How many teams are 100% student built
 

1323 is proud of the fact that no adult hand touches our robots each year. We have engineering partners that help us with our design but our robot is completely student built. We have students that are proficient with lathes, Mills, aluminum welders and all your basic hand tool. I was just wondering how many other teams are 100% student built. I know some teams get some of their manufacturing done and I just was wondering how many teams are out there like us?

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

Well team 1875 is 99% because we don't have the resources to weld aluminum but we do have a kid that could if we had the resources.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

First off, some people around here might point out that this subject has been beaten to the ground - which it has. See these threads for reference:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/se...earchid=580322
(^the search I did to find these threads^)
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...tudent+ built
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...tudent+ built
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...tudent+ built




Having said that, the students on our team do 100% of the end-design work, but the engineers/mentors help us a lot. what we students do would not be possible without our mentors. We also outsource a lot of our machining. Listening to mentors is a good thing, and outsourcing parts makes for a pretty robot.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

I think it is great to have a robot 100% student built. I believe that any opportunity a student has to get their "hands dirty" is great. The only thing I make sure of, is that sometimes, it is good to give a lead to a student by example. So maybe a mentor would make one bracket to show the students, and then they will make the other 4, 10, 100 or whatever other numbers of parts.

Kudos to your team and good luck at regionals/Atlanta!!

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

Our team is 100% student built. In fact I just spent the whole weekend in my garage building the chassis.

Our teacher mentors take care of the ordering, finances, etc. We do all the designing, building, machining, programming, wiring, etc. We operate out of three shops, one being our machine shop, the other being our assembly room (where we keep parts, etc), and the third being my own shop in my garage. The way we work is we do as much as we can in school, then any parts are brought home with me to work on over the weekend. It begins to get difficult later in the build season, when I'm transferring a whole robot between school and my house (which is about 30 minutes away)...but it needs to be done to get the bot done in time.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

We are in a similar situation as you except we only have two shops our manufacturing shop and our assembly and testing shop, We have access to these during the weekend so it's a little easier for us:yikes:

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

well it is good to get some of those kids who haven't worked a day in their lives to use a drill,saw, screwdriver, sander, grease, and lube. Maybe one day they will develop a callus.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

Ok, ignoring the previously referenced threads, I have this to say (which I've said before):

1. No team is 100% student built. Do you use anything from the kit of parts? Guess what, engineers designed and built those. So yeah, doesn't count.
2. There's a quote that's been used on here many times, steal from the best invent the rest. There is nothing wrong with taking help from people who know what they're doing. This competition was created so that students could learn from their engineer mentors. That's kinda the whole point of it.


That being said, read the referenced threads. Pay particular attention to some of Karthik's posts. He says things well in them and really supports his points.

It's great that your students can build things, but make sure that you're still focusing on the original intention of FIRST. If you pride yourself on not having engineers, you're probably missing the big picture.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

We are proud to say that 100% of the parts on our robot is compeletly student manufactured and put together. Although we ask engineers if we any problems. We do ask for mentors opinions but all the decisions are made by students, 100%.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

My first post was vague at best so here is an elaboration.

A quick rundown of workloads:

- Students do 100% of the in-house machining ( lathe, mill, etc).
- Students do 100% of the CADing.
- Students do 80% of the proof-of-concept prototyping
- Students do the programming.
- Students do the scouting and AV work.
- Mentors do 20% of the proof-of-concept prototyping
- Mentors teach us how to use machines.
- Mentors help with concept design.
- Mentors teach us the advanced stress calculations.
- Mentors take care of (most) budget work.
- Laser and EDM work is sent out of house.


As you can see, we students do most of the designing and building for the finished robot, but we take help when it is offered. In past years, we've tried doing it without design/technical input from the mentors, but that didn't really yield professional (or working) robots. We have to draw on our mentors because they have years of experience in the things that we want to learn. Once again, without the mentors, you wouldn't have a complete team. For the record book; we have four non-engineering mentors, and one engineer.


-Cody

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

589 is proud to say it is also 100% student built. A Coach/mentor has never touched any of the robots. They are there to help guide if needed, but it's all student run. :) Thanks coachs and mentors for this opportunity. :D

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

Our team's motto:

"Student Run, Student Built"

That being said our robot is not 100% student built and we are proud of it. We have two machinist sponsors who do all the sophisticated manufacturing.

We require that students be on hand at the machine shop whenever something is made. The sponsors give us advice and run the machines, but we make the decisions.

The same is true for the design process. The mentors can advice us, and tell us what they think. Their opinions are highly valued because we respect them, NOT because they are adults. In the end it is the students that make all the decisions and do most of the manufacturing.

I think its great that some teams are 100% student built; but I would also hope that 100% of their students are mentor advised.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

This is about the same for our team.

Anyone who says you don't learn by sending parts out is wrong; I have learned a lot from dealing with the machinists who make the parts.

Besides, it is very rare for an engineer to design a part, then make it himself....

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

We are probably have 95% student work to 5% mentor work. We rely on our sponsors (Midwest Fluid Power and R&D Tool) for a lot of design work, ordering of parts, and custom machining (like a gearbox we are getting made). However, I, as Build chairman, and my partner in crime, Dan, make all the final decisions on stuff like designs, parts, etc. But 99% of the time, we're around the rest of the build team to get their opinion as well. As for actually assembly...we do probably 95% of that too because we always welcome the helping hands of a mentor to put parts together.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

I haven't been all the way through the loop with 1618 yet, but I'd guesstimate that about 70 percent of the robot is done by the students. I had a large hand in the drive design, larger than I normally would recommend, but other factors made it beneficial for all concerned. Actual fabrication and assembly of items is largely students. The mentors may start tightening bolts if all the kids are busy, or file a slight sharp edge if we notice one and calling a student over is impractical, but we try and have them handle as much as they can.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

With team 1468 our goal is to have the robot about %85-%90 student with the mentors assisting the other %10-%15 of the time. This is primarily due to the VERY limited resources available to the team so sometimes you need to be creative in what and how you do some things. This is where experience comes into play and where the mentors can pass along some skills.

The old adage of "I do you watch, We do it together, You do I watch" is what mentoring is all about.

One other thing on a personal note. While I agree that I dislike seeing only engineeers and mentors work on a robot while the students sit in the stands. I also dislike teams wearing the "%100 student built" chip on their shoulder. Both are extremes and shoould be avoided.

IMHO the right answer is a blend so that everyone learns from the experience. After being involved with FIRST sionce 1999 there is not a year that goes by that I don't learn something from the team and I hope that they can learn from me. It's truly a trade of experiences.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

If team's robots are 100% student built, then how am I, college mentor, to keep learning? Everyone is constently learning, even engineers. Heck, I'm still teaching the engineers new things.

A good thing is that on 648, we don't send anything out to be machined. All of our machining is done in-house and the students watch. We don't weld anything, so it's that much easier for students to do the hands on work.

Congrats on having a 100% student run team, but who are you learning from? A book? What if you become a mentor, will you still accept the 100% student run mantra? Or would you be jumping at the bit to get in there an do some stuff yourself?

*Sorry if my post sounded a bit harsh, didn't mean it.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

Team 2200 has been 100% student built to date, and we are doing just great.

Not only that but our team consists of 12 programmers and 2 people with knowledge on actually machining and physically building the robot.

me being one of them.

so far i personally have logged approx 130 hours.

Its nice to know that you built it. and that you know that it will work for sure :)

- Bochek

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

FIRST stands for "FOR INSPIRATION AND RECOGNITION OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY" no where does it say anything about students building 100% of the robots.

I say whatever it takes to inspire the students, do it.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

As has been said before, if you used anything (controller, gearbox, motor, etc.) from the KOP, you aren't 100% student built. Engineers built the items in the kit.

That said, have you tested your design yet? I think you'd hate to get to your first regional and find out that the robot doesn't work, forcing you to call for reinforcements from the other teams. (And I bet that some of those extra hands will belong to engineers.) Test it now, rebuild it now, and find out why it failed if it fails.

If nothing else, you should have one engineer to figure out where you screw up when you do something wrong. An illustration: I mentored a Lego League team two years ago. The students were all rookies. The robot had trouble coming away from one mission. I looked at the "code" they had carefully and, lo and behold, I found out why they weren't consistent coming out. They'd put a right turn in with the left wheel forward instead of the right wheel backward, causing them to jam into the field element they were trying to work with. I showed them how to fix it (or how I fixed it, I forget which) and told them to consider it a learning experience. This is what the mentors are for--preventing or fixing student errors that cost the team time or money.

100% student built is not necessarily a good thing. 95% student built means that you have a mentor who will help you to do better.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

I'm going to chime in here. For those who don't know, I'm the coach of the RoboDox - Team 599 from CA.

We have been, in the past, one of those "We're really proud to have a completely student built robot and a completely student run teams." We've been very successful with this approach - and often raised eyebrows at pits where one or two students looked at the backs of a crowd of adults surrounding the 'bot. Our students designed and built and did all of the budgeting, travel arrangements, sponsorship contacts - heck they were even responsible for contacting FedEx and shipping the robot and getting food at the regionals. The team only had one part-time engineer who we rarely saw, except at events...

Then I talked with some people like Dave Lavery, Jason Morella & Woddie Flowers. They pointed out that if you are not having students work side by side learning from mentors, you are missing half of the FIRST program. As Dave mentioned at this years kickoff, the paring of mentors and students is what makes FIRST unique.

This year, we are working hard at making contact and inviting engineers and other professionals to come and mentor our students, and I'm proud to say we have had some success. While the vast majority of the machining is done by students, they are assisted by some mentors. We've had an engineer help with programming and another with some design aspects.

The truth is that we have had difficulty finding engineers who will spend the time necessary to help our program. From what I can tell, engineers come to a team one of two major ways: They are employed by a company that sponsors the team, or they are parents of students on the team. I think that there are many teams started by a group of interested students (and possibly a teacher) who must go out and look for sponsorship and mentorship. This can be very, very difficult.

So we are moving from the 100% student built to a 100% FIRST team as best we can. To that end, I'd like to know if other teams are in this situation, or if anyone has advice on finding mentoring engineers.

Mr. Van
Coach, Team 599
The RoboDox

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

Adam,

Given your team number I'm figuring you're a rookie team. As a suggestion I would take your design and test, test, test and when you figure it's perfect.....test some more.

This has nothing to do with student built, engineer built or trained monkey built. It has to do with making sure you have no unpleasant surprises at your Regional.

Good Luck!

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

not to worry, we have been testing it whenever possible, all that is currently complete is the drive train, (chassis, electronics, air compressor, exct) and i have a good start on the end effector (manipulator)

can anyone smell the fisher price?

- Bochek

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

We are 100% student built...we get some help every now and then but other than that 100% YEAH!

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

Alot, but not all of the team is run by the students. Yes there are things that adults do and yes the kids also have there jobs. Obviuosly money is handled by the adults. The bot is mostly student built (We do enjoy making parents hold things while while we bolt something down, etc). The engineers take a hands off role but are willing to give there opinions and warnings when we ask.

I just hate teams that all you see are adults working on the bot in the pits at regionals.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

I'm going to have to go with 95% student built. Our mentors do help us a lot with design and some of the harder things like welding and stuff that some of us don't quite understand yet.. but we do learn from them so that we will know how to do it for the next time. But other than that we do most of the work, they point out what we do wrong :p

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

I am VERY proud to say team 41 from Watchung Hills Regional High School is 100% student built. and 99.9% student designed. This normal would be 100% however a former student has returned for a year, and has been providing some guiding in the design area. Jeff is really pushing us beyond what we though might be team 41 possible.

made for students, by students.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

Team 1322 is MOSTLY student built. They do the lathing most of the machining etc. If we didn't let our main mentor Joe get in there (he is the 1 last year who cut off the 2 fingers!!:eek: ) then we would go through so many boxes of kleenex from hearing him cry!!!!!! Plus that the kids love it when he makes a boo boo other then the obvious of course cuz then it was us using the kleenex!!;)

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

Students do almost all of the work on my team. My friend does robotics at another school (dont want to name) & when I asked him what he does, he said that he just sits at the meetings and comes home. I think that thats just not right

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

yeah I agree that isn't right.. Some people on my team are like that. I dissapprove but seeing as the team is not a dictatorship I don't have the final say in the matter lol :p But there are quite the few this year that are willing to help!

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

His choice or not? If it's his choice, then he's the one that can change it. Or maybe there isn't enough work to go around yet. Could be he just doesn't want to participate. Now if he's being essentially forced to the side, that's another story.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

Hopefully there wasn't a second?

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

First off I would like to say that many of these mentor/ student built threads are based only on a person's mood at the time. Im sure that at some point people wanted to be 100% student or 100% mentor. I know that I have swayed back and forth on that.

However, the very important fact that everyone seems to forget is that FIRST is about learning. Personally I understand that there is a HUGE amount of information that one person can find and comprehend by themselves. But...the point of the matter is that even though they learn all these new things, there is still so much more that they can never even think of knowing.

Over the past three years our team has developed greatly and has gone from being built by enthusiastic students...to enthusiastic young adults. We began solely on the basis of building a robot, but we now understand that just building a robot is not enough. Personally I have learned an immense amount through my own experiences and research. On the other hand, the knowledge I have gained on my own cannot even come close to the amount of insight I have gained through talking with mentors, engineers and company owners.

This year I have taken a completely different look at how a robot should be designed and built. For the first time, we are making detailed CAD drawings and testing ideas both with prototypes and 3D CAD models. We also have taken the time to use physics and math to optimize weight vs. strength. In my opinion the most important aspect of this "design concept" is talking with engineers, not simply getting their ideas or having them look at yours. We have been able to use the engineers ideas to elevate our own and change things for the better.

It is my opinion that students MUST be involved in the design and build process, but it is EQUALLY important to involve mentors and engineers.

Jonathan Morgan
Team 1626

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

Team 1726 is a second year team. Our rookie year, there were no mechanical engineers involved, the students did all the design and most of the building (with adult help for those things that required use of machines they could not use). The team was successfull, the robot worked, students and mentors (and parents) learned a lot, and people in our city became enthusiastic about robotics.

This year I've been poking my nose into the design process, teaching the students about how a mechanical engineer (me) thinks about design. I don't want to make any decisions about the design or fabrication (aside from safety issues), but I am surely going to offer a lot of ideas (which are mostly the result of having experience), and I am doing what I can to teach the students how to figure out if a design is going to work or not....while it's still in the concept or design phase. I've had to get out the books and learn and relearn a lot, and I've been really pleased to see some of the students eagerly soaking up quick lessons on how to calcluate moments of inertia, maximum stress due to bending, moments, CG, weight of materials given the dimensions, torque multiplication, what motor ratings mean, etc. None of these things were actually engineered in last years robot.

I've seen first hand that a 100% student designed and built robot can be competitive, and I have also seen first hand that high school students simply are not engineers....yet! This is a great opportunity to show them how to be an engineer (the short lesson). We are fortunate to have a few parent engineers, as well as two non-parent engineering mentors, a very enthusiastic teacher, and a great facility to work in.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

I usually do not post on these kinds of threads, but like someone before me has said these responses are mostly based on what mood you are in at the time. I just had a few questions for some of you.

Those of you that are part of a proud 100% student built robot:

1.) I was wondering what kind of relationship you have with your sponsors?

2.) When you graduate, and/if you decide to come back are you going to take no part in the build, even if it would help a student learn or better understand what he/she is doing. If you ask me I think to not teach a new student something that cannot be taught verbally is holding that student back which is doing more harm than good.

3.) Do you look down on teams that have a mentor or an engineer help them with their robot?

4.) What is your reason for not letting an adult help in the building of your robot.

I am not from a team that is 100% student built and let me tell you something I am proud of that. One thing I can tell you is that I learned more in my 4 years of FIRST by working side by side with engineers and mentors than I ever could have taught myself. By doing this they will help you learn how to work on a team that has its member at different levels of education. When you enter into the workforce dont you think it will feel good to know that you have helped bring the new generation students together with the current workforce? Now I am in no way supportive of a team that has a majority engineer/mentor built robot. But I will stand behind any team that has engineers teaching students the design/production processes, for these teams in my opinion have accomplished the purpose of FIRST.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

Gee RedBarron, after your above post it appears that you can almost hear the crickets chirping. This has been a good discussion with some good open ideas. If it does continue I hope that it remains that way. A responsible exchange of ideas is always a good thing.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

When my team started out in 03' we were 100% student/parent built. But over the last 4 years we have been able to obtain more and more engineering help. Right now we have a solid group of 3-4 engineers and 3-4 college mentors who are really helping our team. Throughout this transition, I have been able to see the drastic impact that engineering mentors can have on a team. The level of efficiency and ability to get things ordered and accomplished has increased immensely with the addition of engineering mentor help. Plus, seeing someone who is actually in the engineering field getting really excited about the robotics program is really inspiring.

I guess, in conclusion....Yes, it is admirable to be 100% student built, but you are missing out on a large percent of what FIRST is about.

court

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

Good Discussion guys. (Even though it has been hashed out let the newer members hash it for awhile.)

I am glad for however you get your robot on the field and develop some skills along the way.

With our group we are about 75% student designed and about 80% built by students. We do this for one because we can and we have a collection of great mentors. I know that some teams don't have mentors at their disposal so they make do with what they have. Our students value the education and experience the mentors have that they have yet to achieve. At that point they step back and observe how things are done by professionals. To have respect for the process you are in right now, respect the knowledge around you by using it to your full advantage. By having the engineers involved you bring in industry standards, project management, and fresh ideas.

Anyway, good luck however you go about this. See you all in a couple of weeks

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

I belive that adults should have some influence on the robots because they are older and wiser then some of our more.... interesting students. And I'm not just saying that to be a suck up. But we are about 70%.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

This year's bot I am very proud to say was 100% built by students. Not one single part was sent out of our own student team member's hands. I am also proud to say that this year's design not only beats every other year's designs in both strategy, functionality, and "simple complexity", as I call it, but it was also pretty much built with basic hand tools, with the exception of a drill press.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

Our team is 100% student, which I believe in. The main argument for mentor/engineer built is that the students will not learn any other way, but there are ways for kids to learn other than having someone else do the work for them. (Asking questions on this forum, for example)

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

Team 195 is completely student designed and mostly student built. The only thing that isn't being done by students is welding.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

I'd say our robot is more than 95% built by students, with the mentors making parts in order to show other students how to make parts, and the students then take over. Also, during the week we had finals, (and couldn't work) our mentor made a couple parts for us, but they were things like bushings, not like our lift mechanism. The main components of the robot are completely student made, with mentors advising.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

114 is 100% student built, with the exception of the CNCing. All parts which are CNCed are 100% student designed though.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

Team 204 is 100% student run. We have our advisors who make sure nobody kills themselves :D but other than that, we find travel arrangements, hotels, food, metal, machining, driving to get parts, ect. We are very proud to be a very competative team with zero help from any professional engineers or machinists. We all feel that by building the robot ourselves, it will only benefit us in the long run. Instead of "watching" how to build a roboti, we jump right in and do everything ourselves.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

I'll answer these as I would have after my first season in FIRST, and as I feel now after a few years mentoring.

1)
Then: Not much of a relationship. They sponsored us, but didn't send any engineers, so we were really didn't have an opportunity for mentoring anyway
Now: On my most recent team, it was about the same. Some of the sponsors were student's parent's employers, so the parents were there, but they would have been anyway. The other sponsors (school board) obviously couldn't send anyone. Really, I'd call it about equal to my original high school team

2)
Then: I probably would have said I was going to return, because in fact I did return to that team the very next year. I felt pretty guilty about every line of code I wrote or helped write outside of teaching C/C++.
Now: I still feel pretty guilty giving too much more detail beyond a general algorithm outline. I feel good teaching stuff they typically wouldn't have learned in HS math or computer science courses, but I feel bad saying "alright, so this is exactly a method or algorithm that will work".
3)
Then: Given a team that had any adult touch their robot at any point during build or competition, I would have thought they were, if not cheating, bending the rules of what was purportedly a high school competition.
Now: I mainly only dislike teams with pits full of adults, which is difficult to reconcile with my enjoyment of hanging out in the pit with the programming team begging to adjust code on the robot.

4) Since my old HS team was primarily a fabrication-based team, the teachers view it as an extraordinary chance for the students to apply their manufacuring skills that they've been learning. Thus, there is little need for adult mentors seen, as all the senior students already know how to mill, lathe, drill press, and weld. Also, there was a strong view of the competition as a primarily high school competition, so teams with super-heavy mentor involvement were seen as bending rules. Plus, the students get a much better feeling of accomplishment after finishing a robot and knowing that they did it ALL.

So there are my answers to your survey. Right now I'm pretty fine with heavy mentor involvement, but primarily limited to teaching students how to use tools to get the job done. Whether those tools are lathes, hammers, algorithms, or math, that's all good, just so long as the mentor isn't the one implementing the code, fabricating the part, or designing the robot.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

Team 1501's stand has always been student lead and built. The mentors are there for help / teaching, and advice.

A good example of this would be our Monocoque deisgn / construction. If it wasn't very Jerry Smyth taking us under his wing and showing us what it was all about, and the concepts of it, and then how to apply those, we would have never started that way. Now, Jerry is still there teaching the new students, but unlike the first year of 1501, there is now senior students teaching new students.

Students make decisions on there own. For example, we had several robot design conceptions. So a mentor jumped in and set why don't you use a voting system like this to vote on the designs and the strengths and weaknesses of it.

FIRST should always be about taking a students interests and letting them go with it and do what they like to do (with limitations of course), and if they don't know how to accomplish something there is always a mentor there to help.

Personally I like seeing students have fun and gain knowledge from other students or mentors that they will use for the rest of their lives. There just does not seem to be any point on being a member of a FIRST team if the mentors are going to build it or do all the work, because what does the student learn then.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

1) We are not sponsored by any professional engineering company's, just local companies who are willing to help us out.

2) After I graduate, if I do come back, I will not put a single nut or bolt on the robot. This is a highschool club and it will continue to be, I should not even do the slightest modification for the kids. Ill give them my suggestions and my input on the situation, but I wont touch the robot.

3) I don't look down on the teams that have engineers build their robots but I think that it is just unfair. There are some teams out there that have NO way of getting engineers to help them out so it is an unlevel playing field. I just dont see the point in having 20 students up in the stands while 10 grown men mess and fix the robot. Even though, I get great satisfaction when we blow out a team and 10 men run out onto the field yelling, picking up the robot and sprinting back to their pit with it.

4) The reason we don't let an adult touch our robot is because this is a HIGHSCHOOL club. If this was a community club, and any age could join, then I could understand, but this is for kids, in high school. I know that in the name, no where does it reflect that it is just for the kids, but are you really helping kids when you build a robot for them? When the kids grow up, dont you think one day they will be in the same situation again saying, man, wheres Mr. so and so, I dont know where to drill this.


Sorry if I came off to harsh, but this kind of thing really sets me off

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

You might be setting up a "false dichotomy" here. That is where you look at a situation in black and white terms, ignoring the (much more likely) middle ground.

I fully agree that having 10 adults in the pits working on the robot, and 20 students in the stands, is not a desirable situation. But I also feel that having 10 students in the pits, and one adult sitting there keeping quiet, is just as bad. Either way, there is no student-mentor interaction. How about aiming for the middle ground? Having one mentor working with perhaps 3 or 4 students at a time, discussing a robot problem, and thinking of and anylyzing ideas to fix it, can get a lot done on the robot. It also provides a valuable educational experience for both the students and the mentor.

This "either-or" mentality seems to me to be quite the opposite of what FIRST is all about. Those people who support mentor involvement with the robot design and build are not suggesting that students stay out of the process. We all know the students should be as involved with it as they can be. But students are still students, and might be wise to use the knowledge and experience of the mentors. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

FIRST is about partnerships and teamwork (as any team who has submitted a NASA grant knows). I love Woodie’s quote about the “robot being the campfire we gather around.” Mentoring is hard work, but can be one of the most meaningful experiences someone can have, for all parties involved. There is no blueprint for how to do a FIRST team, but it is always apparent by all these threads that there are a lot of mentors doing a heck of a job.
Maybe my definition is too broad but to me “100% student built” is not totally right unless the students are also doing all the fundraising, paperwork, shipping arrangements, travel, on and on. Which they are not. It takes a community to have a FIRST team, so be proud of what you have accomplished but recognize there are a lot of “non-students” who helped you get there.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

Bingo

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

I am going to reply to this a second time because I believe my first post was misunderstood. I do not come from a team nor do I want to be on a team where the robot is engineer built. I believe that a engineer working with a group of 5-10 students where he/she is "HELPING" not "TAKING OVER" is o.k. When a student is stuck and cant figure it out, if the engineer goes over to help them than that is o.k. in my opinion, as long as they dont go over snatch the part up and put it on themselves. But if the engineer walks over and gives them advice or a description of how something goes on, then thats a lot better than if they were to sit there and say well I guess he/she will figure it out themselves or go on chief delphi and post a question while I sit here. Like I said before I believe that a student will learn far less by watching an engineer do the work, but I also believe that a student will learn more by working in a group of students that is working with an engineer.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

To take it as far as calling it a community club if engineers are working with the students is just crazy. I see your point as far as a pit full of adults is concerned, but the whole point of FIRST is to spread the idea of going into a career of science and/or technology. Now if FIRST gave you the inspiration to realize that you could become an engineer, then I am glad that the way to give that inspiration back to the kids is to not even touch a bolt or nut on the robot that they are entering into the competition where everything is not level.Whether you are a team sponsored by a big time name like Delphi who gives you engineers and a healthy budget or a small business local welder who helped you in a bind with his/her expertise, the help is greatly appreciated. And if the team is a successful one in regards to the mission of FIRST then the students will go into a career where they can help level out the competition by providing their experience in the field they chose toward your problems/concerns/ideas towards your robot. I just do not see a feasible explanation as to why it would be a bad thing for an engineer to "HELP" (not take over the bot and build it to his/her taste) a team.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

No...

We aren't 100% student built. Not even 100% student assembled. Most of the assembly is done by students.

Let's see. I like the way Cody Carey layed out rough percentages of stuff that is done by mentors and students.

100% of the design is done by students.
100% of CADing is done by students.
100% of prototyping is done by students.
~90% of assembly is done by students.
~70% of programming is done by students (simply because the software team is shorthanded, there comes a time when mentors do need to step in)
Almost all in-house machining is done by mentors (don't really have the time to train kids to use the machines.)
We do have mentors look over designs to make sure they aren't outrageous.
Mentors teach us calculations of certain things.
Mentors help us solve big problems when they show up.

Yeah, I can't say we are 100% student built. Sometimes I'd like to say we are, and others I really wouldn't. Yeah, this program is intended to teach the students, but why not let the mentors have some fun? They are giving up their personal time to do this after all.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

nice perspective! :)

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

There is no instrument or tool that has been found that can measure the depth of commitment of many of our mentors to students unless it be the heart.
100%

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

I am a little nervious about joining the fray, but here is how we are working this year.

I, a student, am the person who designed the WHOLE robot. After the initial design process, I reviewed the design with 254 who graciously agreed to look at it and comment. I then fixed up some things, and went on to visit our machining sponsor. They gave me more suggestions, and I added those. The students then drew up all of the robot, and sent it off to our sponsors and mentors to be machined. Now that the parts are coming back, we the students are putting the robot together.
We work with our mentors and sponsors to check the design, and to machine it. Once the parts get back, the students get to work assembling and making the robot work. We have one machinist mentor who is helping us, but he is mostly helping file the axles he helped make and make the spacers fit. It is great to work with him, since this is the first year we have ever tried to design something in cad Before we make it.
This year, we are some what of a mix of student and mentor built, but I can say with certainty that the students are the driving force behind the design, and the mentors are just helping us get over the quirks that we are running into.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

Our team...#1666 The Nerd Herd haha...we are 99% student built. We would also we 100% student built if we had full ability to weld aluminum and run a machine that the building owners refuse to trust us with. Otherwise my small team of 17 build everything ourselves.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

I fully agree. Well put.

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

753 is kid built, however our mentors show us how to make parts and program the machines to do so...

Re: How many teams are 100% student built
 

We would be 100% if we had axcess to a machine shop that we could use the machines, the kids on our team would learn how to use a lathe or mill. Because pretty much the only tools that we have that are able to realy do any metal work is a drill press, which some times doubles as a small lathe...(dont ask!...), and a small shop band saw. other than that we design every thing and make as much as we can, and the rest is machined by one of our mentors, then we assemble everything. the mentors just push the team to think about things a little bit more and make sagestions when need be. this is the reason that main base of our bot is normaly made out of 1" bosh every year. Our work shop is a simi trailer parked on blocks behind the school. hahah it gets the job done though we have had some awsome bots come out of it! i mean the students do all the work, now that im a mentor this year its hard to keep my hands out of the robot but its awsome to step back and see what these kids are brewing up!:cool: