Innovation First- What gives?
 

After looking at some replacements/ bonuses for stuff that came in this year's KOP. Eventually, that led me to Innovation First. And then, I started screaming. They charge $7.49 for a replacement antenna for the OI! How is it fair for IFI to charge exorbitant prices when it has a monopoly on all of the business for KOP replacements? The "Chicklet" costs 129.99. How can an up-and-coming rookie team pay for something like that. Or worse, the easy to lose power supply costs 19.99. How is it fair to make someone spend their (not unlimited) money on an "official" power supply? IFI already has all the business, so why do they need to charge so much? It seems as though they aren't showing much gracious professionalism by charging 7.49 for a part that seems like it should cost less. I would like to know the community reaction, and also, what you think should be done.

-Blair

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

I don't know how much this stuff actually costs to design and manufacture. I've always wondered what exactly makes a Victor cost $120. Nonetheless, the electronics system that comes with the KOP would cost in excess of $2000 if purchased from IFI. Since your whole KOP plus the entry fee to the competition costs $6000, you can assume that IFI is selling it to FIRST for somewhat less than that, and the savings are being passed along to you. IFI donates a lot of money to FIRST, and I suspect that you still come out with a net savings, even if you buy more stuff from IFI.

On a related note, everything that I have checked for price between IFI and other companies are very similar... the old trannies, speed controllers, wheels, motors...

As far as the Chicklet costing too much, this device was designed by a student in the FIRST and CD community, and is almost certainly being sold at a reasonable price. It is certainly meant as a luxury item... you don't need USB joysticks. If you don't have the $130, flightsticks will work just as well.

Just because IFI has all of our business doesn't mandate that their prices be cheaper... you can't sell things at a loss and make it up on volume. Besides, somebody has to pay JVN's salary, right? ;)

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

You probably aren't aware, but IFI barely breaks even on its FIRST parts, and it isn't unheard of that division of the company to go into the red once and awhile. It makes most of its money on its RackSolutions parts. The Chicklet, developed by Cross the Road Electronics (correct the name if I'm wrong), costs at least $100 in parts to manufacture. Labor to make it and also charging a little bit more to cover R&D bring the price to $130 as we know it. You don't need the Chicklet. Go on eBay and buy analog joysticks for $10-30 a pop. You don't gain extra buttons from the chicklet, as you're still limited to the number of available buttons on a regular joystick.

Nothing needs to be done, the prices are fair, and while they seem high to people usually unfamiliar to robotics, they aren't excessive one bit.

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

Agree with Adam. Welcome to the world of boutique dealers. You say IFI has a monopoly on the FIRST market. I say IFI is locked into a really pretty small market. 1500 customers is just not enough for the economies of scale to start working on these kinds of parts.

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

Allow me to rephrase. I'm not so much frustrated by the price of the "luxury" items, but rather the cost of the little things. 8 dollars for an antenna seems a bit excessive, as does 20 for the OI power supply. They've been known to go into the red, yes, but when you have a monopoly on the only legal parts, you should make some sort of effort to make them affordable, especially for the little, seemingly cheap things. My beef is not so much about the high-end items, but rather the lower-end items.

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

Think and investigate before reacting in such a manner.

Do you have a clue about how much of what you get from IFI for free to start with? Take care of what's there and you never need a replacement. You do know that IFI sponsors these forums, sends people to every FIRST event (the ONLY FIRST supplier to do so), and provides loaner equipment to teams in need at events.

Please call IFI and ask. They'll gladly tell you exactly how much robotics business they do and what their overall profit ISN'T (after you factor in their engineering hours and what they do for free EVERY YEAR). Could you imagine anyone who is profit hungry developing a business around a maximum of 1300 customers? And when they began there were far fewer teams than this. Rack Solutions is their very profitable business that allows them to be so kind to us in the FIRST community. As for the monopoly, I guess you weren't around FIRST before IFI when stuff barely moved because of signal loss, incompatibilities, etc. The seamless electronic integration we now have is a beautiful thing.

You forgot your question mark. This is not mandatory to use and it's not even an IFI product. crosstheroadelectronics.com (founded by team 217 engineers) developed this and even set the price. IFI is helping out by providing the store front and distribution. Im sure the Copioli brothers of 217 (one of them is a WFA winner too, in case you didn't know that either) can enlighten you on the price as well.


Easy to lose? I've been involved with two separate FRC teams since 2001, and never once was one lost. After a few years we wore one out once. Oh, yeah, you don't even need the thing to provide power at competition. Again, take care of what you have if you can't afford the 20 bucks.

Spouting off without all of the facts is a bad idea. It's also bad to invoke the gods of "Gracious Professionalism" to judge others.

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

Thank you all for your input, and in some cases, point by point dissection of my ideas. Please allow me to retract all comments made. thanks.

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

This is not true. In mode 1(y,y) you get 12 digital buttons supported including the POV. Not to mention, you can configure them ANY way you like.

Please read the user manual.


http://www.crosstheroadelectronics.c...anual_rev1.pdf

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

I heard (and maybe its not true) that those cross-the-road guys use poultry in their development, and at a couple bucks a pound, thats gonna add up...

Seriously - I think the one thing that IFI rarely gets credit for - but deserves massive credit for - is their high reliability under the conditions we use their parts. I think they have a pretty strong track record that justifies their prices. I can count on one finger the number of times in many years that we had a problem that actually was an IFI problem (and not something we caused oourselves).

Ken

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

The radios from previous years have been manufactured by EWave for IFI. IFI is actually giving you a deal on the replacement antenna. EWave charges $10. Next time you are in Radio Shack look and see how much a replacement antenna for a radio or cordless phone costs. Also look at the price for replacement wall-wart power supplies are while you are there. Now consider that Radio Shack markets to a much larger customer base than IFI does. Now consider how much IFI stuff you get (OI, RC, 4x Spikes, 4x Victors, the CMU Camera, the Compiler, all the cables and servos, the KitBot Chassis, etc.) for the $1000 of your registration fee. IFI is giving you a hell of a deal even if they charge you $7 for a replacement antenna or $20 for a lost wall-wart. IFI doesn't make much if any profit from it's robotics parts.

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

I'd like to add one more justification for the cost of IFI parts: support.

There is an IFI person (sometimes two) at every FRC competition from setup Wednesday through packing up Saturday night. These people bust their youknowwhats making sure that their stuff works all week long. In their "spare time" they often go out of their way to help teams avoid problems before they get on the field and even troubleshoot stuff they don't even sell. I doubt that there are many teams which haven't benefited from their assistance.

Now, how many other suppliers do you know of with that level of commitment to the customers of a product which barely breaks even?

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

Whoa guys! Calm down, go easy on the guy. He slipped, he even admitted it and retracted what he said, is there any reason to keep coming down on him? Probably should just lock up the thread here.

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

You do realize FIRST pays them to be at each event, which you can be assured that it isn't cheap on FIRST's end either. More over, a few of the folks representing IFI at events, are volunteer's who have only there costs covered.

Also, at one point, i'm not sure if it's still true, but the loaner equipment was actually owned by FIRST.

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

Careful Mr. Fields, you might be letting your bias show through a little there. It would be more factually correct to say that IFI has a contractual obligation to provide support personnel to attend each official FIRST competition event. The cost for that support is mutually agreed upon by both parties involved, and is fair.

That aside, we seem to go through this discussion every year. IFI contributes an enormous amount of time, energy and money into their support of the FIRST program. Beyond the robot control system, they support the field and arena controllers, design and fabrication of the kitbot chassis, design and fabrication of the FIRST CMUcam II, kitbot transmissions, distribution point for the USB Chicklet, distribution point for the FIRST store, and many, many other items. The vast majority of this effort is just based on cost recovery, and much of it is made up of loss leaders.

Yes, they are the only source for several parts that all teams must use to compete. But as Kevin correctly pointed out, the inverse is that they must bear all the cost and risk associated with designing and fabricating a run of parts that are unique to the FRC competition, and cannot be used or sold elsewhere (who else is going to buy a folded metal pan and tilt stand for a custom CMUcam II unit?). If FIRST changes their mind about including a custom-built IFI part in the Kit Of Parts late in the development process, IFI must eat the whole cost (and they have in the past).

FIRST and IFI both receive a significant benefit from their partnership. But all of that benefit is focused on mutual support for the FRC program, and not making a fortune by financially pillaging the teams that are served. FIRST and the teams get a robot control and radio system that is pretty much rock solid, and has had very very few problems over the years. IFI gets to work with a well-established customer base, they get to work with an organization and a program that they obviously enjoy, and if things work out well they get their costs covered. The teams get good service and support from both organizations. Everyone comes out ahead.

-dave

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

I wish to point you to the UFH page: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/uf...eedetail&id=53 . Hopefully, you will understand more about IFI from there. And if you seriously think IFI is charging way too much, why don't you go look at other robotics hobby sites? They charge just as much and if some of their prices are low, most of the time there is no support or/and the product is not of utmost quality. Please keep things in the right perspective before you start ranting. I have been privileged enough to work with the IFI guys in the past few years and although there have been bugs in the system, there may have been unresolved issues, the important thing remains and that is they have always kept very friendly relations with all their customers(FIRSTers). If you want to speak, do so from experience, not from ignorance.

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

I'm not going to continue to slam people for thier comments. I think enough of that has been done. Except for Ken,...Poultry...your kill'n me..... I will say that I agree with Ken and Dave. IFI gets taken for granted. Without them, FIRST competitions would be nightmare. Who else is going to provide not only products, but services intended for FIRST and only FIRST. I doubt any company, if approached and asked to perform the tasks that IFI performs, would be able to do it for a fraction what IFI charges. Even if they could provide a cost effective solution for the hardware. The support they provide would be, at best, difficult to match.

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

Dave, since you know so much, how about posting the actual contract between FIRST and IFI, and let everyone on Chief Delphi decide?

If there is nothing to hide, it should not be a problem.

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

What exactly are they deciding? And why would any sucessful business ever post a contract on a public forum just to apease a handful of sceptical people. Since you are so concerned about things being hidden, why don't you post a public profile that includes something other than just a user name?

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

Not to slam on people, but seriously, think before you speak. There is no reason for FIRST to post the details of any of it's contracts to the general public, nor should there be any reason for it to occur. We are not being price-gouged, there is no financial scandal, there is frankly nothing that would require the public disclosure of such contracts. I highly recommend you drop this issue, it will get you nowhere.

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

Come on, there not going to publicly post a contract.

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

How do you know? As I said before, if there is nothing to hide, why not post it.

How would you feel if you found out that if 25% to 50% of your $6K reg. fee went to paying IFI? Don't you wonder why every year we need new OI & RC?

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

No, because every year you're supposed to build an entirely new robot. They would assume, thus, that you would be in need of a new set of controls. I'd recommend you look at the market retail prices of all the parts given to you in the kit, and compare it to how much we paid. I'm sure you'll see how much of a value it is for FIRST to have all these partnerships with companies like IFI and AndyMark whose main purpose is to provide FIRST teams with affordable solutions to parts. Not many companies are willing to devote a majority of resources to a program that doesn't directly help them in the short or long term.

25%-50% going to IFI? Think about things before you say them, again. Look at all of the things FIRST has to do just to get the program started every year. It's not cheap.

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

I hope you don't mind my asking, but have you asked FIRST to post it somewhere? And before you do, I hope you ask what business is it of yours.

Not even close to 50%. Consider: You pay $6K for registration (KOP and 1 regional). Second regional (and any regionals thereafter) is $4K. So, you pay $2K for the KOP. IFI provides just about that much in the control system. Then factor in the motors, software, pneumatics, and kitbot frame. That kit is probably worth about $5K if charged at full price, maybe more. Oh, and the reason we need a new RC and OI every year is that it makes it easier on everybody except IFI. We don't have to have the rookie kits set aside, provision is made for any updates to the controller, and you're covered in case you blow the controller.

And, I personally think the IFI guys are underappreciated. I worked Spare Parts at the LA regional and two to three times a day I had to go out to the field and find the IFI rep so he could talk to a teamabout a problem or to get his approval for a loaner part. I never heard him complain, and he was busy the entire event maonitoring the field. IFI also provides loaner control systems with the rule that if you don't return it, you pay for it. They put in probably more, if not more valuable, work than anyone else in FIRST, at least at the competition level, with the possible exception of the field managers and event planners.

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

FYI the 2005 FRC KOP had a retail value of over $16,000. For $2k i would not be complaining what's in the Kit.

P.S.~ I would be very wary of what you say, as many suppliers and supporters of FIRST read these boards. We wouldn't want to bite the hand that feeds us now, would we?

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

All I can say is: Boy, I underestimated when I gave a guesstimated value. And I'm sure not going to complain, primarily because it only fails when someone does something stupid like not taking good care of it.

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

Can we not bash Covey41 for wanting to see the contracts. Much of FIRST's financial workings are kept secret. This is not to say that FIRST does not have our best interests in heart; however, I do know that most would find it shocking what their money goes or does not go toward.

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

I'm not arguing with anybody here... but doesn't $16,000 seem a little exorbitant of a price estimate for the kit?

Control System..........................$1,146.71
Victor 884.................................$114.95 x 6
Spike Relay................................$34.95 x 6
Old Breaker Panel .......................$84.95
CMUcam+Pan/tilt ........................$293.90
Kitbot Chassis ............................$189.95
CIM motors/Minibike......................$28.00 x 6
FIRST KOP wheels.........................$18.00 x 6
BB transmissions...........................$89.50 x 2
Remaining Parts**............................$2,500
First Regional................................$4,000

When I added those up, I only $9,569 Which is just over half of the quoted price even though the quoted price does not include the first regional. While this is an absolute STEAL for 6,000 dollars, It is nowhere near what I was led to believe in this thread.

The reason I didn't add the Autodesk software, is because this year it is only a 1 year trial, and for the retail price it is a permanent installation.

What the IFI guys do is amazing, and they should be thanked for it. Their prices are due to a little economic system we use called Capitalism and cannot be helped.

**I am not entirely sure about the costs for the pneumatics system/stock materials that come in the kit, but I believe adding $2,500 is a pretty good estimate, If you have a better estimate, however... please share.

One thing that everyone in FIRST should realize however, is that FIRST and all affiliated companies are our retailers. We pay them for their services, and like any other paying customers should expect a wonderful product, which is given most of the time. When FIRST fails to supply an adequate product, however... we should not make excuses for them. Even though they are a wonderful Orginization that is inspiring thousands of people, they are still our supplier, and we still paid $6,000 for the kit.
Heres a quick comparison: If I ride the buss and it gets me where I'm going for a year without fail... but ONE DAY, it breaks down when I'm on it, and I'm late to work I will still be VERY unhappy. Because I payed for a service that wasn't delivered.

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

http://www.usfirst.org/who/content.aspx?id=78

You want answers, you found them.

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

I would think that FIRSTers would be very gracious with the support they get from FIRST and every single company that are affiliated with them.

It is true that teams have to come up with a lot of money in order to stay alive every year but has anyone ever sat down and calculated the amount of money that is needed to do something like this? Speaking from personal experience, in order to run a two day offseaon competiion in a way smaller venue, with a lot less resources you need good amount of money, persay ten thousand to twenty thousand dollars. Those money adds up very quickly.

Lets see... we got many colleges that offers scholarship to kids. Has anyone added that money up and see how much that is?

Let's take AndyMark.biz as an example. Their transmission are being sold at $330. I know a team in Florida who is making their own tranmission. Without any labor, each transmission parts come out to be $300. Has anyone tried to go out and make a custom transmission with out having the experience. I bet the cost of each transmission would come out to over $500 bucks a piece (including labor).

As far as IFI goes, I have never seen one of those guys back off when my team needed help whether it was at a competition or during build season. Stop by to one of those guys and ask them questions you have. They will sit there and talk to you, needless to say if you send one of your student to John and say "I don't know how to design a transmission, can you teach me?" John would probably whip out his dictionary and start teaching right there. As it has been pointed out before in this thread, IFI isn't given enough credits for what they do for this program. As Mr. Kressly said earlier in this thread... "Take care of what you have."

Your students learn and that's whats valuable to every single one of us. While working with them, we learn too. Where will you find a place in this nation where your students will have one on one conversation with a real engineer and go through a design process?

Team 1345 thanks every single business that is affiliated with this program and for letting us be a part of it.

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

I think this topic has been sufficiently served, and its getting a bit testy in here with all these accusations of FIRST trying to rip us off, that's also already been shown wrong, could we maybe get it locked before things get worse, the original poster has already replied and retract their statements, there is really no point here.

Lock? Please?

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

How about a breather? Let's give it 24 hours and then come back to it.

EDIT: Ok, it's open again, go nuts.

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

OK Jess, since you offered... :)
How about letting everyone on Chief Delphi decide that the actual contract between FIRST and IFI is none of their business? We are customers of FIRST. As such we can expect, and deserve, quality service and a quality product. When we don't get either, we can - and should - make our displeasure known in a reasonable and professional manner. However, just because we don't like something that the organization is doing does not mean that we, as customers, automatically get to peruse through the internal business documents of the organization. Asking to do so is inappropriate, just as asking about the salary of a particular FIRST engineering intern would be.

Earlier Cody made an analogy between FIRST and a bus company. As he noted, if the bus provides a good service and gets you where you are going, as a customer you appreciate the service. But if it breaks down one day and you are late to work as a result, you are justified in being disappointed because you have paid for, and expect, a certain minimum level of service. To extend the analogy, in such a case you are free to comment on the (lack of) service, and even write a letter of complaint to the owner of the bus company. But just because you aren't happy with the bus company does not mean that you get to look at the internal contracts between the bus company and their providers. Their internal business papers are their business and not yours. Whether they have "something to hide" or not is irrelevant and a specious argument.

If a significant chunk of my registration fee went to pay IFI (it doesn't) then - based on the quantity and quality of the service that they provide to FIRST and the community of teams - it would not bother me. At least, it would not bother me nearly as much as knowing that a significant chunk of my registration fee went to pay a certain unqualified vendor for the previous three years disastrous scoring systems. But that aside, the reality is that the largest chunk of the registration fees goes toward paying for FIRST operations and the functions provided by the capable people in Manchester. And for the services that they provide to the teams and the FIRST community, I do not begrudge them that portion of my registration fees (and none of this is secret information - all you have to do is look it up in the annual FIRST financial report).

We get a new OI and RC each year because the teams insisted on it. Back in the day when FIRST owned all the control systems and teams had to return them to FIRST at the conclusion of each competition season, teams complained bitterly about not being able to keep the control systems. There were endless requests to be able to keep the control systems that they needed to be able to demonstrate their robots and use them during the off-season. When the new IFI controllers became available, FIRST sought out a lot of feedback from the teams on this topic. In response to the teams' request, FIRST adjusted the price of the registration fee specifically to account for the teams' purchase of the RC and OI so they could keep the old ones and get new ones every year. So let's just drop the whole concept of this being some FIRST-IFI plot to screw the teams for more money. It isn't, and to imply so is just inane.

-dave

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

Dave,
I always appreciate your input and trust that (aside from the cutting humor) you speak the truth from a first hand point of view. So, thanks for speaking up on this. This subject seems to pop up in one form or another every year. Maybe this time it is finally put to bed permanently.


Now as for speaking from a first hand point of view.....Care to elaborate on the above comment?;)

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

I've seen alot of talk about how much the kit costs "in the real world" compared to how much FIRST teams pay. I advise you to take this with a grain of salt. Keep in mind that liquid assets (cash) are not always equal to real assets (the business as a whole).

The world revolves around incentives. If there was no incentive for someone to do something, they simply wouldn't do it. Our official suppliers were given the incentive from FIRST to trade some cash now for a huge pool of graduating engineers in the near future. Money is relatively easy to come by; there will always be people to sell products to. The real value is in the people who make the products. A quality team of motivated engineers are worth their weight in gold to big technology companies. If given the choice between a little bit of cash now or an abundance of quality prospective employees later, I'm will to bet almost every company you asked would take the latter.

Also, how cares how much IFI gets from their contract with FIRST? Leave the conspiracy theories to the guys outside the fence at Area 51. The bottom line is while registration costs roughly the same every year, the quality of the kit and the event becomes progressively better. No matter how much cash IFI gets (or loses) from supporting FIRST, every student is still given the same great experience. $6,000 for an entire team (which may I remind you IS NOT just made up students. Parents and mentors love this stuff, too!) is CHEAP for what we're getting. You can't this kind of deal anywhere else. :)

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

Many people have always had a problem with the price of the FIRST Robotics Competition, but I can assure you the price of it results in no way from secret price gouging, IFI, or any other loony conspiracy theory. The high price of the competition has led to the creation of lower cost alternatives by FIRST (such as the FIRST Vex Challenge) and other organizations (such as BEST). If by some inane reason you feel that FIRST and/or IFI is ripping you off, I recommend you investigate another competition that may better suit your price range.
Some items from IFI or other suppliers you may find that you actually could make from raw material at a lower cost (provided you have the experience, equipment, time, and resources to do so), but you must factor in the both the labor costs, effort, and time you save by ordering from these suppliers. Also, as previously mentioned, you have to consider the very small niche market these suppliers are providing to. Most of these items have very little use outside the realm of large scale competition robotics (which, especially after the decline in popularity of combat robotics, are few and far between), and these companies get very little business outside of FIRST.

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

Anyone who has had to use the Hatch scoring systems software can tell you it was an absolute nightmare to use. Especially for the off-season software, obnoxious popup windows, lack of status icons to tell you that the program was running or that a task had been completed successfully, and buggy scoring/ranking problems made it so, at least for our off-season competition, I was constantly backing up the rankings in Excel and ultimately ran the alliances and finals in Excel instead of the software.

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

I honestly think that the problem stems from the fact that no one really understands how expensive these tools are in the real life. I just discovered that the programmer/emulator to the Texas Instruments DSP (Think PIC only more powerful) that Im working with is more expensive than what most rookie teams spend on their robot. The development board Im working with costs just as much the OI alone and while it's more powerful than the OI it's still is an amazing price for a device that just gives me easy access to the physical pins and USB programming. Im sure that someone else is going to point out the fact that the board Im using is more powerful hence it's more expensive but the PIC development boards I've seen fall into the category of slighly less expensive than the OI. That board was only designed to do one thing which is run motors. Im sure the largest expense people forget is the cost in actually developing these types of devices. This has to be one of most interesting aspects of electrical engineering. Unfortunatly, it's also one of the experiences that FIRST can't provide.

Re: Innovation First- What gives?
 

Concerning all of this discussion about costs, I haven't seen anyone mention economies of scale. Building a handful of devices will be a lot more expensive than knowing 1500 or so are sure-sales.

I'm sure this number would come down (including labor) considerably if they were to gear up for quanity production. Probably not down to 330$ (design variables notwithstanding), but as you can see, the potential savings are huge.

The consideration here is that this applies in other areas of the organization as well. This is not to necessairly comment one way or the other on the IFI pricing/cost structure, but to be something to keep in mind when trying to distill the numbers.