Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

Hey all,

So, last year, we all remember how crucial autonomous was to winning a match. The 10 pt bonus, but more importantly the chance to go on defense first, allowing you to gather more balls and have one big uninterrupted offensive period consisting of your offensive period and the free-for-all period.

So I was wondering, while at first glance, this year doesn't really give substantial reward to a succesful autonomous other than a guaranteed spider for the rest of the match, how do you think this will affect gameplay?

Will autonomous be as crucial as last year? Or not?

Let's hear your opinions!

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

Oh you can make Auto mode very important. Remember keepers are permenant rings, therefore your opponent can't negate them. You own that 2 points and possible place to combo off of.

Therefore the ability to score keepers in plain view of the other alliance will not only give you points, but will be one less place for your opponents to score easily from.

Auto-mode will make or break some matches, and might not matter to some matches.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

I think auto mode will be important for setting the tone for the match but after that the telecontrolled period is what the game is. The most you can score is eight points in auto mode and guarantee starting places. Teams must perfect their teleoperated section of the game much more than their autonomous mode.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

Based on my reading of the rules, I don't see where the autonomous mode is that critical. With only six weeks to build and perfect an operating 'bot based on the rules and KOP, I think that more time should be spent on the operator-controlled and Home Section portion of the game.

I may be wrong, but the maximum an alliance can score during autonomous is 8pts, and no other advantage (ie, go on defense first, or score additional pts).

With that in mind, why should a team spend a lot of time on that aspect of the game?

Windwarrior
Mentor-Team 1777

2006-Rookie Inspiration Award
2006-9th place Alliance Denver Regional (Rookie Year)
2007-Vex Connect Award
2007-4th Place Alliance, St. Louis Regional-VexRobotics

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

Okay, so 8 pts is the maximum score you would have after auto mode. BUT you now have 3 rings in a row that can't be spoiled. You are only 2 ringers away from 5 in a row, and the center isn't spoilable, so the other team needs to quickly block you from taking the two edges, otherwise you will quickly accumulate points and will take an irreversible lead.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

Autonomous is close to usless this year, IMO. It's only an automatic row of three if you are teamed with two bots that can set up rings right next to each other w/o conflicting with you or themselves, then it won't do much good.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

I wish they would have at least made keepers worth something like 10 points when you placed it on the rack. Outside of having a permanent space this isn't the apparent deathblow to your chances autonomous was last year where you could put a team down 40-0 and drain away their will to live.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

the advantages is that the row of three you create sets it up easily for a row of 4-5, and makes the row of 6+ more feasible

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

One other thing that comes into play with auto mode is that there are only 4 lights and 6 robots, so if one alinace decides to go for the lights that leaves one open and what if all 3 of the opposing robots are doing the same thing? there will be 6 robots going for 4 lights. There is going to be all types of contact but that is assuming that everyone uses the camera. :)

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

It does give a neat opportunity to program the robot to find the spider leg between two lights....which is probably why the camera software can recognize two targets....

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

I'm very disappointed by autonomous mode this year. It seems almost like an afterthought to the game and not really thought out or effective. I also think the lights are going to be exceptionally unhelpful given how unstable the scoring structure can be, but I expect some team will pull a miracle of programming wonder and prove me wrong, I look forward to that.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

I agree with others in saying that i am disappointed in the autonomous mode this year, while it does present an interesting challenge no doubt, it seems like it is of secondary importance and is not being looking upon like it has in the past. I was kind of hoping that this years game would have presented a more interesting challenge..

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

The advantage is essentially, you get an additional "spoiler". Because the tube cannot be nor spoiled, if each team on one alliance puts one on each level, the max points for the opposing alliance is greatly decreased ( as the max for each level drops to 128 from 256)

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

This year's reminds me of a better Triple Play auto mode

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

This year's autonomous will not be AS important as Aim High's (where the winners of autonomous won a vast majority of matches), but it will be far more important than in Triple Play or FIRST Frenzy. Depending on how the game plays it could be minimally the value of Stack Attack, but it could range to have great importance.
Keep in mind, it is possible to negate your opponent any chance to a 8-row in autonomous. Additionally, you have either 2, 4, 6, or 8 points that cannot be negated. Other placements can also allow for rapid growth and creation of further rows, or the ability to eliminate your opponents from doing so.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

I agree. I think this year it will not be as important because you do not get any major advantages like a little break to get balls. I think that this year it is however crucial nonetheless because you automatically have three rings in a row that can not be moved. This means that it is easier to make four, five, etc., in a row.

Pavan.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

Autonomous can mean that the opposing team has no chance at all at having a row of 8, (which will be very hard to accomplish anyways), and if you can get a keeper on, it can't be negated. I think it's very important.

Just my two cents.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

I see what some of you all are saying about this not being as challenging, but here is an idea for you.

Let's just say that you have a very fast drivetrain that is capable of beating the other alliance's robots to THEIR side of the rack at the beginning of autonomous. If you do, you now have the opportunity to allow your program to do the aligning and scoring on your blind side. This not only could give your alliance a definite defensive foothold on the other side, this could give your alliance the opportunity to build even further around (6, 7, maybe even8), and as you came further around to your side of the rack, the harder it would be for the opposing alliance to get a spoiler in the most desired place on your row (middle, I would think, would be where you'd want to break it up). Now, just think how dangerous 3 bots with this 'blind-side auton scoring' capability would be. it would make it wery feasible to get an 8-ringer row.

<I know this is a stretch, and I don't know if i can talk my team into trying it, but I think it would sure be cool if someone could pull it off.> JH

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

This is an important perspective that I hadn't considered. In 2005, fifteen points was a good score for autonomous. Two was most common. In most matches, it wasn't a dealbreaker either way, but it gave you a head start by possibly holding a whole row, or at least a pair of goals. In 2004, unless you were team 190, autonomous wasn't a huge deal (much as I loved it) because it just meant that you had to either go to the other side of the field to herd, or you could spend the extra 30 seconds pushing goals around. From a scoring perspective, the difference in points was negligable. I love autonomous, but I think it's key to make it so that those fifteen seconds don't absolutely break the back of your opponent. Hanging three keepers is an achievable goal, and gives a definite advantage by starting with eight points and a chance at bigger rows. Last year's autonomous is exciting, but it's no fun to have your average alliance come up against one crazy robot, and start out down 40.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

I think this year's auto mode will still have great value. Maybe not as high as last year's, however.

The Keepers scored in auto mode can be very important in the formation of chains of 6/7/8. I think it's not very feasible to make a chain of 8 without 2 or 3 of them being keepers.

Also, "winning" auto mode can set your alliance up with a slight, yet possibly useful, lead.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

I agree with those who say that this year Autonomous is a bit of a let down and reminds me a lot of 2005's except there's no hanging anything to knock down. Unless you're with some great teams, your chances of stacking three in a row in autonomous is extremely low. Today we played around with our 2005 bot to see how easy it is to place a ringer. The first try took about 2.5 mins, the second try it took about 1.5 minutes and there wasn't much improvement after that. Obviously our gripper is not suited for this game, but if its that hard to line up our robot when we have full control, it'll be very tough to do in autonomous. We feel dedicated to try and get it to work, but I bet a majority of teams won't be able to do it. Hopefully I'll be proved wrong.

Another bummer is that there's nothing else you can do in auto mode for points. Drive to the opposite side and try defend someone? That's about it.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

I want to really emphasize what other folks have said, by offering this perspective. At the end of the autonomous mode you haven't scored any points. No referee computes a score at the end of Auto during this game, and no bonus is given to anyone. So, don't think at all about what your score is at the end of Auto....

Instead at the end of Auto you should think about how your alliance is now positioned for having an expected score (high, low or medium) at the end of the match.

This year's Auto is about accomplishing objectives that prep your alliance for the rest of the match, not about writing down a score at the end of Auto. Computing your score at that moment is akin to asking the proverbial "wrong question".

Blake

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

The alliance with the most points during the autonomous period is going to have an advantage because the points scored during auto. mode cant be canceled out or de-scored. :D

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

Ahhh... the beauty of an exponential series...

ANY tube you put up there has the potential to double your score. It doesn't matter whether it is the first... in auto mode... or the last.

What you do in auto mode doesn't just ADD to what you do in driver mode... it multiplies it. In matches between top alliances it may turn out to be one of the most important auto modes FIRST has devised so far.

And I don't think you need to use the camera to score in auto, either. Sensors, obviously... the camera, no.

Jason

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

I really agree with you. I see this year's autonomous as providing you with a better position to build onto, rather than a score to transfer. This year's autonomous could really give you either control of a row, or control of a column, both of which can put you in a very good situation to score from.

Guy

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

This is really what I think FIRST has been wanting autonomous mode to be for some time; the only reason I believe they made last year's auto as important as it was is so that teams would be forced into doing it, with not bothering to try basically "giving the game" to an opponent who does. This year's is just Triple Play's autonomous again, but with a better target system this time.

Also, think outside the box; scoring a keeper is not the only useful thing you can do in autonomous. I'm glad to see the 15 seconds back; since I'm confident we will get the camera working with ease after using it so much last year, I'm looking more to work on what to do after/aside from scoring a keeper...

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

I'd like to quote what Jason said because he put it in words better than I thought I could. Due to the exponential scoring of the nature, the relationship between autonomous and teleoperated is no longer addition, it's multiplication. Which is why I'm starting to think it could end up proving to be as important as Aim High was. Just because with some fast offense, you could end up with a row 5 of which won't be amazingly hard to defend due to it's "heart" being guaranteed.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

Everyone seems only to be considering the points; what about defense? The cage that houses the spiders can be knocked three feet off it's base, right? Why not knock the cage towards your opponents? That makes it harder for the enemy to score (the cage will interfere), while making it easier for your allies to score. Of course, if you knock it while your allies are trying to score....

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

I left our first team discussion thinking that auto mode was HUGELY important.

There are lots of things you can do in auto mode that are usefull.

1) Naturally you can place keepers. To me this is a HUGE advantage, because there are only two ways to guarentee holding a spider as your own... Place a keeper or (oops, nearly gave away a strategy). There will be lots of chaos in a game, and knowing that a certain spider is locked will be a huge asset. Especially if you have several robots with auto modes. Placing three keepers on the same level in a 1 -3- 5 position (under lights) means you only have to fill the gaps to get 32 points.

2) Auto mode is the only time you can get almost excluside access to the rack, so it's you one moment to grab your favorite position

3) If your auto mode is not good enough to place keepers, then be a spoiler.. race down to the other end to prevent the other side from scoring. Or just be ready to grab one of your ringer from that end and bring it back.

Also...

Just because auto mode is short, it doesn't mean you shouldn't be creating automated function in your robot to be used at other times in the game.

Think how hard it's going to be to place a ringer on the other side of the rack, on one of the diagonals (based on poor visibility). We're planning on seveal auto modes that can align with any spider based on known heights and available target lights. You have lots of spare inputs available on the OI, use them.

Imagine being able to run to the opposite end of the filed, turn generally towards the rack and then hit the "Place on top row" button. We did this last year with our shooter.

Think of any actions you are likely to have to do in a hurry, and then automate them.

We had so many auto options in autonomous mode last year, we created a tiny switch that could be plugged directly on the RC. Just before a match we'd just dial up the one we wanted. Just pausing before making a run for goal was a killer strategy.

Here's our Auto-Switch:
http://www.team1629.com/AutoModeSwit...1/Default.aspx

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

My famous last words in response to this;

It will NEVER happen!

No alliance will be created that will have 3 robots able to all get keepers in autonomous in a single match.

Matt B.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

I tend to agree. It will be rare enough for three robots of either alliance to get three on much less three from the same alliance and even less than that three in a row. This will be the same as capping the center goal with the tetra in 2005. It won't happen. I hope I am proven wrong though!

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

You willing to make that a bet?

$50 steak dinner at Outback?

-dave

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

If he's not, then I am...

I don't see more than two teams doing this, much like last year, when not more than two teams went for the 3pt. goal.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

Please, a little GP is always in order.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

The only real advantage of the autonomous this year is to be able to claim 3 spots in a row and get good field position for the human operated part. although this is a small advantage i think it will be a major factor when it comes down to it.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

Initially, I also thought that the autonomous mode was about worthless this year.

But then I got to thinking, and I realized that it's not worthless, it's just anticlimactic. Getting a keeper on a row means the maximum scorability of your opponents in that row is divided by 2.

The other thing that you need to remember is that the score grows EXPONENTIALLY with each ringer in a row. If you can manage to get 3 keepers in a row, that not only guarantees at least 6 points, but significantly increases your chances of getting 32 or more points in a row.

There was an argument made in another thread that getting a robot 12" is worth almost 5 tubes in a row. But getting 6 in a row is worth more than both bots 12" in the air.

if you can guarantee 3 of those 6 will stay, it's a matter of stopping your opponents from spoling or filling in the gaps to guarantee high scores.

I'm predicting that you will see at least one qualifying match per regional where there will be 7 or 8 in a row (and it will likely be the top row). Of those, 2 or 3 will be keepers.

Sorry for the ramblings of a flu-infected coach.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

If he doesn't I will! $50 is a small price to pay for your service to the entire FIRST community. I would love to have the chance to pick your brain for an hour over dinner! :)

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

I don't think the FIRST board placed as much importance on the autonomous mode this year point wise. I wish they would have because I think it's an important thing. I think this should be taken into consideration when forming a strategy. I don't think there is a VERY big advantage to a great autonomous.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

I have read several people say this. An important point to remember is that the extra ring doubles the score for the row that it is in, not the whole score. (I know that you all know this, but we need to keep the exponential thing in perspective). My guess is that most ringers will make a 2 row into a 3 row (a plus 4 points from 4 to 8). How long will it take a team to make a ring counting the time from one score to the next score (the whole cycle)?

I'm betting that the end bonus in this year's game will be as big as the "king of the hill" bonus in 2003.

Matt B.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

Dave,
If you want to open it up, I'll take that bet.

I hope I do get to see three from one alliance in autonomous - in a row or not, but $50 is cheap for a entertaining dinner with Dave and a few friends!

I guess we would have to look at your face, though, wouldn't we?

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

I think one alliance will be able to get all 3 on in auto...

...that might not happen until the Finals on Einstein, but I still think it will happen sometime.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

The Randomly moved Rack reminds me of Triple Play's randomly placed tetras in that it will be difficult and the rewards will be too insignificant. This year's autonomous is certainly more easily accomplished, but I agree that it is not well enough rewarded.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

I am VERY dissapointed in the auto mode this year. As a mentor I live for the auto mode. We were a rookie team low scorer last year and we were 9-0 at Houston because of auto mode that always worked.

This year it is different, an auto mode will not set us apart like last year. But I have told myself get over it.

It will be very difficult to score in auto, maybe it is only one tube but it will set you apart.

BTW as far as three teams scoring, it will be done in atlanta. Our team was part of an alliance where all three of us scored, it was sweet just to warch, see video, we were the low scorer that did it from the far position:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...442&q=1902+233

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

The odd of a 8-Row 256 Point combo is slim to none. Three robots would have to fight carte blanche against either 3 rookie teams, or a combination of a damaged robot and two robots that can't do jack. Trust me, any robot that scores 256 points will have slim chances of making it to the finals. By that time, the other alliences will have caught onto this pattern, and will be effectivly blocked.

Much like the 10-balls-in-2-seconds robot in Aim High.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

well it depends on what you do with auto. I mean a really good stratagy I thought of is to drive to the other side of the rack and score your keeper on the other side thus prementaly derupting opponents line making abilities

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

Any team capable of doing this will get mega props from just about everyone. I believe that Autonomous could be what sets apart two otherwise equal alliances - due to exponential scoring, that one extra keeper might end up mattering a lot.

Also, as with the others, I'd also pay $50 for a dinner with Dave. Sounds like Dave could make much money (and eat for free) if he wanted to :P

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

EDIT: Okay, Philbot did get this. But the point remains.

AAHHH! I swear you're all missing the point of having a robot that's successful in autonomous mode. I would've expected everyone to have learned this lesson last year, but perhaps I'm mistaken. It is vitally important to offensive robots for one reason and one reason only.

You don't have to restrict the operation to autonomous mode.

If a robot is capable of homing in on a light and successfully scoring a ringer, why on earth wouldn't you take advantage of these abilities? Do you honestly think your human player is going to have better luck at this from 40 feet away on the opposite side of the field, looking through a rack festooned with ringers? I understand that it might not be able to compensate for a defensive bot, but you must admit that a robot that can easily score in autonomous is more likely to succeed than a human when the human can't see what she's doing.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

[quote=Kevin Sevcik;551921]
You don't have to restrict the operation to autonomous mode.
QUOTE]


One of my managers, who happens to be in charge of our automation efforts, has a saying. "You don't really understand a process until you automate it". I have found this to be the case in all of the automation efforts I have been involved in. When you have people in the loop, they compensate for what they percieve to be happening, many times without knowing it.

One example is automated drilling of a stack of different materials. For years we had been drilling a stackup containing titanium, carbon epoxy, and aluminum by hand. When they tried to automate the drilling they just could not get a good quality hole from the machine.

Now remember, we (Northrop Grumman) drill tens of thousands of holes per week in difficult materials, we should know something about drilling holes. Finally they went back and instrumented the drill the mechanic was using to drill by hand to find out what was really happening. It turned out that that mechanic was adjusting the pressure on the drill in accordance with the sound the drill was making. The mechanic didn't even realize he was doing it. A few new sensors, a little programming and viola!, good clean holes (and here's the important part) EVERY TIME.

So we learned a little more about a process we thought we knew everything about.

I would suggest that if you can't get a ring on autonomously, you really don't understand how to place rings. If you do understand how to do it autonomously, why would you do it any other way? Because if you really are doing it right, it will work every time.

Now whether any team will get that understanding before the Championship is over is a completely different question. The addition of defending robots also complicates things because they introduce things you can't understand completely in advance.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

I just don't see autonomous being as big a part as last year. Last year they made it possible to do several things (dump in lower goals, shoot, block) this allowed less experienced teams to do things that were still useful.
Now you not only HAVE to use vision, you also pretty much need to have a very accurate setup to actualy score the ring. Assuming that rack is shaking all over the place it might be impossible for teams that do not have a good manipulator design (that can stabilize the rack)

Secondly autonomous does not really give that much of an advantage.
The randomized rotation of the rack makes it so that you do not know whether 1 or 2 lights will be visible, furthermore you DO NOT know which of those two lights your alliance member will pick to go towards, because of this robot collisions may occur. I just don't see 3 different rings being scored very often.
Lastly 3 rings on the rack doesn't pose that huge of an advantage,

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

Ok, here is where I differ with you. First off even an unexperianced team can still do useful stuff with autonomous even if they are not scoring (and experiance has nothing to do with it, it's all skill and knowledge) such as setting up to collect ringers when autonomous is over, etc,etc, etc... Next, the camera can track more than one target, and the targets are 90 degrees apart, so if it can see two, it drives forward until it only sees one, ta da! Next you forget about how little the shaking of the spiders actually matters, if you do the math and take into account that the keepers are beveled, then you find out that you have a little more than 6 inches of play in any direction. And lastly, if you set up keepers during autonomous, then they can't be blocked, but can be used to make chains during teleoperation...

My 2 cents...

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

I'm with Dave on this one.

Sure, I doubt it will be three rookies who accomplish this together, but any 3 teams who can collaborate before a match and each have a successful mode for keeper delivery will definately be able to pull this off.

I have faith in FIRST team members across the world that they can co-operate enough to get this done. :)

And I'll add in it can be any 3 teams scoring on any 3 spider legs but it has to be in auto and all 3 have to be scored. :)

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

I am going to agree with both of you on this one. Anything can happen, especially on a FIRST field. Plus I think Dave might want some help to pony up with so many people willing to take the bet ;-)

On A separate note I agree with a lot of whats being said that autonomous isn't as important this year. I think the GDC might have done it for a reason because, as stated, autonomous was quite frequently the deciding point in many matches last year, so it made it harder for rookie teams and other teams that were programing challenged. Sure there was Easy C but from what I am told you can only do so much with that.

This year I think they are trying to find that balance for autonomous mode that makes it neither too important that its a complete deciding factor yet not too minor that teams blow it off.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

I think the group is correct, that autonomous has been devalued from previous years.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

wow, i cant believe people are disappointed with this auto mode. This auto mode is HUGE, you get such a huge advantage if you have an alliance that can three on there in row.....all you need is one on each end you already have a row of 5. It's a lot easier to protect 2 spiders than to protect 5. I like auto mode this year...alot

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

See - this is what I was saying earlier.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

I have had a successful auto mode for last four years except for 2005 when the team didn't deliver a working robot until it was way too late.

Let me tell you this will be a VERY difficult auto mode. Having three teams do this will be extremely rare.

Last year we could score half our points in auto mode, this year it is just another tube.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

What is the difference between scoring half your points in auto mode or doubling the score of a row by having one extra ring in that row? The way I see it, if you have a row of 8 due to a keeper placed in auto mode, that keeper was worth 128 points. NO ONE could score 128 points in auto mode last year.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

All of this is theoritical until game time. I doubt we will see 8 in row except against dead players. Five in row will be tough we will see.

We are going for auto mode. I hate seeing the robot sit there for 15 seconds. I think we will succeed at it. Hardware build looks good in their approach and auto mode helped so much last year hardware guys are motivated to have it built and give us a week and half for driver and auto mode.

My only point is that auto mode is a lot less than last year but more than other years.

I do hope I am wrong and it will be significant. I do think it will make a difference in many rounds.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

I envision lots of teams (rookie and otherwise) building a robot that scores on the bottom, or bottom two, rows very effectively. If for example the Blue alliance were made of purely middle- and bottom-scorers, then the top row is open to the Reds and Reds alone. This gives the Reds an opportunity to score their three keepers on the bottom two rows, not only adding to their score, but blocking huge points by the Blues.

Here's another aspect of autonomous you may have not considered. Each alliance has 18 ringers (9 on field, 9 in stations). Equally dividing them allows 6 ringers per robot. The Teleoperated period is 2 minutes in length. Assuming the robots don't do any Endgame activities, that's only 20 seconds to obtain each ringer (half of them being on the opposite side of the field) and score it, with 5 other robots zooming around and most likely very limited vision by the drivers. Having fifteen free seconds to A) score permanent and potentially exponential points; B) play defense; C) position your robot for a quick start when Teleoperation begins - that's not something to sneeze at.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

Good points. I told the team a very successful routine is place a tube and turn and get ready and in place for another one once the game begins.

One fun things about FIRST is seeing what creative methods teams come up with to solve the same problems.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

I think the major difference between this year and other years is that the auto mode is a lot more strategical, rather than skill involved. This year requires a collaboration of all the robots on the alliance, whether it be for position or the placing of tubes. Individual robots will not be able to accomplish that much by theirselves. Last year, teams could shoot 10 balls into the ring, and grab 40 points. This year, the most any single robot can get is 2 points. Sure, its an advantage to have evena single keeper, but for auto-mode to be in any way advantageous, there must be multiple robots involved. This means a much more flexible automode, to ensure that your robot doesn't lock on to the same sensor as your alliance member. Strategy this year will be huge.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

Exactly what I was thinking... Although it is very unlikely it will happen during any elimination matches I suspect we'll see a few 8 in a rows.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

I cant wait to see a defensive autonomous that comes around the rack and gets in the way of a team attempting to get a tube on :eek:

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

autonomis period this year is a real part of strategy

you get three unspoilable places and if your team is quicke you can get 5 in a row fairly quickly, thats 32 points and after that its a good idea to get another one on there, with 6 pieces on all you pretty much have to do is gaurd the center

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

I still reall think that alliances that plan well can make great things out of auto this year. Compatible alliances could, for example, get both the top and middle locations in one colum, esatablish a row of 2 (or maybe even 3...) on any row, and do much other craziness. It might be a bit less important than Aim High, but I still like it.

-Guy

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

This weekend our team finished a full rack. Then we put it into the middle of the street and formed teams of human robots and played the game. It was a real blast, all of us loved it, plus everyone learned the game and it gave us ideas.

Human robots were blind folded and received instructions from their yelling drivers. We didn't have enough tubes yet so we used colored poster board. We had a 15 second auto mode where robots had to do it on their own and had the end game, which was the funiest to watch them clmb on each other.

Observations from the game:

1. rack was almost totally filled.
2. reaching the top was important because some of our human robots couldn't.
3. Each side tended to fill up their side first before going to other side.
4. There were 5 in row but I don't think more than that.
5. Blockers were seldom used, but I think because of inexperienced teams.
6. Ramping tended to be equal thus nulifying it as significant, unless they didn't do it. Therefore putting up tubes was the game.

Auto mode was important not so much not being able to be taken away as a keeper but giving you a head start.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

You are overlooking a few things, it is true the camera can track two targets, but how do you know WHICH of the two targets your ally will go for???

The rack is rotated randomly and there is no reliance on what the other teams program might do,
and while I agree, it is certainly possible and not even ridiculously hard to figure out a way to work this out. I just don't see many teams doing it. You talk about implementing vision like it is a very simple task, but realistically it is not.

Last year I saw about 50-60% of teams do something in autonomous mode (at our regionals) most teams were unable to accomplish anything other than defense. If only 15-20% of teams can program a robot to go in a straight line and dump balls in a goal efficiently what do you think that says about implementing a succesful working vision system?

Lastly you said that if you "do the math" the ringers have only 6 inches of play in each direction.
Do you know how incredibly much that is? you are attempting to put a ring with a hole of 13-14" (?) diameter onto a rack whose cap is 10" in diameter.
I don't think 6" is "very little".
Robots that cannot score in autonomous will move the rack and make it incredibly difficult if not impossible to score.

Lastly, experience does have something to do with it. I'm not saying a rookie team can't pull it off because you're right skill and knowledge will result in sucess. However the vision system is one of those things where it is of great benefit to teams who have the resources to have a practice robot to test code on and prototype. Most rookies scramble to get the bots together, and don't have time. I'm not saying vision is a bad thing but I think more options for play during autonomous would be better (other than just defense) ... I think 2006 was a great example: You could score in side goals, block or score in the center goal

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

I agree.

Most teams don't do auto mode because usually the hardware isn't finished until the last day or worse on the practice day. A good auto mode just takes time to perfect. You can not usually get auto mode done on practice day at a regional, we were able to pull it off twice but barely and that because I have done a lot with autonomous. 2006 we had a simple auo mode that delivered 10 balls every time because it was simpe but that took a day and half non-stop to make that happen.

Few people are going to do a good auto mode this year unless they have several days to work on it.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

I believe that:

• There will be at least one match where there will be an alliance that places all three keepers in a row/collumn.
• There will be at least one match where an alliance will have a row of eight.

I'm not going to say these will be in the same match, but it will happen.

Then again, I also think a hoverbot is a feasible and effective idea.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

Ok. Let me take these arguments one at a time...

First...
Ask them of course! Which of the two? There may well be three visible to the team...

Secondly...
Nothing is necessarily easy, but everything is possible...Like my dad and grandpa always tell me, "There's no such thing as impossible, just harder."

The rack is rotated randomly, however, why does the orientation matter? If you know that the lights are 90 degrees apart and if you find out at what distance you can only see one, then you can find out exactly where you are in relation to the spider legs. You could even set it up to make itself drive until it is equidistant between two lights, then you're aimed at a leg in between two lights. Remember that scoring is not dependant on the rack's orientation on the field, it's dependant on the rack existing at all!

Next...
I think it says that teams should overlap their jobs. On my team, we have the programmers playing with the vision system attached to an old robot, even though this years robot is still being built and the design isn't anything near being finalized yet. Therefore the program team can have several weeks to practice while waiting on a robot to program.

And on to the math...

Ok, here is how I reached the conclusion of about 6 inches. Try and follow me here... If the inside diameter of the tube(the hole) is 13 inches, and it is being put on a target 10 inches in diameter, then there is 3 inches(1 1/2 in any direction) right there. Now, take into acount that the tube is beveled or curved. If you attempt to push it onto the target, even if it is not exactly on target, the spider leg(which hangs from chains) will move so that it fits into the hole. Soooooo...if the diameter of the tube(cross section) is 9 inches, then there is about 4 1/2 inches where it will be pushed onto the leg, now if we tone it down a little so that you are more likely to be on target, then we'll call it 3 1/2 inches added to the 1 1/2 originally is equal to 5 inches of play in any direction. Understand? If not, say so and I'll try to explain it better...

And Lastly...

Please don't compare the game from this year to the one last year. They are very differant. The cams are, however, extremely similar. So yes, experiance will help veteran teams. But, like I said before, if the programmers/electrical team put together the camera and two motors with the electronics, then they can play with the code until they have an actual robot to program. Always remember that you don't have to wait to test something like that! As a matter of fact, if teams havn't started putting together the camera and playing with the code by now, then I don't know what to think. Remeber there is a time limit, so get what you can done while you can!

Ok, sorry it was a little long winded...

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

In my original post, I said it took 1-2 minutes to score a ringer, well we got it down now to 2 ringers in 30-40 seconds (top and middle, picking up off the floor each time). It's all about technique and orientation. Whether that can be duplicated in auto mode, we'll see. The chances that we'll be coordinating which spider leg each alliance member will go for in auto mode is very slim. I also know that our experiences at our regional may be much different than other regionals where there are more veteran teams.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

Well my point was because of the difficulty of actually doing anything in autonomous (the necessity of vision) Autonomous won't play as big a role as in previous years.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

I'm not so sure that because its hard that it will be less influential. If you are one of few teams that can score an uncounterable keeper then if you aren't already in the top 8 you are very likely to be picked up.

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

especially if you are good at scoring during teleoperated mode or are really good at defense...

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

well of course it will always be helpful to score in autonomous, i'm just saying... how many people in 2005 scored a vision tetra??? Imagine if that was the only scoring method available during autonomous, on average autonomous would become much less influential to the outcome

Re: Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode
 

Probably true, however it is always adventagous to take the extra points if they're available. True?