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-   -   The Canary Letter (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51055)

Koko Ed 06-01-2007 14:51
The Canary Letter
 
So what do you guys think about the yellow card/ red card rule and having to carry the stigma of the yellow card for the rest of the tournament?

David Kelly 06-01-2007 15:30
Re: The Canary Letter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koko Ed (Post 548979)
So what do you guys think about the yellow card/ red card rule and having to carry the stigma of the yellow card for the rest of the tournament?

I think this is an awesome addition! I'm glad they decided to implement it at all events.

(We should all thank Andy Baker for starting this a few years back at the IRI)

DCA Fan 06-01-2007 16:07
Re: The Canary Letter
 
I think it's a good addition, it will be interesting to see how effective it's use is in competition. Hopefully this'll prevent aggressive teams from using potentially dangerous tactics.

karinka13 06-01-2007 16:10
Re: The Canary Letter
 
I'm not a big fan, because it's a little vague. I mean, it's then up to the judge if a team is being too rough or not, which is much more subjective than before. Not that I'm saying my team is upset that we can't push people around like crazy. I just think it's less defined than before and open to interpretation.

Cody Carey 06-01-2007 16:13
Re: The Canary Letter
 
Yes, It makes it so that one judge's decision is applied to an entire regional, and so that if a team makes one mistake in the beginning of a regional... They are penalized for the rest of it.

DCA Fan 06-01-2007 16:23
Re: The Canary Letter
 
Technically it's not a penalty, rather, just a warning to watch for rough behavior. I find it hard that such behavior could occur accidentally. Keep an eye on your robot and if you see a referee making the pinning hand signals (it's hard to miss) back off.

JamesBrown 06-01-2007 16:27
Re: The Canary Letter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCA Fan (Post 549075)
Technically it's not a penalty, rather, just a warning to watch for rough behavior. I find it hard that such behavior could occur accidentally. Keep an eye on your robot and if you see a referee making the pinning hand signals (it's hard to miss) back off.
pinning isn't the only cause for a yellow card. also it isn't always cut and dry, things like ramming are largely a matter of interpretation. This rule would have worked better last year with the cut and dry definitions of the bumper zone and the lack of need for teams to have anything extending past the bumpers. this year however, the arms and manipluators will most likely reach well beyond the bumper zone.

Ian Curtis 06-01-2007 16:28
Re: The Canary Letter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cody C (Post 549059)
Yes, It makes it so that one judge's decision is applied to an entire regional, and so that if a team makes one mistake in the beginning of a regional... They are penalized for the rest of it.
It's not just "a judge", it's the head ref.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 9.6.3 <T06>
The Head Referee may assign a YELLOW CARD as a warning of egregious ROBOT or team member behavior. This will occur at the completion of a match, before the field is reset, and will be indicated by the Head Referee standing in front of the team’s PLAYER STATION and holding a yellow card in the air. In the first match that a team receives a YELLOW CARD, it acts as a warning.
On a side note, does anyone find the method of telling a team they have recieved a yellow card rather comical?:rolleyes:

Billfred 06-01-2007 16:31
Re: The Canary Letter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by karinka13 (Post 549055)
I'm not a big fan, because it's a little vague. I mean, it's then up to the judge if a team is being too rough or not, which is much more subjective than before. Not that I'm saying my team is upset that we can't push people around like crazy. I just think it's less defined than before and open to interpretation.
First, the applicable manual:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Section 9.6.3
<T06> The Head Referee may assign a YELLOW CARD as a warning of egregious ROBOT or
team member behavior. This will occur at the completion of a match, before the field is
reset, and will be indicated by the Head Referee standing in front of the team’s PLAYER
STATION and holding a yellow card in the air. In the first match that a team receives a
YELLOW CARD, it acts as a warning.
<T07> After a team receives a YELLOW CARD, a yellow flag will be placed on their ROBOT at
the beginning of all subsequent matches as a reminder to the team, the referees and the
audience that they have a YELLOW CARD.
<T08> A team will be issued a RED CARD (disqualification) in any subsequent match that they
receive an additional YELLOW CARD. This will occur at the completion of a match,
before the field is reset, and will be indicated by the Head Referee standing in front of the
team’s PLAYER STATION and holding a yellow card and red card in the air
simultaneously. The team will still carry their YELLOW CARD into subsequent matches.
<T09> YELLOW CARDS do not carry forward between qualification matches and elimination
matches. All teams move into the elimination matches with a clean slate.
<T10> If a team is disqualified during a match for a reason other than receiving an additional
YELLOW CARD, they will receive a RED CARD. This will occur at the completion of a
match, before the field is reset, and will be indicated by the Head Referee standing in
front of the team’s PLAYER STATION and hold a red card in the air.
<T11> During the qualification matches, a team that receives a RED CARD will receive zero
ranking points and zero qualification points. The rest of the team’s in their ALLIANCE will
still receive the earned qualification points and ranking points.
<T12> During the elimination matches, a team receiving a RED CARD will cause the
disqualification of their entire ALLIANCE for that match.
After reading the manual, I don't think it's any more subjective than the rules of recent years. If you misbehave while driving, you will get a yellow card. Do it again (or tremendously over the top), you get disqualified. This just simplifies the warning process, and also signals that yes, the refs DID see that. It also signals to me that the team does or did drive rough, which is something I'd want to know when making my pick list.

Schnabel 06-01-2007 16:42
Re: The Canary Letter
 
I think this is great so that if you know that you have little to no traction, you can see who was rough at a time before. This way you know that they have been rough and you can stay away from them.

Zero-Bee 06-01-2007 16:45
Re: The Canary Letter
 
It'll be nice to know who has penalties.

But, can you only get Red Card by getting a Yellow card first? If a team is disqualified WITHOUT getting Yellow first, will they have a yellow next match?

jonathan lall 06-01-2007 19:05
Re: The Canary Letter
 
Personally I'm not sure I care for it, though I have mixed feelings. Sure, it's cool theatrics, but as in soccer it potentially penalizes the teams for separate and unrelated infractions rather than an MO of a certain act (the deterrence of which I'm sure is a major goal of the system). Unlike in soccer, yellow cards are persistent past one game, so two strikes and you're out, so to speak. I fear this has the potential to burn (for example) rookie teams that make two honest mistakes. I also noticed that the yellow flag rules for <T07> and <T09> represent a potentially strong and demoralizing positive punishment/negative reinforcement system that I haven't really seen in FIRST before, although that could be a helpful deterrent I suppose; still, the first thing that came to mind when I saw it introduced today was that it was like a team dunce cap. It's a little strange. Finally and perhaps most importantly, the rules are problematically vague about what actions, and to what degree they are carried out, warrant a card.

The upside of course (and I'm sure this is a main motivation behind instituting the system) is that there is much more transparency and legitimacy behind referees' warnings. It also encourages them to make warnings, and allows for them to promulgate and record them rather than allow teams to claim ignorance to warnings/suggestions/whatever they interpreted them to be (as many of us have seen in the past). I think this element is very good for the game, but whether the aforementioned potential downsides outweigh it we will only be able to tell after a couple of regionals. It all depends on implementation, and reminds us how important and tough officiating can be.

Rick-906 06-01-2007 19:20
Re: The Canary Letter
 
I'm all for it, last year we tipped over at one point and another team [who we eventualy grew to love] rather blatantly rammed our CMU camera and shooter mechanism... repeatedly. The new rule should keep anything unsportsmanlike from happening.

Lil' Lavery 06-01-2007 20:52
Re: The Canary Letter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cody C (Post 549059)
Yes, It makes it so that one judge's decision is applied to an entire regional, and so that if a team makes one mistake in the beginning of a regional... They are penalized for the rest of it.
No, if they make one mistake in the beginning they are not penalized. If they make one mistake at the beginning, then another mistake later you are. Plus they are wiped clean before the elimination matches:
Quote:
<T09> YELLOW CARDS do not carry forward between qualification matches and elimination matches. All teams move into the elimination matches with a clean slate.

colin340 06-01-2007 21:04
Re: The Canary Letter
 
I don't like it , it makes it too easy for students to have GP. they should have too decide if there actions on the field are first like
they need to learn to live like there grandmother is watching

Wetzel 06-01-2007 21:32
The System Extended
 
I like the addition of the card system to FIRST. Something else you may not have considered yet, while the referees are the ones who give you a yellow card, the judges can and will see them as you continue through the competition.

Just some more food for thought.

Wetzel

Swan217 06-01-2007 22:00
Re: The Canary Letter
 
To clear up a few questions above:

Quote:
Originally Posted by <T10>
If a team is disqualified during a match for a reason other than receiving an additional
YELLOW CARD, they will receive a RED CARD. This will occur at the completion of a
match, before the field is reset, and will be indicated by the Head Referee standing in
front of the team’s PLAYER STATION and hold a red card in the air.
Yes, Virginia, you can still be DQed (with a Red Card) without being Yellow first. Any rule which may be punished by DQ is an automatic Red Card (G12, G20 intent, G35 intent, G40 intent, G50)

This isn't changing the rules, really, but just setting down a solid enforcement technique. In previous years, a team could be warned against aggressive behavior multiple times because they were "just under" DQ-grade behavior. This is a "red flag" (or yellow, rather) to the refs to keep their eyes out for bad behavior from teams that are toeing the line of G.P. driving.

Adare180 06-01-2007 22:06
Re: The Canary Letter
 
my first reaction when i heard about the yellowcard was "a canary letter." i think the flag is a great idea to keep game play fair. as it was posted earlier, who wants to bear the flag when judges in the pits and watching the field are being reminded of their team's previous fault? it's like getting a yellow card playing soccer. i believe it is a good addition to the first competition.:)

hallk 06-01-2007 22:08
Re: The Canary Letter
 
I like it because its a good warning but I don't really like how the flag stays with you for the remainder. I understand that the system is in place to reduce over-agressiveness/ non-gp behavior but I hope that this doesn't lead to something down the road where basically no robot-robot defensive contact will be involved.

KTorak 06-01-2007 23:07
Re: The Canary Letter
 
I'm kinda glad to see a rule about this for the 2007 Season. In previous years, our robot has been damaged by robots who have "ram until it breaks" defense plan. With over 50 teams in a regional, a ref cannot remember which team did what. Therefore, the flag will serve as a reminder to the refs to keep an eye on that robot. Seeing the flag will also make alliance members talk about not being overly defensive, as well as remind the team to take it easy.

However, do I agree with Yellow Card - Warning, Red Card - DQ? Not really, I'd like to see you get a yellow card/flag and a warning. Then red card/flag and penalty. And any further action would be a team DQ. But that's just me...

Just my $0.02.

Ericgehrken 06-01-2007 23:18
Re: The Canary Letter
 
I think it's a great way to police the intense competitions and keep track of it. The yellow cards are a way to keep teams controlled and not overly violent. This year's game probably will not have as violent of a defense as years past because of this new rule. Playing violently this year will be like driving double the speed limit past a cop and in years past it was like there were no cops even near the road.

CraigHickman 07-01-2007 00:08
Re: The Canary Letter
 
I really approve of this new rule, as last year we had multiple welds shattered (not broken, they shattered) after we were tipped. This may sound like not an issue, but the breaking came AFTER tipping, when another team decided to repeatedly ram us. Having a $200 weldong job shattered right at the beginning of the finals isn't the best way to start a day. The best part about it was the fact that the refs did nothing. So this new rule makes me very happy.

Courtneyb1023 30-01-2007 09:39
Re: The Canary Letter
 
I agree. I think this rule dissuades a really rough defence and encourages the game to be played the way that it was designed to be played. Its just like in other games. I wouldn't necessarily want to play "go fish" with someone who was intent on hurting me in order to win. That might be a terrible example, but it kinda makes sense.

Court

akshar 30-01-2007 09:57
Re: The Canary Letter
 
with this rule, defense wont be played as well, all drive teams will have that fear of receiving a yellow card, and it will be greater when they are in danger of getting the red.

NoSkaOnTheRadio 30-01-2007 10:53
Re: The Canary Letter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iCurtis (Post 549089)
On a side note, does anyone find the method of telling a team they have recieved a yellow card rather comical?:rolleyes:
I find it very comical, but millions of soccer fans can't all be wrong, can they :D ?

my only thoughts on this are that I might feel a little better about this rule if the card only carried over for a set number (for example, 4, matches), to keep teams from playing half-heartedly out fo fear of a DQ.

haroony341 30-01-2007 11:27
Re: The Canary Letter
 
what would be considered good defense. how far can you go with out getting a card?

Al Skierkiewicz 30-01-2007 11:35
Re: The Canary Letter
 
I like the abillity to shock a team into compliance with the card, but...
Something deep down inside is nagging me about carrying this 'mark' the whole weekend. Any parallels here to the "scarlet Letter"?

Donut 30-01-2007 13:48
Re: The Canary Letter
 
What will be interesting is how much the yellow card is used. Depending on the interpertation of rough play, there could potentially be a Regional with a number of robots all with yellow cards. Somehow I think the value of the yellow card will be diminished if 10 out of 30 teams at a regional have one.

nparikh 30-01-2007 16:53
Re: The Canary Letter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz (Post 568137)
I like the abillity to shock a team into compliance with the card, but...
Something deep down inside is nagging me about carrying this 'mark' the whole weekend. Any parallels here to the "scarlet Letter"?
I totally agree with you. Though it may seem like a great idea at first glance, it seems restricting marking someone with this 'letter'/'flag' or whatever you may.

Besides, why discourage teams from playing a good defense--yes, people make accidents; but in saying that they basically get one shot and then they're disqualified--that sounds a bit over the edge to me. People make accidents, and I don't think they shouldn't be penalized that much for such things.

Not to mention that I have qualms with such a subjective penalty system.

Swan217 31-01-2007 10:44
Re: The Canary Letter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nparikh (Post 568318)
I totally agree with you. Though it may seem like a great idea at first glance, it seems restricting marking someone with this 'letter'/'flag' or whatever you may.

Besides, why discourage teams from playing a good defense--yes, people make accidents; but in saying that they basically get one shot and then they're disqualified--that sounds a bit over the edge to me. People make accidents, and I don't think they shouldn't be penalized that much for such things.

Not to mention that I have qualms with such a subjective penalty system.
It's ALWAYS a subjective penalty system! Referees are human, and therefore make subjective decisions. As it has always been, it is up to the referees' discretion as to what counts as a penalty and what doesn't.

The rules have always been there - 10 point penalties, warning, then disqualification. Referees have always handed out warnings to teams to prevent poor strategies. Until now only the team that received the warning, the referee that gave the warning, and the head ref were the only ones to know about them. All this new system is doing is making the warnings more visible to the crowd and the other referees.

This yellow card system is NOT making any new rules. If you haven't received warnings before for an action, you probably won't receive a yellow card now. This will only prevent teams from being warned multiple times without something being done to stop the aggressive behavior. Teams have always had 2 strikes, but it hasn't always been enforced due to lack of communication.

Once again, the rules aren't changing, only the enforcement (and visibility) of them is.

P.S. - Good defense has always been allowed. Agressive defense never has (though some teams get away with it when refs are looking the other way).


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