Chief Delphi - The Canary Letter

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The Canary Letter

So what do you guys think about the yellow card/ red card rule and having to carry the stigma of the yellow card for the rest of the tournament?

Re: The Canary Letter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koko Ed (Post 548979)

So what do you guys think about the yellow card/ red card rule and having to carry the stigma of the yellow card for the rest of the tournament?

I think this is an awesome addition! I'm glad they decided to implement it at all events.

(We should all thank Andy Baker for starting this a few years back at the IRI)

Re: The Canary Letter

I think it's a good addition, it will be interesting to see how effective it's use is in competition. Hopefully this'll prevent aggressive teams from using potentially dangerous tactics.

Re: The Canary Letter

I'm not a big fan, because it's a little vague. I mean, it's then up to the judge if a team is being too rough or not, which is much more subjective than before. Not that I'm saying my team is upset that we can't push people around like crazy. I just think it's less defined than before and open to interpretation.

Re: The Canary Letter

Yes, It makes it so that one judge's decision is applied to an entire regional, and so that if a team makes one mistake in the beginning of a regional... They are penalized for the rest of it.

Re: The Canary Letter

Technically it's not a penalty, rather, just a warning to watch for rough behavior. I find it hard that such behavior could occur accidentally. Keep an eye on your robot and if you see a referee making the pinning hand signals (it's hard to miss) back off.

Re: The Canary Letter

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCA Fan (Post 549075)

pinning isn't the only cause for a yellow card. also it isn't always cut and dry, things like ramming are largely a matter of interpretation. This rule would have worked better last year with the cut and dry definitions of the bumper zone and the lack of need for teams to have anything extending past the bumpers. this year however, the arms and manipluators will most likely reach well beyond the bumper zone.

Re: The Canary Letter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cody C (Post 549059)

Yes, It makes it so that one judge's decision is applied to an entire regional, and so that if a team makes one mistake in the beginning of a regional... They are penalized for the rest of it.

It's not just "a judge", it's the head ref.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9.6.3 <T06>

The Head Referee may assign a YELLOW CARD as a warning of egregious ROBOT or team member behavior. This will occur at the completion of a match, before the field is reset, and will be indicated by the Head Referee standing in front of the team’s PLAYER STATION and holding a yellow card in the air. In the first match that a team receives a YELLOW CARD, it acts as a warning.

On a side note, does anyone find the method of telling a team they have recieved a yellow card rather comical?:rolleyes:

Re: The Canary Letter

Quote:

Originally Posted by karinka13 (Post 549055)

First, the applicable manual:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Section 9.6.3

<T06> The Head Referee may assign a YELLOW CARD as a warning of egregious ROBOT or
team member behavior. This will occur at the completion of a match, before the field is
reset, and will be indicated by the Head Referee standing in front of the team’s PLAYER
STATION and holding a yellow card in the air. In the first match that a team receives a
YELLOW CARD, it acts as a warning.
<T07> After a team receives a YELLOW CARD, a yellow flag will be placed on their ROBOT at
the beginning of all subsequent matches as a reminder to the team, the referees and the
audience that they have a YELLOW CARD.
<T08> A team will be issued a RED CARD (disqualification) in any subsequent match that they
receive an additional YELLOW CARD. This will occur at the completion of a match,
before the field is reset, and will be indicated by the Head Referee standing in front of the
team’s PLAYER STATION and holding a yellow card and red card in the air
simultaneously. The team will still carry their YELLOW CARD into subsequent matches.
<T09> YELLOW CARDS do not carry forward between qualification matches and elimination
matches. All teams move into the elimination matches with a clean slate.
<T10> If a team is disqualified during a match for a reason other than receiving an additional
YELLOW CARD, they will receive a RED CARD. This will occur at the completion of a
match, before the field is reset, and will be indicated by the Head Referee standing in
front of the team’s PLAYER STATION and hold a red card in the air.
<T11> During the qualification matches, a team that receives a RED CARD will receive zero
ranking points and zero qualification points. The rest of the team’s in their ALLIANCE will
still receive the earned qualification points and ranking points.
<T12> During the elimination matches, a team receiving a RED CARD will cause the
disqualification of their entire ALLIANCE for that match.

After reading the manual, I don't think it's any more subjective than the rules of recent years. If you misbehave while driving, you will get a yellow card. Do it again (or tremendously over the top), you get disqualified. This just simplifies the warning process, and also signals that yes, the refs DID see that. It also signals to me that the team does or did drive rough, which is something I'd want to know when making my pick list.

Re: The Canary Letter

I think this is great so that if you know that you have little to no traction, you can see who was rough at a time before. This way you know that they have been rough and you can stay away from them.

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It'll be nice to know who has penalties.

But, can you only get Red Card by getting a Yellow card first? If a team is disqualified WITHOUT getting Yellow first, will they have a yellow next match?

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Personally I'm not sure I care for it, though I have mixed feelings. Sure, it's cool theatrics, but as in soccer it potentially penalizes the teams for separate and unrelated infractions rather than an MO of a certain act (the deterrence of which I'm sure is a major goal of the system). Unlike in soccer, yellow cards are persistent past one game, so two strikes and you're out, so to speak. I fear this has the potential to burn (for example) rookie teams that make two honest mistakes. I also noticed that the yellow flag rules for <T07> and <T09> represent a potentially strong and demoralizing positive punishment/negative reinforcement system that I haven't really seen in FIRST before, although that could be a helpful deterrent I suppose; still, the first thing that came to mind when I saw it introduced today was that it was like a team dunce cap. It's a little strange. Finally and perhaps most importantly, the rules are problematically vague about what actions, and to what degree they are carried out, warrant a card.

The upside of course (and I'm sure this is a main motivation behind instituting the system) is that there is much more transparency and legitimacy behind referees' warnings. It also encourages them to make warnings, and allows for them to promulgate and record them rather than allow teams to claim ignorance to warnings/suggestions/whatever they interpreted them to be (as many of us have seen in the past). I think this element is very good for the game, but whether the aforementioned potential downsides outweigh it we will only be able to tell after a couple of regionals. It all depends on implementation, and reminds us how important and tough officiating can be.

Re: The Canary Letter

I'm all for it, last year we tipped over at one point and another team [who we eventualy grew to love] rather blatantly rammed our CMU camera and shooter mechanism... repeatedly. The new rule should keep anything unsportsmanlike from happening.

Re: The Canary Letter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cody C (Post 549059)

Yes, It makes it so that one judge's decision is applied to an entire regional, and so that if a team makes one mistake in the beginning of a regional... They are penalized for the rest of it.

No, if they make one mistake in the beginning they are not penalized. If they make one mistake at the beginning, then another mistake later you are. Plus they are wiped clean before the elimination matches:

Quote:

<T09> YELLOW CARDS do not carry forward between qualification matches and elimination matches. All teams move into the elimination matches with a clean slate.

Re: The Canary Letter

I don't like it , it makes it too easy for students to have GP. they should have too decide if there actions on the field are first like
they need to learn to live like there grandmother is watching