Re: Update #16
 

i was just curious....did anyone get hurt using a tool in a team's mobile machine shop...aka 'non FIRST machine shop' ? during week one? maybe this is the reason for the ruling?

i say we wait for FIRST to speak on this. before taking drastic actions like not moving during the first qualifying match.

Re: Update #16
 

I don't think not moving your robots in the 1st match will prove anything. While this is a serious rule FIRST has put into affect the only wise thing to do is to contact FIRST and find out why such rule was created. By Not moving your robots you will only delay the competition and the volunteers who have worked long and hard to set the event up would be the ones to get punished. Contact FIRST through their oh so wonderful Q&A forum and see if you can drag out a reason. It's quite obvious that they did not go into detail on what can and cannot be brought to the event and only listed a few tools to start. Contact FIRST and get answers, why give the event & your team and many others bad publicity by putting on a show by not moving a robot. I would rather talk to FIRST about this and find out their intentions (if any) behind this and see if an agreement can be made with some boundaries in place. We all know that this rule was made too late into the season and with any rule being made there has to be a reason behind it. It could be Insurance purposes, Safety Issues, Parking Issues or some blind mans dream into making the life of FIRSTsters that much harder. You won't know till you ask!

Re: Update #16
 

How many of you truly believe FIRST will leave you without a way to fix your robot? I don't, but I wish they communicated the "why" when they make a ruling like this.

Re: Update #16
 

John,
Just think if you need something drilled or cut at UTC. I heard the machine shop is going to be at P and W in East Hartford. How long is that going to take on Saturday with the parade going on.

Re: Update #16
 

OK, I first want to say that my suggestion for a "no moving robot" protest is WAY out-of-bounds. I don't think OUR team would ever encourage or support this and I wouldn't suspect other teams would pass on the thrill of competition to make a statement - especially if FIRST's hand are tied...

I don't believe that FIRST would do this just to create inconvenience for the teams, there's got to be some mighty powerful force involved to do this at this time. Maybe an accident or near-miss, or paranoid venue management has driven FIRST to make an abrupt, sweeping call that has hit some teams pretty hard.

Maybe it's worth looking at this from the point of view of teams that don't plan to use drill presses or bandsaws in their pits. Maybe their robot design is such that hacksaw cuts and hand-drilled holes are all that they ever would need for even fairly substantial repairs. Maybe the rookie teams, or underfunded teams, see the teams that bring along what they consider to be a machine shop as extravagance. These teams might feel intimidated to ask to use some other teams' power tools in the other teams' workspace.

Our team has brought drill press, bandsaw, power sander, pneumatic tools (rivet guns, nibblers), etc. to many competitions. We have welcomed teams to use these - if they ask AND if we aren't scrambling to get a repair completed before our next match. I never felt very comfortable having an unknown student walk into the pit and have to decide whether the task is something that I'm really certain they could accomplish themselves - safely. I've had to ask a couple of kids to clamp the part securely in a vice before drilling (big drill bit + thin material + no vice nor clamp = laceration). To have that sort of injury occur in our pit would be devastating to both teams involved - and could lead to further problems if a parent or mentor decides that gross negligence led to the accident.

Most of our structural material in our robot is aluminum angle, channel or bar. A hacksaw can make a clean cut, although more patience is required to make the cut than if it were done with the bandsaw. A lot of our drilling can be (and is) done by hand. If the drill press was used only when precision is required, we'd probably not use it as often as we do (out of convenience).

Perhaps FIRST could establish "quick-cut or drill" service in or near the approved machine shop with power tools provided by the teams. It may be that the cutting or drilling is done only by an approved person in the shop. (I could imagine FIRST Safety evaluating a few volunteers to support this service). It's possible that by the time we're late in the FIRST season, this won't be the disaster that some of us (including me!) envision.

Play on! Life is too short to be angry about things you cannot control and FIRST competitions should remain a "happy zone" for all the participants and spectators.

Re: Update #16
 

Guns also can be safe or unsafe depending on how they are used. Just a point almost anything you use can be safe or unsafe depending on how it used.

Re: Update #16
 

I usually only post 1 reply per thread - but in light of the controversy here I apologize -
I have to say that it is unfortunate that update #16 included the elimination of some of the equipment that has been okay to bring and use in the pits in previous years events.

This has obviously upset many people, including pretty influential folks that have voluntarily provided the backbone, heart, and soul in support of the FIRST experience.

I am sure, that FIRST will address the issue - but, in the meantime - we need to be careful with how we react.

I too am upset and do not agree with the rule change in update 16, and I will continue to try and think of ways to show my unhappiness to FIRST in ways that won't disrupt the FIRST experience for ANY of the other event participants. They deserve to enjoy ONLY the very best experience possible.

Post signs in your pits, wear buttons, write here on our website, start a petition, put a sign on your robot, have a moment of silence, document your displeasure to the rule - whatever...

Whatever you do - keep in mind the impact you may have on everyone attending the event, and don't ruin their experience.

Mike Aubry
Chief Delphi

Re: Update #16
 

We're only a third-year team, and we do not have a mobile drill press or band saw or pretty much anything outside a 7/16" wrench and phillips-head screwdriver. When designing our robot, we made it such that we would do minimal machining at the competition. If the robot isn't robust enough to withstand normal gameplay, then it's not ready to compete. If some features do malfunction, we have 25 pounds worth of replacement parts. We designed it so anything we would have to change is easy to disassemble and replace.
If a team has two matches 15 minutes apart, there is no way they'd have enough time to machine new parts for the bot.
We had no way of knowing about Update 16 when we built this into our plans; we've just had the experience of having a less-than-spectacular bot and missing matches due to lengthy repairs. We knew we didn't want that to happen again.
Thus, the no-machine-shop part of Update 16 likely won't affect us much because of our foresight in our design.
That being said, I don't disagree with anything that's been stated earlier in this thread. But based on lessons learned from only two years of competition, we know better than to bring in an unfinished bot or one that will need lots of machine work to perform.
I don't think rule changes possibly affecting the outcome of matches should be made after the start of competition season. In my eyes, the biggest problem with this update is its timing.

Re: Update #16
 

After thinking this rule over for the past two days, my biggest concern over it is that they abruptly told us this right now. If this was a rule that was released on January 6th in the rule book, then I'm not sure if I would be as upset over it.

The fact is that although there are a lot of teams who do build their robots using nothing but a hacksaw and a hand drill, there are also a lot more teams who build their robot using lathes, milling machines, and CNC parts. If we knew this rule was going to be made, then it seems like teaching our students CNC/Inventor wouldn't be worth it, if all they can use to repair their robot is a hack saw.

The one thing I am really going to miss (at least until I see a clarification from FIRST) about this rule is the gracious professionalism of teams helping other teams. Odds are at a regional competition, we may bring our drill press and band saw, but another team may bring this tool, and another team that tool. You meet a lot of new people in the pits going around looking to find a certain tool, and it's a great way to spread gracious professionalism.

I'm not going to say that gracious professionalism if going to be diminished, but not being able to bring tools to share with other teams is certainly going to cut back on the number of teams asking other teams for help.

Re: Update #16
 

NICE! I love it imagine if every team at a regional showed up with a sticker on their robot very simple but very visible the red circle with the line through "Update 16". Now that would be simple and unique not only will the FIRST field staff notice this but the spectators, judges, and Safety Judges. Also Judges in the pit are apt to notice the stickers and ask what they are about at which point teams should have a clear and concise argument stating their opposition to the rule. I imagine this would get you heard and the Judges should respect your views as long as you have a well put together argument, if they don't and they penalize you for it shame on them and shame on FIRST.

-Justin

Re: Update #16
 

In the pits at the regionals, you will only have a few minutes to sell your team, your robot, your unique feature, what FIRST means to you and your team-wherever your passions are. The judges then have a whole lot of decisions to make in a short amount of time. There are many more deserving teams than awards.
Of course the judges will respect your view. But it is up to the students on your team to decide what they spend these precious minutes on.

Re: Update #16
 

I don't have the clout or abilities that some of the individuals that have posted here but I feel it necessary to make two statements regarding new rules of FIRST.

1. Few have commented about the incredibly short-sighted (no pun intended) new rule about having to bring 4 sets of safety glasses to get registered. By the time registration was going on I had to actually take the safety glasses off 3 members of my team and bring them over (along with the pair I was wearing.).. in order to register my team... Now how does this make a difference..??? Somehow someone thinks that having 4 pairs of safety glasses is enough? or important? Or it is safer to show them than to wear them?

I also remember being delayed at a FIRST competition my first year (a few ago) because I didn't have a paper clip for my waiver forms.... this individual would not allow us to register until I found a paper clip and remove the staple that held them together.....

I only mention these things because sometimes rules are NOT thought out properly and people (in good faith ... presumably) make these rules ......


2. At the Pacific Northwest Regional .. our team had a small green battery operated metal cutting bandsaw in our pit. I helped at least 5 other teams repair damage to their robots with this saw and alot of help from my team and others... it got them back on the field.. It was operated safely in every instance.....I allowed many other teams to use it ... under supervision... and in 2 cases I suggested a safe way to cut something rather than allowing another mentor to use it unsafely....

I don't like the way FIRST has moved... but I only need to remind everyone about a situation several years ago with the requirement for personal information checks for all mentors/coaches/volunteers.... with the proper counsel from FIRST mentors and coaches I believe that FIRST made the correct decision to allow schools to do this on their own...

We shall see if FIRST listens to those of us who work for free...and work because we know that we are ALL at risk of liability...
You cannot make a robot without risk... no matter where you do it...

If we want FIRST to be risk free let's just give each team a pre-made robot... preferably a small one... that has components that can be fitted together easily and safely with little risk of damage to the mechanics or students...

oops wait a minute.. we already have that...

It's called FIRST LEGO LEAGUE....

I prefer the big leagues....

Re: Update #16
 

I don't mean to be rude, or inappropriate, or offensive but...

This is like the Boy Scouts of America telling everyone that the boys can't use pocket knives.

Re: Update #16
 

Seems kinda a waste to pay money to goto a regional to sit out a round, but thats just my 2 cents. Also, that is not the first time Paul has been asked to put away those tools.

Re: Update #16
 

I honestly have no problem with the changes to what we can/cannot bring into the pits with us. I realize that many teams have used bandsaws, drill presses, etc. in the pits without issue, but I feel that it is an unnecessary hazard to do so.

Think about it: Let's say one thousand people at a regional. There are 50 10ft x 10ft areas, all adjacent to other similar areas and directly across from even more of them. There are people EVERYWHERE. They are constantly moving, occupied with a large screen a hundred yards away, full of adrenaline and excitement. Is it really a good idea to bring and use fairly large mechanical equipment designed to cut things, grind things, and make holes in things very very fast?

I just feel that teams should be, and are, able to make any adjustments or repairs with smaller, safer equipment tat doesn't take up nearly as much space. I know that 422 never takes anything larger than a drill to regionals, and we have completely revamped and repaired robots in mid competition without any major issues.

I know that many people who have posted already know a great deal more than I do, and see the situation differently, but this what I see in it. I think we can and should just go with it. FIRST likes to make competing harder and harder for us teams, and we should be used to this kind of thing by now.

Also, to quote Dave from the VCU regional this year, "We like to mess with peoples' minds." ;)