Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

Hi Everyone,

Post here or respond to the poll if you think that the new scoring display should have a CLOCK and not just a progress bar.

Justin

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

Yes, I totally agree. The red numbered clock on the alliance station wall is small and difficult to see through the rack. It's hard for drive teams to determine how much time is left to go in the match. A clock on the big screen would help.

Andy B.

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

The new scoring bar does suck, if FIRST does decide to keep it atleast put a clock in the display too. it makes it easier to find the time then having to figure out the time remaining. Also I dont know if it was the lag of the webcast, but when I was watching VCU on Friday, the bar seemes to be either behind or too fast then when the actual match ended.

Change the bar to a clock

CLOCKS ALL THE WAY, ALSO THE BIG SPINNING LIGHTS FOR ROBOTS TOO, LOL:D

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

Yes, please do add a clock. Location is unimportant, so long as we know where to look.

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

it wouldnt be a bad idea to move the clocks on the driver stations to the middle of the field on top of the rack since there is already power there. it would be much easy to see for the drive teams

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

i agree. The clocks ontop of the rack would work perfect. Then the drivers wouldnt have to be looking around for the time. Its highly unlikely for FIRST to do but its a good idea.

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

I think the clock needs to be on the screen. There is a giant contraption in the middle of the field with lots of shiny metal, which makes it really hard to see the other driver station from the opposite side of the field. Even in the stands, it's hard to see with the crowd, the robots, and the rack in the way.

I think George did a nice job at NJ, periodically announcing the remaining time. :)

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

It's a nice visual but it's vauge as a guage to tell how much time is left in the match and teams that are strategy intensive (i.e. really good teams) really depend on knowing what time it is so they can plan out thier goals accordingly.

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

You all do realize that the progress bar changes color after one minute and then flashes during the last 20 seconds right?

It's a much better indicator for a quick glance than numbers IMHO.

Keep it.

If you really need a TRUE CLOCK at your events, then you should of signed up for NJ, Boston, Hartford & Atlanta where I will be. :p :p :p :rolleyes:

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

Its not so much a problem halfway through the round or even during Autonomous. Its mostly towards the end game that its the problem. A True Clock is more accuarte on how much time is left but with the progress bar, its hard to tell just how many seconds you have left when it comes down to the last seconds of the round.

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

So what if it changes color? I think it is much more useful to know exactly how much time is left without having to guess. I would rather see that there are 18 seconds left than have to process the fact that the progress bar is flashing yellow, meaning that there are no more than 20 seconds left, then try to make an estimation of what percentage of the bar is filled. Pretty, but useless. I'll take a plain old countdown clock any day.

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

I never even knew there was a clock on the alliance station wall.

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

If I had to choose between the progress bar and the clock, I would choose the latter. A clock is much better for forming an exact strategy, because then you know exactly how many seconds are left in the match.

But I have a solution that makes everyone happy. :p

As anyone who's familiar with iPods knows, they have both a progress bar and countdown clocks on the screen that are displayed when playing each song. A very similar concept can be adapted for use on the FRC scoreboard displays.

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

Elgin,
I have to agree with you, it's a great indicator.

For a 1st year scoring system, (it's a new company this year), if all teams have to complain about is having a clock vs a moving bar they've done a great job. You should be happy that the system worked so well in week one. I know its what you would expect, but it's not what has been deliverded the last few years. In the past years the scoring system still had "opportunities" past week two, three, four..... All that extra stuff that shows up on the screen this year via the scoring system is a BONUS to us all.:)

Teams you all have coaches and human players in your stations, they could place themselves to see the clock on the opposing teams wall. Also there are audiable warnings, plus generally the play-by-play announcer is also calling times remaining throughout the match.

Just one more man's opinion

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

It did? St. Louis was down for over an hour because it couldn't calculate rankings correctly. Sure, the match control went better (however, there was no automated scoring and no green light to turn on/off), so it's a step in the right direction, but not being able to calculate rankings correctly is quite literally a show-stopper defect.

Add me to the group that says there needs to be a timer on the screen. Along with that, I'd add that it would be nice to have the match number displayed on screen. This is something we've had before and I don't know why it wasn't included in the new system. It's so helpful when you pop your head out of the pits to take a look at what's going on to know which match is currently being played. Also it makes it a lot easier when reviewing recorded footage, which is what I'm doing now. Along those same lines, why are the eliminations displayed as "Match 1", "Match 2", etc? There's no way from looking at a recording of a match now to know which round (quarter's, semi's, etc) it came from, or which match it is within that round.

Two steps forward one step back I guess.

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

There was a progressive time bar? I didn't notice it on the webcast. I just thought they couldn't get the clock to work in the program.

Let me tell you, if I couldn't figure out the new system, what makes you think that normal audience people will? Bring back the clock!

I agree with Dave. I had no idea what match I was watching on the webcast, whether it was match 1 or 2, or whether it was QF or SF or F. This is a BAD thing if you're not devoting 100% concentration to the game (ex. Scrounging for parts, trying to fix your robot before your next match, etc.).

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

I looooove this idea. Brilliant!

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

I love it!

Perhaps the whole FRC competition should be run with Apple products....

Jacob

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

Wow, that is bad... I only had the opportunity to watch VCU on the webcast. Their system seemed to be working well. Matches and Standing were updating in real time to the FIRST website.

I do see where having the match numbers up on the screen would be a help. They have had that info in the past. My comments were tempered by what I saw on Saturday and what I've experienced during week 2 at the Arizona Regional the last 4 years. I can't remember a scoring system that worked properly when we received it.

Complaining about not having a clock, when there is a clock mounted at the top center of each alliance area justed seemed petty.

A vendor can only supply what why are asked to supply.

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

The problem was that there were an odd number of teams at the event. This caused teams to play as surrogates in matches at the end of the competition. The system wasn't able handle this and ended up counting these matches in the rankings.

One of the reasons that it was caught at STL was that the #1 and #2 seeded teams were surrogates in the last match. #2 ended up beating #1 in that match and the rankings changed to reflect this. #1 brought this to the attention of the regional. I have to wonder if this happened at other regionals and went unnoticed.

At VCU, I believe there were 66 teams. This divides nicely by the number of teams per match (6), and is why they shouldn't have seen this issue.

I disagree. If the drivers can't see the clock in the case of a loaded rack, it does them no good. From a spectator's point of view, the remaining time should be clearly displayed. The uneducated eye should be able to figure things out in a matter of seconds. It took me a few matches to even realize that the progress bar was there!

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

I say keep the progress bar b/c it looks cool and its different. There is a count down timer at each player station which is accurate. Why should you look up at an angle for a countdown time when all you got to do is look across. just my .02. However there is a setting on the field control system that shows the remaining time, score and ringer position and progress bar all on one screen. Its up to whoever is at the helm to choose what is seen on the viewers screen.

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

Oh, so you have x-ray vision? Remember, there is this 10+ foot tall contraption square in the middle of the field, and it would effectively block the vision, particularly when it is loaded with tubes. This is why the coaches, drive teams, etc. want a clock on the screen (which is much harder to block).

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

the only thing about drive teams using a clock shown on the main screen is that it becomes a problem at regionals in smaller venues where the screen is behind one of the alliance stations (philly, chesapeake)giving a huge advantage to that alliance. but it would work perfectly at regionals like NJ and VCU where the screen is on the side.

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

Well, I was at St. Louis as a spectator only, and from a spectator's point of view the clocks on the alliance station walls aren't good enough. First of all, if you don't know anything about FIRST, it would take you quite a while to figure out that those clocks are even there. More importantly, however, is the fact that there's quite a few places in the stands where you can't see either clock (due to the rack being in the way or any of several other obstructions).

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

I have many things to comment about when it concerns this game. a more visible clock sadly enough is not one of them b/c Teams are suppose to work in co-opertition with one another forming a dominant alliance. Very Very Very Rare does that alliance do what they say they are gonna do. Having a Visible Clock will not change a thing. Even with the extremely Audible Game sounds doesn't make the alliance do what they have to do. I have played in the FIRST Game and I have Volunteered at the FIRST Game and I have not seen anyone look at the screen to see where they stand as far as time was concerned. Heck I don't even think the teams pay attention to the scoring. They're too busy concentrating on whats going on in front of them. Now what teams should do is appoint 1 person only to keep an eye on the clock and have them run back and forth in the player station informing the alliance how much time they have left to complete the game successfully. Now if you want ask FIRST to put up more visible timers on top of the player station b/c I do agree that one on each side is not enough or better yet put the countdown timers on top of the goal. b/c my person opinion is your eyes should be on the game not looking for a clock.

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

HMMMMM, good idea but there may be a copyright to that type of thing that apple would get mad about, if they found out.:D

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

If the game had no time limit and rather "who achieves this objective first?", then I'd agree with you. This year's and every year's game is entirely based on timing your moves. For example, it is important for a ramp bot to know when they need to get back to their home zone and deploy their ramp. It is also important for the alliance partners to know how much time they need to get up on the ramp. If a team is attempting to place a ringer on the rack and they have 5 seconds left, they can time their drop/cap. I think I have provided sufficient evidence that an accurate timer is absolutely essential to this years game and FIRST should implement it into their system.

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

If you're not keeping track of the score and looking at the clock, you're a bad coach. There's a lot to keep track of in this game and knowing how much time is remaining is critical to making good decisions about strategy. That teams can be penalized for being in a certain part of the field during the last fifteen seconds ought to be reason enough to make the remaining time visible throughout the match.

I'm not sure how many other folks who've chimed in here have coached so far this season, but I can't count the number of times I looked toward the large screen to find out how much time was left. When we were assigned to the middle station, I could not see the clock at all and had to run to one end or the other the alliance station and back to see the clock.

I'd also love to be able to know how much time is left in matches that I watch on video. I'm trying to get a sense for how much time it takes partners to climb our lifts and that's difficult to do with the existing display.

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

I don't think the audience really needs to see a clock. The time-bar may even be an advantage while addressing a wide sample-audience. What I'm worried about is the drive-team.

A very easy and simple solution would be to have the field-setup crew just put the clock facing towards the opposite side of the driver station wall in the center. That way it would be facing the drivers, and absolutely not a problem for any of the teams to see.


Just a thought.

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

The general audience might not, but It's awfully helpful to the scouts to know how much time is left. If team X has a ramp, it's nice to be able to say that they set up close to 25 seconds left in the match, not "about 4/5 of the way along the progress bar"

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

I to noticed this while watching the webcasts. I don't think it is that big of a deal for the driver because there is a clock across the field that you can see.(i think or was this visible to anyone?) The audience would be the ones confused because they are looking at the progress bar.:)

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

This would be a great idea and I think that we should use it at Competitions. It will be a lot easier for the drivers so that they can see how much time that they have left.

The only problem that I can see is that if they start doing that now, then some people who have already competed might complain.

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

Part of FIRST is about progression, and if the system is found lacking and is changed, it just benefits the entire FIRST community as a whole and shouldn't be cause for complaint. Yeah, anyone would be a little miffed, but hey, you can't please everyone...

But yes, there should definately be a real clock somewhere on the big screen at least.

:]

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

Well, i doubt we'd be using the EXACT same mechanism as this Apple countdown, so i don't know if copyright would be an issue...

:]

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

if i was in the stands i would have been pretty annoyed by the bar...not even gonna lie

as a driver i was not too worked up by the clock on the fields. They were not too hard to be seen through the rack.
but.......a cluck ontop of the rack would be great!

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

My team has been doing that as long as I have been on the team. When I was an operator last year I would constantly look at the the screen to see the time, and a different perspecitve of the field.

If we've been doing, I'm pretty sure many teams do the same.

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

im not sure about a chicken, but a clock would definetly be helpful;)

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

I think the scoring display should have a true clock and state what match number it is. Like others have said, a true clock would be very helpful during endgame when you may only have a handful of seconds to climb a ramp or score a tube. It is nice to know exactly how much time you have left and not just an approximation.

My team scouts every match, and offers the data we collect to every team at the regional. For accurate data we keep track of match numbers which also allows us to see alliances. However, we switch on and off, so the same 6 people aren't always scouting. I know sometimes when I am focused on a match I forget which one I am in. It would be easier if they posted the number during the match as well as on the screen with the final scores for the match.

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

Put me down for getting the clock back. After watching the first week of regionals, I was frustrated in trying to figure out how much time was left in the matches. All I could tell was when there was less than 15 seconds left in a match which does not really help when you want to find out what to do or how long it takes a team to get up a ramp (for scouting). This also really puts a major road block for teams who use the time to decide when they should head for the ramps. In the first week there were many teams who looked like they could have gotten up the ramp if they just would have known how long was left because they would wait until the progress bar was almost out before they noticed there was like 3 seconds left when they needed 5 to get up the ramp.

I think FIRST really needs to bring the clock back.

Adapt or fail
 

I would think that the uneducated eye (walk in spectator) would figure out the time bar pretty quickly. I think it would take them longer to figure out the game.

Wetzel

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

i think it might be cool (but mabey usless,but still cool) if it was on the score board at the arena

anyway i prefer the clock because as a lot of people have said its nicer to know exactly howmutch time its left in a match instead of an estimate

Re: Adapt or fail
 

Point taken, but what I was getting at was that if FIRST wants to make this spectator friendly (which I think has been their goal at least in the past few years), they need to display the time in terms that the audience is used to. A clock is the standard way to keep time, not a progress bar. It needs to be big enough to read clearly, the font needs to be fixed width so that there is no change in width, and if the time is less than a minute it needs the prepending zero (i.e. 0:59).

The focus should be made, as you said, on figuring out the game, not trying to decipher how much time is remaining in the match.

As for the iTunes progress bar idea, I have to disagree. I think that it would clutter the already precious screen space. Keep it clean, keep it simple and you can't go wrong.

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

Too make life easier and more spectator friendly FIRST should put clocks on top of the scoring goals (The Rack for this year) and I'll settle for a redesigned Real Time Score Board with Clock, Progress Bar, Score and where the Scoring Objects are placed. That way everyone can be happy and it will still be cool looking.

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

The way the Field control system wiring is set up, this is pretty much impossible. We might be able to slide the clock to one side of the player station, but I'm not sure even that is possible

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

I hear ya. I remember assembling the field and there is a high probability all the cables reach right to where they go and no where else. But, if at all possible, some sort of clock that displays minutes and seconds would be a WONDERFUL feature to have at the LA (or any) regional. Thanks for looking into it Chris.

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

Your making this problem bigger then it is. All you need doto extend is the primary Power & Data Cables from the clock on the station to the rack. And since there's cable already dangling from the projector rack to help power the Green Lights it won't be that hard to put 2 more cables to power and relay data to the clocks on the rack. The only material you would need is 2 long cables one for power the other for data and then smaller cables to go from one clock to to the other. I don't think it would be all that hard to do.

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

If I had to make a decision, I would defiantly say to put the clock back on the screen. BUT, I like this idea because it basically will satisfy everyone with the fact that it counts both up and down and the progress bar is there.

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

i know this is probably stated... but why not FLIP the playerstation Time clock 180*... aka flipping it to show to the drive teams... We do have a coach back there for a reason ;)

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

And what happens when one of the LCD 7 segment displays are damaged from a robot? There is a reason they have always been behind the drivers station glass.

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

i am thinking he thought of on the top top near the middle where there is no right minded team to deisgn a robot's arm long and big enough to reach.

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

Thank You - There could be 3 displays in between the Green LEDs and mount them slightly higher where they can not be touched by no robot nor human and The only damage they should endure is constant vibration which we know they already can handle since these displays have been used for 8 years or more. It does not take a rocket scientist to piggy back the data off of one and let that one feed the others. The Mounting is already there and the wiring route is already there - all you need are the materials to finish the job. It may not be any good this year but something FIRST should put together for next year. Have a Time Clock on top of the Goal (If it is stationary like it has been in '04, '06 & and now in '07) out of the way from human or robot contact where they can be visible to both the competing teams and the audience. And for (explicitive deleted) and giggles you can have something built into the on-screen display that resembles a countdown timer with our new friend the progress bar.

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

I just tuned into the Las Vegas practice matches and noticed the new real-time display.
They added another bar above the time progress bar that shows the current match number and a real clock countdown.


Thank you FIRST!

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

Agreed. The clock on the far wall is far (no pun intended) too difficult to see through the madness. A clock on the screen as well as a possible clock facing each driver station ON TOP of the rack would do wonders for the drivers sanity.

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

So what happens when they turn the rack?

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

The progress bar throws the teams off!!

GET A NEW CLOCK!!!!

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

If you look up 3 posts you'll notice Ogre posted a screenshot of one of todays webcasts. On it you will notice that this week FIRST did add not only a clock to show actual time left in the match but also a match counter for the audience display.

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

I agree a clock would satisfey everyone. Anywhere really but its just better to have one. :D

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

That's extra cool! The clock is impressive (thanks for listening!), but even more so is the match number. I cannot count the number of times I've been sitting wondering what match it is, patiently waiting until the MC announces it, only to be distracted during the announcement (and miss it). :rolleyes:

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

Touche. But correct me if I am wrong, don't they only turn the rack tghe slightest bit 15-25 degrees (?) that doesn't seem like enought to impair the drivers' ability to view a clock. Good point tho, I overlooked that.

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

I'm for having the clock back. Someone said something about the new system being easier to use for the drivers because the bar tells you when you have a minute and less than 20 seconds left, but I don't think it takes more time to read a clock. Plus, if there is a clock, people in the audience can countdown :)

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

Guys not to be mean but read Ogre's post on this page...

maybe the pic should be moved to the 1st post of this thread as well...

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

The clock is still small. I'd be for making it larger and putting it so it overlaps the progress bar.

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

Not really. At the UTC Regional for several of the elimination rounds, the referees had fun with the rack and literally spun it around at least 720° (or more!) before some of the matches. :yikes:

Re: Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!
 

Im glad to see a clock is implemented although I always found using the clock on the field while coaching to work just fine.

Honestly, the biggest help this year, especially for the end of the game is the sound effects. That little roadrunner-esque noise when theres 20 seconds left, and then "initiating shutdown sequence" when theres 15. You don't need to take your eyes off the field.