2007 Kit
 

So what does everyone think of this year's kit?

Several things I noticed

• New Items
  • Battery (kinda obvious)
  • Off-White FisherPrice Motor/Transmission
  • Labview Software
  • Tie Wraps (Did they make a new appearance?)
  • Power Distribution System
  • Back-Up Battery (it's Yellow!)
  • Banebots Motor
  • Banebots Gearbox
  • Panel Signal Device
  • New Radios
  • AndyMark Designed Kit wheel!
  • New Kitbot Gearbox
    • 12:1 Banebot Plantary Gear (for 2.5" Cim)
• And the return of:
  • Cims (2.5" Diameter)
  • Mini-Bike's (3" Diameter)
    • On a sidenote I'd like to request that the standard name for the 3" motor be "Mini-bike", and for the 2.5" to be referred to as "Cim"
  • 2006 Controller

So what did everyone else think of it?

addition:

Re: 2007 Kit
 

Those all new 6" Wheel (replaces Skyway Wheels) can be purchased on AndyMark.biz.

:)

Re: 2007 Kit
 

I'm not normally one to gripe but I am highly irritated that they aren't allowing us to use batteries from past years. Our team made a serious investment in batteries over the last two years and now all they are good for is practice, holding the door to our office open, and taking up space on our electrical shelves. The only external difference I can see so far is past year's batteries were made in Taiwan and this year's batteries are made in Vietnam. In my opinion not enough of a difference to warrant discontinuing use of other batteries. Or am I missing something painfully obvious?

I question the logic in doing this and wonder how many other teams this imapacts in a way similar to our team!

Agitated in Appleton.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

Surprised no one has mentioned the vacuum components that they added this year: the venturi generator, the suction cups, and the additional tubing.

Oh, and I bet MOE is loving the neon green pneumatic tubing.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

That's one thing that bothers me, too. We just bought a whole bunch of new batteries last year (then had to buy another batch after they didn't have the EP sticker on them), and now we can't even use them. This means that we're going to have 12 batteries sitting around that don't serve us any real purpose.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

Agreed on the batteries. We're one of those teams who can't just go out and by more batteries due to budget issues. I only got a peak at the kit since we had to get ready for a vex competition but the first thing that made me smile was the suction cup package...oh and the neon green tubing of course :D:D:D

Re: 2007 Kit
 

What about that indicator light and solid state relay? What're we supposed to do with that?

Re: 2007 Kit
 

The rules stated that there will be wiring instructions on the FIRST website, in the Documents/Manuals area. But, nothing yet :(

I am very disappointed that the IFI breaker panel is not allowed, as far as I can tell. The new distribution block and fuse panels are more weight that Raul won't let me have :)

-Nate

Re: 2007 Kit
 

Well, battery gripes aside (Was 1293 in 2004 the only team that ran its season on two batteries?), I dig this kit. You've got the right balance of getting the smaller teams underway and enough goodies to really get things going for the upper-level teams.

I foresee omni heads jumping for joy over the newer, more compact, cheaper CIM planetaries from BaneBots. You can definitely mount them up in more places than the old kit transmission. So long as the reliability is there, I'm sold.

I'm also noticing that the as-received kit is down on power this year. You can get two more small CIMs and one more large CIM, but you know how things are when they're out of sight. (They're out of mind.)

I also bemoan the continued absence of the IFI breaker panel, but we'll survive. Oh, and did anybody think we got enough 6 AWG crimps?

The media packet was nice and organized, moreso than past editions.

Oh, and I'm feeling the new AndyMark-provided wheels. They're small, lightweight, and grippy as anything I've seen in the kit.

The absence of a few choice parts like the breaker panel grinds on me a bit, and the battery gripes are obvious, but overall it's not that bad a kit. I'd give it a low A or a high B.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

The pessimist in me thinks that this rule was written simply to drive extra (unnecessary) business to a new FIRST supplier. The optimist in me certainly hopes this is not the case, but so far the batteries seem identical so I can't figure out why there'd be any technical reason to prohibit last year's batteries.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

The Battery issue seems to be recurring. FIRST rules that because the battery has a new part number, it is different then previous batteries.

Teams argue that there is not significant difference between previous batteries and the new ones, and should be allowed to use older models.

FIRST responds by saying that its okay that only two batteries will be allowed, because you can charge them overnight.

Teams are perplexed, and frustrated that FIRST doesn't 'get it'. The worry isn't with starting the day off with fresh batteries, but finishing it with fresh batteries. It seems like FIRSTs expectations of battery use and use in reality are very different.

Refs and inspectors at regionals do 'get it' and no trouble is encountered.

Why this has to come up, year after year, is beyond me. Perhaps FIRST should just specify that the kit supplied, or equivalent, battery is legal for use. It would solve a whole bunch of headache.

Now that thats out of my system. I have not be able to go over the kit list in detail. Is anything noteable missing? Specificly things like motors and major electronics components.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

Lightheartedly, I would like to remind all of you who have made serious investments in batteries to remember to recycle them :D

Re: 2007 Kit
 

This thread notes:

The change could have been for safety.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

Did anyone notice the gear ratio on the banebot transmission 12:1 (I think), but weren't the KOP transmissions some other ratio? isn't 12:1 very slow?

Re: 2007 Kit
 

The '05-'06 kit gearbox (and AndyMark Gearbox) are 12.75:1. Similar.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

Old ones were 12.75:1 iirc.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

I mourn the death of the van door motor. Requiem in pacem, good friend - you have served FIRST well.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

I tested out the vacuum kit this afternoon, and it really sucks!!!

That is to say, it seems to work well. It holds on to the inner tubes with no problem.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

Is that with the 1 vacuum cup in that came in the kit?

Re: 2007 Kit
 

no no no not the van door take the mini bike or the window motor but don't take the van door
i think we need to make a memorial

Re: 2007 Kit
 

Yes. The vacuum generator does need to vent air all the time, though, so I'm not sure if it would be too big a drain if connected to a whole robot pneumatic system.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

if we didnt use last years transmission are we allowed to use it this year? last year we used a custom and it was horrible getting it to work..so we have last years that was in the kit of parts that we are wanting to use. any one know??

please let us know
3rd year team but you can still consider us rookies
:]]

Re: 2007 Kit
 

Also note the new IFI radio sizes (Both OI and RC), seem to be light enough, but a bit bigger.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

Yes the vacuum generator is really cool!!!:)

Re: 2007 Kit
 

I would be much happier if they allowed, like you said, batteries that are equivalent to the new ones, at least for a year or two. As I stated earlier, we just invested in a whole bunch of new batteries last year. Now, I know that some teams don't go through an entire battery in one round, but we do, meaning that we need at least 6 batteries to ensure we have a fresh one, especially if it's eliminations (and sometimes that's not even enough!). With the new batteries, we would have to buy probably 6 or 7 new batteries to have enough to get through an entire regional.

I'm hoping that they'll change it to allow equivalent batteries, though I doubt they will.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

Thats why we can use 4 Clippard tanks this year.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

I haven't physically done anything with the new Transmissions yet, but I wonder how they compare to the old ones we used to receive. Also, I'm not really a big software buff, but the new electronics are kinda cool...

Re: 2007 Kit
 

Does anyone know where to find the virtual kit of parts for 2007?

Thanks

Re: 2007 Kit
 

Eventually it will be released by Autodesk. But so far it hasnt been.

http://firstbase.autodesk.com/?nd=kitofparts

Re: 2007 Kit
 

Yes, I have been wondering if FIRST thought at all about the environmental impact of suddenly making thousands of existing perfectly good batteries obsolete overnight. I suppose they are good for practice and use in previous years robots for demos and such but I still think this was possibly the most environmentally UNfriendly move FIRST has ever made. What a waste. Folks if you don't want, need, or have a good use for your old (now obsolete) batteries from previous years PLEASE consider either finding a new useful home for them or at least properly recycle them.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

I too shed a tear for the van-door motor. It has been a very good friend over the years. :(

Re: 2007 Kit
 

The only way that you could use last years (unmodified) transmission is if it is a COTS mechanism that is currently available for sale to all of the teams. As IFI is no longer selling it, you are likely out of luck.

Eugene

Re: 2007 Kit
 

I also liked the van door motor and the old batteries. Espically since we just made a really nice charging station last year. I really like the new AndyMark stuff and the new pneumatics.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

Comparing last year KOP drive train with this year. 2006 the drive train with the addition of 2 21 tooth sprockets, 2 28 tooth sprockets, a box chain and 4 kludged up wheel adapters gave a team a nice 4 motor 4 wheel drive base. Could be done in one night. With this year's kit we get 2 wheel drive and the opportunity to spend allot more $$$ to get 4 wheel drive out of the kit drive train. What do we do? Buy 2 more 56 MM gear heads and associated sprockets and go with four wheel independent drive or buy the 2 cim gear case add on and use 1 56 mm gear head. I have reservations about putting 2 cims into 1 56mm gear head. Maybe others will have a more analytical comment on the input handling of the banes bot gear heads. Then there is the output shaft loading issue that Banes bots warns about and the additional bearing plate they sell because of it. Then again we could just use the 2005 KOP gear boxes. They're in pristine condition and have proved to be robust.
The Andy Mark KOP wheels have much softer rubber. The Skyway wheels last year wore down allot. I'm afraid the softer compound may be a wear problem. I think we may put disposable rubbers on the wheels. Also I think the Skyway wheel profile was a positive when driving on carpet.
I can see the BB gear heads being a positive for our arm drive.
The encoders available from BB are a definite step forward.
Over all with less then 24 hour I have to say the kit is 2 steps forward and one back. Our team is going to need some additional funds to make this work this year. Last year we got away real cheap.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

I like this year's kit box- mainly the new radios and the vacuum engine excite me.

This box also provided me with my third legal license for LabView

Re: 2007 Kit
 

Maybe i'm wrong, but doesn't AndyMark sell some kind of variant that is similar to the KOP Transmissions that we used to receive? As seen here - http://www.andymark.biz/am-0011.html

Re: 2007 Kit
 

Anyone notice the lack of cylinders in the kit? For that matter, <R105> mentions a "Pneumatic Components Order form", but I haven't found that yet either. Anyone know if these are part of the SMC bag or what is supposed to be in that bag? No mention in the KOP Checklist.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

Dear Bosch Van Door Motor,
Everyone here at FIRST really misses you. You were the best high torque output that we knew, always there cranking away. I will never forget the day when you helped us win that regional... *sniff* I know we had our differences, like that fact that our machining was in inches and you were all metric, but we never let that get in the way of building the best robots ever. Sorry if I get a little emotional, but I hate saying goodbye to a friends. I will miss you a lot for this year's game!!!

Gabe

P.S. Tell me if you are planning on coming back next year!

Re: 2007 Kit
 

I just want to verify that, as per the KoP checklist on the FIRST site, we're only supposed to have one Fisher Price motor and gearbox. We received two in our kit.

Did anyone else get two?

Re: 2007 Kit
 

We got two, I was just about to post the same question.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

We got 2 as well.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

We recieved two as well.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

We got 2 fischer prices also.
I also really like the AM wheels. Our initial tests show they have a really good coeffcient of friction. They also seem extremely easy to add bearings and a sprocket to.
Anyone have and information about how good the traction is after the treads have been worn in? Is it better, worse, or the same as when they're fresh and new.
Thanks for the great wheels.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

We got two.

I love the new BaneBot stuff.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

We received two FP as well.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

This whole battery thing has always been to create business for FIRST battery suppliers. These batteries are interchangable when used to start the engines in motorcycles, or whatever their normal use is, and would also be essentially interchangable for our use. Exide got a few years of "guaranteed" business, and now someone else will get at least one year of guaranteed business.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

I can't comment about every year, but at least once I know that FIRST kit-of-parts batteries were definitely not selected to create business for the battery supplier.

In 1997 (for Toroid Terror) I was the battery "supplier". The batteries that year were used in a 12V cordless Skil-Bosch drill made by another division of the company I work for. My management OK'd buying a few hundred extra units to donate to FIRST. Things were simpler then -- only about 150 kits, if I recall correctly, with two batteries per kit and about 200 spares. We also supplied a similar quantity of the battery chargers, drill motors, gearboxes, and drill housings from the same product.

Just look at this awesome 2007 kit of parts! FIRST has come a long way!

Re: 2007 Kit
 

I remember the cordless drill batteries, and yes, what we know have to work with is much better. The drill batteries, as I remember, had 10 sub-C nicad cells each and probably had a capacity of not much more than one amp-hour. Using two of these batteries, we still had, at best, maybe 20% of the battery capacitiy we have with the current gel batteries. Another area where we are much better off is the speed controls. The Tekin R/C car contollers that we used through 1998, while very good for their intended application, were seriously overstressed when used for drill motors at 12 volts.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

Sorry Kit, but you are flat out wrong. The requirement to use the new battery supplied in the Kit Of Parts (and for that matter, any other component from the KOP) has absolutely NOTHING to do with an effort to create business for a specific supplier. It has everything to do with guaranteeing that the field is as fair as possible to all teams.

The fact that the MK-12 batteries and the previously available Exide batteries can both turn over a motorcycle engine is interesting, but totally irrelevant. It takes about 90 seconds of research to determine that the batteries are NOT the same. Their characteristics, charge rates, and - most importantly - discharge rates are different. And those differences have significant implications for robot performance in a competition application such as FIRST. To ensure that the performance of the power system used in the competition is predictable and consistent for all teams, FIRST has to require that every team use the same make and model of battery.

So next time, before anyone accuses FIRST of being in the pocket of the sponsoring corporations, they might spend a minute and a half to actually apply some of that critical analytical ability that we are supposed to be demonstrating as educated engineers, and think objectively about the rationale that might be used for the various decisions that are made regarding the competition, Kit Of Parts, and robot requirements. You might find that it is not really due to some nefarious financial plot on the part of the people that are supporting this program, but that there is actually an understandable, logical reason that is obvious once you think about it.

-dave

Re: 2007 Kit
 

Sorry about my accusations, Dave. I agree that FIRST is very conscientious in its decisions about robot specs and all other aspects of the competition design. I still feel that Exide, MK-12, Yuasa, or any other "name brand" battery of the type we use would perform comparably for our purposes. The most likely exception would be weight. There might be slight variations of internal resistance in the batteries, but that would be the case between different samples of the same brand. Given that we could get two or three "good" matches from a fully charged battery if we wanted to chance it, I think it's safe to assume that any brand of non-defective battery of the style we use would perform well for one match.

Again, I apologize to anyone I may have offended and promise not to do it again.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

I don't think the question is being allowed to use other brand batteries, but more of 'why did FIRST change it?' People feel the change was done to drive business to a sponsor. Regardless of that or whatever happened, is there really a big enough performance increase in the new batteries to warrant the switch? Well, FIRST certainly thinks so.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

Or, just maybe, it was not FIRST's decision. Remember, there are at least two parties involved in the supplier-consumer relationship. Everyone seems to be making assumptions attributing questionable motives to FIRST for the causes behind this change. Have you considered the possibility that the supplier may have chosen to change the terms of their deal with FIRST? Perhaps FIRST, faced with the choice of continuing with an existing supplier that was going to charge significantly more money for the batteries which would have to be passed on to the teams, or going with a new supplier that provided batteries with different characteristics but similar or lower pricing, chose to look for the deal with the best financial benefit to the teams?

If there are people that feel the change was done to drive business to a sponsor, they need to think things through again. For almost all of these questions there are multiple possible answers and reasons that a supplier decision might be made. And most of those answers do not require that FIRST be populated with self-interested financial vultures eager to screw us, as some are apparently assuming.

-dave

Re: 2007 Kit
 

Exide stopped donating batteries.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

Dave and GNH200 (whoever that is),

But why the rule exluding the purchase of the Exide (or Yuasa battery)? You can say fairness, but that is a pretty weak argument since everyone can purchase those batteries.

Please do not even touch the "small teams can't afford it". They can afford to travel to a regional, they can afford the $7,000 entry fee. The extra $50 to buy two batteries is noise.

-PAul

Re: 2007 Kit
 

I found that suction cup pretty powerful, but it requires just a little pressure to get its seal started, and you have to get it on a smooth surface (not the edge of the tube). It will certainly lift the tube well and even survive some quick jolts, but notice you can't use it to rotate the tube vertically. So unless I'm missing something you can't tip a tube up from the ground using the suction cup :(

If only someone could make a mechanism that mimics that motion people make with their foot to tip the ringers vertically... :cool:

Re: 2007 Kit
 

Imagine that we were allowed to use any lead-acid battery of the "size group" that we are now using and FIRST would simply find the cheapest place to buy two per kit, and include them in the kit. IMHO, this is what would probably happen.

A few teams would buy some batteries from various manufacturers including Exide, Yuasa, Varta, MK-12, or whoever else they could find, and do performance tests on them. They might, for example, measure voltage after 5 seconds into a 0.1 ohm load, voltage after 2 minutes into a 0.5 ohm load, or other electrical tests. They would probably find that they'd need several samples of each battery to come up with statistically significant results, and even then, results might be inconclusive. Still, a few teams with the resources might do it. Then, being gracious professionals that FIRSTers are, they would publish the results of their tests in the Chief Delphi White Pages. They would also list the weights of the batteries, for those who care.

Then armed with these test results provided by gracious professionals from other teams, most teams would still buy their extra batteries for practice and competition from whatever source they could find that was cheapest and/or most convenient. If, and it's a big "if" it turned out that one brand of battery was significantly better for "keeping the voltage up" when you have four stalled CIM motors, the more serious teams would go for the better batteries.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

So does it state some where that if we buy the breaker panel that we can't use it?

I found rules in which would support using it, but also found rules that would make it not usable, and by the flowchaert it could be used.

Of course going by the rule that you have to "follow the wiring diagram" then we couldn't use it. However last year it was like this also and they changed and said we could which was nice.

It provides for a lot more clean wiring and does not have as much weight.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

[quote=Paul Copioli;

Please do not even touch the "small teams can't afford it". They can afford to travel to a regional, they can afford the $7,000 entry fee. The extra $50 to buy two batteries is noise.

-PAul[/QUOTE]

>>off topic<<<Maybe. Maybe not. Registration remained at $6,000 this year for the first regional. Just a gentle reminder that there are many teams with a budget in the $8,000-9,000 range. They are dealing with the cards they were dealt. "Travel to the regional" involves being driven in private car/or a long public bus ride. No hotels. Bring your own bag lunch.

I'll be interested to see the creative recycling and reuse options developed by the teams that have the potential to turn into much bigger community service projects.

Re: 2007 Kit - Camera
 

Since the camera has changed for this year, does that imply we cannot use last year's camera as a back up??

BC

Re: 2007 Kit - Camera
 

The camera model has not changed, and if I'm wrong and it has, it's still something you can buy. Wouldn't that qualify as a COTs part?

The whole dual-tracking or more thing is software on the RC, as the Cam's firmware hasn't been updated as far as I know.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

That's a double edged sword you're swingin' there. The existing teams can also afford to buy a couple new MK batteries, etc.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

I don't see any rule that prohibits anyone from purchasing Exide, or Yuasa, or any other battery. FIRST has said nothing that would prevent you from buying all of them that you want.

The only thing that they have said is that for the official competitions, you can only USE the approved make and model of battery that is supplied in the Kit Of Parts. This is precisely analogous to what they specify for the motors used in the competition - you can use only the approved make and model of motor, in the quantities specified, on your robot during the competitions. You can purchase all you want for development and as spares. You can do anything you want for prototyping. But you can't use any alternate motors on the robot during competition. If the motor in this year's kit is different than the motor in last year's kit, you can't use last year's motor. The batteries are being handled in exactly the same way.

And for those that are whining "but I bought a whole bunch of extra batteries last year and want to use them again" I will just point out once again that FIRST and many others have repeatedly cautioned against purchasing anything in advance of the kickoff in anticipation of using it on the 2007 robots. Messages like the one below have been repeated here and elsewhere many, many times. If you chose to ignore that advice, you do so at your own peril.
-dave

Re: 2007 Kit
 

I don't know all the technical specifications of these batteries but I'm betting that the collective brainpower of FIRST mentors on this forum will come to logical conclusions regarding their compatability. For us it breaks down like this. A team gets two batteries in the kit and maybe buys two more during the build so they have enough to make it safely through a day of competitions. After three or four years they have built up an inventory of 12 - 16 batteries, maybe a few less if they just accept the two batteries in the kit each year. Hypothetically, let us say the team develops a sophisticated charging station that can accomodate maybe 15 batteries. The team is by no means in financial peril but is stretching it's budget to impact as many kids as they can. They are working on the assumption that FIRST will use the same batteries and they won't need to make a significant investment in new batteries but will be able to recondition and reuse old batteries. Maybe they will even provide them for use to rookie teams at the comps who may have thought that two batteries was enough. (I'm no engineer but my guess is it is better to have more than two batteries at a competition.) Now with the current state of affairs the team is faced with the "do we just use the two batteries we got in the kit and waste the rest of the room in the shiny new charging rack or do we buy a batch of the new batteries and run the risk that FIRST will change again next year?" question.

My guess is the bottom line in all of this is that some teams (ours included) have invested in what we thought would be a consistent component from year to year and now we're faced with the dilemma of "to replace or not to replace". Dave - I understand your comments regarding "don't assume that kit parts won't change" but it would be nice to have some input. Perhaps FIRST could have alerted teams to an impending change and allowed veteran teams to "opt out" of getting new batteries so a smaller donation of them could go towards the rookie and newer teams. I can speak for our team that it is nice to get fresh batteries each year but we've got enough of them from previous years that we could do without if it meant a newer/rookie team got them as long as the battery remained consistent.

For us it boils down to the question of "can we afford to replace our old batteries?" and "do we want to run the risk of getting burned again?" My guess is our fancy new, high-tech, one-of-a-kind, state-of-the-art charging station will be underutilized this year. Anyone want to rent space in it? :)

I want to believe that FIRST isn't bowing down to suppliers and I'll take Dave's word for it but it would have been nice to have had a heads up.

Sean

Re: 2007 Kit
 

I was wondering about this as well. The checklist says 1, but both 494 & 70 got 2 Fisher-Prices. I think the checklist is wrong, considering that we've gotten two in the past and it seems every team got two.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

ummm....i was wondering if anyone has been able to find somewhere to purchase the 15 tooth output sprockets...we need some more...and the places we normally order them from are not cooperating

Re: 2007 Kit
 

There are teams, like ours, who have a very small budget. We paid $6000 for entry and have some money for parts but not alow. We go to a local regional that we plan to drive an hour to each day to save money. So yes, there are teams who dont have alot of money.

If any veteran team has old Exide batteries we will surely take them off your hands.

-chris

Re: 2007 Kit
 

I am afraid that I have to agree with Dave on the battery issue. Batteries are a vital part of the robot. The ability to even the field is really important in some areas. This is no different than changing the Fisher Price motors or limiting the pneumatics. I know that our team only counts on batteries for 2 years and then they go to practice only status.

Teams have in the past planned on using the drill motors and they disappeared. the fact is we lost a sponsor or costs went too high. I remember reading of people complaining the the cost of regionals was too high yet when FIRST tries to be careful, everyone is complaining. What is it that we are asking for?

Re: 2007 Kit
 

Sorry to butt in (though, then again, this is the general kit thread...), but has anyone figured out that indicator lamp? The wiring diagram's up, but still no visible sign of purpose.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

Hey, our team was wondering if there were any specifics as to how the battery is supposed to be placed. E.G. whether or not it is allowed to be positioned sideways or not.

Re: 2007 Kit
 

Unless guidelines have changed, which is unlikely, the battery can be placed on its side or edge in the robot, but should be charged in the upright position.