Re: Rules Questions
 

<g14> sec 7, pg 6.they are ignored, but if it is put on by the same team on the same color, they would be disqualified (dumb idea to do it anyways) and they would cancel each other out, meaning no points, and a dq.

Re: Rules Questions
 

good point, its very late on the east coast, and my quest to memorize the rule book is getting hazy. i did discuss today that that rule means that no previous years' batteries can be used, only the models this year, so you can buy more batteries of the same model, just cant use previous year's batteries. tomorrow if this hasn't been fully cleared up, ill find the rule or depict it the best i can.

Re: Rules Questions
 

one thing that i actually got caught up on was 2 very conflicting rules. first <g23> sec 7, pg 7 it states that "GAME PIECES may only be entered onto the field through the CHUTE." and then <g48> states that "...either by attempting to throw it to a ROBOT or onto the RACK(which in my opnion would be close to imposible, do to the 3 inches we have to vary with the inner diameter of the tubes and the 10 inch diameter of the foot, plus the 4" STINGER)..." and then ti goes on and says " if GAME PIECES are thrown , they must be thrown over the top of the alliance station wall..."

Re: Rules Questions
 

<r53> sec 8, pg 21. you can ONLY purchase and use the 2007 model batteries, ES17-12, from MK Battery, in qualifier and elimination matches. other year batteries can be used in development and PRACTICE matches ONLY.

Re: Rules Questions
 

To add to this, you can go out and buy more batteries OF THIS TYPE ONLY. This has been the rule previously, as in any battery of the type supplied in the KOP is legal and any other type is not.

Re: Rules Questions
 

the ramp wouldnt be used for your robot....just the other robot(s). ultimately to the best of my knowledge, the max u can score bonus-wise is 60 pts. no way to get all 3 in the air unless dropping a ramp is allowed, meaning that not only would i have to drop one, but another team woudl also....

Re: Rules Questions
 

im not clear on if we have to use thes year gearboxes design or are we allowed to or can we use last years design

Re: Rules Questions
 

By the way did anyone really understand the procedure to start a match

specifically where the ref puts the rack in motion
does he shake it or spin it

and can the rack be spun throughout the match or do the spiders just swing in pendulum fashion?

please dont say things you are not sure of thanx

Re: Rules Questions
 

<R05> "Wedge” ROBOTS are not allowed. ROBOTS must be designed so that interaction with opposing ROBOTS results in pushing rather than tipping or lifting. Neither offensive nor defensive wedges are allowed. All parts of a ROBOT between 0 and 8.5 inches from the ground (the top of the BUMPER ZONE) that are used to push against or interact with an opposing ROBOT must be within 10 degrees of vertical. Devices deployed outside the ROBOT footprint should be designed to avoid wedging. If a mechanism or an appendage (e.g. a harvester for retrieving GAME PIECES) becomes a wedge that interferes with other ROBOTS, penalties, disabling, or disqualification can occur depending on the severity of the infraction.

ramped robots aren't allowed on opponents but then this rule comes in

<R06> Ramps, platforms as other mechanisms specifically designed to elevate ROBOTS during the END GAME are exempt from Rule <R05> when they are deployed in the HOME ZONE. Such devices deployed outside the HOME ZONE are not covered by this exemption.

Re: Rules Questions
 

If you can't score an opponents playing piece, how can you help each Alliance???

Re: Rules Questions
 

LOL I was wondering that myself.

Don't play defense? Don't deploy spoilers? Lose???

The art of coopertition seems a bit lost in this year's game.

Re: Rules Questions
 

These rules ( g23 and g 48 ) are a clear and obvious conflict. This could be critical if you want to feed your robot in a different way than through the chute.

Hopefully this will get cleared up soon.

Re: Rules Questions
 

I think that rule g23 is claiming that RINGERS can only go one way through the chute, onto the field, and not the other way, into the alliance zone. This prevents teams ffom hoarding the RINGERS where the other team cannot go. Same idea goes for RINGERS thrown off the field, they get placed back on when it is safe g22 (the previous rule)

This means that it is ok to throw the RINGERS over the alliance station wall and to send them through the chute onto the field, but not through the chute to the alliance zone.

Re: Rules Questions
 

<g07> sec 7, pg 5. "Center RACK position - After all six ROBOTS are in their starting positions and the DRIVERS, COACHES and HUMAN PLAYERS are in the ALLIANCE ZONE, the RACK will be moved (translated and/or rotated) to an arbitrary position so that the center of the RACK is within a 3 foot radius of the playing field center but the exact location and orientation of
the RACK is unpredictable. After this point in time no ROBOT may be moved or
repositioned until the match starts."
this means thats after all roborts have been properly set in the home field and all students and mentors leave the field, the refs on the field go and randomly spin it either left or right, AND it can be pushed or pulled around up to 3 feet away from the exact center of the field. so not only that it could be rotated, it can be relocated.

Re: Rules Questions
 

<g23> states that any game piece( which means ringers and spoliers only)can be passed form alliance zone into field through the chute, not the other way around, as you said. <g48>
states that they can enter game pieces by throwing it over the wall(from the start, not just if it was dropped out of the field, which would be put right back where it was put right inside field)passing through the chute, either to a robot or to the ground fr a robot pcikup.

Re: Rules Questions
 

with regard to g09:
Herding of multiple GAME PIECES, or herding of a GAME PIECE on the floor while in POSSESSION of another GAME PIECE is not permitted (as this would be considered POSSESSION of more than one GAME PIECE)

Is this going to apply to the last 15 seconds of a match, when a robot that somehow unfolded (to get other alliance members off the floor), and as a direct result of that action pushed out of the way several game pieces?

Re: Rules Questions
 

as long as your not "herding" them around, and from what i understand, you can only "deploy" your full robot in the home zone safely so no rules will be infringed. you can deploy your robot fully out to 72 inch by 72 inch on the field, but the wedge rule it VERY strict this year.

Re: Rules Questions
 

I am curious if there is a quick pointer to some FORMAL statement that suffering a penalty (even one that results in your robot being disabled), in order to keep from losing a match, is "against" the spirit of FIRST.

With the exception of actions that cause one's team to be disqualified, I tend to think of penalties as just "points". Some points are added to your score. Some points are subtracted from your score.

With the exception of actions that are cause for a DQ, I am unaware of anything immoral, malicious or ungracious about reducing your own alliance's score somewhat, in order to avoid seeing the opposing alliance's score grow enough defeat your alliance.

If the actions that generate negative points were against the spirit of FIRST, then I would presume that FIRST would simply DQ you for doing them. Instead most penalties seem to be designed to emphasize having teams accumulate postive points, but not exclude occasionally making the wise choice of picking up a few negative points in order to avoid completely losing a match.

After all, match points are used before ranking points are used.

Is there a pointer to a RULE?

Thanks
Blake

Re: Rules Questions
 

Blake is exactly right. In many competitions, competitors may choose to take a penalty as a better outcome in a game. In football an offense may take a "Delay of Game" penalty to give their punter more room to kick. A defensive back may take a "Pass Interference" penalty to prevent a touchdown. In baseball a pitcher will often intentionally walk opposing batters to create a favorable situation for the defense. In chess it's common to sacrifice a piece to gain position or initiative.

If the GDC wanted these actions to be outlawed completely, they would have made the penalties harsher. As it stands, I'll gladly take -20 points for my alliance to turn their 256-point row of eight into three four-point rows of two if I can't get my hands on any spoilers.

Re: Rules Questions
 

if u take off an opponents ring from the rack would u get a double penalty for taking a ring off and holding an opponents ring. if this has already been answered please just direct me.

Re: Rules Questions
 

I don't believe that the rules say anything about POSSESING an opponents ring, just scoring it.

Re: Rules Questions
 

In some games, competitors make tradeoffs to gain an advantage, but in many other games, intentionally breaking a rule just because the normal penalty won't hurt you is considered straight-out cheating.

Re: Rules Questions
 

So, theoretiocally, you could posses two or more of your opponents rings, and the only penalty you could get is a 10 pointer for having more than one ringer.

Or you could knock over any of their rings in your home zome without a penalty.

Re: Rules Questions
 

I was trying to say that rules <g23> and g<48> do not conflict because <g23> refers to how the ringers move through the chute, towards field only. <g48> refers to the different actions that a Human Player can do, either push a ringer through the chute or throwing them over the wall.

Rule <g22> is only for ringers that exit the field on the sides. <g23> and <g22> both refer to ringers going onto the field but from different areas.

Rules Question
 

Does it say any where in the rules that we cant knock down our opponents ringers after/during the Autonomous mode.

Re: Rules Question
 

rule G20, bottom of page 6 in section 7 gives all the details

Re: Rules Question
 

I believe that the question refers to the ringers that are leaning against the player station wall at the beginning of the match.

Re: Rules Question
 

<G20>De-scoring - ROBOTS may not remove RINGERS or KEEPERS once they are HANGING.
If a RINGER or KEEPER is moved out of a HANGING configuration after the POSSESSING
ROBOT has released it, it is still considered HANGING. If a ROBOT incidentally removes a
RINGER or KEEPER from the SPIDER LEG on which it was HANGING (e.g. knocks it off
while placing another GAME PIECE), a 10-point penalty will be assessed. Obviously
intentional removal of a RINGER or KEEPER will result in a disqualification of the offending
team.

Re: Rules Questions
 

i think the guy was asking if the legs are in motion or not after the movement of the rack.

Re: Rules Question
 

I don't know if that's what the original poster meant, but I'd sure like to know what the rule on that is. Touching an opponent's game piece is legal, "herding" multiple game pieces is not. Is knocking them down going to be counted as herding, since you'll probably end up pushing them together?

Re: Rules Question
 

I believe that if you knock each one down individually it would technically be legal, but i feel that this is a question for the Q&A.

Re: Rules Questions
 

I was talking about the 9 ringers that were leaning on your side of the field when the game starts. There isnt a rule saying that you cant knock down your opponents ringers is there?

Re: Rules Questions
 

An intentional walk in baseball or sacrificing a piece in chess are not breaking rules. However, an intentional delay of game or pass interference penalty in football, or an intentional foul in basketball (as in, when you foul someone to stop the clock and get the ball back) are definitely in violation of the rules, but they can be smart, and they are not necessarily ingracious. Doing ridiculous stunts after scoring a touchdown (think Chad Johnson or Terrell Owens) just because the $25k penalty doesn't mean much to you is ingracious; it's about breaking the rules because you're a jerk, not because it's part of the competition.

In any case, <G20> says that intentional descoring is a DQ. If it were only a 10 point penalty, I would plan on doing it, I would plan on seeing it done, and I wouldn't feel it ingracious on either side.

Re: Rules Questions
 

I have found a very interesting/disturbing problem.

The rules are very clear about possessing multiple tubes. My question then becomes... every team is required to have a flag above their robot. I understand this isn't GP, but that isn't the question at hand. If a team were to place a ringer on another teams flag, I believe this constitute possession of a ringer for that team, and thus they would incur the 10 pt penalty every time they picked up another ringer.

This is clearly against the intent of the game, but I want it to get out there well before regionals start.

Possible solutions to this problem:

• Remove flags from robots
• Don't count ringers possessed by flags as in the possession of a robot (creates other problems)
• Penalize teams for putting ringers there (needs to be severe enough as a deterant)
• Yellow Card? (utilizes a new rule! Yeah!)

I can't say any of these are perfect solutions, but I think that this needs to be addressed as it could cause major problems during the competition.

Obviously something needs to be done, otherwise we'll end up playing a massive game of pin the tail on the donkey, err drop the ring on the robot.

Re: Rules Questions
 

2 questions actually

1. If your robot gets disabled/breaks down in your opponents end zone, do you still receive the penalty at the "end game"?

2. If your opponent blocks you from leaving their end zone, and forces you to stay in there, do you receive a penalty during the "end game"?

Re: Rules Questions
 

So if blocked you don't get penalized.

Re: Rules Question
 

Where is the rule that talkes about "herding" the gamepeices. I know it says that you cannot have more than one peice on the robot, but i dont think it says anything about pushing them around.

Re: Rules Questions
 

according to this rule herding is illeagal

Re: Rules Questions
 

[quote=worldbringer;549280]There's no reason that two robots can't fit on top of one robot.[quote]

Remember, a robot can expand as far as it wants during the end game within the confines of the home zone and the ceiling; that's up to 8' by 26'8" by ceiling height. I think two robots can fit in that space.

Re: Rules Questions
 

No, you will get a 10-point penalty for doing that.

Re: Rules Questions
 

I have a feeling that this thread will help you think about this issue:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...threadid=51133

Re: Rules Questions
 

you get a penalty for scoring a opponents piece, not carrying it

Re: Rules Questions
 

R12 also states that inside the home zone there is no limit to length and width; they were talking about expanding in the home zone at the end of the game so that robots can climb onto you

Re: Rules Questions
 

Are you allowed to hold a ringer through the chute and have your hand on the playing field side of the control area? Also, are you allowed to have your robot arm reach into the control area to pick up a ringer?

Re: Rules Questions
 

<S02>HUMAN PLAYERS, DRIVERS, and COACHES may not directly contact any ROBOT at any time during the match. Illegal contact will result in the disabling of the TEAM'S ROBOT for the remainder of the match.

<S03>ROBOTS can not break the plane of the CHUTE. Violating this rule may result in the disabling of the ROBOT for the remainder of the match.

Re: Rules Questions
 

Okay, we're at over 100 posts in this thread, and there are discussions about at least 10 different rules. I'm closing this thread for the sake of keeping things organized. Please continue to discuss these rules, but start a new thread, and title it appropriately. For example, "<R12> robot expansion rules". This will make it much easier for people to find information about specific rules. Thanks.