Stop with the "RTFM" stuff
 

We all know what the 'F' in RTFM stands for, and it's not FIRST. So I'd like to ask everyone to stop with the one line RTFM posts. It's rude and unnecessary. There are far better ways to help people with their problems than swearing at them and telling them to read the manual. Try pointing them to a specific section and politely remind to read the manual. I've listened to far too many new CD users complain about the rude and harsh treatment they've received.

Take a look at the example set by Katie Reynolds

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...046#post439046

This is the right way to answer a question. If you don't have the time or desire to answer a question this way, then don't post. No post is much better than some of the rudeness we've been seeing.

It comes down to something simple, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it all. I mean, I know we all get frustrated during build season, but we still need to make an effort to be polite and helpful.

Re: Stop with the "RTFM" stuff
 

Thank you Karthik.

I had been meaning to post something like this today at some point -- this "read the manual" or 'RTFM' or 'search!' auto-response is unnecessary. Katie has the right idea .. I'd hope those of us who have been around for a while would be able to help as much as Katie. Help a person out politely on how to properly ask, search, etc., and they'll start to do it the right way. If not .. then take it up with them in e-mail/private message and make sure they know what's wrong with how they're asking questions.

If these one-word, rude responses continue we may have the moderators start removing them. I'd hate to have to add one more task to the moderators' jobs, so let's try to be proactive and helpful, rather than trying to be the first to say 'hey, read the manual.'

Re: Stop with the "RTFM" stuff
 

- thank you, thank you, thank you -
Jane

Re: Stop with the "RTFM" stuff
 

Karthik -

I really do agree with you for the most part. There is often a lack of respect shown to those who make mistakes and it has been discussed before.

However, have you noticed a lot of people's signatures lately? Some clever person altered the acronym "RTFM" to mean "Read The FIRST Manual" - a much more polite version of the original term. Many people have adopted it and put it in their signature. It is possible that the use of "RTFM" has increased because people are embracing the new variation (possibly unaware that others might not get the reference).

In order to avoid perceived vulgarity, I think people should make it clear that they mean "Read The FIRST Manual". If they do in fact mean to use the impolite version, then yes, Karthik - they should cut it out. :)

Re: Stop with the "RTFM" stuff
 

True true... A while ago I tried to do a spoof thread showing people how annoying it was, and got caught up in it. I think I may have gone too far when I photo shopped Dave's head onto a dictator's...
That particular mistake was OK, though, because we only live to learn.

ON TO THE MATTER AT HAND!


I believe that kindly telling people to Read the manual is fine, if you give the specific reference in the manual, and avoid negative repping people*. However, when you start replying with a mean "RTFM!" or a dry/sarcastic "The answer is in the manual." and serve out negative rep like Turkish delight, Then you are only serving to make things worse.

Just some thoughts,

-Cody C



* I've seen too many people with one post -a question, nonetheless- and one or two bars of negative rep. This should stop.

Re: Stop with the "RTFM" stuff
 

Seconded. What I've done in the past is give them the answer, but also point them in the right direction as far as clarification. I wasn't trying to be rude, but it's also nice, on occaison, to be reminded of a much easier way to solve problems [one that won't have the potential to annoy others]

Essentially, it shouldn't be used as a reprimand. Just a friendly nudge.

Re: Stop with the "RTFM" stuff
 

I think the point Karthik is trying to make is that although it is commonly accepted to most of the people around here that it means "Read the FIRST Manual," it doesn't matter. We all know where the phrase was derived from, and that even though we've changed what the letter says, we haven't changed the meaning of the phrase.

However, I'm definitely for not just giving answers. If I can post any rules question I want, and people will just hand me the rule quoted, then why should I bother to read the manual. Although posting "RTFM" or any other one-liner, is counterproductive, perhaps when someone asks for an obvious the rule, the best thing would be to gently point them to the section or give them the rule number, and have them look it for themselves.

When debating though, always quote the rule in the post. It makes it easier for everyone.

Re: Stop with the "RTFM" stuff
 

Re: Stop with the "RTFM" stuff
 

I got a "RTFM" and a negative rep for making a joke.

Im glad people take things so seriously. And for the other people who dont know what something is, you dont need to yell at them, everyone was new once and it takes someone to show them.

Re: Stop with the "RTFM" stuff
 

Here is another good example of how to properly respond to a question:

This was made on the board "Terminal Block"

Re: Stop with the "RTFM" stuff
 

And to tell the truth saying things like "use the search function" and "RTFM" make you look like a whiner who's only interest is to correct someone and make them feel awkward. Make everyone feel welcome and answer their questions the way they would like them to be answered or at least answer their question first and say that similar information could be found if "blablabla" is typed into the search function. Otherwise you're making the thread even more useless by posting unnecessary comments.

Re: Stop with the "RTFM" stuff
 

How about this: Teach them by example in your answer.

Example:
I searched ChiefDelphi.com with the words "Fisher Price Gearbox" and found the following threads that could have helped you...

The rules are broke up in a few sections. Robot rules are in Section XYZ and Game rules are in Section NMO. Your question covers both sections so you need to read both sections closely....

Being rude is easy. Being a compassionate human being takes work.

Joe J

Re: Stop with the "RTFM" stuff
 

Nice sermon...amen!

Re: Stop with the "RTFM" stuff
 

I have often come across posts with "search first!" as the only response. I know that there are talented people on this forum that have an extreme ability to search the forum... others do not. I am one of those that don't. I don't know a thing about booleans or whatnot and am impatient when it comes down to looking through threads for a specific answer. I also hate to get told to "search first!!!!!!11!!1!one" and that's all that person has in their post. Really annoying and immature.

When I was younger, 2004 I think, I accidentally clicked the post thread button twice and I got my butt handed to me multiple times via neg rep. It was a simple mistake. Young people make mistakes. Older people make mistakes. Heck, even I make mistakes.

I've always wanted to know if there are actually people on this forum that are dead set on finding mistakes by people so they can shove them out into the road to get chewed up by the neg rep givers. It's annoying and lame. So thank you Karthik. You just did what I had been contemplating on doing for the past week or so.. just never got around to it.

The same as what I said goes for the "RTFM" posts, also.

Thank you,

-Jeremiah

Re: Stop with the "RTFM" stuff
 

I agree one hundred percent. Last year I asked a question about one of the parts in the KoP, and I got two negative reps with "read the manual," and although I agreed that I should have read it over again, I thought it took more time to actually type out the post and negitve rep me than it would to "CTRL+F" the awnser from a merged manual.

There is a nicer phrase if you must refer to using a phrase called "RTMP" which I have found no vulgur interpritations for which means' Read the Manual Please,' which is a bit nicer but still impolite that someone still told you too look at the manual and post rather than to take a few minutes of their time to to "help" a fellow FIRSTer.

Pavan.

Re: Stop with the "RTFM" stuff
 

Hmm. I always thought RTFM meant "Rice. Toronto's Favorite Meal."

One other drawback to "RTFM" posts is that other teams may think you have answered a question. If a thread pops up that looks interesting, with say 3 or 4 responses, I'll check it out. It seems that more often than not, the first post is a question, then the next 2 or 3 are variations of "RTFM." So not only are the RTFMers being rude to the thread starter, but they're wasting the valuable time of members of other teams, not to mention the moderators.

Re: Stop with the "RTFM" stuff
 

I absolutely agree with Taylor, while saying RTFM gets the point across, it doesn't help ANYONE. Katie's post was invaluable, and I thank her for it. And remember, not everyone has the time to sit and read every detail of the FIRST Manual. I garauntee there is a section in it that I don't know at all. And rather than sitting down and searching the entire manual for a small question, it's a lot easier to ask for reference from my other CDers. =)

Re: Stop with the "RTFM" stuff
 

Thats what my team does. Since its only me and another person on our team thats active on CD, i am always asked the question "was there anything on CD about it yet?" or "Go post it on CD and see what they think"

Re: Stop with the "RTFM" stuff
 

People often tell me their RTFM posts are because people asking redundant questions answered in the manual clutter the forums. Well here's a newsflash, posting "RTFM" and nothing else is going to bring your thread to the top of the portal, and fill it up with something truly useless.

Seriously, if you're so high up on your pedestal you can only be bothered to scold others without actually doing anything helpful, then please just shut up.

Yes, I said shut up, yes it's rude, so are the people that just say RTFM and nothing else.

If someone posts something obviously in the manual, then post the section, or their answer and a reminder to look at the manual, maybe a hint on how to found certain bits and pieces. I can say as a programmer I focused on those aspects of the manual and its a big manual, so its not always intuitive where the other stuff is, it's pretty easy to miss stuff. We can all help promote manual reading by helping people understand how to find things, and by encouraging (not berating!) them to look in the manual more deeply.

That's my two and change.

Re: Stop with the "RTFM" stuff
 

Oh, you know I have something to say about all of this. :D

I agree that RTFM as an ONLY response is very rude.
That said, the RTFM responses should stop as a single entity in a response.
Libby's example was kinda funny though I'll admit. I laughed and gave her some positive rep for having a sense of humor, something some people on these forums obviously lack..
Anyways.. to respond to the whole RTFM thing as a whole.. I have a comment.
When someone asks a question here 5 minutes after kickoff (which happens EVERY year, that is kind of annoying, and probably does deserve a RTFM response.. Sit back and read the manual for a few hours AFTER watching the kickoff and BEFORE instantly coming here to ask a question. Kind of annoying.. yes.. it is. Don't lie to yourself. Everyone here has been annoyed at posts at one time. Even this thread is proof of that.
Right now though, if I see a RTFM as a response, I feel bad for the person posting cause by now if they have questions, they probably already read the manual where they thought it would be.

I can't lie, I have not read the manual at all this year. :o I am a little less involved in FIRST in build season as a whole than I have been in previous years. That said, with 6 weeks of build, and more until the events start, I expect everyone on my team to understand the manual, the game, and the rules enough to proceed without asking questions that can EASILY be defined in the manual very clearly. Everyone in FIRST has plenty of time to read the manual. Do it.
If you don't, then obviously you are not that dedicated to the program and should not be asking questions.

Ok, I'll have to respond to this one in 2 parts.

Good idea. If someone already asked for something to be clarified, no need for you to ask again. Awesome thought process.

Also a good idea, and ONLY because of the words "what they think". Remember CD and the people posting here are not official answers. You can only get those directly from FIRST and the Q&A system. No one should act as an official agent of FIRST on here (minus a few folks - Such as Dave, but even his posts say something to the effect of "I know inside info, but to be absolutely sure you get a right answer and to make it completely official, please ask the Q&A" - Smart guy that Dave character. :cool: )

All of us are learning, and trying to teach at the same time with the game, and the competition. Which brings me to the next quote:

Yes, I agree with Matt completely. If you think you have enough knowledge to post a RTFM reply, get off your high horse, and actually start helping.
Post the section, and a bulleted <X> type thing to steer someone in the right direction.

The manual is the easiest thing to quote in the world. Just post:

or something similar as a response if you are too lazy to type an answer.

Guess what?
The example of <R1> is the same length characters as RTFM so you won't be wasting any more time typing if that's what you are worried about doing.

If that's not the issue, then just go bug your team and build a bot and stop posting here if you can't post nicely.

Re: Stop with the "RTFM" stuff
 

I agree with the general tone of this thread. I would like to remind people that new posters are not as savy as us "old" people and although they have an idea that the manual might contain the answer, they aren't familiar with the document's layout and how the subjects are organized. It would be a big help to include a quote of the manual section to help them get familiar with the manual. For instance from the manual I have downloaded...

Bumpers are covered in the Robot section of the manual
"<R37> Teams are strongly encouraged to use bumpers on their ROBOTS. Bumpers can reduce damage to ROBOTS when they contact another ROBOT or field elements. Teams may choose to use STANDARD BUMPERS or custom bumper designs. STANDARD BUMPERS have several advantages, such as being excluded from the calculation of the ROBOT weight and volume limitations specified in Rule <R07>. "
Please review this section as it applies to your design.

This way you are pointing them at the section you have read and are referencing in your answer. Everyone should also remember that more than one person will read their response including mentors and students who are not on a FRC team but are investigating the possibility. We all then are taking some responsibility for starting new teams while visiting here.

Re: Stop with the "RTFM" stuff
 

Thanks everyone for reminding us all of the appropriate etiqutte for posting replies. It is obvious from the outpouring of responses to Karthik, that all of you "get it" and that makes us at CD very, very, happy!

So - now lets all go and exercise the best practices that each of you have taken the time to share here.

Just remember to "be nice" when posting responses - even to those that think "Read The First Manual", is an approporiate response.

I would think that users would prefer reading a responses that includes "value added" information, put together in a way that supports a warm and friendly community, verses, an acronym or rude one liner.

Now "go forth" and teach everyone by example, the right way to handle these situations.

Good job folks -

Mike Aubry

Re: Stop with the "RTFM" stuff
 

But what if the best answer is to RTFM? I mean, we can't tolerate absolute ignorance. And we should appreciate frankness.

So RTFM now, and RTFM forever.

Re: Stop with the "RTFM" stuff
 

Jak, I think that it's the sentiment that people don't like, not the phrase. Yes, people should read the manual, it's their responsibility. But being quite so rude about it is just inappropriate. I expect manners and common courtesy out of my students, and I do the same out of the students on here. It's been said before, and I'll say it again. The students in this organization get very adult opportunities, and they are expected to act like adults. I know it's build season, but please remember not to use language that you wouldn't use in front of grandma. (I guess if you say those words in front of your grandmothers, I just don't know what else to say)

Re: Stop with the "RTFM" stuff
 

This reminds me of Gov. George Wallace's 1963 inauguration address -- both in tone and general offensiveness.Well said, Beth.

Re: Stop with the "RTFM" stuff
 

Jak,
I don't know how else to put this, so I guess I'm going to be frank with you.

If you really truely believe that the best answer is RTFM - Please do NOT respond to that post - period!

Just simply let the thread pass you by and save your response for other opportunities.

In short, YES - tolerance and understanding IS expected from this community of users.

Please allow other users that can provide a polite and carefully worded response, to guide and teach those that need reminding to review the rules, the pleasure of doing so.

Mike Aubry
Coach
Team 47 - ChiefDelphi

Re: Stop with the "RTFM" stuff
 

Many new people have started using this phrase this year so I thought it was time to bring it up again.

Re: Stop with the "RTFM" stuff
 

I was thinking about this thread as well, but my thoughts were along the lines of "people are much more willing to answer (sometimes repetitive) questions while giving polite reminders that many answers are found in the Manual."
One note I would make is to check threads before you make a new one. It seems there are about a dozen threads solely focused on <G36> (the infamous 6'-in-opponents-homestretch rule), with many more threads hijacked by this idea. In the first week of the game, there are much more pressing needs (such as designing a robot) than pointing out a flaw in the animation or griping about a rule that will surely be clarified by the GDC very shortly, as soon as the Q&A is up or an Update comes out.
Allow me to clarify by saying it is important to discuss game rules and strategies, but please do so in a controlled, professional way.

Thank you for resurrecting this thread - it's a good reminder for veterans and some nice reading for rookies.

Re: Stop with the "RTFM" stuff
 

It can be hard to distinguish whether a poster is looking for interpretation of a rule versus using the CD community as a human search engine. If the rule in question is unambiguous, the tendency among FIRST veterans is to assume the poster hasn't referred to the manual.

A rookie CD member should be gently prodded to use the resources that are in-hand before throwing the question to CD. I prefer to send a PM to the poster - it's discreet and (hopefully) non-threatening. Tell them that CD members are trying to get their arms around the subtleties of the game. I don't think neg rep points and terse "RTFM" answers is the right way to educate our junior FIRST members. Think of this as an opportunity to introduce the rookies to GP and the spirit of FIRST.

Same can be said about posters with very poor spelling, grammar and heavy leet usage. A PM reminding them that their posts reflect on their team can guide them to better posting.

Re: Stop with the "RTFM" stuff
 

Amen brother. I'm old school with no text messaging ability. I'm tired of seeing single letters being used for real words (ie r, u, c etc). This is ok for texting but PLEASE don't use it here.
If I see to many misspelt words or really bad grammer I will stop reading the post.
What you could do, if you have a long post to make, is use Word to compile your ideas and than paste it here after you spell check it. Or you could use a dictionary like I do.

As for the RTFM, some posters are trying to lawyer the rules (aka read between the lines). This is a bad practice that could get you into trouble at a regional during inspection or competition.

*jumps off soapbox*

Re: Stop with the "RTFM" stuff
 

A few things from me in one of the best threads I have ever seen period:

• There's Google
• There's the manual
• and there's this amazing forum which lets you

1. search or
2. ask

Now how you get an answer to an important question in your mind is completely up to the mind. Sure there are some days things get redundant, but that is how we all collectively progress and make sure the meek, middle, and strong people have the equivalent chance of getting someplace on their projects.

Short: Every mind works differently, it will do what it must in order to find an answer, and if it is here, we better be happy to offer it.

-Joe

Re: Stop with the "RTFM" stuff
 

While it is important to remind people new to CD (and sometimes not so new) to read the manual, and search before posting, it is also worth remembering that not all FRC teams or team members speak English as a first language.

Those of us who are fluent in English should consider how challenging it would be to keep up with CD if every second post required us to look a word up in the dictionary, or if one year the rule book came out in... oh, say Portuguese, French, Spanish, Hebrew or Arabic.

Jason