FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

...i was wondering why first did not give cash prizes for winning nationals. FIRST wants to attract more viewers and students and i think money...duh. I know some are probably thinkin that is what the scholarships are for...but umm...i disagree. Money could be used to build next years robot...travel...rent "warehouses"...build stuff...and even give to students to go to school...or some shoes...lol. Well i am for money... The only cons i can think of are...a more competive spirit...which may cancel out gp... and people might deem it unneccesary to find sponsors. but thats what i think...


EDIT: What about if the prize was a refund for your national registration fee?

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

FIRST isn't about the money. It is about the experience.

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

You still get the experience...

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

Money would be a GREAT motivator for certain teams in this game but the aspects of this organization is the fact that you have to work with your community and find sponsors and with that crash prize if there is one than teams might drop sponsors and it would take that factor out of FIRST.

Also you mention that it will take GP out of the competition due to people who want to win JUST for the money. Also this might turn into a MORE mentor oriented game because all the mentors would be working harder because they want the team to win and get some money so they will be more "set" for the future years.


Overall I vote no. Money = BAD for FIRST.


Pavan.

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

Scholarships (instead of cash) would be much better for the students on winning teams.

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

FIRST definitely should not offer a cash prize for multiple reasons, (A) Why should we make ourselves any more like battle bots? and (B) It is both against the nature of GP and FIRST in general.

We should be doing what we do in order to better the larger community. FIRST is working to change culture and we cannot change our culture for the better by turning FIRST into a NASCAR season or a bad reality TV show. We show those who are not involved, and others that are part of FIRST, what you can do with an education and a good work ethic, and we do this through inspiring others to carry on and teach others the goals of FIRST. All that adding a cash prize will do to FIRST is turn it into the equivalent of another failed FOX reality show.

The reward for winning Nationals is that you still have a higher goal to reach for, that being the Chairman's Award. The ultimate goal for any FIRST team, showing that all your work to spread the ideals of FIRST is actually working.

(NOTE: American Robot is a good reality show :p)

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

Why should the winner of the competition get money? Why not the chairmans award? Why not the rookie award?

It's simple, you add money to the competition and you get a stronger "desire to win" which means cheating.

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

People should just apply for the scholarships FIRST already offers. Why add more scholarships when some of the ones theyve already got go unfilled?

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

Without going into any other thoughts, my first thought was:
Where would FIRST get the money for this idea?

My response to my question was, increased costs to the teams.
Then it went downhill from there.

Jane

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

If FIRST put an emphasis on winning at any cost (cash reward for winning) then I would never rejoin / start another team, and I would actually lobby against the program. Bad idea, no way around it. There are plenty of those competitions around, if you want this environment go join them and leave this great experience as untainted as can be.

-Bill Gold

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

This is an overall bad idea... As one of the students on my team has already stated it goes against Gracious Professionalism and the ideas that Dean and Woodie founded FIRST on.

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

Ok guys, let's think of this from a pure logic standpoint. Even if we did want money, FIRST is a non-profit, so where would that additional cash prize money come from? Ding ding! That would be from the teams. I don't know about you, but most teams have a tough time coming up with enough from year to year as is. So I'm going to vote no here...

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

Okay no cash prize...what about a refund for the national registration fee?

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

Thats the same thing as getting paid...

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

No. Any kind of monetary reward for getting any kind of placement or award is a bad idea. We don't need to give people any reason to either perform hollow acts or sabatoge other robots / "go for the throat" on the field in an attempt to get any kind of monetary gain. This program is about learning, competing with honor, and having fun.

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

There is a lot of issues associated with having cash prizes. I think maybe having the team get a free regional registration or something might be an interesting reward. I think many teams do really well and then disappear due to sponsor difficulties and lack of funding. I think however that there is more than enough motivation without having competition prizes for teams to perform well.

I also agree with Cory that there should be focus on getting students all of the existing available opportunities that are not always taken advantage of.

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

FIRST has the money....they make over a million each season...Their budget is listed on page 22

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

That is a lot of refund you are talking about.
I'm not sure the incentive?

Being a part of FIRST and playing with the big dogs is plenty of incentive.
(edit here: meaning - working alongside engineers and scientists in this program, as well as the other big dogs.:))

When you start messin' with money, it brings in a lot of aspects and issues.
FIRST isn't rolling in the dough.

If any more incentive to win was needed, I would look in the direction of scholarships.

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

It is still money being handed back.

Money = NO.

Pavan.

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

I personally disagree with giving out money, but I don't see an issue with giving out some kind of prizes. For example, the winners of the National Animation Award used to (it's unclear if they will this year) get a laptop & software from Autodesk as a reward(prize) for winning. Why not offer some kinds of other incentives--perhaps the opportunity to try out innovative products for next year, computers, or other gear to help teams.

It doesn't necessarily have to be money, but something in return wouldn't hurt--and it wouldn't spoil FIRST. Teams aren't going to cheat for something that isn't a cash prize--or so we'd like to think.

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

The fee for nationals is about 5000 dollars...three teams, four at most win nationals...and FIRST compensates them with a refund.

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

It's not an issue of having the money. Why waste up to $20,000 (alternate on the winning alliance) on something that would be bad for the program? This would encourage cheating. Gracious professionalism would be a sham. Nobody would help each other at the events, since that would lower their chances of winning.

If FIRST wanted to blow $20,000 on something, they could find tons of better ways to do so, that would actually have a benefit.

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

...it doesnt even have to be money...but even without a refund people would cheat, not demonstrate gp, or everything ur grandma wants.

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

Again,
What about the Chairman's?
There would be worthy winners in every area.

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

That's just the registration fee. What about robot shipping costs? FIRST package costs? Travel costs? Lodging costs?

I don't see the point in wanting to pay teams that win. A team should already want to win due to human nature. I personally think a large trophy and that warm, fuzzy feeling you get inside is a satisfactory prize for winning a competition.

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

yea i dont think money is a part of FIRST or should be a part of FIRST, the way it stands now... money would be really against the top award FIRST offers.. Chairmans its all about helping others without any expectations and making the world better arounnd you, if theres money involved wats differentiating first from battlebots or some of the other competitions out there.

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

i say no cash but maybe a deduction from next years registration to keep teams in it

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

I guess this would fall under giving a team an unfair advantage for winning..

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

To simply put, no.

To complexly put, when you add money, you add corruption and greed. FIRST was never, and will never be, all about getting trophies or money. As stressed earlier, FIRST has always been about the learning experience involved, never about some piece of plastic or metal.

The money that gets payed into the kit and into signing up for other events isn't done to get into a competition, it's done to get the tools and assets to teach kids to be critical thinkers, have mentors work and spread their knowledge, and foster an environment of genuine success and feelings of accomplishment

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

FIRST is and always will be about inspiring students to be the best that they can be. Yes i will agree that possibly putting money into the equation will make kids want to be that much better. However you must weigh the positive and negaitve effects that having a monetary reward would have. Once you have thought about your opinion is sure to change.

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

A few excerpts from this article.

How about for getting people interested in FIRST, give a little money to new teams to help them get started. Of course, you could run into the problem of people pretending to be teams just to get the money.
I guess we should just keep it the way it is. Your funding comes from sponsors and fund raising, and your reward for winning is the knowledge that you won.

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

FIRST is about inspiring students in science and technology. They just make it a competition to make it even more inspiring because science and technology are exciting and competitive. Sports seems to see what America is about and that's why Dean founded FIRST as a competition, to be more inspiring to students. If you want cash prizes for building robots then you should just go do battle bots or something like that not FIRST. If we were competing for cash prizes could you imagine how little support we'd have because that would just make FIRST a go for broke competition like any other sport and not a learning and inspiring experience.

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

No cash/refund/etc. should ever be given to a Champion of an official FIRST event. Period.
As for Scholarships, there are already a multitude available, including one that essentially is a prize. The winners of the Championship Chairman's Award select one student for the Allaire Medal:
If $10,000 isn't enough motivation for the students to strive to fulfill and spread the meaning of FIRST and the Chairman's Award, I don't know what is.

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

8+ million in scholarships isn't enough of an incentive?

Besides... if a team just one the championship do they really need any more help the next year... how about helping th eteam that came in dead last... I think they would need more help... If you reward the winners with money or refund it will just make it harder for other team to compete... and that will make newer teams quit.

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

I don't know if this is still the case, but in 2004, we were given two brand new computers with flat screens (courtesy of CDW, I think?) for winning our division at nationals. I always thought that was a nice little perk, and I wouldn't mind seeing it continue.

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

Definite NO. FIRST has been attracting people to the experience that is robotics for almost 15 years now - without the use of monetary incentives. Adding a cash prize would take away the pure fun and the working for the eventual self and team accomplishment that comes with FIRST. There is no need to sell out that way...

:]

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

i think that while money would be cool to have as a motivator, but really FIRST is for young students to gain experience, and skills so that they could be able to make money as they grow up, but still, the money would be good to use for future robots, or the travel expenses, maybe they could have the grand prize as credit for certain companies?

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

That sounds cool. Something thats nice and team would want. But nothing to make the next year unfair or make people cheat/play dirty to win.

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

basically what would happen is the top team wins the money and uses it to make a more powerful robot next year and the year after, and this team keeps winning becasue they have extra money. and then the barley registered teams dont stand a chance against their robot.

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

*stands on soap box*

Giving a cash prize would not be in the spirit of FIRST. Yes, the purpose of FIRST is to change what we celebrate, but it's also to change HOW we celebrate it. I think Dean puts it best in his kickoff speech:

If you didn't read all of that, which is completely understandable, it's long, I hope you read the boldfaced section.

Personally, I consider one of those 'trappings' to be whatever prize you get for winning. FIRST is most certainly NOT about winning. It's about the connections you make with the people you work with, something that is very important in the long run. Please understand that I am in no way trying to undermine the achievements of those teams who have won, that's not what I'm trying to get at here.

Essentially, we are not the Superbowl. We are not the US Open. The aim of FIRST (as I've been taught it) is not to win. Why should the teams that DO win get money out of it, when the team that's been working all season just to get enough money to pull a robot together, and comes through in the end not get anything?

Money for winning just DOES NOT make any sense to me.

$ 0.02 deposited. Now I'm done.

*steps down from soapbox*

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

But there's a difference between winning Chairman's and winning the Championship Event. Winning the Chairman's award entails years of hard work--for many over a decade's worth. Winning the Championship event results from your work over the course of that one year. Yes you can argue that from experience you become better,etc, etc, but regardless--it's based on that year's performance. In 2000, just our 4th season as a team, we won the Championships--but the Chairman's Award wasn't in our reach.

Now the Allaire Medal is something wonderful, but why not have a scholarship for one member of each party of the winning alliance? Or as someone said before--perhaps some kind of technological incentive. I don't think teams are going to cheat any more than they do (if (hypothetically) they do) because they might win a computer, software, etc. It's the thought of cash money that perhaps could drive people to doing extraordinary things. (and not in a good way)

**edit**

I agree with Libby's above statement but disagree with a certain point. You are getting a wonderful reward by just participating in FIRST, yes--but why not reward teams with stellar performance with an incentive or a means to continue. Let's say you get some kind of pass that gets you a discount next season or at some point in the future. Many teams go onto perform very successfully--but die out because of a lack of funding at some point. Why not give these teams that have performed exceptionally some kind of a break.

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

Thank you for your post, Libby.

I think what I'd like to say is that if we start giving cash 'prizes' - it is almost like we are turning around and walking back into the same culture we already have - away from the culture we are developing.

I also think FIRST is 15 years old and should have a lot more time to work on its program development and educational expansion moving in the direction that it is moving now - tweaking and improving as it goes in keeping with the vision of Dean Kamen and
Dr. Woodie Flowers.

Jane

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

If you want a prize go out in your community, visit your local Elementary school, and start something, wether it be a FLL team, FVC team, or just a day where little kids come and look at your old robots, the look on their faces as they smile and learn should be enough of a reward for any of you. As we said at WildStang, FIRST isn't just about building robots, it's about building people.
Being on a FIRST team is prize enough. Money is not needed. Start a new team, and give that prize to other kids, share, create a community that is centered around robotics, just watch and see, maybe you can win Chairman's, The Championship, or what I think is even more prestigious, a peer award from a neighboring team that you have helped more than they could have imagined. FIRST changes lives, you can be part of that change, and I don't know about you guys, but that is prize enough for me.

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

Cost are Spiraling out of control as it is. FIRST would be stupid to do this, its one of the things that killed CART.

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

I am against FIRST giving cash prizes for winning championships, however, I am not against giving teams money for winning regional awards so they can compete at the national level. Last year, winners of the LA regional were given a grant so they could go to nationals. Without this money some teams would not have been able to go, as they had not planned to go to championships originally or had financial difficulties already. It would be far too difficult for FIRST to provide this funding, however, private philanthropies should be encouraged to provide such support.

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

I think its a great idea, really.

Problem is the teams who would win the prizes (for the most part) have full sponsors from GM, Delphi, etc.. Hardly teams who really need the cash.

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

Because simply put, you cannot win Chairmans by luck. Teams most certainly can (and have) won nationals by luck. There's nothing that makes a student on a team that's won 20 regionals and nationals, and technical awards out the wazoo better or more deserving than a student on a team who's never made the elimination rounds and has never won an award. Why reward the former with a scholarship?

And besides, scholarships that are being offered are already going unfilled. Every year FIRST practically begs students to apply for them. Why give out more?

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

It's definitely NOT about the money. Once you get money involved as a prize or goal you're going to see ALL of the Gracious Professionalism go out the door. You would also see teams no longer sharing information and helping each other.

This forum would become a shell of itself.

Unfortunately the $$$ aspect of a prize will change the attitude of many people. This would absolutely NOT be a good thing IMHO

IF you have to ask why then I'm afraid you might not be getting the point of what FIRST is.

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

Who supplied the grant money? And who worked to set up this grant? Did it pay for registration fee or travel costs? It is a good idea, but it takes someone doing a lot of work to find a sponsor willing to foot the bill. Which isn't easy.


Also, if the team who won the regional has already prepaid and registered for the Championship (which many do who are pre-qualified) would they get their money refunded?

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

The money was provided by the Annenburg foundation, and set up through the LA Regional committee, if I remember correctly. It paid for registration fees, with the requirement that the team write a report/letter afterwards about how it helped each team. I don't remember the exact terms if a team had already prequalified.

Again, this would be something nice, but I can't see FIRST taking on that role. It would have to be through arrangements with private donors. In any case, such money (if there is any) should be directed towards science education or furthering the team's work in FIRST.

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

FIRST shouldn't be about the money, it should be about inspiring us in careers in the fields of science and technology. If you give money to the winners then the teams with less of a financial get worse and the teams with more money win more and then have more money to test better robots.

Re: FIRST $CASH$ prize...
 

from many requests, people seem to think that this has got out of hand.

so this thread is closed for now


any questions or comments please PM me