007 21:15

Re: Robot ideas
 
I do have a question for you all.. If everyone seems to be thinking along the lines of ramps, does this mean noone will build a robot that is a little higher off the ground then most competetions, I mean it doesnt need to be huge off the ground but enough for another robot ( say with a lifting mechenism) to get underneath you to lift you up. Cause out of anything thoughts from me I would see it being easier to have your robot 4 inchs off the ground have someone drive there mechenism under you and you lift your wheels. Just some thoughts!

MrForbes 07-01-2007 21:24

Re: Robot ideas
 
Look at it this way....it takes a lot of work to lift a 130 lb robot twelve inches, or even four inches. The lifting mechanism would have to be powerful, the structure would have to be strong, and also compensate for the balance problem (lifting one robot next to another one will cause the lifting robot to tip, unless it has some type of outrigger to stabilize it). Since all the robots already have a relatively powerful drive system, why not take advantage of it, and let the other robot drive up yours, using the other one's already available power system? Deploying a ramp takes little work.

I'd be really surprised to see more than a handful of robots that try to lift another one.

trilogism 07-01-2007 21:33

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by royalfire (Post 550351)
Probably not, but we're not sure. Those who put serious thought into it suggested inflatable ramps, but I think someone said that wasn't allowed. It's probably infeasible, but it'd be hilarious -and moderately effective- if it's allowed. This was partly in response to our programmers' gripes about the camera code. It's our second year, and we went all low-goal last year due to newbie programmers.

The rules say that when the robot is in the home zone, it can be any size it wants as long as it remains in the home zone. So you could make a 26' horizontal arm that entirely blocks off the opposin teams 9 ringers, which would seriously deter their point scoring ability, being limited to half their ringers.

Edit: See rule R12

T3_1565 07-01-2007 22:21

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Look at it this way....it takes a lot of work to lift a 130 lb robot twelve inches, or even four inches. The lifting mechanism would have to be powerful, the structure would have to be strong, and also compensate for the balance problem (lifting one robot next to another one will cause the lifting robot to tip, unless it has some type of outrigger to stabilize it). Since all the robots already have a relatively powerful drive system, why not take advantage of it, and let the other robot drive up yours, using the other one's already available power system? Deploying a ramp takes little work.

I'd be really surprised to see more than a handful of robots that try to lift another one.
True enough, but do remember it only needs to be 4 inchs... minimum that is.. so it doesnt need to be a huge lift, its a fairly small one anyways, making somehting that has a similar design to anything weight lifting construction machine would work wonderful. Those things can lift Waaaaaayyyyy more than they weigh with no problem up to great heights even, I'm personally not going to rule lifting out just yet lol

+()c|D 07-01-2007 22:23

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by trilogism (Post 550527)
The rules say that when the robot is in the home zone, it can be any size it wants as long as it remains in the home zone.

Which rule are we looking at??? :confused:

b-rant 07-01-2007 22:24

Re: Robot ideas
 
Four words "The Game of Graces"

Jeff K. 07-01-2007 22:25

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by trilogism (Post 550527)
The rules say that when the robot is in the home zone, it can be any size it wants as long as it remains in the home zone. So you could make a 26' horizontal arm that entirely blocks off the opposin teams 9 ringers, which would seriously deter their point scoring ability, being limited to half their ringers.

What if they had something to reach over it?:)

Rafi Ahmed 07-01-2007 22:28

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stonefan5271138 (Post 550623)
What if they had something to reach over it?:)

Then you'd have to make it high.

Jesterofkings 08-01-2007 00:15

Re: Robot ideas
 
Our team had the same idea as some others on this post. we were considering making a forklift style capable of lifting ourselves and one other. do you think this idea is plausible? And another question. if our robot is a lifter style and our teammate is flipped do u think it is against the rules to flip our team bak over?

zander_108 08-01-2007 00:32

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesterofkings (Post 550779)
Our team had the same idea as some others on this post. we were considering making a forklift style capable of lifting ourselves and one other. do you think this idea is plausible? And another question. if our robot is a lifter style and our teammate is flipped do u think it is against the rules to flip our team bak over?

haha.. Now your thinking like battlebots... however, i dont know.. :confused:

DanDon 08-01-2007 00:33

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesterofkings (Post 550779)
Our team had the same idea as some others on this post. we were considering making a forklift style capable of lifting ourselves and one other. do you think this idea is plausible? And another question. if our robot is a lifter style and our teammate is flipped do u think it is against the rules to flip our team bak over?

How exactly would you be lifting yourself? That would require the lift to be touching the ground which means that you wouldnt get points for your robot being suspended since the lift (which is part of the robot) is touching the ground.

Unless you can levitate. :)

Jesterofkings 08-01-2007 01:01

Re: Robot ideas
 
yeah i just read it again and a friend told me. lol. thanx for pointing out though.

Kevin Sevcik 08-01-2007 01:08

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dhoizner (Post 550813)
How exactly would you be lifting yourself? That would require the lift to be touching the ground which means that you wouldnt get points for your robot being suspended since the lift (which is part of the robot) is touching the ground.

Unless you can levitate. :)

Easy, you just grab yourself by your collar, and.....


Quote:

Originally Posted by arbershametaj (Post 550305)
Defensive robots are no help. in the past years they mostly get in your way since they are so engaged with defense, now I am not saying that they are they are not helpful but its allot more efficient to build something average that score onto the low and middle legs since if you have been part of FIRST for at least three years you already have these robots build.

A as a last note lifting robots at the end of the match will probably be useless since most teams will no be able to lift or be lifted they will spend most of they time being in your way so it would be very hard to come back.
Pay more attention to the rule that says if you are on an opponent’s home zone at the end the opponent gets 10 point as a penalty, now wouldn’t it be easier to use a high pushing robot to push your opponents onto your home zone and get the 10 point bonus since FIRST really likes those bumpers and pushing has become a big part of the game.

Umm... I will respectfully disagree. Defense bots can prove vital. The game is all about territory control. A defense bot that can prevent a super row from being built is a huge help. This is easier than in years past because the rows will quite likely only be able to be completed in a few close spaces. Moreover, a defense bot can protect empty spider legs that your own alliance needs for super rows. Scoring bots can't do this, they have to be busy fetching ringers from various places. Defense bots do get in the way, but a good defense bot gets in the way of the opposing team. I will admit that an alliance full of defense bots will have some difficulties suceeding, but I think a good defense bot will be better than an average ringer. I mean... I've seen the difficulties average mechanisms can have threading needles like this. I'd rather an alliance mate hassle my opponents than spend a whole round painfully lining up 2 ringers.

Finally, you should pay more attention to the rule that you're not allowed to impede an opposing robot trying to leave you home zone. It's right there. I'm surprised you think FIRST would let teams FORCE other teams into recieving penalties. The doesn't sound much in the spirit of the competition at all.

+()c|D 08-01-2007 01:09

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesterofkings (Post 550779)
Our team had the same idea as some others on this post. we were considering making a forklift style capable of lifting ourselves and one other. do you think this idea is plausible? And another question. if our robot is a lifter style and our teammate is flipped do u think it is against the rules to flip our team bak over?

I think the forklift idea is a good one, I dont see how you could lift yourself without touching an element of the field. I also think that you would be able to lift up a robot on your team, the only rule that I know about fliping robots over talks about hitting an opposing robot or knocking it over.

jgannon 08-01-2007 01:16

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by +()c|D (Post 550617)
Which rule are we looking at??? :confused:

<R12> says that your robot can expand to 72x72 outside of the home zone, and to an unlimited size inside the home zone.

+()c|D 08-01-2007 01:20

Re: Robot ideas
 
Does anyone know if there is a rule about the possetion of opposite alliances game peices, or even try to cap them? I know there is a rule about trying to de-cap one of their peices, but is there one about obtaining them?

Thanks,
Todd :D

Kevin Sevcik 08-01-2007 01:30

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by +()c|D (Post 550863)
Does anyone know if there is a rule about the possetion of opposite alliances game peices, or even try to cap them? I know there is a rule about trying to de-cap one of their peices, but is there one about obtaining them?

Thanks,
Todd :D

You may possess their pieces. Scoring an opponent's piece is a 10 point penalty. I suspect the piece so scored will be ignored in the final tabulation of scores as well.

+()c|D 08-01-2007 01:45

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik (Post 550872)
You may possess their pieces. Scoring an opponent's piece is a 10 point penalty. I suspect the piece so scored will be ignored in the final tabulation of scores as well.

I just saw the first part <G21>, but what I didn't see was anything about the peice not being scored. Anyone see it in the book?

T3_1565 08-01-2007 07:13

Re: Robot ideas
 
I think the big question for anyone oh might ocnsider lifting other robots is... Are most of the robots have a clearance to them? Most other years, the majority of robots only have at max a 1 inch clearance, which in my opionion makes it very hard for any lift mechanism to get under them. Let's hope that people will be kind for any lifting types lol.

Kevin Sevcik 08-01-2007 12:44

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by +()c|D (Post 550882)
I just saw the first part <G21>, but what I didn't see was anything about the peice not being scored. Anyone see it in the book?

It isn't in the rule book.... yet. I have a strong feeling it will be. You can gain a huge advantage by scoring an opponent's piece properly that could easily offset a mere 10 point penalty. I can't see FIRST penalizing you but still allowing you to benefit and win a match based on the penalized action when it's easy to nullify the benefit of that action.

... Needless to say, if they don't follow my suggested course of action, you will see 57 and a lot of other smart teams taking these penalties when it is beneficial to do so.

Bongle 08-01-2007 13:53

Re: Robot ideas
 
Just thought of another lifting idea:

One robot supplies a hard handle or hook some distance off the ground, and the lifted robot grapples onto it using a FIRST-frenzy style arm and then pulls ITSELF up. This would be adaptable to just about any partner so long as they had a hardpoint up top that they permitted you to use.

aaeamdar 08-01-2007 15:30

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Malenddruid (Post 548859)
My idea for the way to handle the tubes is to use a hydraulic arm...

I would assume that someone in the five pages of replies has posted this already, but:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Section_8
R<46> Items specifically prohibited from use include: [...] Hydraulic fluids or hydraulic components.

So sorry to rain on your idea, but it looks like hydraulics are out.

DjAlamose 08-01-2007 15:39

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aaeamdar (Post 551291)
So sorry to rain on your idea, but it looks like hydraulics are out.

I think what they meant to say was pneumatics.

But back to the topic. I've been doing some research and some thinking and I have thought up of at least 7 different ways to build ramps so there isn't going to be a problem with finding a way to do it. Also these tubes weigh only ~1 lb. You wouldn't need much of an arm to manipulate them. Plus the suction cup system they give us seems to work nicely (from what I’ve heard on these forums). I really don’t see the issue in making a robot that can both be a ramp and place tubes. The only thing I see coming into play is deciding exactly how to get everything within the size restriction for your weight class. Obviously a shorter robot is nice for weight, but it becomes harder to get to the high tubes. This year I can't wait to see all of the different robots at competition because I do believe that we will all be surprised at how different they will all be.

Until then though, good luck teams!

Zoheb N 08-01-2007 15:48

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dhoizner (Post 550813)
How exactly would you be lifting yourself? That would require the lift to be touching the ground which means that you wouldnt get points for your robot being suspended since the lift (which is part of the robot) is touching the ground.

Unless you can levitate. :)

Easily especially if you are going to the LSR.. all you do is launch a hook up into the rafters and winch yourself up:D

Barry Bonzack 08-01-2007 16:12

Re: Robot ideas
 
I'm thinking a possible hook, suctioncup, or corkscrew design for a manipulator to transport ringers. I can't seem to find pictures of other's designs like this although I am sure they are out there.

2005 team 16 and team 1543 used corkscrews
2004 team 16 did a very good suction cup design to more arount the 2x multiplier ball.

Bochek 08-01-2007 23:09

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoheb N (Post 551314)
Easily especially if you are going to the LSR.. all you do is launch a hook up into the rafters and winch yourself up:D


i was thinking of doing this, launching a BF magnet up into the rafters (assuming they are metal) and hoisting yourself and your other 2 teammates up into the air.

technically your not touching any feild eliments.

- Bochek

burkey_turkey 08-01-2007 23:23

Re: Robot ideas
 
im surprised there is no height limit this year. even if it was something outragous like 15-20', it would be worth it just to avoid loopholes like that. FIRST is usually smarter than this.....its almost like they want us to hook onto rafters....

Bongle 08-01-2007 23:39

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by burkey_turkey (Post 551789)
im surprised there is no height limit this year. even if it was something outragous like 15-20', it would be worth it just to avoid loopholes like that. FIRST is usually smarter than this.....its almost like they want us to hook onto rafters....

It's really a moot point. A team that was only good at scoring 90 points at the end of a match by rafter-ing would get demolished at the georgiadome.

Kymber 08-01-2007 23:48

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoheb N (Post 551314)
Easily especially if you are going to the LSR.. all you do is launch a hook up into the rafters and winch yourself up:D

Alright guys, as a member of the LSR planning committee I have to jump in and say that this is not such a great idea. First of all this venue is owned by Harris County and they are not going to allow anything to be launched up into the rafters. Secondly the audio visual cables run up through the rafters as well as electrical and lighting so Seargent Productions will have a cow if you clip one of their wires with your projectile. Thirdly we have a fabulous little gal if I do say so myself who most people refer to as the safety nazi and since I am that fabulous little gal I can guarantee you that I will be watching and waiting for just such an occurence and so will Jim Westmoreland aka GOD of the Referees. So I definitely think you might want to reconsider this. Thank you and use your creative ideas to come up with something that will not be a safety hazard or damage the facillity.

Kymber
aka The LSR Safety Nazi

+()c|D 09-01-2007 00:36

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik (Post 551135)
It isn't in the rule book.... yet. I have a strong feeling it will be. You can gain a huge advantage by scoring an opponent's piece properly that could easily offset a mere 10 point penalty. I can't see FIRST penalizing you but still allowing you to benefit and win a match based on the penalized action when it's easy to nullify the benefit of that action.

... Needless to say, if they don't follow my suggested course of action, you will see 57 and a lot of other smart teams taking these penalties when it is beneficial to do so.

That was my idea too. If an opposing teams ringer was placed over one of their other ones it could break up a big row and cut the score in half!!

All I can say is that it would make for some crazy play in elim. matches.

Jesterofkings 09-01-2007 11:16

Re: Robot ideas
 
I Bet someone has asked this already and i missed it but would your team had to choose an alliance partner would you choose an alliance partner who has cabale of picking up an alliance partner, scoring on low and middle goals with defense capabilities or a robot who was pure offense who can score on all three levels? :confused:



Thank you for your answers :D

65_Xero_Huskie 09-01-2007 12:08

Re: Robot ideas
 
If you could get all 3 robots into the air, you really wouldnt need to score that much, i think 90 points is going to determine the match every game.
*If you could get all robots into the air at the same time, then you would have to win some sort of award.*
But i highly doubt its going to happen ever this year. Good Luck :yikes:

Nica F. 09-01-2007 12:21

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 65_Xero_Huskie (Post 552102)
*If you could get all robots into the air at the same time

amazingly, i wouldnt be suprised if a team somehow came up with a way to elevate themselves from the ground. FIRST Teams are really really creative these days. lol



on another note, the multiplied points you recieve from lifting other robots up does seem like a match decider in a varitey of situations. But then again, same as last year, you dont know if theres enough time to necessarily get to do that at the end of the match.

Jake177 09-01-2007 12:23

Re: Robot ideas
 
What if you built your robot so that it could climb on top of a "box on wheels" robot? If you watch the video labled "2003 web video" on this page http://www.swindsor.k12.ct.us/Highsc...ia_video.shtml you will see that this is possible. I don't know how practical it would be for this year's game, but it's definately something to think about.

Bochek 09-01-2007 12:33

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by burkey_turkey (Post 551789)
iits almost like they want us to hook onto rafters....

;) i think you might be onto something.

carbuff 09-01-2007 12:52

Re: Robot ideas
 
wheels i would highly recommend wheels with the two in the middle powered and run a chain on to the front and front to the back;)

DjAlamose 09-01-2007 14:26

Re: Robot ideas
 
They are not going to let you hang from the rafters. Plus people going to GLR would have to grab somethign thats above 100ft. high. Then once you get to Atlanta, you are out of luck.

team540pr2007 09-01-2007 15:36

Re: Robot ideas
 
yes you can have an extendable ramp, the only width restriction applies to the starting dimensions. if you have an interior ramp that extends out then it is perfectly legal

coffeybeanz 09-01-2007 17:36

Re: Robot ideas
 
so has anybody figured out some good ideas for picking up the ringers?

pauluffel 09-01-2007 21:50

Re: Robot ideas
 
Staying off the ground without the help of your allies? Helicopter and flywheel to power it after the end of the match.

Donut 09-01-2007 22:50

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by coffeybeanz (Post 552382)
so has anybody figured out some good ideas for picking up the ringers?

Yep, it's called 1997. Actually we came up with the ideas without using those, but alot of good ring grabbing designs can be seen in that year's robots.

Malenddruid 14-01-2007 13:35

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by coffeybeanz (Post 552382)
so has anybody figured out some good ideas for picking up the ringers?

Possibly some sort of grabber thing that can pick up the rings wrapping around them would seem feasible. A hook would be a possiblity as well.

Zoheb N 17-01-2007 17:14

Re: Robot ideas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kymber (Post 551824)
Alright guys, as a member of the LSR planning committee I have to jump in and say that this is not such a great idea. First of all this venue is owned by Harris County and they are not going to allow anything to be launched up into the rafters. Secondly the audio visual cables run up through the rafters as well as electrical and lighting so Seargent Productions will have a cow if you clip one of their wires with your projectile. Thirdly we have a fabulous little gal if I do say so myself who most people refer to as the safety nazi and since I am that fabulous little gal I can guarantee you that I will be watching and waiting for just such an occurence and so will Jim Westmoreland aka GOD of the Referees. So I definitely think you might want to reconsider this. Thank you and use your creative ideas to come up with something that will not be a safety hazard or damage the facillity.

Kymber
aka The LSR Safety Nazi

I know this would be a safety hazard and would not be a good thing to do, but just thought I would throw it out there cause it was something a few of us were joking about doing

Rick-906 17-01-2007 17:36

Re: Robot ideas
 
a cool idea for a drivetrain:
Tankdrive w/shuffle
imagine your basic tank drive, with a pair of tracks mounted so that they are perpendicular to the other tracks --> |=| the second set of tracks are attached to a system of pneumatics that allow it to be raised or lowered. what results is a robot that has exceptional stability, traction, and mobility. if you can handle the engineering challenge that is...


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