Is Defense key to this game?
 

I heard Adam on First cast knocking our concept of a big ramp and low scorer (expecting more from us - BTW I take no offense), Which I can understand. He expected us to bring back our 05 bot with the arm like 1345 has and the Exploding Minotaurs. Don't think that this wasn't our first initial design pattern. In fact plans were moving swiftly for the Exploding Minotaur design. But we took our 05 chassis and hung a ringer on it and then tried to score while playing average defense against it, and it became clear that defense is easy to play in this game. 1 bot on defense thats just halfway decent can shut down half the rack, of coarse the opponents side. Now all the great high scoring arm designs are held to maybe 2 scores until the end of the match. Yes they can keep capping while others are climbing but 60 points cannot be over come by 5 ringers "in a row". These rows are going to be hard to come by if both teams are "atempting to score". I think scoring is going to be more about having to score where you are forced to and not realy where you want to. We are planning to play a lot of defense.
For example, you're allowed to pin somone against the rack for as long as you want if they are trying to score. Thats a big rule! Those arms can get tangled up in those chains ya know... if someone shoves you from behind while your trying to center a ringer above a stinger your arm is going into the chains, will it catch? If you dont let go of that ringer you can be held there till the end of the match. If you let go you just wasted a lot of time picking up a ringer and going to score it. I'll bet that if you wind up with a great capper on your alliance, they will require somone on the alliance to play defense in order to "reserve" the spider legs they need to get better rows. That defender is critical in usefull scoring that can over come the ramp points. BTW from our estimates the best possible scoring from a single team/bot will not be more than 6 hung during a live match (this will be rare and undefended).
Granted that defense won't happen all the time and these great scorers will score. But when they do get shut down "all these ramps" are going to start looking pretty good. As long as they are truley big and wide and stable enough for frantic teens to navigate. Or the lifts, which kind of scare me, but are a good idea.

What do you think? :D

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

I love the idea of a defensive bot. With the 3 omniwheel design you can scoot around the rack with the greatest of ease.

Chris

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

While I do agree a defensive bot may be useful in particular matches, especially when it can also offer a chance at bonus points, I don't think this game is highly defensive (or nearly as defensive as last year). Because you can approach this scoring object from 360* as opposed to about 120* (like last year), it makes it much harder to run a solid "zone" defense. Especially considering the shape of the rack creates a great place for other teams to "block" for eachother (preventing the defensive bot from getting to the scoring bot).

Also, I think you misunderstood the pinning rule. I think it says the robot that is SCORING is allowed to pin the defender, not that the scoring robot is allowed to be pinned.
I think that the best defense this year will be a good offense, similar to 2005. Being able to quickly score on several positions on the rack will immediately and greatly reduce the opposing alliance's highest possible score, while enlarging yours. A coordinated offensive should be able to overcome and overwhelm the other alliance, even if being defended.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

I think it's way too early to proclaim what is a good design and a bad design for the game, seeing as though the only matches played were the Kickoff game, some human-robot matches, and MiniFRC.

We'll know this weekend, though!

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

I agree that a Defensive bot will play a key factor this year, but it will not win the game for the team. This year the best possible strategy would be 2 offensive bots and a Defensive bot (much like other years). And the Defensive bot will probably need to have a secret weapon or an edge compared to the other defensive bot, a ramp or something else, just to be picked by the good teams. I personally think that you should go sor a scorer if you can build it and make it work, and a defensive bot if you have no other alternative.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

I think the major strategy that will evolve will come down “tube superiority”. That is, once an alliance gets a little as one tube ahead of the other, they will shut the other alliance down. Even the best scorers will find it next to impossible to score onto moving targets with determined defenders and panicking alliance partners always in the way.

A penalty free game, especially deep into eliminations, will boil down to the last 15 seconds when both alliances are capable of parking two robots. The first to have gained tube superiority will win 62-60. However, given the multitude of possible infractions, there won’t be many penalty free games. So, neither defense nor offense is the key to this game

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

The way I see it is this:

Good defense will shut down most weaker offensive strategies.
Great offensive strategies will shut down good defense.

The question then becomes who will have the great offensive strategies. Ask me around May 1.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

When were at nationals I think we'll see the game a lot differently. When both alliances are able to get 2 robots off the ground 12" fairly efficiently, tubes are what is going to win the match.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

:yikes: HELLOooooo from TEAM 88
I will put in my 2 cents worth -- score quickly, play very good defense, and pick up "2 BOTS" in the end. You must be able to play the whole game because you never know who you have as team partners. All teams must read the rule section, check out "G39", and the rest of them. Over the past few years a good offense is very hard to beat, has be done but very hard to do. Good luck to all the great teams seeeee ya in GA. oh? yeah? OH !!!!!!YEAH!!!:D
MOE and TEAM 88 TJ2

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

I'm curious to see exactly how easy it will be to play defense. The rack is hard enough to see through without 5 other robots screaming around, lights reflecting off the diamond plate, ringers in place, and a frenzied coach screaming in the driver's ear.
I agree with Billfred's analysis completely.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

that is exactly why i see auto so important, and during the match have the cpu take over for scoring. It can be done and has been done. ;) :p

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

There is always the yearly question of "how much defense will the referee crews let the teams play?".

In 2005, the answer to that was "not very much".
In 2006, the answer was "quite a bit".

In 2007, the answer will be "???????". We won't know until we get out on the field and let the games commence.

A lot of the rules involving penalties are not absolute. In each situation where a penalty may be required, the refs will have to make a snap judgement call to interpret and apply the rules as they perceive them to be. When asked in the Q&A to clarify possible penalty-inducing situations, how many times have you seen the GDC post that "hypothetical game situations are highly context-dependent. It is not practical for us to provide definitive answers for all indivual situations that may be presented"?

It all boils down to how individual refs interpret and apply the rules at each event - the collective decisions these volunteers make will dictate whether the game is skewed toward offense, defense, or a balance of both. I always hope for the balanced game, where both defensive and offensive robots are allowed to shine, and neither style is "artificially f(l)avored" over the other.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

I think defense is being underrated due to that fact that this scoring object is not big. 1 bot can block 3 legs just by going back and forth a couple feet, 2 could be blocked by never even moving. And if they choose to do this on the opponents side, they will be forced to come around and score on the opposite side of the field, which is being occupied by opposing scorers - and much harder to see what you're doing. The dynamics of this scoring object should be experimented with using live bot defense. Which is what we did. its possible to overreach a defender on the lower 2 levels but the high reachers will need to get in close to score, and may be able to push thier way in. But defense can also be played in keeping the oposing team from picking up the ringers in the first place.
In 2005 we had a higly offensive bot, but we were shut down pretty easily by good defense. The difference there was that the field was spread out, we could go many directions and still score. This rack is right at the center of the field where "everyone" will be. Its going to be crowded and a defender need only play a zone defense and you're going to have your hands full trying to score on it. I know people are thinking of coordinated attacks, but in reality these take time and only work out half the time.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

You are not takin ginto the fact that if the robot is a low robot then they can score high on it. If the Robot is a tall robot, i will be getting pushed out of the way because of the weight rule. And if it has an arm, then it is technically not a defensive bot. Defense is good, but scoring is what will win the game.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

defense will be key but very hard to keep with fast smart teams

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

I applaud, no, embrace with open arms people who pick on Adam (I need someone in ATL to throw him in the fountain btw, PM me if your interested) along with others on the FIRSTcast team. Push us.

Anyway, my thoughts are quite simple. Too many teams have ramp bots, too many teams can get two robots on their backs and score. I wouldn't be surprised if we see ramp bots getting ontop of other ramp bots due to their proliferation. If you want to get picked for finals for a ramp (like in 2004 you would if you could hang like crazy), then I think you are mistaken. That's part one (and really doesn't answer your question at all, it's a personal rant.)

As for defense, I can see your argument quite well, but how does this NOT apply to any other game? Last year teams would shoot, get hit, and totally miss, sending balls missing. Teams could to the same with the tetras, with the multipliers, with ramp blocking, with goal stealing and moving (think 71), etc. Maybe it's the fact I'm not on a team and I don't have access to the field and build, so I don't see the writing on the wall, but I see defense and offense as being the same this year as any other. Heck, I think defense was more pronounced in last year's game due to the forced defense/offense rounds compared to this year.

I'm impressed by your massive ramp, which could be used to blot out the sun, and I really like that your taking a different route with this game, but I don't see how defense is more important or the key to this game. I think the key this year is torrid manipulation, just like in 2005 with the tetras.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

My prediction is that the rack score will be the deciding factor in the majority of matches. If that is the case, defense of the rack will be a big factor and teams will have to hang ringers quickly to keep from being defended and scoring robots need to be very manuverable (or immoveable) to generate big scores.

"Why will the rack score be deciding?" you ask? Well, I believe that, except for a few "hero" machines, getting robots off the ground is not going to be a walk in the park, that's why. Recall how many teams had a hard time getting up a big, fixed, ramp last year and how often teams wait until too late to try for it? Now look at the size of the ramp or lift that they're going to be trying to get on in the last few seconds of the game. I expect to see some "interesting" piles of robots in the end zones this year.

Guess we'll find out in 18 days.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

Arms can be used defensively. They can be very effective that way.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

In 2005, while the rest of the FIRST world was off in offensive land, Triple Play was played defensively in Manchester, New Hampshire. With 2 robots the seventh seed shut down the second seeded alliance, and this was before the serpentine draft. The defense occured on half of the field, so there were six goals spread out all along the perimeter. The second seed scored 2 points, both dropped tetras in autonomous. A loading zone penalty cost the seventh seed the match, but there isn't an equivilent penalty in this game.

If you can get ahead early, and dedicate your two better drivetrains to pure defense, your opponent has limited options. They have to outscore you. Every robot they use to keep you from ramping, they can't ramp. Every robot they send to block you, they can't score with.

Could we be in for Stack Attack v2, where the name of the game is get ahead early, keep your opponent from scoring, and ramp?

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

1 more thing. A fairly obvious yogi-ism-like statement...If your playing defense your not scoring, you are most certainly attempting to keep them from scoring. I always look at the teams that are on einstein, year in and year out they approach the game with 1 basic approach: Score points. If you are forcing a team to play defense on you while you are trying to score youve already won the battle, now all your working on is the war.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

There are so many combinations of robots possible that strategy will be more important than ever this year. Each match will require knowledge of your alliance partners abilities and that of your opponents. I think this will be a very dynamic game and it will be totally different Saturday morning than the what’s played on Friday morning.

I am going to have to drive up to Western Michigan just so I can see the game played in the fifth week.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

Some thoughts...

It seems that the time, effort and resources required to prevent or delay an opposing robot from scoring a ringer is staggeringly lower than those required to place it on the rack. As with any other game, there will be those teams that are markedly better at scoring ringers than most others, but on the whole I feel that we'll see low scoring matches through a majority of the season. I don't think that Champion-caliber teams will get to that level through defense alone, however.

It also appears as if a great number of folks are taking for granted the relative ease of accomplishing any of the tasks in this game. Just as scoring ringers will be more difficult than many project because of movement on the rack coupled with defense, getting robots 4" or 12" into the air is no small feat, either. In fact, doing it reliably and efficiently is more difficult than scoring ringers. I predict that some 75% of all lifts and ramps will not function in any meaningful capacity and will have sacrificed some resources that might have been better applied to a ringer scoring arm.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

Another related question - Can defense be key to this game IN AUTONOMOUS?

I say yes.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

Absolutely, if you have a fast drive train it isn't that tough, especially with two gears, speed across the field then slow it down before you make contact.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

We will have one of those Ramp/defender robots at Manchester.

Do I believe that defense alone will win? No. But I believe that defense will play a far bigger role than most believe. I believe that having at least 1 defensive robot will be critical to a winning alliance.

With active defense, robots and the rack obscuring vision, the pressure of time, and the difficult task of putting a ringer on the rack consistantly I believe that a great scorers can be limited to 3 scoring chances. That means a max of 48 points (3x3). A good ramp can score between 45 and 60 points each match.

I guess we'll see in Manchester if our assessment of the game strategy is right or not.

See Y'all in Manchester :cool:

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

What will be more important largely depends on the alliance you're facing, what your partners can do, and what time of year it is. Early in the season ramps will come out on top as most ringers are inaccurate and score few rings (meaning low ring bonuses). Get 3 good ringers together late in the season though, and we may see our first 300+ point match since 2001.

Defense will be important, but unless the other alliance has no lifting capability and you can guarantee both your partners 12" up, I don't think a purely defensive strategy will work. If they have a lifter and you have a lifter, your 60 offset, meaning your score comes down to... the rack.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

I think you're undervaluing the importance of being able to reach over a defending bot.
In the following example, I'm going to lay out a few assumptions to make the problem simpler. The scoring bot is a 37"x27" bot, with an un-turreted arm projecting from the 37" dimension. The arm is 4" thick, is 83" long (center of rotation 3" from the rear of the robot) and therefor projects 49" when parallel to the ground from the front of the robot to the front of the end effector (about .3" from the maximum allowed value in this problem, using the hypotenuse 101.823" hypotenuse of the 72"x72" size allowment). The arm has a shoulder joint (and point of rotation) 45" off of the ground. The arm is designed to score the tubes parallel to the ground, and has a wrist joint to keep them parallel through-out the rotation of the arm. The end effector uses one of the sides of the tube to manipulate it, projecting the rest of the tube forward from the end of the end effector.
Now, we plug all these fancy numbers into a calculator, and figure out how far the robot can be away from the rack to score on each level, and we get these numbers back.
Low spider- 61.388"
Middle spider- 58.473"
Top spider- 36.868"
(For more info on how I calculated these number, please consult the illustration below demonstrating the example for the Top Spider, including clearance height for the entire spider foot, stinger, and bottom half of tube)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...titled-1-2.jpg

Beyond that, all of those reach numbers could be even greater if the robot had a higher point of rotation, and/or a turreted arm (allowing for a longer reach from the frame while remaining in the 72" x 72" size limitation). Given the same arm and base constraints (4" thick arm, 27"x37" base, with the center of rotation 3" away from the end of the 37" dimension) the "holy grail" arm design (360º turret, with a point of rotation at the height of the top spider) you could in fact score from ≈76" away without violating the 72"x72" rule. Note, this the first design not an easy design either (especially making an 83" long arm fit in the 48" starting height), and would probably either require a multi-jointed arm and/or a telescopic arm. But this shows that a 48" robot, with an un-turreted arm can score over the short dimension of a defender at all 3 levels of the rack.

Now, granted, it does not mean that these bots are undefendable, far from it. They still may be able to be pushed away, or rotated out of scoring position. Additionally, if the defending bot is tall enough (or has an arm that can extend high enough), they may be able to block the tube from being scored.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

IMHO, I think you are quite mistaken. True, there are bots that will be able to do all of that, but the games are designed with 2 sets of teams in mind... this year its the bot lifters, and the tube placers.


Looking back to last year, my team tried to do everything... pick up off the ground, load from the top, shoot, sit down, and dump. It ended up that we failed miserably at shooting, and we weren't worth our weight in salt because of our limited abilities. Finally, when we specialized as a dumper, we were ranked high at our regional, and were picked at nats. Notice that the winning bot, 25, only loaded from the top and shot.

Bits of advice (I know many people have said this before):
Design yourself to be the most attractive alliance partner you possibly can be. Do one thing better than everyone else, and establish yourself as the best of that one thing. Trust me, it works.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

Having two alliance partners that can both lift two robots will not be redundant wastefully.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

I'm not saying that defense alone can win a match, of coarse not. But I am saying that theres a key symbiotic relationship there that a scoring team will need each match. 2 offensive scoring allainces will just cancel each other out. Broken patterns won't add up to much. If an alliance can concentrate on holding 1 row, and all agree on that one row. then definitely attack it as fast as you can. But as soon as the other team sees this strategy they will also place on that row "Unless they are blocked".
lilavery, I know what you're saying, and yes the reach can be made, but good defense will most likley be played like a swinging gate about 3' away from the rack, and they just go back and forth making you go around. Now when 2 bots approach both with ringers and you're in the middle, you just jiggle back and forth quickly and they'll keep getting tapped, slowed and misaligned. Even the best capper will get slowed to a few caps. Also these long arms you're describing will bounce with vigor when extended to those lengths while being shoved around. And every team will be tempted to avoid that situation and look elsewhere for a cap, usually the sides or around to the opponents side. Then they contend with your other teammates, or even their very own teammates playing the same d on the other side. I see nothing but traffic jams.
Will the ramps win the day, no, its a combination of every scoring opportunity taken. A good capper is critical to a win. A good ramp is also critical to a win, and a good defender is critical to a win. But a match without defense (against a capping team) is just asking for a loss.
And Joe Matt - will a ramp get picked for alliance pairings? just a ramp, probably not. A good defensive ramp, yes. A top pick maybe not. A solid ramp that can score fast and play defense? deffinitely.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

Defense will be very important this year. But offense will win games. its as simple as that. a defensive bot, unless they have a ramp that their alliance partners can climb on to is useful, but not as much as a decent offensive bot. Besides, i think we will see many robots which are 4 feet off the ground, 120 lbs, and an offensive bot. these bots, wont be as easily pushed by the defensive bots as the 100lbs bots.

what its going to come down to is how your alliance can play the game against the opposing alliance.
scouting=will be as important as ever.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

We have a arm and we are a very Offense/Defense robot.

I Think Defense is a very big thing this year. But to just have a ramp might be a down fall for many. If I was on a team that did not have a ramp bot than we would make sure the other team if they have a ramp not be able to get to it in time.


The plan would be score quick then make sure the other team does not get on a ramp. Strong robots will be able to move ramp bots so be careful of strong robots.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

... Adam, fix your shoooteerr!!!!!!!!!

ok, now about the topic. I think both will be very important. A good offensive robot is going to score fast and a good defensive robot is going to stop offesive bots from scoring. Isn't that the case most of the time? But like someone said earlier, we won't know until we start rackin n' rollin. =)

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

I agree. I was talking about this with a mentor yesterday. However, the discussion at hand is defense. To quote Forrest Gump "Defense is as defense does sir"

Not that that quote helps in my point, but defense is a strong aspect of the FIRST competition, and the FIRST makes a point in saying that their games are highly interactive.

And as Jess said, it's too early to tell, but we'll see soon:)

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

While I believe defense and offense are both important each will have its place. Especially with the ramps this year. Most ramp style bots I assume will be playing defense until the final stages of a match where they will unfold and everyone will scramble for the 60 points bonus.

But in finals when the alliances are formed, what good is it to have more than 1 ramp other than maybe redundancy? The Exploding Minotaur construction is planning to have ramps, ( right now its coming down to ramps or some more effective sensory arrays ) but we also decided to go 5' 110 lbs. The reason was b/c last year 1902 was 102 lbs and was still able to play extremely effective defense. If you have a solid drive train you can play defense whoever or where ever you are. So yes strategic defense will be important, and so will be having those ramps.

It was just in our evaluation of the polls taken on delphi that when ~ 70% of the pollers said they were going to have ramps that we would concentrate on a good arm. I think at most regionals atleast 8 ramp bots will exist, and in picking for finals thats really all you need ( if thats all you do ).

I personally am excited with the way 179's bot performs from the video I've seen and you have come up in our discussions many times of strategy/scenarios. Its is a very effective way to make sure you are very highly seeded in qualifying. However if you were doing the picking, I believe it would be silly to pick another good ramp? Do you Disagree?

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

The notion that a scorer can score over a defensive bot of any kind is ridiculous. If that bot can move, It can keep you from scoring. The smallest height possible, 4', covers one spider leg, and makes it nigh impossible to score on another. That is with the defensive bot sitting still in front of the spider leg(s). Our robot will score on the bottom rung, get the ramp points in the end, and play a mean defense when that is needed. I have a feeling that bots who follow our strategy will be highly successful in this years game.


I know for a fact that if you give me a drivable robot base that is 12" off the ground, and set me in front of one of the best scorers, I will be able to stop them from scoring. Period. There are little things that you can do, like catch their bot in the sweet-spot on their corner... and when you do, they can't score.


Defense will be key in this years game... just like in any game before it.


P.S. We (arguably) won the Philly regional last year with defense.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

defense plays a large role, but in actual competition an efficient offense will win over a strong defense. In fact two years ago, 2005, the nation champions actually avoided other bots.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

this year's game is more like 2005 than 2006. teams should have a defensive robot.
We learned from experience in the finals at the vegas regional against the gila monsters (championship finalist) and the high rollers 987 who had a third defensive robot that messed us up big time when trying to score tetras. We had 3 B++/A-- robots while they had 2 A robots and one F robot in terms of scoring (not their focus). They still beat us out.
On our way to the finals, we simply just outscored other teams, until an annoying bot (hehe.....) kept messing with us trying to score.

Because the camera will be less efffective compared to 2006 in helping teams score (unlike locking in and scoring more than one 7" nerf balls), defense can wreak havoc more effectively this year.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

2 ramps in a final alliance makes no sense. Personally if I were picking from our teams perspective, we'd want 2 cappers that could climb aboard, and 1 of those I'd prefer could also switch to Defense depending on the lead we take. However we hope to be one of the top scorers also, even though it is on 1 row (1 is all you need :D )

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

Im not 100% that forrest gump said that...could just be a bad memory though :-P

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

regardless of who said it, the quote speaks truth.

each year, it seams as if first is aiming towards a more offensive game, but still, defense will be key in a strong alliance. the high scoring bots will be scoring the tubes as the defense will be keeping them from performing their duty. I personally think the end game will have a huge impact on the result of each match, especially in the final rounds. a good performing, consistant rampbot will be needed in each allaince, but as previously stated, each alliance only needs one.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

Good defense will seperate weak offense from superior offense.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

That notion is not ridiculous by any means on the imagination. While I agree that a vast majority of bots will not be able to do it effecitvely, several of the upper tier of teams will probably have that capability. And there is no guarantee that the defensive bot (no matter how powerful) will have the ability to move the offensive one, or will even be oriented correctly to do so (as he may be, as swampdude has decribed, oriented in order to strafe in front of the goal). There is also no guarantee that the defensive bot will be 4' tall (and if it is, in many situations, it could just be scored over for the upper two levels).
While some aspects of this statement are typically true (namely rotational defense by attacking a bots corner), they are not always. Particularly shutting down a powerhouse offensive team with a drivable base. Many of the upper tier at each regional will be able to outrun a kitbot, easy. Many of the upper tier at each regional will be able to push around a kitbot, easy. Many of the upper tier in FIRST will have features to try and prevent rotational motion (and many teams have for years). Many of the upper tier in FIRST will have turrets to rapidly adjust for rotational motion that may occur (I can't wait to see what 27 comes up with this year ;) ). If the opposing alliance can commit a large enough defensive effort to any of these upper tier bots, good luck for them scoring enough to win.


As was alluded in this thread earlier, if you're playing defense (at least the type discussed in this thread), it means you're not scoring. By the pure definition of defense (not the type mentioned in this thread), the offensive bot is also playing defense then (by forcing the other alliance to commit a bot(s) to defense, you're reducing their total possible score). This kind of "counter-offense" is evident through statistics from previous years.
For example, 1261 was by no dream of the imagination a defensive team. They were a pure offensive team, with a fast swerve and long-range shooter. Yet, pre-championship, they were ranked (statistically) as the 51st best defensive team, only allowing 20.33 points/match. By contrast, team 306 (sorry to pick on you Cody), a self-admitted defensive team (and quite a good one at that) was ranked 869th, allowing 39.39 points/match.
Some other primarily offensive teams of note, 1114 was ranked 195th, allowing 26.08 points/match, 254 was 136 @ 24.5 points/match, 968 was 67th at 21.13 points/match, and 384 was 86th with 22.4 points/match. Some other of the top notch defensive teams were 710 ranked 861st allowing 39 pts/match, 522 was ranked 750th with 35.81 pts/match, 1816 was ranked 883rd allowing 39.67 pts/match, and 1902 was ranked 629th allowing 33.54 pts/match. What does this mean? Even during a game that had a huge emphasis on actual contact defense, the best defense is often a strong offense.
Now this will be especially true this year, as every spider leg scored reduces your opponents top potential score for that row and that column by a factor of 2. Additionally, spoilers may or may not play a large roll (their importance will probably grow later in the season, and later in each tournament), and are placed by teams that have the capability to place ringers (and more legs you can score on, more flexibility those teams have in placing them).

As for who is ultimately right in this debate, only time will tell. Without a doubt, scores will be low during the first couple weeks (which may or may not be due to defense). Without a doubt, defensive bots will find large roles in all the East Coast regionals. Without a doubt, at IRI and Championship there will be a shift towards a more offensive alliance (which does not mean higher scores). Without a doubt, a smart "defensive" team (such as the robots displayed by 179, 306, and a few others so far) will have a very prominant OFFENSIVE role when all is said and done (and not just through bonus points).

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

lillavery,
awesome awesome data....that is some of the most undisputable evidence ive seen of offense vs defense ever

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 577164) While I agree that a vast majority of bots will not be able to do it effectively, several of the upper tier of teams will probably have that capability. And there is no guarantee that the defensive bot (no matter how powerful) will have the ability to move the offensive one, or will even be oriented correctly to do so (as he may be, as swampdude has decribed, oriented in order to strafe in front of the goal). There is also no guarantee that the defensive bot will be 4' tall (and if it is, in many situations, it could just be scored over for the upper two levels).

There is also no guarantee that the offensive robot won't explode. Things are just very unlikely to ever line up that way. Just as they are very unlikely to ever line up to be totally in the offensive bot's favor. I don't know who you are referring to as "the upper tier" of teams, but unless they are magic, they are going to have a hard time finding a wheel that can transfer torque much better than the AM does. We have done extensive testing, and had great results with them. A robot won’t just sit still as you score over its head. Unless they have a failure of some sort, and can't move.

Let me rephrase my initial comment:

The notion of a robot sitting still while you score over its head is ludicrous. It just won't happen.
Bottom line is that if our robot is ever caught between an offensive scorer and the rack; the scorer won't score.
We've tested this with previous years' bots, and I know it to be true. I would assume it would be true for any halfway decent defensive bot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 577164) Particularly shutting down a powerhouse offensive team with a drivable base. Many of the upper tier at each regional will be able to outrun a kitbot, easy. Many of the upper tier at each regional will be able to push around a kitbot, easy.

Why do you make the assumption that no "upper tier" teams will try for a ramp/defensive bot? If you ask me, we've had a harder time designing an effective and redundant ramp than any manipulator we've ever done.

A defense/Ramp bot won't always be the underdog/noob. That is an assumption that shouldn't be made, and will get your team into strategic trouble later on. Our 2007 robot, for example, has a custom drivetrain that will give any robot a run for it's money. It also has a consistent ramp, and a low-scoring arm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 577164) Many of the upper tier in FIRST will have features to try and prevent rotational motion (and many teams have for years). Many of the upper tier in FIRST will have turrets to rapidly adjust for rotational motion that may occur (I can't wait to see what 27 comes up with this year ).

Many teams tried to implement the rotational motion stops last year, too. How well did that work?
How about those plentiful and effective turrets from last year? Call me a pessimist, but I just don't see it happening.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 577164) If the opposing alliance can commit a large enough defensive effort to any of these upper tier bots, good luck for them scoring enough to win.

Once again with the assumptions about team quality and function... I just don't get it.

Brandon, there is no "undisputable evidence" either way, and
arguing defense/offense is a droll thing to do, as depending on the situation, either could be called for. That is why we designed our robot to be able to do both. To design your robot for one or the other is a mistake.Offensive robots will do OK, and defensive robots will do OK, but flexible robots will win.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

I very much appreciate what your saying, and normally I'd agree completely. However I don't think this assesment is completely accurate. The defensive bots your metioning didn't have the capability of high scores. So they had to play more defense, and hence were not as much of a distraction during their "offensive periods". That % slant came from the offensive/defensive periods. If I wanted to commit to defense the whole match and forfiet shooting 3 pointers, I deffinitely am losing ground, thats a no brainer.
In this game however, 1 defensive bot can take 2 offensive bots potential scoring from 12 ringers down to 4 and thats actualy pretty easy to do from what our testing has shown. This is equivalent of that 1 defensive bot scoring 8 ringers.
Last year 1 defensive bot only stood to forfiet his offensive period, and then possibly slow the opponents shots down to maybe 1/2, and also lost this time to gather balls.
these are very different games defensively. I think this year more than any other year Defense is the key

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

I agree with Sean.

Think about it this way. Last year we had the dream alliance of 25, 968, and 195 in Atlanta. One huge offense bot, one half offense/half defense, and one huge defense bot. Anyone going into matches against us could easily identify 25 as the "best" team on the alliance, and therefore focused their defensive strategy on them. So, what did we do? We had 25 play defense. So, as teams attacked 25, 968 would ninja their way up on the ramp and score 40 points. And then we would feed them balls. And then they did it again. All the while, people were trying to herd 25 into a corner, even though they needed to be there to human load. When the other alliance finally caught wind of what we were doing it was too late, and last minute defensive efforts only meant 25 could make a break for the goal and throw another 40 points up. This proves that the best defense is an amazing offense. For further proof, ask the Colts.:(

This year's game is a bit different though. Last year a break in defense for 2 seconds could cause a flux of 30, 40 points. This year it will only cause one tube to go up. But, if this tube is in the right spot, it could be disastrous. I guess we will all see come March...

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

Nothing arguable about it, Cody. 306 flat-out provided such significant defense that they were key to helping their alliance win Philly.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

I was not saying that either way is "better" or anything like that. The numbers that sean threw out there are very solid in my eyes. I cant really dispute those facts...thus I called it "undisputable". I agree 100% that flexible robots will win.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

177 won all of their events with defense. Other regionals, which 177 did not attend, seemed to have different outcomes. Offense oriented outcomes.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

Lil Lave,

You keep talking about upper tier teams doing all these things to make defending them really hard and make their offensive capabilities amazing. I think you're forgetting two important facts:

A. The vast majority of teams at most regionals are not "upper tier teams"
B. The serpentine draft almost guarantees a mix of upper and not teams on an alliance.

Granted this all changes at the Championship, but at most regionals, you're going to have one or maybe two real offensive powerhouses on a given alliance in the elims. In seeding you're just as likely to have just one powerhouse on each alliance. Double-teaming the power houses or defending the weaker bots could still prove an effective strategy. It all depends on the vagaries of the alliance mixes in a given match. 75% of the competition is quals, after all. And 95% is not the Finals at Championship.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

Replace "robot" with "alliance" in the above statement, and you'd be right on the money. Remember, this is a team game. One robot does not an alliance, and therefore an event winner, make. It's the mix of complementary robot abilities and driver skill that dictates how well an alliance performs.


Ask the Colts what they thought when they were giving up 163,000 rushing yards a game and losing to teams like the Texans during the regular season..... Only when they remembered how to play DEFENSE (including the New England game) and became a more functionally-complete TEAM did their season turn around.


A bit? This year, the game almost plays defense for you. Unlike in 2006.....

• Scoring objects are non-renewable.
• Scoring locations are limited to 24 possible positions at match start and diminish in number as the match goes on.
• Unlike a fixed round target with a know location providing a clear line of sight for any driver, the 2007 scoring apparatus is very dynamic, and 62.5% of the scoring legs are either obstructed from driver view or perpendicular to the driver's line of sight, requiring additional positioning time to complete the score, save for those (few?) teams able to perfect some sensor-aided hanging method.
• Accumulated scores in the form of rows can directly and substantially be reduced by the opposition by placing these little black objects called spoilers.
• Provided they can even be created in the first place, big rows will immediately become the center of attention for the creating alliance - they could become the Sterilite tote stacks of 2007, only this year, physical space is your enemy instead of gravity. A horizontal row of 6 wraps around 75% of the rack. Have fun guarding that type of real estate. A 2 wide by 3 high array is easier to create and defend, but it's only worth 28 points. It's safe to say the row building alliance will devote at least one robot to protect any high-point creation. I can think of numerous ways to mess with the minds of anyone successful in creating any big ringer formation. Will our alliance attack your formation with 2 spoilers at once? Will we periodically feign interest in your construct, gladly accept the presence of your now stationary and unproductive array-guarding robot and go to work build up our own ringer score with a 3 on 2 advantage? Near the end of the match, will our best and fastest offensive robot sit there patiently with a spoiler between you and your home base, torturing you to make a decision as our superior defensive/ramp bot sets up for the bonus and our powerful offensive hybrid continues to score on the other side? Knowing the spoiler bot has the quicks to make it onto the ramp with little time to spare, will you hold your ground, frustrated that we can make a 60 point run faster than you can, or will you wuss out and run home to mommy early, allowing us to decimate your scoring array with our spoiler? Oh the painful choices.... I see many big-row alliances becoming the victims of their own creation MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAA.......

Sorry, I get carried away sometimes. :D


One powerful ramp/defender. One fast, efficient offensive elite. One 2-way hybrid (ramps are optional, strong drivetrain is not). I see that balanced alliance attack bringing the most strategic options to the table, and I see that type of alliance having the most success this year.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

i second that

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

I'm sure that I'm going out on a limb saying this but here goes. First off, I agree with most of what Brandon Holley has said--Offense will win in the end. I say this for several reasons:
1. Yes, if you are defending you are not scoring. Eventually the offensive bot will score. This is assuming that each of the other bots on both alliances are paired up (either both scoring or both defending).

2. I would love to see a ramp bot defend against all comers. (Sorry, Cody Carey, but I have seen a team with a tower that extends, rotates, raises & lowers and has a somewhat ingenious wristed gripper which automatically loads the tube as it drives by in a "swiping motion") So to say that you can guarantee that any offensive robot can be stopped by your bot without having seen all comers is a bold statement. That robot also has two speed trannies, tank treads and a phenomenal driver.

3. At the long Island regional and the nationals in '05 and '06 everything changed between the qualifying rounds and the eliminations. Defense played a big role at first--but as stated earlier--teams realized that if you are being defensive you are not scoring.

4. I think that once alliances realize that they are "Parked" on a ramp waiting for their quick 60 points, each of the other three teams can each be putting on ONE tube and turn 4-in-a-row (16pts) into 7-in-a-row for 128 points. Remember that's only ONE TUBE EACH!!!!
Do you think that won't be possible?? Look at the Nationals with the tetras and offense vs. defense. In the finals there was NO defense (other than covering the previous tetra)--but blocking was nonexistent.

--So yes, in the early stages RAMPS and DEFENSE may-and probably will rule, but in the end I think offense tube placers will dominate.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

Also. One Good Lifting bot allows to offensive bots on the same alliance. Three lifiting bots will lose everytime to that team. Whether or not defense is as effective as insinuated above, there is still a need for TWO offensive robots per alliance (or three if you count low scorers like 179 and 47). You could even have three powerhouse offensive robots with a good lifter if you have 33, 217 etc... on your team.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

I'll go out on a shorter limb and say I think that's unlikely. If you're a 2 offense, 1 defense/ramp alliance and you've let the opposition line up 4 in a row somewhere uncontested, you've already failed in your goals. A defensive minded alliance should be looking to defend, pre-emptively score and spoil every possible super-row the opposition is planning. You do realize that the max possible rows can be limited to just 3 in a row with only 6 strategically placed tubes, don't you? Scoring just those 6 tubes in 2 opposing vertical rows gives a max rack score disparity of 16-96. That's assuming the offensive alliance can score the remaining 18 spider legs uncontested and that they remain unspoiled. Note that that assumes the pure offense alliance can score at 3 times the rate of the mixed alliance. While they're being defended. Frankly, if your 3 offensive robots can score 3 times faster than my 2 offensive robots, then you DO deserve to win.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

I think that defense will be key to this game. At the Wildstang invitational the two Wildstang bots (their prototype and actual bot) had trouble scoring more than 5 rings in a match uncontested. If a team played defense on them, even with their amazing crab drive they couldn't get more than a row of 5 or 6. If an alliance has two good defensive bots they could limit the other alliance to a row of 5 and then lift up to get 60 points at the end.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

But what's stopping wildstangs alliance from getting the 60 points?

In the finals every team will have a good ramp/lift robot... It will then depend on the torroids.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

Granted defence will be a key part of this game (in my mind, anyways) I dont think you can do that. There's more than one way to get by a defensive bot, and unless your 12" drive base has a really nice drive system (holonomic or mechanum), people can outmenouver you with a more mobile one. I'm just saying that as important as defense is, I think it can be beaten.

I'm not saying a defensive bot will be useless, I'm saying that they will not be able to shut a good scorer down 100%, maybe 50% speaking conservatively.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

I disagree. 237 scored a row of 8 ringers in one match at NJ today. The next match I saw them play they were limited to what appeared to me to be one single ringer. I think defense will prove to be incredibly effective. It seems like some matches there is no defense at all and others defense is what it's all about. Those matches will strong defense have incredibly low scores. In my opinion if a team decides that they want to shut down a robot from the opposing alliance that they will accomplish that against every robot but the very best.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

That is how it has been working out.



To everyone who said defense wouldn't work,

It is no longer opinion, in this year's game; defense works really well.

Robots have a hard enough time scoring with no defense. When you add it; it is pretty much impossible.

Most teams with holonomic/omni drives are using them exactly like standard tank drives, and not taking advantage of their maneuverability.

Very few teams can score on the top rung effectively, and no teams can score effectively when defense is being run. Especially when the defensive bot is between the scorer and the rack.

It is true that the game will change over the competition period, but with the highest score I've seen being 64... I don't know how far it can evolve.


This is all observed from the VCU regional... but it can't be much different elsewhere.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

Alliance A;
Defensive bot
Defensive bot
Good lifter

Alliance B;
Offensive bot
Offensive bot
Good lifter


How does defense win this?

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

Defense doesn't. I didn't say that it would. The arguments that I don't agree with thus far haven't been about whether defense will win the game, but about whether defense as a strategy works. An example of such an argument is the "you can just score over the head of a defensive bot".This claims that defense won't work, not that it won't win the game.

My point is that while defense may not be the smartest strategy, it will always work.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

While watching the NJ webcast today, I saw just that - an offensive robot scoring successfully over a defensive robot. The offensive robot pushed the defensive robot into and underneath the lowest spiderleg, and then capped over them. The only way I can see that strategy not working is if the defensive robot has a powerful drivetrain, and if the offensive robot is attempting to score on the lowest (and possibly middle) row. Since the webcast cut off a few minutes after that match, I was unable to see it done a second time, but it certainly was done once with what appeared to be relative ease.

Edit: From watching both webcasts, the difference between NJ and VCU was quite noticeable, as there was a much greater percentage of teams at NJ who were getting scoring frequently and successfully on the rack, and the average score for each match was appeared to be quite higher.
// Me runs off to calculate average scores...

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

After coming from driving in NJ today I nearly won a match on defense alone(another robot got penalized). I defened the other alliance from even getting remotely close to the rack and it worked very well. For the most part a good defender can almost shut down a good scorer.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

The name of the game is strategy. There will be exceptional robots that can score over a defender or when a defender is pushing them around. You will need to know the strengths and weaknesses of yourself, your alliance partners and your opposing alliance partners more than ever before. While watching the VCU and seeing how this years game unfolds on day one the following was observed: When the day started, every team that had any chance at all of scoring a ringer tried to do so. As the day progressed, the good scorers were identified and teams began to defend against them, most defended very well, few robots could score with another robot pushing them around. Towards the end of the day, if you could score, the opposing alliance knew about it and defended you, then the next step in the progression happened, you had one of your alliance partners defend against the defender so that you could score. Any chance that tommorrow we will see defenders defending defenders defending a scorer? Did anyone observe any teams using the spoilers anywhere today??

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

Forget the good scorers, pick off the great scorers (if you can) and let the bad defenders have the good scorers.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

At VCU this morning, a human player threw a spoiler onto the rack. Granted, there were only ~ two tubes on the rack, and neither one was remotely close to the spoiler, but I bet that human player felt pretty smug...

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

At BAE GSR here in New Hampshire we won a match 2-0 on solid defense and a single ringer as the buzzer sounded.

I believe in the elimination rounds you'll see even stronger defense.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

Defense in autonomous has been basically rolling to the other side of the field and boxing out on the opponent. It has worked well in NJ so far.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

By getting atop their good lifter! Really, I'm amazed at the number of bots who can't get onboard. You'd think they'd thought of that. :o :(

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

Is defense Important? Yes! Will a strong defensive bot be picked high? Yes! Is it more important than having two-three strong scorers? NO!!

The defensive robot will be helpful and will often be an integral member of most alliances, but I believe that having two strong scorers greatly reduces the effect of a defensive robot. Scoring on the rack is the same as playing defense in this game, because it shuts down scoring areas and limits the points that teams can score.

The key to this game is executing a strategy that will help maximize scoring and utilize each alliance member's strengths to win.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

Indeed. Thanks for the corroboration. ;)

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

I had previously been confident that defense would be the key to this game, but it turns out that you need a little more. I crunched a few numbers to develop some power rankings, and I noticed something something interesting. The two best defensive bots this weekend, based solely on points allowed, were 1748 at VCU and 869 at NJ. 1748 allowed 2.5 points on average in 8 matches, and 869 allowed 3.1 points on average in 7 matches. Despite what appears statistically to be very stingy defense, both of these teams finished near the middle of the pack, and neither was picked for eliminations. Conversely, team 272 gave up an average of 35 in 16 matches at PNW, nearly putting them in the bottom 10% of my defensive rankings. Nonetheless, they won the regional. As always, good defense is a very powerful tool. However, it definitely doesn't guarantee anything. (Duh.)

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

That is utterly amazing. It would be even more awesome if someone was able to catch it on video.. anyone know where you can possibly find it??

I salute to that human player. :)

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

It happened several times in NJ. We also had robots ringed on their flags-including us!. 103 was ringed with 2 tubes at one point.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

Defense really helped the fast placers by taking the pressure off the bots as they tried to settle tubes into place on the swaying rack.

In one round our alliance nearly lost (4-4 tie) because of defensive robots bullying us all over the place.
The last second drop of a tube tied it up and preserved our lead in the field. But when the rack starts swaying you start praying!

WC :cool:

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

we had a ringing bot but the arm and the ramps interfered with each other;
we ended up having to take off both mechanisms and litterally run around with a13" high , 4ft/s slow, and 98 lbs light (!!!WITH THE BATTERY!!!) defensive(???) robot.

Also we were running on 2 small cims on a 4wd. basic kit bot.

this is not anywhere near an ideal defensive bot, however, any decent ringing robot virtually had half of the field to it's self when we were on their alliance because it was just so easy to play defense.

an example would be
a match where our one robot limited an alliance of 3 to only 2 ringers ( they were all decent ringing robots). While simultaneously keeping our side of the field clean for our one functional alliance partner, enabling them to score 6 ringers in a row.


a good defensive strategy can limit even the best of alliances to only a couple of ringers

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

Look at how 1444 45 829 beat 148 217 2133. With the ramp. They didnt score very many ringers, but once you get two 'bots 12" up off the ground, thats 60 points. It's like getting the 30pt penalty in 2005, one you get it the games over. I think that defence or scoring ringers wont really matter untill the championship of the championships down in Atlanta. Down in Atlanta, every alliance in the elims will have two awesome scorers and one ramp bot that can hold two. that ramp bot will not hold a ringer but play defence and shut down the other two awesome scorers. Then at the end of the match, the teams will go up onto the ramps. That will be the stradegy. Then maybe it will come down to the scorers, but as of right now, ramp bots rule all. :cool:

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

Just remember, it takes 3 to tango to get 2 @ 12. Alliance partners must be ready to ditch the rack area and ramp with a bit of time to spare. No need to cut it so close. If the alliance did its job around the rack, it successfully hung a few strategic ringers to prevent a 5-row or more, maybe even built up a 3-row for the alliance, so there's no need to score a few relatively worthless ringers when there's 60 points to be had on the ramp. There's gold in them thar hills!

This emphasizes the need for CONSTANT COMMUNICATION between alliance teams during a match! You must not only learn to talk, but to LISTEN to what others are saying as the match is progressing.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

The one thing you missed is that 217 was on their side for all of the first finals match and our arm was broken for the last 1/2 of the second finals match. The ramp didn't beat our alliance, their more robust robots beat our alliance. Each robot on their alliance did one thing well and performed their task per their strategy.

Congratulations to the 1444, 45, and 829 alliance on their great win.

By the way, look out for 148. They are a really, really fast ringer that can score through defense.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

i agree with "Dominicano0519" i drove the robot he talking about and all we had was a moving box that can push. It came in handy when setting picks and protecting ur alliances robots if the other alliance goes after them. Plus all we had to do was get in front of our opponent robot and eith push them or the ringer there are after. A defensive is real good to have on a team but it need to be real special....... "381" ALL THE WAY!!!!!!!!

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

I totally agree with this based on personally being on an alliance that made it as a 7th seed to the finals. It was the key to being able to successfully beat the 2nd and 3rd ranked teams in the playoffs.
They had awesome scoring, no question......however, very and I mean VERY few teams will be able to score 6++ ringers if one or two robots are defending you. It has been proven in 99% of the matches (i.e. not including team 25) that those teams may only score 1 or 2 at most.
Thus the ramp bot is the X-factor.

If I was in the top seed, and there were only 1 or 2 effective, reliable ramp bots (60 point max capability), i would take them over the next best ringer scorer. Top seeds may get their great second scorers in the first round of selections if they choose so, but at the lower seeding teams expense of picking the best rampbots in the second round.

When both the robots, defenders defending and the rack moves, it presents some really tough situations in trying to score. Any decent scorer can score 7+ ringers with no opposition and lots of practice.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

From my experience this year the rampbots haven't played that big of a role. Most teams with the double robot capacity take too much time to set up. At the NJ regional most teams with 2 ramps only ended up with one on top at the end. It is also not always reliable considering that ringers are getting in the way in the home zone.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

it worked well in getting us to the finals past the #2 and #3 seeded teams.:D

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

I think that defense will play a very big role in this game because the good alliances will have the robots tag-teaming from offence to defense non-stop, which should keep the other alliance from scoring...

but who really knows?

Lets ask Dean :)

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

This game goes much deeper than many think.

Every time I see another match video, I keep coming back to one thing. Not Triple Play anymore, but FIRST Frenzy! That year, you could win if you had an amazing small ball bot with a dynamic human player who could score most of their shots. 10 balls in the stationary goal at 5 points a piece was 50 points, a decent score in that game. But that wasn't the only way to win. A hanging robot for 50 points was a good shot at a win, but if the other alliance hung as well, the +50 lead is now negated. The same could be said for the 2x ball, which could easily negate up to two hanging robots, but could also be descored by the opposing alliance.

This year's game is much the same. A ramp bot can win some matches, but if they are also a defensive bot, then in the 30 seconds at the end of the match the other alliance is now relatively free to score on the rack. A tube scorer, if able to out maneuver defense, can easily negate a defense bot if they are in the upper echelon of teams, or if the entire alliance of tube scorers works together.

Ramp bots on each alliance can negate other ramp bots on the opposing alliance. If each alliance has no tubes scored from heavy defense, but each also has 2@12", then those points are well pointless, because now you have a tie. It's the same as one hanging robot from each alliance in 2004: the net point change is still 0. (A tie is still better than a loss, but it's not a win.)

What you want in this year's game is a net change of +points. Defense can do this, if your alliance has a way of accumulating points (whether through tubes or through end zone bonus'). But if your alliance cannot reliably score points in some fashion and only relies upon defense, you cannot win. The best you can do is tie.

So it actually takes offense for defense to win. Who wuddathunkit? ;)

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

i no that every time that our robot gets onto a field, we are a target because we can score so well. so wat the opposing alliance did was have all three robots against us, and our alliance partners didn't do much to help (until the emlimination rounds). thats why we were ranked 31 at vcu, because of strong defense.

and all of the ramp bots are going to look very good if the vcu trend continues.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

Something to think about. 1 awesome scorer, 1 good scorer w/defense ability, 1 rampbot w/defense. How can you stop that?

One defense bot defends the opponents tube scorers. The offensive bot puts up tubes at random to prevent large rows. The ramp bot defends the offensive bot till time to deploy the ramp. The rampbot that can quickly deploy, drops ramp and can lift both allies every time.

The ramp bot in this strategy becomes the highest scorer. How do you stop that?

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

I'd still be careful judging this game based on the week 1 and week 2 results. Art raises what is probably the most correct post so far. It's all about determining what will get you the best net score at that time. And often (if climbed properly) the bonus points for each alliance can and would negate each other, leaving the game to whoever won the rack.
Defense tends to become very lax in the last 25-30 seconds of any given game, as teams go back to deploy and climb on each other. That is where many of the best scorers quickly made up points lost to defense earlier. 25, 103, and 1302 are probably the best example of this. That alliance would typically get a few ringers up while being defended, but then they'd place 4 or 5 in the last quarter of the match as the other alliance attempted bonus points. End result? NJ Regional Champions. The same can be seen with many of my team's victories. We were unfortunate to be paired against one of the top 3 defensive teams at VCU (122) every match. They greatly hampered our scoring, but when they went back for bonus points, we'd quickly score a ringer or two, then get our own bonus points, resulting in 32-30, or 36-30 type victories.
Also, I saw several times that defensive bots got scored over at VCU.

By the opponent having 2 or 3 tube scoring machines. Especially when they can step up their offense after the ramp bot goes back to deploy and/or if they can get on their own ramp bot.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

I think it really depends on how many the second best scorer can score. If the alliance can play good defense for them while they are scoring 7/8 tubes on the rack, those points alone would be worth more than the 60 pt. bonus.

With that, if one robot in an alliance had a single ramp, then at the end of the match two could do the ramp thing while the third was still scoring to the end.

In any case, when we (2177) were allied with 148 in the practice rounds, they had a more anti-ramp strategy. The only reason they didn't win in the finals was because they were getting blocked out, but if there were robots in their alliance keeping the opposition away, the number of ringers scored would beat any 60 pt bonus from a double ramp.

Still, I don't know how many teams can score 8+ with good defense...

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

Our arm broke in attempting to score in the finals match in NJ which would have made the score from 132 to 16 in that respective row for our opponent. Had that been on, I think we would have won. In match #1, they scored all 8, we put on a spoiler and our teammate was supposed to put on a spoiler on the other side of the rack. Their arm broke also. Our 3rd partner had no arm the entire playoffs and just played defense.
For team 25 to come up to us and say it was pretty scary and that they almost lost says a lot. When spectators only look at the final score, it doesnt tell the whole story. Its what really happened until the end. This game is an exponential scoring game which can dramatically change in an instant with a spoiler. I cant confirm this, but 3 spoilers were put on the entire NJ regional. We were involved in ALL of them whether we did it or it was done to us, I think. We knew to focus on the bottom and lower rows since their alliance partners did only those rows and not the top. Now, I know the end result was that we lost, but all I'm saying is that it just depends and scores dont tell the whole story. Our strategy proved effective against the #2 and #3 seeded teams, who IMO, were awesome scorers!
My point: DEFENSE is important, STRATEGY is important, AWESOME scorers can be stopped, enough to win, and bonus point scoring is high with up to 60 points maximum. Just my opinion compared to last year's game. Team 25 is the exception that we saw, plain and simple.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

i wouldn't agree with that

look at Match one of the NJ Regional

we held them to 10 points

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

again, a rare occurence.:D

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

I have watched all of 25s elimination matches on TBA, and I was not only referring to the finals, but it did prove true again there. If you go back to score the bonus points, it leaves the spoiler you just placed open, and capable of being removed by the opposing alliance. If you stay to defend it, you're not getting the bonus points. It's a choice you have to make. Granted, 25 can't remove spoilers (to the best of my knowledge), but 103 probably could (and maybe 1302 as well).
25 is not the only exception, nor do they always rise above the defense. When a strong defensive presence was constantly against them, they could be limited to only a few ringers (look at match 1). Regardless, that is still a much better result than what you see with many other teams that have encountered defense, but it is not perfect. 148 is much of the same. They can score a few while being defended, but they can take it to another stratosphere when left alone. 148 also has the ability to play some nasty defense if needed.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

I recall team 103 coming off the ramp and playing some awesome defense to stop the hanging of that second spoiler. Besides that I just wanted to say that a ramp bot can be really important, but it all depends on how they play into the strategy. If you plan to get 2 robots up, you are going to have to leave the rack unprotected at some point and that leaves you vulnerable to spoilers and scoring by the opposing alliance. In the case of NJ finals, team 103 left the rack open to the spoiler so that they could get on the ramp. Some quick thinking got them back on the field to stop it. I think that this game is just a lot of strategy and quick thinking.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

No team is invulnerable.

Buzz was scoring everywhere during pratice matches. Of course, everyone immediately targetted them, and held them to just 12 ringers on Friday. They would go on to score just under half this amount in a single elimination match on Saturday.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

I have been doing this for 10 years. Early on (years ago) it was the real good robots that won because they were able to dominate the game. I can tell you it was less fun than it is now.

But once Dean, Woodie and Dave thought about alliances the entire picture changed. The idea is to allow teams that may not have the greatest robot a chance. Some teams who built great robots complained that it was not right. Remember one thing FIRST does not care who wins. They want you aout there trying as hard as you can all the way to the end. So in that sense it works.

Once FIRST started to supply transmissions and frames then everyone could at least move. Then things got tougher for technically better robots. Now with 3 alliances it made it even more interesting but I believe better.

Ringer, Lifter or Both
We tried to put on a lifter. We worked on it from the beginning of the build. We had it almost working in the pits at PNWR. We got to the inspections station to get weighed and were 127 lbs. We then realized her we are pretty good at ringging, jettison the lifter. This was decided by the lifter guys BTW. Our tactics changed.

The Game
We played all the prilims trying to win. You are partnered with capable and less capable robots. We were trying all different ideas because there were so many good defensive robots.

The Finals
We were very lucky to get picked up by 997. Their final pick was 1087. Our scout data showed that 997 was a good lifter. In fact it was the same design we tried. 1087 had some good rounds so we were pretty happy. In the finals teams came after us but 977 ran around in their end preventing them for putting up rings. They left 1078 alone. 1087 then used their 2 days of experience to put up ring after ring. If teams went after 1087 we put up rings. Then in the last 45-30 seconds the endgame kicked in. Everyone left us alone to go get lifted. That let us put up rings.

Lifter Design
997 the lifter was designed with a low platform. Get on it and they pick you up. Since they use pneumatics you have the entire round to get on and they can lift after the buzzer. Huge advantage.


In my opinion it was the fact the we had 2 good ringers and a good pneumatic lifter that did it. None of us dominated in any of our rounds but together it was like hurding cats. Too much going on.

The point is try to bring something to the table. Be good at what you attempt to do. Develop a plan, learn new tactics. If something does not work like pushing robots, drop it and try something else.

In the end its all good. Many thanks to 997 and 1087.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

Defense couldn't stop the number 2 alliance at L.A. They broke through with two ringer bots (one of which had ramps) and one blocker/defense bot. How to beat defense: have two robots that are about equal in scoring ability at the high end of the spectrum for the regional. One makes holes for the other to score in. Switch roles and do it again. Repeat as necessary.

Re: Is Defense key to this game?
 

I agree. Spread out the offense to limit the defenses ability to shutdown the offense.