I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

If anyone was at VCU today dave was talking about the game and how he got inspired for them, and he was talking about his years game then flashed up a picture of a steam powered paddle boat on a river. So that must mean water game!!:D;):D

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

Was that a red herring I just saw????? :p

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

Probably is I just wanted an excuse to yell water game. Although I wouldn't be surprised if there was something else about that picture that was an actual hint.

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Water + electricity= Problem.... I doubt that first would expect teams to have to seal their robots.. especially rookie teams!

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

*ears perk up* steam powered and paddle wheels are always fun to think about.

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

By this point, after all the craziness about having a water game, I wouldn't be surprised if the GDC is now seriously considering that possibility.

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

Here is the water game:
Teams 842, 1290 and Ariz State Universtity with help from Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute are hosting a FIRSTish underwater robotics competition.

http://www.h2orobots.org/

It will be webcast!. It is also an "all nighter" sunset to sunrise!

Allan

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

I honestly do not mean to "Burst" anybodys bubble but there actually is a similar program to FIRST for underwater robotics called MATE. You can click on that link to see more information on it but subdivided in mate there are two divisions, one for high school and one higher level for more college level students.

There already is a "FIRST" water game, only catch is it is not by FIRST.

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

That is never gona happen. I can assure you.

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

The MC's at St. Louis were making a big, overexaggerated deal out of doing the wave. "Wow, that was a GOOD wave, it almost looked like a FLOWING OCEAN, it looked like REAL WATER!!" etc. I'm not jumping on the "lol water game" bandwagon, I'm merely contributing my clue to those of you out there who are interested.

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

I still think there's going to be an ice game next year instead. Maybe even flying ice where we have to pick up and deposite living penguins.

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

Besides there being one too many threads about water game. I don't doubt it will happen if its been done appropriately like what Mate has. The only problem is is you get one shot at having a water game. That one shot will determine if there will be another one in years to come. I say lets all bite our tongues and try and get through this messed up Tic Tac Toe Field ooops I mean Rack and Roll. It's too early for another next years game thread based on Daves excellent photoshop skills =).

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

Talking about this?:p

Imad

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

A water game would be totally awesome, but losing your bot... how awesome would that be...

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

Imagine how much of a pain programming auton for that would be!
You have to deal with enough mechanical variance as it is; this would be just insane. However, I'd enjoy the challenge!

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

To those of you saying "Electricity + Water == Bad":
Ever seen a boat?
Some nice equipment, plus a bit of carefulness, plus circuit breakers == safe.
Besides, we're talking about 12V here, very little chance of electrocution. Waterproofing electronics can be done, IFI would just have to release a waterproof Victor and Spike (Victor would be pretty hard to do, unless they assume that it'd be underwater - think cooling). Then they'd have to provide a nice waterproof electrical box with some sort of waterproof quick disconnect system, and mandate that any self made connections are heatshrinked using hot glue-filled heat shrink. Then of course, we'd need a waterproof version of the CMUCam2, or they'd just have to go with a different sensor (SONAR, anyone?). Perhaps they could also provide a standard waterproof hull to those teams who don't trust their welding or plastic working skills. (Or rivets and caulk, or any number of solutions)

http://www.jbn-duraline.com/duraline...tors_3wire.htm
http://www.l-com.com/item.aspx?id=7348

A water game would provide endless opportunity for innovation. Think of all the different hull styles out there, all the different methods for propulsion...
Turbines, Propellers, Paddle wheels.
Standard single hulls, Catamarans, Trimarans.
Submarines, hovercrafts, hydrofoils.

Teams who are creative and innovative enough could come up with some really cool designs. Holonomic submarines (think 6 full degrees of freedom), boats capable of propelling themselves out of the water, amphibious robots.

What if they threw a curveball at us and made us all use sailboats? Only give us servo motors, and put big fans on one side of the field. That'd provide opportunity for some really neat coding.

Think of the innovative control systems teams could come up with.

Now, all that being said, do I think it's likely? Not for next year. The number of sponsors that would be required to provide the KOP equipment for a water game would be tremendous. If you start seeing more and more sponsors that also produce waterproof equipment, then you can start to worry.

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

No water game!
Maybe manipulating an object that floats in water perhaps?
Kind of like this year.

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

i think a water game would be changleing and exciteing, but water and robots don't mix. insatead of have robots on the water you pick up/ destroy targets in the water. I think that would be cool:cool:

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

It wouldn't happen becase it would cost too much.

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

One day you naysayers will eat your words!

Us "Believers" will already have our designs worked out, tested, and ready to go come the first day of build!

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

look at the paddle on the boat, does it not look like a familiar rack tipped on its side:yikes:

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

It's not as if FIRST isn't already expensive. From the FIRST Annual Report, 2006: (formatted as code so the columns line up right)
No, it's not likely to happen any time soon.

Never say never, though. FIRST definitely has the ability to attract sponsors that might be willing to help them out in making a water game. The playing fields would either be above-ground pools (Possible but risking leaks/flooding the arena floors), or public pools (Not sure they'd like us getting grease in their pools. Of course, that could be solved by rules like we already have about depositing grease on the playing field.)

This might just be me, but I think an above ground pool in each arena would be more likely. It would allow FIRST to stay at the same arenas, and public pools may not be available to rent out for a weekend. Plus, they could standardize the field, something which would be difficult in a public pool.

Let me say this again: It's not going to happen soon, but that doesn't mean it's not going to happen. It's entirely possible, with enough help from new sponsors.

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

I think these people would disagree with you.

And so would these hobbyists

So would this team at CMU who developed a robot that actually walks on water.

So would the kind folks at the MIT AUVLab

And, of course, so would the navy.

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

You think Dave mentioning it is a hint, how about listening to three members of the GDC talk about how to implement it. They were even including pumps to raise and lower the water level based on completion of a task!

Wetzel

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

That seems unlikely, as they would probably be using above ground pools anyways (FIRST isn't made of cash). The pumps would be difficult to implement in a normal pool. Definitely a cool possibility though!

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

a game de l'aqua es muy terrible!!!! FIRST could never pull it off...i mean im not doubting FIRST at all...but im just saying, it would be expensive, people would just quit....and it wouldnt work! the day i see a water game in FIRST is the day i quit life and live in a hole for the rest of my life. heck, i might as well live with the wolves!

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

I think there would be some organizations after us if we somehow popped a game piece. :D

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

Check this out!
http://www.marinetech.org/

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

You guys that say robots and water don't mix, well think of ROV, aren't they robots.

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

I'd consider it a challenge and have fun with it.
It could level the playing field a bit - teams who have spent years perfecting their transmissions would lose that edge over rookie teams.
The only way it'd be possible would be for FIRST to provide enough equipment in the KOP to make an underwater robot - waterproof seals, bearings, propellers, rudders, a waterproof hull, waterproof crimps (just in case)...

The fun part about it would be handling your robot capsizing, especially if they made us manage something above the water...

Man, FIRST could be evil with a water game.

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

It's not really a problem though if you seal the electronics before hand which would render the electroncis used now obsolete even though people have used IFI's equpiment underwater. The motor controller that the company Im interning for now has the ability to draw almost as much current as the Victor in the size of an Altoid can that has to be hermetically sealed.

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

i think i see wehre u are going with that

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

Water would be fun. Some team would develope the sonic depth charge and the opposing alliance will pop like a balloon. Water games are possible. All you who are yelling about the impracticality, give it a rest please. This are just whims of what would be cool. We are no more serious than little kids watching cartoons. Its a fantasy that would be cool.

Chris

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

LOLOLOL!!! i like the depth charge idea! i could just imagine robots getting blown out of the water as the anounce screams, "OOOO!!!! and team 7869 is blown out of the water into the crowd! looks like the blue alliance in goign to take heavy penalty points for that one! :ahh:"

I really like the idea of an Ice game. the st. louis regional is already on ice! (covered with plastic shingles of course!) it would really be a challenge! traction would be a serious need! i would be more than happy to pay to see FIRST make an Ice Game!

With pumps, i like that too! you could have your robot pump water from one part of the field to another or somethign like that.

will these happen? i certainly hope so! but in reality, it will take a few years before we have the funds to do it. think of how expensive the KOP would be!?!?!

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

maybe we have to something in water and direct it some how???? just a thought:)

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

Sonic Depth Charge?!?
In the spirit of FIRST? No.
Completely awesome? Yes.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but almost every regional was probably within 5 miles of a full sized community pool. Maybe it is possibly practical.

If you follow the pattern, next year's game is supposed to involve balls, so any water game would probably have to include balls somehow...

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

In fact, that was a hint that they are considering eliminating all the motors from the KOP and giving teams one steam engine to power everything...:ahh:

Steam Power!

Don

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

Could he have beeen talking about 2007 game, and when he meant paddelboat, he could have meant the spider, cause if you lok at the rack from the top it kinda looks like a paddle, i mean equally spaced, and same size legs.:D :D

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

when I first read this, I thought of the paddle wheel and its potential.

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

water game is completely out of the picture. It would be too hard for FIRST to make a huge movable tank, let alone fill it with water and put it in a arena / gym. Too many problems with that. and even more to think about, what happens when a robot breaks down in said water field. Tons of robots break down on ground games, everyone hits problems, you hit a problem in a water game and your robot sunk to the bottom of the tank, have fun getting it. I doubt very very very very much that there will ever be a water game. It's far too dangerous

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

Its entirely possible although he seemed to be hinting at future years... But of course Dave is well known for pointing us off his path so the GDC can blow us away next year with another amazing game.

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

this is true indeed. I'm already pumped for what next year will be!!! :D

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

NO MORE WATER:mad: . :rolleyes: Think about the paddle wheel boat he was talking about. If you tip the paddle wheel vertically, it looks like the rack, thus the inspiration for the rack! And the inner tubes were only logical as a game piece for a bunch of crazy people obsessing over a water game.

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

Maybe Dave was hinting towards a topic sort of like the hydrogen fuel cells: Alternative energy sources. I am not going to say there will never be a water game even though I dont think it is going to happen because like its been said already let people think about this stuff it wont hurt nothing. But one thing that makes me think twice about this is a thread i read before I came to this one .


This is from the thread where they are trying to come up with a alternative way to identify what alliance a team is on besides using flags.

Now if he is saying this to something as small as flags what do you think the GDC will say to waterproofing robots?

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

a water game is entirely possible, just think outside the box a bit :]. every post here except the one about the penguins has assumed that a water game must be held in a pool. what if robots had to manipulate the water? we could have squirt guns on the robots and you have to fill up a tank or something.

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

There is no way we are seeing a water game any time soon. Think of the safety issues. Electronics + water don't mix. How many teams do you think will build 100% waterproof electronics cases? at the Toronto Hobby Show a few years ago the demo pool broke open and all the water poured out.

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

Water game? Robots? Sure. see http://www.h2oRobots.org
brought to you by team 842, team 1290, Arizona State University and a few others. Quite a few FIRST teams and officers will be there.

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

Think about it- we're FIRSTers. Therefore we can do anything we think of. People have created underwater diving robots that are submersible to very high water pressures. Why can't we?

If I were in the GDC, I would trust that every team could adapt their electronics to water. Every team has capability to accomplish a given challenge. Whether we like it or not, we need to face every challenge given to us. I thought that this year was going to be a huge failure. How could any allaince possibly score more than 6 ringers in 2 minutes. And the programmers are gonna have a good ol time working with autonomous. But I was wrong. We did it. And Nats is gonna be even better. I think we have proven that we can do anything, so bring on the water.

I do not fear FIRST having a water-based game, I look forward to it.

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

It would be possible to have a water game, but only if FIRST were to include water tight materials in the Kit.

However, I think the possibility that they were only floating in water at the end was because the tube is a common water toy is far more plausible.

Water game
 

Here is a thread dedicated to any water game theories. Think as far out there as you please.

Re: Water game
 

I don't think that there will be a full water game. The cost to make and fill a field size aquarium would be astronomical. However I could see there being bonus points at the end if your robot can float in a small pool at the end of the match.
I think a challenge like that would inspire a lot of creative design.

Re: Water game
 

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ght=water+game
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ght=water+game
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ght=water+game


And there's plenty more if you search for 'water game' or take a look at any of the old game threads.

Re: Water game
 

I hope not!!! I am afraid of water!!:ahh:

Re: Water game
 

My water game theory: There WON'T be one. Ever. It's hard enough to move around the carpet, where the only time one robot can affect another's path is during contact. (In a full water game, you have currents.) As for partial water games, there still won't be one until IFI develops a waterproof control system.

Re: Water game
 

As long as the water is distilled and the robot is solute free, we should be fine to use ours as is :p

Re: Water game
 

Water game posts are getting old

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...820#post546820

Re: Water game
 

I think a lot of people are actually serious when they suggest it though.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...7&postcount=49

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

just cause I see water game I have to post. I personally think a water game would be awesome but, FIRST is too about safety to do one. AND there apparently is already a program that stemmed off of FIRST, that is a lot more expensive but you build boats and things of that manner.

Re: Water game
 

Unless I'm gravely mistaken, wax was actually invented hundreds of years ago.

Re: Water game
 

A water game WILL NOT HAPPEN. It's not what FIRST is about, there are already loads of underwater robotics competitions. A water game would seriously limit the venue either, it would have to be a pool, I can't see a huge aquarium in a stadium. Also think of the refs and field resetters, they would have to be scuba divers. FIRST is NOT an underwater robotics competition, it's as simple as that.

Re: Water game
 

That sounds like a challenge to me...

-dave

Re: Water game
 

Does a "water game" have to be underwater? There are many ways water could be used in a game without needing a pool and trained scuba divers.

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

That seems much more possible.
Maybe we could see something in which the game pieces (not necessarily penguins, that may get rather dirty) must either be removed from water or be placed in water. For example, what if rather than having the ringers placed on alliance walls, they traveled in some sort of river (if you will) from which the robots must remove the ringers from the water. Minimal waterproofing necessary.
But, with water, there still is the safety hazard. I guess we'll just have to see how this develops.

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

See, that is what I was always thinking about, my team always thought about it as a boat or river type thing. I was always thinking of it as more like carrying a bucket of water and pouring it into a container, seeing which team can fill it the most.

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

I don't think FIRST would try a water game for fear of scareing away potential rookie teams. Trying to wire a robot is hard enough for some, having to worry about water makes it almost impossible.

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I really really hope he is fooling us once again.

Re: Water game
 

We are ready!! Bring it on!!!

MATE National ROV Champions 2004, 3rd 2005, 2nd 2006

and hosting the National Underwater Robotics Challenge, NURC in AZ June 8-10

www.h2orobots.org

Re: Water game
 

Think "outside the aquarium!"

Don't be a victim of paradigm paralysis.

www.h2orobots.org

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

How can anyone deny the possibility of a water game after seeing the little cockroach-bot at championships?

Re: Water game
 

i agree a water game could mean anything form picking up an object in water,to an out of bourds area in next years game playing feild.

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

i disagree, i think frist would make it a challange for the experince teams. the rookie teams would get help form teh older ones.

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

that would be neat to see.

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I would like to see it something where maybe a bot would need to be carried across some body of water encouraging or even requiring even more interteam teamwork compared to this year. I think that having teams work together as one is what was truly successful about this years game and I hope it is something that FIRST will continue water or no water.

Re: Water game
 

ROFL

Please don't feed the GDC ;)

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

I cant help but put my two cents worth in.
never say never. "there will never be a water game" is rather narrow minded. it doesn't necessarily need a pool and scuba divers. I'm more likely to believe in either manipulating water, or a small river/tank that isn't the entire field. what if we had 'boat bots' that could float others the way we have ramp bots. or picking something out of a tank of water, without actually submersing the robot? or squirting water/picking up buckets? the possibilities are endless.
I do agree that it isn't likely for next year's game, or even the next after that. but somewhere in the distant future, the challenge looms. and I, for one, welcome it.
but penguins....that could be messy. we popped a few ringers this year trying to get our claw right....

Re: I Have Proof of a Water Game... sort of
 

I doubt the venues (especially anything with a wood floor) would like their floor to be covered in dirty (lubricants, rubber bits) water for 3 days. There would be insane amounts of spillage if you had buckets being carried or pushed.

I think the closest we will get to a water game is a game where the game pieces are very small (ping-pong ball sized), and thus approximate the flow of water. Cleaning up after such a game wouldn't be THAT hard if the field reset crew had very wide brooms.

Maybe a game where there are two game pieces: buckets and ping pong balls. In order to score, you must pass a ping-pong ball filled bucket to your human player.