Making pre-match deals
 

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EDIT: I had not realized that this discussion had already taken place many years ago when I originally posted this thread. Given the flame-warish nature of the previous discussion I'd like to respectfully ask the moderators to close this thread, and that we let this thread die without another unnecessary controversy.

Please forgive me.

-Chris

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When it gets to Finals, most of the top teams have very similar win/loss records, it really comes down to those Qualification Points, which are derived from the opponent's score. The higher scoring the game, the better the team's QP.

What were to happen if a team made an agreement with the opposing alliance like so... "We'll let you have the middle row for 256 points, we'll take the top row for 256 points, no spoiling those rows, though you can try to block us from scoring. All competition will be on that lower row."

If both teams honored the agreement, they'd have considerably higher QP than other teams.

I'm not advocating for this, but it does merit discussion. Is it in the FIRST spirit of Gracious Professionalism and co-operation? Or does it go too far and compromise the integrity of the game? What do you think?

Re: Deal with the Devil?
 

We had something like this in 2003 before the W/L counted, it was basically "don't mess with our stack and we won't mess with yours"

Frankly I don't like it...I don't really know why, but something about it doesn't seem quite kosher.

Re: Deal with the Devil?
 

To be honest, my first reaction is don't agree to that top row. If you're in the middle, you'll get a bunch of collumns of 2!

But seriously, I won't touch the ethics or gp point of the question, though it does leave a bad taste in my mouth. All I can say is that it's a bad idea. If you make deals to win rankings, you'll never win or have a fun game against those who don't.

Re: Deal with the Devil?
 

Re: Deal with the Devil?
 

As much as this may be a real world situation, these sorts of agreements aren't honorable within the realm of FIRST's ideology. While it may offer teams a considerable advantage, it is not something I would indulge in. There's something enjoyable about working for your goals, about challenging yourself to play better and harder each time you set the robot on the field.

In the end, its a personal decision, one that reflects upon what you are seeking to achieve through FIRST.

_Alex

Plus, I would want to win that match. :D

Re: Deal with the Devil?
 

It's not a new concept--you could agree to any sort of this-for-that in any recent FRC game.

But I don't think it's gonna be that popular--too many ways for things to go wrong for me to take that route. And I would strongly protest any such agreement on my end.

Re: Deal with the Devil?
 

Basically if that happens folks will prob probably react like this.
What's a FIRST season without contreversy anyways?

Re: Deal with the Devil?
 

Collusion has happened before. It has generally been frowned upon, but it is technically legal. If you don't like collusion, don't agree to collude, and don't join a finals alliance with someone who has previously asked you to collude. There are enough principled people in FIRST to keep teams from actually doing this.

In any case, I suspect that it's not going to be a huge issue, because it's sort of a prisoner's dilemma. Collusion is not in your best interest if it looks like you're going to lose the match. Spoil one in their row at the last second, and you regain the advantage that you lost fighting over the neutral row. Nobody is going to accept a loss to help the other team get their QP. In this game, asking for collusion begets backstabbing.

Re: Deal with the Devil?
 

It will happen at least once this season. Therefore those teams that watch this thing happen will call shinadigans.

Re: Deal with the Devil?
 

Shinadigans = shindig + shenanigans?
(Pardon me for interrupting an otherwise serious thread. I think I've discovered a new favorite word.)

Re: Making pre-match deals
 

It would only need to happen once for an incredible difference in QP. I would guess it would happen towards the end of finals, when teams aren't so much as concerned with their WL record as their QP points. Really what would be interesting would be seeing if the other alliance honored the agreement. If they didn't, they'd probably gain enough of an advantage to win, but that "backstab" would not help them win any friends in later matches. But if an alliance honored every agreement that they made, even if it made them lose, would they gain respect for that?

It's a very interesting thing to think about.

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Edit: Who changed the Thread Title? Is this a normal thing?
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Re: Making pre-match deals
 

I agree with M.O.R.T. The way I see it, this just ain't kosher. The game is played to win. Winning is not only outscoring your opponent, but outscoring them by as much as possible. I think that such match fixing is definitely wrong. Not only you leave too big of a door for cheating and disrespecting each other, I personally would also lose all respect to a team that did this in order to improve their qualifying situation.

Re: Making pre-match deals
 

Honestly, just the thought of it sounds very sketchy. Not only are there so many possibilities for things to go wrong, it seems just downright dirty to me. To make some kind of underhanded agreement in order to benefit yourselves and drive up your QP doesn't sound very GP like to me. This goes back to the whole idea of scoring for your opponent in order to boost your QP (which obviously cannot be done in this game, but has been done by teams on a number of occasions in previous years).

Re: Making pre-match deals
 

GP: acting in a way that would make your grandmother proud.
making an agreement such as the one described in the first post is practically cheating. it takes the fun out of the match. sure you might gain a lot of QP, but are you really that good? making a deal which increases your QP is the cheap, dirty way of making it into the elimination rounds, and should not be done. its not GP, and if its not GP its not the way of FIRST

Re: Making pre-match deals
 

I can tell you that the majority of teams out there will just drop a spoiler onto your row with a couple of seconds left, losing you atleast 128 points and effectively garunteeing themselves a win. Any team that is sly enough to try to cut a deal is definitly capable of going back on it to get the win. 128 qp mean nothing compared to the 2 rp you get for the win.