What will be more important?
 

Our team is thinking torque is going to be a bigger factor than speed on the robot

Re: What will be more important?
 

Depends a lot on your strategy, but if you gear for a high top speed, you may never reach it in the limited space. This is one of the advantages of a multi-speed transmission

Re: What will be more important?
 

While this is true, if you have enough torque, by addition of motors, you can have all the advantages of a multi-speed transmission in a single speed transmission geared for speed higher speed. There are several big name teams who run single speed transmissions and do well with it year after year.

Re: What will be more important?
 

i think both have there their advantages.

speed will help you get from tube to rack while torque will give you the power you need to stand your ground while scoring a tube

Re: What will be more important?
 

you know we asked our selfs this question at the end of last year and we came up with a good answer . . both.

this was also the answer we came up with when asked whats better maneuverability or traction.

but if you only can pic one I would say maneuverability and speed they cant block you if they cant touch you.

Re: What will be more important?
 

Many teams do not realize this until it's too late: if you do not gear low enough, you might have the finest top speed in the world but your robot will work terribly. A four wheel drive geared too high will never turn (save usage of ominwheels). But even still, some robots, particularly in games with frequent changes in acceleration (as this game will probably have) manage to keep the fuses warm just by driving them and they quickly break as soon as they stall.

I speak from experience with a drivetrain last year, that following the breakdown of it's planned 6 wheel/tread drive and conversion to 4 wheel drive, suffered these very problems. Omniwheels let it finally turn, but nothing could stop it from popping breakers frequently. And this was only at a 1:2 gear up from the kit transmission. To be fair there probably were other things wrong besides the gearing. :)

Re: What will be more important?
 

I think it depends on whether you consider your robot to be a defencive or offence and what ours strategy, because both torque and speen have advantages withing different strategys.

Re: What will be more important?
 

I think the best defense this year is a good quick offense. Early land grabs will be key.

Re: What will be more important?
 

Remember how easy it was to shoot last year even while other robots were jostling you around?

I am sure precisely moving an arm to place an object onto an object you can't see clearly because you're looking through a giant piece of metal and PVC while being bumped by a robot who's drivers have a clear view will be even easier!

Just my $.02...

Re: What will be more important?
 

one thing we implemented last year to allow us to hold our position was a pnumatic breaking system. we had two vertically mounted pistons that would push out with a grippy pad at the end of them. These were verry efective in keeping us motionless. when we had these deployed, only teams with treads were able to move us. the enture system weighed only about 6 pounds (not including compressor and tanks) and didnt take up much room either. the system even won us the delphi driving technology award. as our mentor/college student/team alum Gui Calvalcanti says : you guys need to realize that anything is possible, you just dont know how to do it.

so in conclusion, if your goal is t place tubes not block others from placing them, being quick to get where you want to be first, and then deploying a breaking system to keep you there while you place your tube can make you a very effective robot.

Re: What will be more important?
 

I agree with what many others have said, that speed is important for getting to the rack, but torque will be essential in defensive situations and ramping.

With that in mind, our team is using both small CIMS w/ bane-bots transmissions and the large cims to optimize our ratios.

As a scoring bot, we're looking to have a high top speed.

Re: What will be more important?
 

it'll definitely be interesting to see how this game plays out. Last year's game was one of the few ones that everything we expected about game play turned out to be true; this year we've got no idea what will happen.:ahh:

Re: What will be more important?
 

I believe speed is always important in every FIRST game.

2002 - Who could get to the goals the fastest?
2003 - Who could get to the stack or the ramp the fastest?
2004 - Who could hang the fastest?
2005 - Who could could score tetras the fastest?
2006 - Who could reload or shoot the fastest?

Torque is not important in all games however.

2002 - Who could hold onto their goals the best?
2003 - Who could stay on top of the ramp the best?
2004 - Umm....
2005 - Err....
2006 - Who could stay in place to shoot the best?

I can't really think of a game where a slow, strong robot won overall.

I believe, in this game, the fastest, most maneuverable robot will prevail. Being able to score where you want before the opponent has a chance to is very important. Especially since you can't take goals and you can't de-score.

Re: What will be more important?
 

As Barry said, the mist important thing to do is quickly grab as many rungs as possible. But after that point, it's essential that you are capable of defending long rows from spoiling. Any ring on the side of the rack, or even worse- on your opponent's side- will need alot of effort to keep from being spoiled.

Re: What will be more important?
 

Where is the option for both?

Take a look at Team 71's 2002 robot. =)

Re: What will be more important?
 

i didnt think about that until now, i dont think i can change the poll though

Re: What will be more important?
 

71 ran to the goal on wheels, then clamped on and did the whole "This 800 pound conglomerate of robots and goals is going to our zone" deal. Not that it really mattered, probably Beatty could've "walked" all the way but they may not have made it to their own zone in 2 minutes. Their arms pretty much covered the field. I wish I lived in Hammond...

And in 2004, pushing power was important. Mobile goals under ball drops were very, very nice things to have. :D

Re: What will be more important?
 

an interesting point one of our alum/mentor/college students brought up is that in a first game, when you are going for speed, you are also going for acceleration. the field is pretty tiny, and considering the rack is in the very middle, your robot does not have much space to get up to speed if its super fast. building a light robot that can accelerate quickly, even if it has a slower top speed, can make the difference and get you there first. our robot this year looks like it is going to be 20 pounds or so underweight, so we are debating whether to leave it underweight and acclerate quickly (the get there faster option) or add a pnumatic braking system like our last years robot (the stay there longer option). there are clear advantages to both, so its a hard choice to make. i think everyone can agree that speed is key for the scoring bots though.

i kind of have a question to ask too, if noone minds. In this years game, assuming each alliance has two good scorers and one bot thats more defense/ramp, will the rack be able to fill up copmletely before the end of the game? do you think that the rack could theoretically be full with 30-45 seconds left and then its just alot of mooving spoilers around? if this is the case then the strategy changes, because now it the key is keeping your ringers not scoring more, which means you need torque and the ability to push. just something to think about....

Re: What will be more important?
 

Speed. If you question me you get a 10 point penalty. :eek:

Re: What will be more important?
 

If a team beat them to the goals, what happened then?

Re: What will be more important?
 

I personally think speed will be better, just because if you can get the ringers up fast enough, as long as no one's focusing just on you, you're going to get points up quicky. Sort of like the Triplets last year with their robots, if you left them open for one second they were able to score their entire hoard on you.

Re: What will be more important?
 

The ultimate answer is a two-speed transmission. However, overall I am going to say that speed will probably be more important because getting where you want to very quickly will allow you to carry out any stategies you have more effectively.

Re: What will be more important?
 

Speed to me is important but not as important as torque. If you can make a robot go fast, IMO* its like saying "catch me if you can," and whenever the fast bot is caught it gets beat up because it can not stand its ground. Although you should be able to be fast and agile to be able to deflect a defensive maneuver by the other team, I believe that you should be able to stand your ground. This is what I learned last year when watching some of the regionals and comparing it to a match or two of our own robot. That although we were fast, we got pushed around in key spots where if we had a little more power, we would have been able to make some big plays.

Of course this is me, and many of my peers disagree, but I think torque > speed.

Pavan.

*In My Opinion

Re: What will be more important?
 

They latched on and dragged you with them.

Re: What will be more important?
 

i think we are focusing more on torque because we dont want to be pushed around when we try to score

Re: What will be more important?
 

Torque and manueverability. Torque for winning a pushing match, and manueverabilty for the precision driving to score on the rack.

I'd only say speed for quickness from/to the loading station or wall where the tubes are located.

Re: What will be more important?
 

My crystal ball tells me that many teams will give up on offense and concentrate on defense. It will be much easier to get in the way than score a ringer. Torque will rule in the middle game. Speed will be the winner in the end game. I feel many teams will spend the last 30 to 45 seconds of a match attempting to get off the ground. The final points scored in the match for raising a bot will win most matches. The few teams who can score in auto will be in demand for the finals.

Ken

Re: What will be more important?
 

Hands down you gotta give this years game to speed:

When you are "gearing for torque" with your robot, you are asking to do one thing...push other robots around so you don't get pushed around. Over my 6 years of FIRST I've come to the conclusion that pushing matches are THE BIGGEST waste of time. Ive taught our drivers that if you're approaching a team on the field, and it looks like its gonna end up as a pushing match, turn around and go the other way because all youa re doing is wasting time.

I would much rather be the team that can run all over the place without anyone catching me. If a team is blocking 1 leg, backup, get around them, and score on a different leg, and then get out of there. There is nothing to gain from aimlessly pushing people around.

People say the best offense is a good defense, but really, the best offense is forcing the other team to play defense because once they're not trying to score, they're not scoring. I'm not saying every robot thats "torqued out" is playing defense, but defensive bots tend to be the powerhouse drivetrains that can slap people around.

Just my 2 cents..

Re: What will be more important?
 

Ah yes....the 'Beaty Shuffle' brings me back to my rookie year....but you know, while they were slow, before they completly revammed their drive train (and lost a bit of power in the process) they could easily be turned, a feat which the good old seniors of old demonstrated to the world at...I think it was the West Michigan Regional, but I'm not quite sure...memmories a little fuzzy.

Re: What will be more important?
 

I believe speed will eventually be better, just because I think that eventually the ringers will be the biggest factor in the game (note that eventually means by the playoffs of the Championship, I'm willing to bet ramp robots will dominate most of the early Regionals and possibly beyond that). I hope speed is better, our drive system is banking on it.

Re: What will be more important?
 

I vote for the missing: mobility. There is a lot of open space out there, but the real deciding factor is manuevering around the rack.

I voted for speed because of the quick rush to the end, but if mobility were an option, i'd vote for that.