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Scott Wolfe 13-08-2001 16:53

The Future of Nationals
 
There was some discussion at the team forum about how to do Nationals in the future. I would be curious to hear what everyone thinks. The concern from FIRST was that Disney is running out of space and resources (ie. already have biggest temporary ampatheater and tent ever constructed by them) and the competition will grow, how do we continue to do nationals? Some suggestions were:
1. Based on last years performance you get selected to go to nationals this year.
2. Qualification for nationals from how you did this year.
3. Leave it open as in years past and let Disney deal with it.
Obviously there are pros and cons to each. What are additional thoughts as well as your pros and cons on the above?

Andrew Rudolph 13-08-2001 17:23

I'd like to sewe what Disney has planned, I think possibly a multi-park event would work. Also somthing sorta like the olympics where we take over a town would be kool.

Andrew

Christina 13-08-2001 17:45

Well, really, the biggest concern is where to put finals. I mean, there's plenty of room to put up more tents or set up more playing fields if need be and fairly easy as well. But, it really comes down to where they will put everyone for finals. It is very difficult to set up a bigger theatre for finals. As far as making it a multi-park event, it would be a pain to transport robots from one park to the next for finals. And you wouldn't get to see how any of the other divisions are doing. Plus, EPCOT's parking lot is definitely big enough to set up more tents. And even with multi-park events, we still have the same problem of where to put everyone for the finals.

Well, those are just my thoughts.

~Christina ºoº

Adrian Wong 13-08-2001 18:52

Perhaps abandoning the amphitheater style setup and going with something like a stadium layout? Instead of a 160 - 180 degree viewing angle, you can have a complete 360 degree wraparound seating arrangement, with the field centered at the middle. With a large enough field area, you could even have the division fields in the center, with passageways radiating out to separate tents for each division.

Viewers get to see all the matches. Teams have more personal space in their division tent, yet still have easy access to the central staging area.

Jessica Boucher 13-08-2001 19:59

About finals...
 
...I personally think that finals is merely a transportation problem for FIRST/EPCOT, and not a capacity issue. If future finals are anything like this years, they will be rather sparse.

The capacity issue comes into play during the awards. Transportation is an issue here, too...but by then you'd only be transporting people....by that time you could have all the non-finals crates packed up, and Mears is doing a great job already with people-moving.

You know, I just had a thought (stand back, it may be strange)...maybe Disney is the thing holding us back with this "competition in the round" type deal. It may not be an issue of bleacher space at all, it may just be that there is no space to put all the stuff that goes WITH the stage, such as all the electronics, the production trailer, and the "Disney Entertainment" trailer, not to mention the catwalks and the VIP area, without blocking any more viewer vision.

Maybe the answer to this is...how has "competition in the round" been settled at regionals, and how can that be adapted to Nationals?

Plus, please dont reply with your gripes about how the stage is set up, and why theres so much space for the media & the VIPs...lets work towards a solution this time.

ColleenShaver 13-08-2001 21:16

I still think what I like best is an idea brought up at the NH forum (by the T157 folks I believe):

Do a 'National' on each coast... afterall, we're not utilizing the fact that 'Disneyland' is on the other coast and could maybe use a little popularization by a mass attendence of people.

Two nationals would slightly regionalize the pack.. but the option could still exist to go to either and ways to prioritize who gets to go where could all be figured in. This would all us to cut the attendence at each event to half of what it is at Disney currently, giving us the room to double the # of teams before running into this sort of problem again.

It also somewhat brings up the stress that Nationals aren't about "going to Disneyworld" (though it's fun) and start to take the 'stress' of nationals. This way, we could get to what FIRST sees as the future... when regionals are the Place-to-be and nationals, if they still exist, and be restricted entrance by performace because everyone will have equal access to regionals.

.. and on the 2 nationals.. the winner of each meet at a place specified by FIRST to play it out... i think it's about time FIRST go back to the WasingtonDC and strut our stuff.. why not have the "World Series" of FIRST at a world capital.

I think it's the best idea I've heard since slicing bread and I think qualifying for nationals can't really happen until a few years down the road.

As for the multi-park competition... a couple of dislikes.. if that is the case, why waste the cash on Disney and just hold 4 'mini-nationals' around the country.. at least divisions as they stand are in a single place and anyone can easily access and see other teams in other divisions.. (my two old teams where both in different divisions from myself.. and I wouldn't have been able to see either of them).. and then sure, play the finals on one field.. but when you are trying to focus on winning a National, who wants to be trying to repack then unpack all there stuff for transport from MGM to Epcot..

I mean, I hate having to get on the bus and get from one park to another.. never mind trying to pack my pit, my 'bot, my spirit stuff, and my team and get them there and reset-up!

my thoughts :)

Leon Machado IV 13-08-2001 23:29

I think the two nationals is crazy. I was at that forum in NH and saw the reaction from both the FIRST members and the forum members.

I think Disney has to give us more lean-way. They want us to stop growing and we all know that Dean and the Board of Directors would never let that happen. We have to negotiate with Disney and find something that is mutually benefitial for both of us. I mean, I crunched some rough numbers and I figured the three days the competition happens, we make Disney at least $6,000,000 (6 millions dollars) gross profit. Probably more. If we continue to increase in size, we continue to line their pockets with more and more money. I'm sure a settlement can be reached, but it's only we both sides come to the table with clear thoughts and will listen to the other side. We're benefitial to each other, we just have to listen.

OK, that's enough of my speal. Go onto your lives (if you have one).

EddieMcD 14-08-2001 11:15

Quote:

when regionals are the Place-to-be and nationals, if they still exist, and be restricted entrance by performace because everyone will have equal access to regionals.
The problem with that is trying to make hotel reservations for nationals. It's tough enough trying to make reservatios in January. Try making them 2 weeks before because you don't know if you're going or not.

Leon Machado IV 14-08-2001 13:23

Exactly!!!!

Andy Baker 14-08-2001 14:21

Ask the Little Leaguers
 
Quote:

Originally posted by EddieMcD

The problem with that is trying to make hotel reservations for nationals. It's tough enough trying to make reservatios in January. Try making them 2 weeks before because you don't know if you're going or not.

About having two different Nationals, and having the finals in someplace like Washinton DC... I think that's a great idea, and it can be done.

Making travel reservations would not be that tough... the harder thing would be to get the students out of school for the additional time of a National Finals in someplace like Washington DC.

For this option there real choice would be when the have the DC Finals.

It could take place two weeks after the Disney-Nationals. Teams can do the travel planning... if you think they can't, ask all of those Little Leaguers in Williamsport PA next week. And none of them are sponsored by corporations, just by parents and communities.

Getting the students out of class for another 3-4 days would be tougher than the money.

A better solution would be to wait until school is out for the DC Finals. This extra time would provide these things:
1. Gives teams a chance to plan their trips
2. Gives FIRST staff a chance to breathe after the Disney-Nationals.
3. Gives more attention to the teams who are going to the finals (community and Nationwide).

Andy B.

Matt Leese 14-08-2001 14:39

The problem with too long of a delay is that people will loose interest. If you want to do finals like that, it needs to happen a very short amount of time afterwards. Actually, 4v0 could benefit this as there's no need for the teams to be in the same location.

Matt

EddieMcD 14-08-2001 16:47

Yes, but didn't FIRST say it was going to be a competition this year?

Quote:

It could take place two weeks after the Disney-Nationals. Teams can do the travel planning... if you think they can't, ask all of those Little Leaguers in Williamsport PA next week. And none of them are sponsored by corporations, just by parents and communities.
That might be true, but you have to remember that the hotels in Disney and other places nearby are going to be populated during the nationals not only by FIRSTers, but people wanting to go to Disney (and that's a lot). Williamsport hotels probably will populated only by people who are going to see the World Series.

On the side, a little league team from upstate RI plays tonight for the trip to Williamsport. :)

David Kelly 14-08-2001 20:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Matt Leese
The problem with too long of a delay is that people will loose interest. If you want to do finals like that, it needs to happen a very short amount of time afterwards. Actually, 4v0 could benefit this as there's no need for the teams to be in the same location.

Matt


who are you saying that will loose interest? i certainly won't. i feel that it would pump me up even more

Carolyn Duncan 14-08-2001 22:16

Ok, here goes. I'm gonna try to respond to what everyone has posted and add my $0.02.
Andrew said to multi park the event, not gonna happen well. Moving the teams, robots, tools, and other pit stuff isn't gonna work. The teams will be unprepared for their matches due to the inability to scout, this year is supposed to be competition again. The idea of taking over a town like the Olympics would be great. One problem, what town? FIRST isn't as big as the Olympics so what town would allow us to take over? It would have to be near FIRST HQ, which many people have said they don't want to be up north for nationals.
Adrian, I'm liking the 360 idea. That makes sense to me, I wondered why they didn't do that last year when I saw the setup, I was a rookie so I didn't realize that's how it's been forever.
Jessica's comment about Disney holding us back is really accurate. There are ways for Disney to setup all their stuff without it being in the way. They could lay fake flooring over wires onthe ground and duct tape them down under that. Setup a booth behind the stands, like a sky box at a pro game.
Colleen, I'm thinking that having events at both Disney parks would be like multi parking in Orlando, except that this would put a definate riff betweeen the 2 coasts. Sorta like splitting between AFC and NFC. There would be a split that would defeat the purpose of getting everyone together at nationals.
Leon brought up that Disney wants us to stop growing, yet our homework assignment this year was to increase the number of college teams. Go figure. I cannot believe that we are a financial burden on Disney as was pointed out be Leon's figures; 6 million in their pockets is about the profits of a movie, not so bad for 3 days versus a year.
Eddie's point about hotels is huge. We can all go and fill up the Disney hotels if there is vacancy but they would most likely be filled anyway. Which is better, having plans of these roome being filled by FIRSTers and counting on the money or speculation? Personally, I'd bet on the sure thing.
Andy suggested finals in DC. This is a possibility but I personally would not want to be in a prime target area with diplomats everywhere. I used to live there, there are many places you don't wanna be. Before people start telling me that that is the situation in most cities I'll say this: it's not isolated parts of the city that are bad it's every street corner. Any street you cross you have to hope that a diplomat doesn't wanna run the red light and execise his diplomatic imunity. You will get run over in DC if you're not exceptionally carefull. DC is really not the best place to have a competition like that with a large volume of people. Don't get me wrong I love the city, I miss living there sometimes. Then I think about the crap and it makes me glad I don't live there anymore.
Matt, teams wouldn't loose interest in the competition but any hopes of media coverage would be shot. The delay would force media to schedule for multiple events which could put thestrain on thecoverage. It would be very little coverage and nothing good.
As for my thoughts, I'll try to be brief. I think we need to figure out a way to have the competition with everyone there. Suggestions have been made to buy an old football stadium. Sounds good to me, especially if the city has hosted a Super Bowl. This would mean plenty of hotel space and capacity to hold everyone. I am not pushing the idea of dopping Disney but if they are unwilling to suport our growth how can we stay with them? It is possible for Disney to work with us a bit more than they seem to be. Mybe it's time to get out of the parking lot and move into something a bit more permanent. There is another discusion about this going on in the national competition forum, I recomend reading that too. Sorry for writing a novel but I hope this covers everything.

ColleenShaver 15-08-2001 00:31

Well a couple things-

Despite what everyone thinks- Disney doesn't need us, the exact hassle, or the exact groups of kids annoying other patrons to stay afloat or anything. We come during a very busy season for them and I'm sure if we picked a less popular season to hold our competition, nothing would be as big of a deal.

But we do it in April. And doing it in April, this is what we have.

Basically, at this point there are a couple options.. all of which involve ditching the 'everybody get together' at Nationals concept. Because I just don't see the multi-park as happen because it would be such a huge nuisance to get those teams moved and resettled just for the final matches. It seems rather ridiculous.. and I think we're better to play those last matches elsewhere.

As for planning in two weeks: well, I gotta go with Andy B there and say that planning travel for WashingtonDC or something wouldn't be very hard. And FIRST could even reserve Xrooms for each team that would be attending and the teams could just pay FIRST for them. Then the online thing to worry about is airfare.. and well, travelling to Orlando is totally different than going to most places.. it's a hopping destination no matter when...

And I totally agree.. 2 week planning and reservation for Disney would be nearly impossible.. and that is why regionals can't be qualifiers for Nationals.. cause that logistic just wouldn't work... and teams at earlier regionals would have a major advantage.

I think no matter what happens.. nationals won't work as this big, happy, 'let's get together' social event.... but it can still be big, happy, beneficial, and fun for all those who have the opportunity to participate.

And everyone should have that opportunity.

Mike S. 15-08-2001 01:05

I think the idea of DisneyWorld and a DisneyLand Nationals is awesome. There might be cons to it, but think of the pros, it certainly gives Disney World some breathing room, and i don't think it would be like a multi-park event.
To have two nationals, one at the east coast and one at the west coast, would utilize the fact that FIRST stretches all over the US, and if FIRST keeps growing by leaps and bounds, such as it has been, then FIRST is going to run into problems, because then DISNEY is definitely going to say no, because they won't have the personnel or the man strength to handle the size of the Nats, and i don't think Dean or anyone at FIRST HQ would like to limit Nats, i would think they would want it to grow, and having two big nationals would definitely show that it has grown.
Also, think of a National Finals in (i think somebody said DC) that would be even greater. A competition in our nations capital would be sure to catch some attention.
I realize i have only been in the program a couple of years, but i think someone is going to have to come up with a solution of FIRST's popularity and growth, so no one gets shut out of something like Nats because we are to big, that would be horrible. It's just my opinion that this way of nationals would be a cool alternative.

That’s my opinion, i would like to hear what people think.
MIke

Matt Leese 15-08-2001 08:49

Quote:

Originally posted by colleen-t190

As for planning in two weeks: well, I gotta go with Andy B there and say that planning travel for WashingtonDC or something wouldn't be very hard. And FIRST could even reserve Xrooms for each team that would be attending and the teams could just pay FIRST for them. Then the online thing to worry about is airfare.. and well, travelling to Orlando is totally different than going to most places.. it's a hopping destination no matter when...

DC wouldn't be exactly the best place to hold nationals (or finals or whatever). We'll start first with the fact that there isn't any arenas or sports stadiums inside of DC. There are also no large buildings (no building can be higher than the capital) which cuts down on hotels. A good portion of DC isn't the nicest area because of crime. So that basically leaves you outside of the city if you want to be in the area. And I don't even want to get started on traffic. Let's just say I made the mistake of driving in DC rush hour traffic once and I don't intend to do it again.

Matt

Madison 15-08-2001 10:31

Here I go again. . .
 
Okay...first thing to get out of the way.

Disneyland can not support a National Competition, or half of one, or anything remotely close. Land in Anaheim is at a premium, and DL is landlocked (The reason that the WDW property is 47 sq. mi.) . . . California Adventure sits in Disneyland's former parking lot. There's no room there. Nada.

A stadium or theater in the round arrangement for the finals seems to be the easiest and most realistic alternative. Perhaps FIRST can design a game with this in mind? The competition from the past few years doesn't really allow for any sort of spectator viewings from the ends. . .maybe a round or octagonal field?

There's one big hurdle in that plan. . . cover. Having a centrally located stage makes setting up the A/V and lighting systems hard enough. But, don't forget. . .the Main Stage needs to be covered from the rain! I think everyone's overlooking that. So, that means someone's got to erect some sort of roof over the stage, but that roof has to be high enough so that everyone can see under it. Can you see how things get a bit hairy now? That roof is a big deal.

So... with that in mind, does anyone have any suggestions?

If I get really bored at work today, maybe I'll do some research into the convention facilities at the Contemporary Resort. They're huge. . .I know that much. Perhaps we can be housed there? It's only a short walking distance from the Magic Kingdom (and the backstage entrance to Tomorrowland)

Jessica Boucher 15-08-2001 12:11

I totally agree with you on this one, Michael; I think you clarified what I said in an earlier post.

Yes, what can be done? Come on, we're all engineers here (in some way or form ;) )

Mike S. 15-08-2001 13:39

After re-reading all the posts, it seems that people aren't talking about what was stated in the original post. To all those people that are talking about how the stage is setup or where the competition could be located in WDW, that isn't the problem. The problem is that FIRST and the nationals are getting way to big and Disney doesn't have enough man power to handle FIRST, I think someone else mentioned the fact that we hold nationals in April which is a very busy time for Disney, which is also very true.

I think the problem that should be concerning everyone is how can we make it so that everyone that wants to attend nationals can and not limit nationals because we are too big. Someone, I think Scott, mentioned some possibilities such as, based on last years or this years performance. I think that is very opposite of what FIRST is trying to do, its limiting teams based on their robot performance, and in my opinion if your team builds a robot and its able to move an inch then you deserve to be in nationals just as much as anyone else, and that’s what first is all about, learning and having fun, not to go out and win win win.

Also, so people mentioned the possible amount of money Disney profited, The Disney Corporation in general makes hundreds of millions if not maybe billions a day from their customers, I don't think $6 million is that much to them.

This is my opinion.
Mike

Matt Leese 15-08-2001 14:04

Just a bit of a clarification. That would be $6,000,000 in revenue, not profit. They are very different things. This assumes approximately $350 per person to Disney times 17,000 people.

Matt

Carolyn Duncan 15-08-2001 15:03

Mike, I think that our talk of how to set things up for more people is trying to solve Disney's problem. They claim to not be able to set up with enough space for all of us. If we can come up with a way for all of us to be there then Disney will have options. Get it or am I way out there somewhere? As far as the 6 million dollars... Well, there's more that goes with that. Besides us staying in their hotels some people have parents go with them, some people buy park tix, everyone buys food, and the team party. All of this adds to the collection. They also get tax write offs for having us there. While I understand that is only a percentage back, it's still a good size chunck. The bottom line is whether or not Disney is willing to work with us. To me it is becoming increasingly evident that they are not.
Just my thoughts...

EddieMcD 15-08-2001 15:40

Disney said that if we come, they'll build it. So, lets hold them to their word.

Mike S. 15-08-2001 15:52

It isn't the fact that Disney isn't working with us, I think disney has done an excellent job accomidating us. Its the fact that they don't have enough personell, also having all those extra busses flowing through their property during busy season, doesn't help either.

Some people are listing seperate places we can hold nationals, such as multi-parking, but, i don't think space is the problem becasue look at all the extra parking lots EPCOT has.

Our homework assignment was to increase the number of teams, and i think everyone is going to see that has happen, but with more teams comes a problem, if we let nationals keep going at the rate it is, Disney is going to say no more teams we can't handle it. Thats where i see the problem, and i think that's where Scott sees it also, pertaining to his orginal post. Also, Colleen the idea of two nationals would help greatly by reducing the numbers and it would give us time before we have to deal with this sort of an issue again. It would certianly give Disney a break.

I personally wouldn't like to see teams, shut out or have to qualify for nationals, because thats not what FIRST is about.
I also think nationals isn't going to be this big happy get together because already people are stressing over it. Two nationals would cut everything in half, *colleen*, and think how easy that would make things. If everyone takes time and thinks about a two national deal, with a national finals, being held somewhere, i think alot of people will see many pros to it.

Mike

ColleenShaver 15-08-2001 16:10

I think one of the first things we all need to understand is that.. no matter what you think.. Disney doesn't need us..

and, no matter what you think, we NEED Disney.. It's high profile.. it's a great selling point.. and I think with the right touches and convincing by the right people, Disney will be the way we break onto National TV and really start to get FIRST out to everyone.

And yes, as stated by Patrick at the forums "There is plenty of parking lot left" .... that's true. But as much as we like to complain about them, Disney puts in A LOT of time and personal in that arena and running the show and there might just not be the people to put it on. And seating on the big stage.. it's nearly impossible to get many more in..

In the end- look at this.. the majority of the people in FIRST probably would never visit Disney on their own if it wasn't for the competition.. I've been 6 times but never would have gone and prolly will never go without FIRST (lack of $$ not desire ;-)).. Disney has to remember their other customers too.. cause they are the ones that come back annually and regularly and they are the ones that keep Disney up and running, not us. And I'm sorry, but I'd hate to be one of those customers when FIRST is around.. because I've seen how loud and obnoxious some people on my own teams have been and I can't imagine being a family w/ small children around them. Just look how everyone over runs the pool and the buses between parks, etc. It's a bit much sometimes... with 10,000~ high schoolers, it's to be expected I guess.. but the happiest place on earth has to try to keep EVERYONE happy, not just us..

Disney is working w/ us.. so don't everyone jump on the "disney doesn't want this.." and "disney won't do this.." bandwagon because it just isn't logical to me..

more than my two cents.. but oh well. :)

Mike S. 15-08-2001 16:16

Exactly, thats what i was trying to say, i am glad somebody views the same points as me.

Mike

Jeff Waegelin 15-08-2001 22:17

My $0.02
 
The only problem with FIRST reserving rooms is team size. What happens to a large team that exceeds the allotted rooms? What do you do with small teams that don't use all their space? The obvious solution would be to give extra rooms to large teams except there are not enough really small teams to offset the really large teams.

I love the idea of having split nationals with a "Finals" competition based on performance, but I think that the logistical implications of such a move make any gains from such a move moot. It is all but impossible to make hotel and airfare plans for a family at short notice, let alone for a team of 30+ people.

Now..... If you space out the nationals and finals, you run into a third problem. Lack of excitement. If you don't wait long enough, you have scheduling and logistics problems. If you wait too long, you run the risk of diminished enthusiasm. Part of the thrill of the competition is in the frantic scramble from the final build week to nats. The constant rush to get ready, compete, repair, and compete again keeps the excitement going. If you wait until June to have the finals, teams in the finals get bored, and teams not in the finals lose interest, especially if the game is not as fun to watch. I for one would have found it hard to watch a finals competition this summer (Especially considering the domination of a certain team....). It just wasn't that fun, and one to two month's waiting would have killed the enthusiasm of Nationals.

So, now that I've given my $0.02 on the matter, i ask this: What could be done to make a split Nats (with or without Finals) as exciting as the current model, with the fewest problems?

Jeff Waegelin 15-08-2001 22:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Matt Leese
This assumes approximately $350 per person to Disney times 17,000 people.
$350? I would have to say it's more than that. I mean, a one-day ticket to Disney costs at least $40. You throw in multi-day passes, hotels on-site (for many of the teams), souvenirs, and food for a bunch of teenagers, and you get a lot more than 350 bucks a head.

ColleenShaver 15-08-2001 23:04

Well- let's think about it for a minute--

if you were a part of one of the two alliances to travel to Nationals, there would definitely be no excitement loss.. it would be great opportunity to promote FIRST and build excitement in your and surrounding communities..

As for everyone else losing interest.. it's basically being said that teams lose interest in FIRST after Nats.. which is totally untrue.. look how much talk went on about all the comps.. even the A&E special that aired. Imagine if the National Finals held on the lawn of the Whitehouse were being broadcast on TV.. you can't tell me these forums wouldn't be hopping w/ comments from all you close-to-1000 posters!

And we're talking about FIRST reserving rooms to accommodate (sp?) 4-6 teams only. They could even limit each team to a certain number of team members (something like $30). It's not like we're talking making it elementory for nationals and suddenly 2 weeks before the competition, 300 teams are trying to make reservations for travel to Disney. That's exactly the problem I'm trying to toss out ideas to prevent

Carolyn Duncan 15-08-2001 23:48

Well, Jeff, I don't think there is a way to make the split nationals as exciting as non split. There is one simple reason, nationals now is more exciting based on the numbers. You get more electricity from a larger group. You also get the feeling of winning something in front of everyone who participated in the competition. That's a huge feeling. And having all those people cheering for you is beyond anything else imaginable.
And as for limiting the number of people a team can take with them is awful. I can understand eliminating the "Florida club" that everyteam is plagued with but not eliminating hard working members of the team. In many cases it would be the animation team that would be eliminated from attending. That's not right, I won't even say fair because life's not fair but FIRST should be based on Gracious Professionalism.

Mike S. 16-08-2001 00:08

Carolyn, FIRST isn't about winning at all, it’s about showing students what the field of engineering and technology and design is all about. If FIRST wanted they could send gold medals to all the teams, to show that everyone is a winner as long as you learned and had fun. As far as limiting goes, FIRST is never going to limit anything, as a matter of fact limiting is the exact opposite of what first mission statement is. This is why we have to come up with a solution to the size of nationals, where every team that wants to can attend a national competition.

Quote:

You also get the feeling of winning something in front of everyone who participated in the competition. That's a huge feeling. And having all those people cheering for you is beyond anything else imaginable.
You shouldn't get this feeling from winning; you should get it because you learned something and because FIRST has opened doors to a whole new world for you.

Mike

ColleenShaver 16-08-2001 00:09

It's not size that matters [slight split from topic]
 
I hate to be posting so much on one subject.. but oh well...

I don't think it's necessarily 'numbers' that create the excitement in any competition...

Ask most of the people I know, they would say that they think a regional competition is better then Nationals anyday. I feel completely the same. Nationals is a little much in my opinion. Awe-striking, sure.. but too big to run into or even find easily people you know and spend some quality times playing with and against their team like you get at regionals.

And the atmosphere at regionals.. I'd say is more intense than virtually any match at Nationals unless you are in that pit in front of the stage for the finals.. and that about matches the excitement of every minute at most regionals I've been to.

That's why many teams are content with just going to regionals.. don't get me wrong, I love the trip to Disney.. but for competition purposes... i would take a regional over nationals any day of the week.

It's not the numbers that make the competition, it's the spirit, determination, and focus of the numbers you do have.

The first national I attended only had 74 teams and it was good and exciting and it just felt like a little bigger regional. 300+ is cool, but it just doesn't give me the adrenaline rush of regionals.

Carolyn Duncan 16-08-2001 00:21

First of all, I realize that FIRST is about exploring the capabilities of science and technology. But the fact remains that enjoying wining is part of competing. Anytime you compete you try to win. That's not to say that's the only thing you do. Last year I went to nationals knowing that there was no way my team would do very well at all in terms of standings but that didn't stop me from going and having fun. If winning isn't a big thing in FIRST then why are there standings? It's because there is a competition.
Colleen, what if you're a west coast team and you have friends on east coast teams? If there are fewer people at nationals there is a better chance that the people you know won't be there anyway. I don't know many teams that would go across the country for a regional competition. Don't get me wrong, I love regionals too, but the magnitude is what makes nationals different from regionals. It wouldn't be the same without all of the people there. It would be like skipping to the final four of the NCAA tournament and skipping all the games at the beginning of the tourney.

Carolyn Duncan 16-08-2001 00:22

First of all, I realize that FIRST is about exploring the capabilities of science and technology. But the fact remains that enjoying wining is part of competing. Anytime you compete you try to win. That's not to say that's the only thing you do. Last year I went to nationals knowing that there was no way my team would do very well at all in terms of standings but that didn't stop me from going and having fun. If winning isn't a big thing in FIRST then why are there standings? It's because there is a competition.
Colleen, what if you're a west coast team and you have friends on east coast teams? If there are fewer people at nationals there is a better chance that the people you know won't be there anyway. I don't know many teams that would go across the country for a regional competition. Don't get me wrong, I love regionals too, but the magnitude is what makes nationals different from regionals. It wouldn't be the same without all of the people there. It would be like skipping to the final four of the NCAA tournament and skipping all the games at the beginning of the tourney. It takes away for the build up of finals because there are fewer matches to go through before the final match.

Mike S. 16-08-2001 00:48

Quote:

Last year I went to nationals knowing that there was no way my team would do very well at all in terms of standings
You went with the wrong frame of mind. Like I said, and I am sure colleen would back me up, is the fact FIRST could send out medals to every team, showing them they are all winners.

FIRST is not a competition about winning, its about showing people what amazing things students come up, when they are given certain standards to follow, i.e. the kit parts, dimensions, etc.
And it’s about showing students, science and technology, and how exciting things can be, and to show an individual what their minds can come up with.

And a question for thought, Would you like to know your friends were at a competition on the opposite coast or couldn't compete at all because Nats had to become limited because of the number of teams? I hope you would go with, an answer of them competing on the opposite coast.

This is my opinion.
Mike

Mike Soukup 16-08-2001 01:25

Quote:

Originally posted by colleen-t190
As for everyone else losing interest.. it's basically being said that teams lose interest in FIRST after Nats.. which is totally untrue.. look how much talk went on about all the comps.. even the A&E special that aired. Imagine if the National Finals held on the lawn of the Whitehouse were being broadcast on TV.. you can't tell me these forums wouldn't be hopping w/ comments from all you close-to-1000 posters!
Then why don't people show up and watch the finals when they're already at the competition? A lot of people here say that FIRST team members would keep their interest if 2 alliances (or maybe more if there were a small elimination bracket) faced off in DC or NH. I can't help but think back to 2001 nationals. Where was the big crowd for the finals? It didn't exist, period.

I don't remember anyone sitting in the stands, and only a few people were in the floor seats. A lot of people were in the pit in front of the stage, but most of those people were on the teams competing. I'd say 1000-2000 max were watching the finals (a pitiful 5-10% of the people). If people can't keep their interest through lunch, why would they keep their interst for a few weeks? I'd love to be proven wrong, but I don't see that happening.

So what's the solution? I've actually spent a lot of time thinking about this. I always return to my experiences in 96 as a student. Back then nationals was at a small outside ampitheater and there were only ~80 teams. It seemed more like a current regional. People were excited and people actually watched the matches, including finals. Even though 111 got second this year, and we were rookies in 96 and lucky that we could pick up and score balls, I had more fun in 96.

Unless FIRST comes up with a way to return the excitement and interest in nationals, I think we need to return to a smaller national competition based somehow on qualification.

Many people made points that limiting who goes to nationals "isn't what FIRST is about." Who from FIRST said this or where was it written by FIRST? Are people mistakingly taking their own opinions on the direction and ideals of FIRST and saying that's what FIRST stands for? (I may do the same in the next paragraph, but I'm trying my best not to)

Straight off the FIRST web site: "FIRST is here to inspire and recognize excellence in science & technology." The inspiration for students comes mainly from working closely with the engineers for the 6 week build period. Students learn the most by actually coming up with the strategy & design, and by building the robot. As far as inspiration, the competitions are icing on the cake. It's a good time to experience engineering under extreme pressure. Most of the design changes and fixes come during the first regionals. So when it comes to inspiration, which is the main goal of FIRST, nationals don't offer much more.

So what's the point of nationals? Simply put, it's to have fun, to see everyone else's bots, and to try to win the competition. I said earlier that having fun at nationals (same with regionals) is extremely important. Many students and adults wouldn't come back if the competitions were as exciting as a chess match. But the fun and excitement is available at all the regionals, and personally, I think they're much more fun than nationals.

I've heard from my sources that FIRST will begin stressing regionals more. A couple different people told me that soon (if not this year) FIRST will limit attendance at nationals to teams that compete at a regional. I don't know if these changes are because of space at Disney or if FIRST is driving the changes. (this next part isn't from any sources, but is my opinion) I can see FIRST easily making the switch from "teams that attend a regional" to "teams that meet this performance threshold" get to go to nationals. The threshold could be based on a combination of: final standing at a regional (all members of top 2 alliances), qualification standings (top 8 teams), top 50 overall qualification averages, and previous year's performance (top 4 in the nation).

So I think the solution is to emphasize regionals and use them as a way to qualify for nationals. As a result, nationals would get smaller, and I believe more exciting. FIRST needs to bring the excitement of a regional (and ~96 nationals) to current Nats.

This would also increase the level of competition; try to imagine all of the reginal winners & finalists vying for a top 8 seed during qualifying rounds, and imagine getting to pick any alliance partner without divisional restrictions. From a pure spectator standpoint (which would be good for the coveted TV exposure) this is a great format. It's like having playoffs. Just like I'd rather watch playoff football instead of regular season, I'd rather watch the best teams battle it out in a smaller competition format.

I'm sure other people have differing opinions, I'd love to hear them and continue the good discussion that we've already had in the thread.

Mike

Matt Leese 16-08-2001 08:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Waegelin


$350? I would have to say it's more than that. I mean, a one-day ticket to Disney costs at least $40. You throw in multi-day passes, hotels on-site (for many of the teams), souvenirs, and food for a bunch of teenagers, and you get a lot more than 350 bucks a head.

The packages run from about $350 per person up to about $500 per person. I didn't come up with the $6000000 number, I was just trying to explain how it was derived.

Matt

Jeff Waegelin 16-08-2001 11:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike S.
You went with the wrong frame of mind. Like I said, and I am sure colleen would back me up, is the fact FIRST could send out medals to every team, showing them they are all winners.


Isn't that what the participation medals are?

Carolyn Duncan 16-08-2001 12:43

While I appreciate you reading and quoting my posts, Mike S., I'd rather hope you'd read and quote complete thoughts.
Quote:

but that didn't stop me from going and having fun.
This is the rest of the line you quoted. As I previously stated, I realize that winning isn't the main driving force behind participating in FIRST, but it is part of competing. If you are lucky enough to be on a winning alliance/team you are extatic but that doesn't mean that you learned more than any other team.
Quote:

And a question for thought, Would you like to know your friends were at a competition on the opposite coast or couldn't compete at all because Nats had to become limited because of the number of teams? I hope you would go with, an answer of them competing on the opposite coast.
As far as teams competing on the opposite coast. Yeah, I realize that there will be regionals there that they can compete in but the point I was trying to make was that a split national would be less fun than not splitting because you wouldn't get to see all the people. Part of nationals is getting to see the people you don't see at regionals. The magnitude of nationals is part of what makes being there so much fun. What fun would it be to share ideas with other people on this forum an dnot get the chance to have a web hug and met everyone. Maybe the problem with my prvious posts is that my thoughts are not well conveyed through type.
And Mike Soukup, some of the reasons that so many people didn't go to finals last year, this is what many people told me, were because they were trying to get their pits packed up, they were disinterested in the format of the game, and because it was hard to see the field from many parts of the amphitheater. I know that there were plenty of seats for finals, I was in the floor section, but many people didn't even go check out the seat status for one or more of the afore mentioned reasons.

P.J. Baker 16-08-2001 13:30

My thoughts on the Future of Nationals
 
Here are my thoughts:

1: The National tournament should be at Disney for as long as possible

2: Teams should have to qualify for the national tournament.

3: Teams should be able to qualify through a strong showing in any of the FRC’s main components (Regionals, Chairman’s Award, Animation, etc.)

4: There should be a lot of teams at the National Competition (250+)


Issues:

1: How to resolve the qualifying vs. planning issue?

a) Long break (2 months min.) between end of regionals and Nationals

b) Qualifying for 200N Nationals based on 200(N-1) performance (with a certain # of wildcards for top regional performers, Chairman’s Award finalists, Animation finalists, etc)

This is the only way I could think to present my thoughts without writing a book. I know that there are problems (and I can even think of solutions for a couple), but I just want to put this out there and see what people think.

P.J.

Leon Machado IV 16-08-2001 13:42

The problem is that we're supposed to be around 300 or less teams traveling to the nationals. Disney wants to keep us within these confins for the space reason.

EddieMcD 16-08-2001 16:11

Quote:

a) Long break (2 months min.) between end of regionals and Nationals
Disney is only slightly busy in April. Try saying that in June. plus, a lot of schools get out in June, and there are Finals, etc. And the heat would be terrible.

P.J. Baker 16-08-2001 16:31

Quote:

Originally posted by EddieMcD


Disney is only slightly busy in April. Try saying that in June. plus, a lot of schools get out in June, and there are Finals, etc. And the heat would be terrible.


I was thinking more along the lines of moving the regional portion of the schedule to the Fall and having nationals in Jan/Feb or taking a really long break (filled in with Summer comps etc.) and having nationals in late September/early October (I realize that this would cause problems for seniors, but it is one way to do it).

In the end, I think that I prefer qualifying based on the previous year's performance with a certain percent of Wild Cards for teams that did not qualify but performed well in a regional or had a superior Chairman's Award submission.

EddieMcD 16-08-2001 17:25

Nationals in Jan./Feb. would kill finals. Nationals in Sept. would not leave any time for the kick-off or building if the regionals are in the fall.

Madison 16-08-2001 19:41

Money makes the world go 'round.
 
Perhaps I am being cynincal . . .

What's really the issue behind all of this? It's not about accomodating the growing number of teams. That can be done easily. It's not about outgrowing the physical space available at Epcot, or any Disney owned property. Epcot's huge, and it has an equally large parking lot. It's not about losing interest in a competition because there are too many competitors. . that's a result of the game, not the organization of the National Competition.

Colleen has said it again and again (perhaps in less abrasive terms). . .FIRST is a burden on Disney. It's that simple.

We occupy hotel rooms at discounted rates that could otherwise be filled with tourists. . . now, not all of them could be filled, but the hotels on WDW property tend to average about an 80% occupany rate. We require that they employ dozens, if not hundreds, of crowd control cast members that wouldn't otherwise be needed. That's extra payroll they wouldn't have without FIRST. We require that they set up those huge tents and that ampitheater and we require that they run all of that extra transportation (to hotels that are not even on Disney property, no less!)

The simple fact is that we don't make any money for Disney, and we don't do anything for Disney's PR at all. Disney is a huge corporation. . .massive beyond imagination. The FIRST National Championship means nothing to them. Nada.

Nationals will continue to grow uninhibitedly only if Disney and FIRST are willing to shell out the cash it takes to let it. That's the only condition here. It's not about designing a better stage or finding a new site. It's just about money.

What can we do about it? Well, the most obvious thing I can think is to tell FIRST that we'd be willing to pay more to go to Nats. That's the easiest solution, though I don't know what that'll do to teams whom already have tight budgets. But, if we pay more, we'll get more.

Carolyn Duncan 16-08-2001 21:35

I agree with you on the burden issue and I will restate an idea that I have said before. Maybe it's time to move on, Disney is obviously unwilling or unable, however you chose to see it, to accomodate our growing numbers. I think it would be in FIRST's best interests to have a permanent structure for nationals anyway. This would cut down on cost, it's the same principle as buying a house versus renting a house. It was mentioned in another forum that the Detroit Lions are selling their stadium. That would really be a good place to have nationals every year. We could start a gallery there, have pictures of the winning teams/alliances lining the tunnel walls. There is so much that can be done. Maybe it's time to extend our thanks to Disney and be on our way.

EddieMcD 17-08-2001 16:01

Yes, and it can hold 93,000 people. Granted, pit space will chop a lot of that up, and building the fields will eat up more, but what's left will easilly outdo the Einstein field.

Jeff Waegelin 17-08-2001 16:39

Well, granted, the Silverdome is a large building, but there are a few things to consider:

#1: Most of that space is seating. Where would you ever find the room for pit areas for the number of teams we would be talking about. Where would all the fields be? The fact of the matter is: a football stadium may hold a lot of people, but it doesn't hold a lot of things. It was designed for people to watch football on one field.

#2: The property values are tremendous. One of the major reasons for selling the stadium is the inflated price of real estate in Oakland County. The stadium property is worth millions more as industrial property than as a football stadium, so the city of Pontiac (who owns the stadium) will probably sell it as industrial property when the Lions leave.

#3: Upkeep. If FIRST is indeed able to purchase the Dome, the price to keep it in working order would be astounding. It is a 20-year old facility, and needs lots of work to keep it going. The facility is beginning to show its age, and that is one reason why the team is leaving (but not the only one).

#4 Why would anyone want to come to Detroit in the spring? There could even be a major snowstorm the weekend of Nats (not likely, but it has happened). Our lovely airport could close, and that's definitely a problem you won't have in Florida.

#5: Besides, there really isn't anything to do in Detroit, much less in Oakland County. Part of the fun of Nats is the Disney element. It may not be the only reason to go, but it is certainly a bonus that draws students into the program. If the Nationals are in Detroit, there's no "Wow this robotics thing is cool! I get to go to Disney World" factor to help draw students.

I'm sure every point I gave will be worked around if this were to happen, but this is the way I see it: The Silverdome appears to be a good idea, but the problems outweigh the few gains that would be made.

Madison 17-08-2001 23:39

The SilverDome?
 
Erm. . .it's probably not in FIRST's best interest...especially financially, to purchase a stadium.

Upkeep, personnel, and taxes would be an absolutely massive burden on a non-profit organization. Nevermind the fact that it's all for three days of use a year! If the building's not being used by sports teams anymore, what is FIRST going to do with it for the rest of the time that Nats isn't going on? They sure can't rent that much space . . .

Nationals is a short-term event, and as such, will be best suited for a temporary venue; or something permanent that is owned and operated by someone else.

Disney is good for FIRST, but FIRST does nothing for Disney. It's not the greatest relationship, but it's something we have to live with.

FIRST has noble goals, and fosters great learning and growing experiences. But, I'll be the first to admit. . . I didn't know about that stuff when I started a team. I knew the National Championships were held in WDW, though. It makes a difference.

But, I'm just now realizing that this post is quite a bit like the one before it. . . so, in that case; I agree.

Sean_330 20-08-2001 00:41

What about hosting the Nationals somewhere in Los Angles? There are pleanty of suitable venues like Disneyland, Dodger Satdium (parking lot covers 1/3 square mile), Anaheim stadium, LA convention Center, Staples Cneter, or others. All of those venues can easily handle 15,000 cazy FIRST ppl and multiple playing fields. There are pleanty of hotels that can be used all around those venues that have many vacant rooms in April. Los Angeles International Airoprt has pleanty of flights daily that teams could take. Additionally for all the teams the would come to LA in april, we have nice weather. You could even go to the beach! I know that LA is on the other side of the country for many teams, but i think that the city could easily accomodate FIRST.


Sean

Andy Baker 20-08-2001 01:26

FIRST staff needs to grow also
 
As Nationals are growing and FIRST is adding more Regionals, the FIRST staff needs to grow also.

From what I've heard, there is a new "customer relations" crew of 3-4 people, and that may help. But FIRST has experienced alot of turnover during the past few years.

I think that FIRST needs to add staff in order to handle the rapidly growing competition needs (bigger regionals, bigger nationals).

Is this happening?

Andy B.

Jessica Boucher 20-08-2001 06:43

I hope FIRST knows.....
 
...that they have a HUGE employment pool to choose from. There are so many graduates in this that would love to be on their payroll. That is why I volunteer, cause right now it's as close as I can get ;)

Jeff Waegelin 20-08-2001 10:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Sean_330
I know that LA is on the other side of the country for many teams, but i think that the city could easily accomodate FIRST.

True, but isn't Florida on the other side of the country for many teams, too? LA would be interesting, but I don't know if FIRST would go for it.

EddieMcD 20-08-2001 18:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Waegelin


True, but isn't Florida on the other side of the country for many teams, too? LA would be interesting, but I don't know if FIRST would go for it.

A higher percentage of teams are on the east side of the nation. While Florida is on the other side of the nation for many teams, LA is on the other side of the nation for many more teams.

Mike S. 20-08-2001 23:24

Just wondering...
 
This is more for the people that want 1 unlimited national, Why would you want this gigantic competition, if you don't even get to compete against all the teams?

I personally would have liked to compete with, 190-125-157, and there is more, but that’s not possible because the nationals were huge and setup in divisions that segregates teams.

I think if nationals were brought back to the size of a regional it would be much more fun because you get to compete against all the teams and have a chance of meeting the people who attend.

I know this is in the wrong part of the forum, but I posted here anyway. (Rebel without a cause)

Mike

Sean_330 21-08-2001 00:48

Maybe if the nationals were in Los Angeles, then the balance of teams would switch to the west coast.


Sean
Who would LOVE to see that happen


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