Contact with the Rack
 

Question regarding rule specification

Would this rule out a airplane air refuel type system where we try to hold the spider so it doesnt shake so we can mount rings easier? It isnt exactly attaching, just holding it in place by putting a frame around the goal. What is your oppinion? Does it violate the rule?

-Martin Cacan

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

"grab" and "hold" are synonymous to me...

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

It seems to me like there is a difference since the words they use to describe illegal contact with structures are all active functions...whereas containing the goal is a passive opperation.

-Martin Cacan

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

Well, if you have something wrapping around it, and able to pick it up or opens and closes, i don't think that would be allowed, but if you an open sided stationary frame fit to the size of the tube and hold it in place, I wouldn't see anything wrong with it.

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

It would be like a funnel that would help us guide onto the goal. It wouldnt open or close or anything but it still is around the goal plate.

-Martin Cacan

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

You may align the leg with a funnel-type device. As long as you are not ATTACHED to the leg (ie, suction, magnet, etc) you are in the clear.

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

Is that a personal oppinion or a for sure.

just fyi to consider...since the rack is solid aluminum magnets are out of the question.

-Martin Cacan

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

If what you are using to stabilize your robot presses against the rack, you are fine. If what you are using to stabilize your robot connects the robot to the rack, it's no good.

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

Does anyone know if the rack rotates during the game? Can you bump it to make it spin around so that it is harder for the other team to score? Is the rack Bolted down right before the game play?

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

it is not able to spin during matches

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

No, the rack does not rotate during the game. You cannot move it with the robot.

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

is this personal opinion or have you found out that it is completely legal.

-Martin Cacan

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

I am having trouble finding the rule about this, can you point it out?

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

The rack does not spin as far as I know but does shake from side to side from contact if you watch the video with Dean and Woody.

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

This is not entirely true. The rack is chained to a fixed base located at the center of the field, but it is free to move within the limits of the chains. The only thing holding it in place is friction with the carpet. White it won't spin, a hard knock with the robot can cause it to shift or rotate slightly.

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

So as long as your robot isn't attached to the rack, you can move/shake it however you want to...

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

6-The arenda. page 5 or 8 on the rack. mid way

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

The platform is firmly attached, but the rack is only connected to the platform with loose chains, and can (and probably will) move.

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

According to <G07> the rack can be moved as in slide by the judges once both alliances have positioned their robots.The Rack can be slide inside of a 3ft radius of the middle of the field. this eliminates alot of dead reconing. it does swing as well.

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

this is true, but I don't see anything on it not moving during the match, if you look at <G07>
"Center RACK position - After all six ROBOTS are in their starting positions and theDRIVERS, COACHES and HUMAN PLAYERS are in the ALLIANCE ZONE, the RACK willbe moved (translated and/or rotated) to an arbitrary position so that the center of the RACKis within a 3 foot radius of the playing field center but the exact location and orientation ofthe RACK is unpredictable. After this point in time no ROBOT may be moved or repositioned until the match starts."-from manual

Is there more that I haven't read the entire thing yet, but nothing states, that I have read, about it being bolted down. If it moves at the beginning of the match i wouldn't think it would, because then you would have holes in the field.

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

well it you look at 6.2.2 it states that "a set of loose chains" is connected to a small platform at the center of the field, not saying anything about robots being able to rotate it during the match.

The platform being the thing the chain is attached to.

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

I think hole thing can be move after the start of the match but the chance of a robot being able to move the massive weight of the rack is not very likely. The one our teams assembled is very heavy and it's just wood and pvc pipes.

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

It's not illegal to move, barring your robot doesn't grab it. But if you look at the construction, the only thing holding it down is friction and those chains connected to the foundation.

And if it can be moved... It will be moved.

With violent impacts to the side or robots in pushing matches with some killer low torque, moving that Rack will probably happen quite a bit. Granted, it probably won't move more than a few inches at a time, but it'll add up.

-Chris

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

So the question is...

can a robot, intentionally or otherwise, move, or rotate the goal??? :confused:

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

We were thinking the same thing. Technically, if you have a bot (granted that it has enough torque, weight, and meets the specs) move it for the whole round, nobody would be able to score.

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

can you phisically rotate it?, not legaly, i got the legal part.

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

The way I read it is that the spiders and chains are meant to move/sway; so pushing them would not cause a disruption.

OTOH, the base of the rack will be (I'm guessing) Valcro-ed to the carpet; so, pushing hard enough to rotate, translate, or tip the whole thing would cause disruption, which would lead to a warning first, then disablement if they did it again.

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

I retract what I said a bit ago (deleted the post) - I think moving the chains while not trying to score will be frowned upon. But the chains will shake, rattle, and roll like crazy as multiple robots attempt to score tubes on the spiders. Contact with the spiders seems to be permitted during scoring attempts, as long as your robot is not actively attaching to/grabbing any part of the rack assembly.

The rack is heavy, but it is not secured rigidly down to any one location on the carpet, because refs must randomly slide and/or rotate the beast to reposition it anywhere within a 3' radius of the center of the field prior to the start of each match. However, I believe that moving the entire assembly intentionally once the match starts will be considered against the rules (in addition to being kinda pointless).

Defense is meant to be played directly against other robots, via the stated rules.

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

Maybe I'm just crazy, but I thought the rack would be on wheels...at least that's the way it looked in the pics. The manual does say that the center platform will be firmly attached to the ground, but it sounds to me like you could push the rack up to one foot in any direction as that would be 'reacting to game elements without damaging them', or even rotate the rack.

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

If the base is firmly attached to the ground, and the judges spin it before every match, dont you think the center part, with the spiders and such, are are able to be turned seperate from the base up to a foot or so in either direction?

Its hard to tell off of any pictures or drawings that I could find, so if anyone has an images that would help please send me the link.

Thanks :D

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

Let the truth be told.

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

The rack rotates around it's own axis but it is DIFFICULT to do so it's not aa BIG concern but it could still happen....and it shakes alot...

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

The estimated weight of the rack at kickoff was over 400 lbs!! It takes 3 full size adults to move it easily, 2 adults can move it, but it is not lite. It is constucted of schedule 40 aluminum pipe, and angle. I doubt any single robot would move it.

The "spiders" are hung by chains, and attached at the bottoms by rubber bungee cords. They move quite a bit. If you try to push on them the bottom ones move about 2 feet, the top ones about 1 foot

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

At Pittsburgh last year one robot was able to move the corner goal and part of the driver's station wall back about 3 inches. They were attached to the carpet with three, 1 ft x 3 in pieces of velcro. It was a full-speed hit during autonomous, so the force was probably about the same we'd see this year if a bot ran head-on into the Rack from their starting position.

In Pittsburgh, as I recall, the Head Ref ruled it unintentional and gave the team a warning that if it happened again (which it didn't) they'd be DQ'ed for damaging the field.

My point is that during aggressive play we are likely to see the Rack move a bit from "incidental robot contact". 130 lbs at 10+ fps is a lot of force.

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

So the spiders are able to move, but the question is... can the spiders be turned or rotated, rather than just sway back and forth a foot or two. :confused: :confused:

Re: Contact with the Rack
 

the spiders can sway left and right since they are hung by chains and held by bungie cords, up to a foot from the looks of it. but to fully "rotate" them you would have to move the entire rack left or right to move more than a foot either left or right, from the origional spot.