Chief Delphi - pic: Team 842 Tranmission Spine

Chief Delphi (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/index.php)

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- - pic: Team 842 Tranmission Spine (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51440)

pic: Team 842 Tranmission Spine

Re: pic: Team 842 Tranmission Spine

Wow. I'm amazed your AM shifters arrived already. Of course, I'm assuming you ordered them during the build season. Because if not, I do recall them being illegal to use on a FIRST robot.

Looks nice though.

Re: pic: Team 842 Tranmission Spine

why would they be illegal? they're a COTS items, which you can have plenty of lying around for use if they're unmodified. Even if those were modified, as long as the modifications were done during build season they'd still be legal.

Re: pic: Team 842 Tranmission Spine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuttyman54 (Post 552876)

Quote:

<R17> Prior to the Kick-off: Before the formal start of the Robot Build Season, teams are encouraged to think as much as they please about their ROBOTS. They may develop prototypes, create proof-of-concept models, and conduct design exercises. Teams may gather all the raw stock materials and COTS COMPONENTS they want. But absolutely no fabrication or assembly of any elements intended for the final ROBOT is permitted prior to the Kick-off presentation. Any MECHANISMS purchased or assembled prior to the Kick-off presentation may be used for prototyping or educational purposes, but CAN NOT be used on the final ROBOT.

According to <R17> you can't have any pre-purchased mechanisms on your bot, such as an AM transmission.

Re: pic: Team 842 Tranmission Spine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 552942)

According to <R17> you can't have any pre-purchased mechanisms on your bot, such as an AM transmission.

Ahh...looks like I skimmed the rules a little too lightly. Thanks.

Re: pic: Team 842 Tranmission Spine

Just another rule with good intentions but in the end hurts the little guy :-( Teams with big budgets can purchase multiples, some to prototype, then some after the season starts. Low budget teams obviously can't do this, and technically the COTS parts purchased for prior year robots aren't supposed to be used even if its just in order to save money.

But on the plus side, the andy marks work great and you'll be happy with their performance.

Re: pic: Team 842 Tranmission Spine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 552942)

According to <R17> you can't have any pre-purchased mechanisms on your bot, such as an AM transmission.

But you can have unmodified COTS Components that you have bought during the off-season. And the transmissions are unmodified COTS Components.

Re: pic: Team 842 Tranmission Spine

Quote:

Originally Posted by P1d40n3 (Post 553369)

But you can have unmodified COTS Components that you have bought during the off-season. And the transmissions are unmodified COTS Components.

Don't bet on that.

Quote:

<R17>Prior to the Kick-off: Before the formal start of the Robot Build Season, teams are
encouraged to think as much as they please about their ROBOTS. They may develop
prototypes, create proof-of-concept models, and conduct design exercises. Teams may
gather all the raw stock materials and COTS COMPONENTS they want. But absolutely no
fabrication or assembly of any elements intended for the final ROBOT is permitted prior to
the Kick-off presentation. Any MECHANISMS purchased or assembled prior to the Kick-off
presentation may be used for prototyping or educational purposes, but CAN NOT be used
on the final ROBOT.

(emphasis mine)

Quote:

MECHANISM – A COTS or custom assembly of COMPONENTS that provide specific functionality on
the ROBOT. A MECHANISM can be disassembled (and then reassembled) into individual
COMPONENTS without damage to the parts.

Quote:

COMPONENT – A ROBOT part in its most basic configuration, which can not be disassembled without
damaging or destroying the part, or altering its fundamental function.

An AM Shifter meets the criteria of a MECHANISM, not a COMPONENT, and therefore it must have been purchased after Kickoff under the current interpretation of the rules.

Re: pic: Team 842 Tranmission Spine

Well it looks like we caused a lot of controversy! Woops! We will buy a new set of AM shifters. It looked like they were legal, but the rules tripped us up. They are unmodified and they are off the shelf, however they are mechanisms sooooo.........
We will get news ones to cover our bases. Sorry all

Re: pic: Team 842 Tranmission Spine

Oh yes the one person was right, it is pultruded fiberglass. Sorry my mistake. Thanks for catching it though.

Re: pic: Team 842 Tranmission Spine

Look at it like a bonus, if you don't want to use pneumatics elsewhere, you can just buy the new servo shifting version

Re: pic: Team 842 Tranmission Spine

Looks like we'll be seeing another quality frame from you guys. I kind of wish my team had the resources to do the fiberglass or composite materal frame.

How much does your entire chassis weigh? (without motors or gearboxes, just the composite)

Re: pic: Team 842 Tranmission Spine

Check out www.creativepultrusions.com the prices vary for each type of material. It is more expensive than steel or aluminum but manufacturing time is cut way down. In the end is is far more cost effective and repair or rebuilding a piece that breaks during a tournament. All you need is a hack saw and some nuts and bolts and a dremel.

Re: pic: Team 842 Tranmission Spine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billfred (Post 553384)

Don't bet on that.
(emphasis mine)An AM Shifter meets the criteria of a MECHANISM, not a COMPONENT, and therefore it must have been purchased after Kickoff under the current interpretation of the rules.

Quote:

Originally Posted by falconmaster (Post 553463)

Fredi,

Don't do that yet.

I disagree with Sean, Billfred, Andy Brockaway and others who say that an AM Shifter (or other purchased, standard assembly) is illegal. Looking at the definition of MECHANISM, I see a key word in there: custom. We sell standard products, not custom assemblies. Let's look at the definition again:

"MECHANISM – A COTS or custom assembly of COMPONENTS that provide specific functionality on the ROBOT. A MECHANISM can be disassembled (and then reassembled) into individual COMPONENTS without damage to the parts."

I see this as an assembly of individual purchased parts. As an example, a keen designer, can go to http://www.misumiusa.com and buy tooling and components to make a custom assembly of individual purchased parts. This can be done without fabricating anything themselves. You could create a gripper, a frame, or a sliding mechanism that is a custom assembly from purchased parts.

If this rule is continued to be misinterpreted, then IFI Victors, HiTec servos, Dewalt transmissions, BaneBot gearboxes, joysticks, and other purchased assemblies (pre-kickoff, of course) might be deemed illegal by smart people.

I would be immensely suprised if pre-ship-date puchases of AndyMark brand assemblies are deemed not legal. Since 2002 (and maybe prior?), this has been legal. If FIRST were to make this significant change, then it would be wise and gracious to warn the FIRST teams and the supporting suppliers back in July, before the plan for the upcoming season.

Andy Baker

Re: pic: Team 842 Tranmission Spine

For what it's worth, I agree with Andy. However, the real message here is not that AM Shifters, purchased before 2007 Kickoff, either are or are not legal for 2007 FRC events. The message is that this is an unresolved question.

We all (teams, volunteers, suppliers, etc.) need an official response from the GDC, on the FIRST Q&A Forum, to settle the question. And soon.

I'm fairly sure that the question has been submitted and that the question and the response will be published together in due course.

EDIT: A related response has been published, saying that the AndyMark AM-2 shifter would be considered a COTS MECHANISM.